LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (06) [E]

Thu Nov 4 03:30:56 UTC 1999

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Hi, John!
>
> Thanks for the additional information above.
>
> However, this still leaves the question of  the origin of 'to muck in',
> doesn't it?

This doesn't seem very mysterious to me if you look at it from the Scots
point of view. For example, there's the well known song in Scots "The Muckin
o Geordie's Byre" where "muckin" is cleaning out, i.e. getting rid of the
muck.

This is analogous to the Scots "redd", which means "rubbish" as a noun, but
as a verb "tae redd" means "to tidy", i.e. get rid of the redd.

In English the usage is slightly different, i.e. "mucking in" in the sense
of getting your hands and everything mucky together, but the connection with
"muck" still seems clear.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

----------

From: Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
> [in reply to John Feather]
>
> Hi, John!
>
> Thanks for the additional information above.
>
> However, this still leaves the question of  the origin of 'to muck
in',
> doesn't it?

I just did what I should have done earlier -- turned to Eric Partridge's
"Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English" (wonderful work, if you don't
know it already. In two volumes, the second updating and extending the first.
Routledge & Kegan Paul 7th edn 1970)

Vol 1 has

Muck in, v.i. To share rations, sleeping quarters and certain duties;
an informal method and group, this social unit of the Army was arranged
by the men themselves and respected by N.C.O.'s; it protected and
furthered its own interests. Military (rare outside of English units):
1915+. See especially though passim Frederick Manning' "Her Privates
We", 1930; and Brophy and Partridge, "Songs and Slang of the British
Soldier, 1914-1918 (3rd ed. 1931). --2. Hence, v.t., muck in with. Francis &
Gibbons, "Soldier and Sailor Words and Phrases", 1925.

Mucker (3rd & final entry for Vol 1). A quarter-master: military:
ca. 1885-1910.
[No further details of origin given]

Vol 2 also gives

Mucker, n. --4. (4th entry added to the 3 in Vol 1) A friend, mate,
pal: Army: since ca. 1917. Ex "muck in" (with ref to page of Vol 1).

I'm not sure (from experience) whether I always trust Partridge to have
got to the bottom of a thing: his method often seems to be to trace
"origin" to early known usages, leaving open what may have come before.
But in this case it may be OK.

Anyway, if what he says is right, then the origin seems to be
definitely military and specifically Army.

This now leads me to wonder if my speculation about the similarities
between "muck in" and "mess with" has more substance than I suspected.
I can well see the lower military mind going from "Mess"-> "Muck"
without pausing for thought that "Mess" = "Missa".

However, one must not forget that the dates he gives (1915+ for "Muck
in" and ca. 1917 for "Mucker") coincide with the British soldier's intimate
acquaintance with Flanders Fields and no doubt with a few of the
inhabitants thereof from whom foreign words could well have been picked
up (compare "bint" [girl/woman, often a prostitute or similar] and
"shufti" [look/watch], for instance, both of which are pure Arabic and
were brought back from Egypt during World War I and became common in
general UK English usage; also delightful compounds like "shufti-kite"
[a reconnaisance aircraft], "shufti-bint" [a stripper, i.e. lets you
have a look] and shuftiscope [which Partridge describes as "An
instrument used by a doctor for research, in cases of dysentery"]).

So a Lowlands connection for "Mucker" etc. is not ruled out ...
Certainly the "a" of "makke" would readily become the "u" of "muck"
in Southern English. Quite where that leaves the Northern "mook"
("oo" shortish) I'm not sure.

Best wishes to all,
Ted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Date: 04-Nov-99                                       Time: 01:56:37
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