LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 23.NOV.1999 (04) [E]

Tue Nov 23 21:34:34 UTC 1999

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From: gdeutsch at estec.esa.nl
Subject:  LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 23.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

thank you, Ron for your  full explanations about Low Franconian in Germany!
Interesting, as always.
As you assumed, I of course meant the Germanic Lowlandic vernacular called
Low Prussian
(which obviously correctly can be - and thus should be - included in  'Low
Saxon', as it's direct descendant or close younger brother Plautdietsch) and
not the *virtually* extinct Baltic language (related to Lithuanian etc.).
Thank you for the for me surprising little word "virtually" in this context
and the reference you gave. I always had learned that this language is
extinct since the 18th century - like Cornish.
But obviously, again like Cornish, there seems to be a sort of re-animation
going on. Interesting, but not a Lowlands topic anymore.

kind regards,
Georg Deutsch

----------

From: Anja Meyfarth [AMeyfarth at t-online.de]
Subject:   LL-L: "Low Saxon" LOWLANDS-L, 22.NOV.1999 (03) [E]

Hi folks!

> Christian Chiarcos wrote under "Web resource":
>
>> Dear Ron, although I know that you always prefer "Low Saxon"
>> as the name of the language, but in my point of view this is
>> as wrong as "Low German":

And Ron answered him:

> _Niedersächsisch_ has also been used as one of several names used among
German
> linguists, and it used to be one of the names (_(neder)sassysch_ etc.) for
the
> language in what now belongs to
> Germany.  It is not something the people in the Netherlands have made up for

> themselves.  After
> all, it *is* the modern descendant of the Old Saxon language in the Low
> Countries.  _Sassysch_ (and variants) in particular used to be one of the
> predominant names.  Even in the 20th century Low Saxon writers in Germany
still
> referred to _sassisch_ heritage and language (e.g., _Up sassische Eer_ "On
Saxon
> Soil" whose author I forgot).

Once upon a time, in the good, old ages.... ;)

Christian further wrote:

>> "Low German" might divide the Netherland's Platt-speakers from the
>> German, but "Low Saxon" does the same with the Eastern German !

I suspect Christian was writing about Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and the dialects
of
East Prussia?

> Bear in mind that, technically speaking, "Low German" is a catch-all label
for
> varieties of what amounts to two languages in Northern Germany: the Low
Saxon
> and Low Franconian varieties that happen to fall on the German side of the
> border.  The Low Franconian varieties ought to be either lumped together
with
> Dutch or considered their own language.  They have a different ancestor (the

> same as Dutch) and are typologically different from the Saxon-derived
> varieties.  Of course, historically speaking, Dutch and Low Saxon belong to
one
> subordinate branch of languages usually referred to as "Low German," a
separate
> branch from that to which "German proper" belongs.  Thus, the label "Low
German"
> is highly ambiguous.  I hardly imagine that today's Dutch speakers would be
very
> happy if you referred to their language varieties as "German."

Well, as a student of Low Saxon i would like to comment this, Ron.

The expression "Low Saxon" is used in English texts. In German we talk about
"Niederdeutsch" ("Low German") or "Plattdeutsch". Scientifically
"Niederdeutsch" is
preferred. "Niedersächsisch" isn`t used for the Low Saxon language in general
but
for a special sub-group: "Nordniedersächsisch" (Northern Low Saxon) describes
the dialects at the Northern Sea from the Netherlands to the Danish border.
Other
dialect groups are "Westfälisch" (Westphalian in Westphalia) and "Ostfälisch"
(Eastphalian in the south of the country Low Saxon). So talking of
"Niedersächsisch"
would cause some trouble because people might think, Westphalia and Eastphalia

were excluded.

A good map over the Low Saxon dialects is to be found in:
- Jan Goossens, Areallinguistik
  in: Lexikon der Germanistischen Linguistik, Tübingen 1980, p. 446.

A map over the dialects in the Netherlands may be found in:
- A. Weijnen, Nederlandse Dialectkunde, Assen 1966, p. 191.

As far as I am informed, there has been a dialect continuum from the Dutch
dialects
to the Low Saxon dialects far in the East. And the end of the Middle Ages this

continuum faded and disappeared. I still can read Dutch quite good if I have
to,
and I am not able to learn Dutch properly because I am always talking Low
Saxon.
Even today both languages are very close.

But nevertheless most Germans don`t even realize that there are other
languages
than High German in Germany. They are afraid of a multicultural society they
are
already living in!

I hope I could clear things a little bit.

Bye,

Anja

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject:  Low Saxon

Anja wrote:

> In German we talk about
> "Niederdeutsch" ("Low German") or "Plattdeutsch". Scientifically
"Niederdeutsch" is
> preferred.

Which, of course, isn't quite so "scientific" when you consider that it is a
catch-all label for the dialects of *two* languages that happen to have the
German border west of them and ignores the varieties on the other side, as
discussed earlier.

> "Niedersächsisch" isn`t used for the Low Saxon language in general but
> for a special sub-group: "Nordniedersächsisch" (Northern Low Saxon)
describes
> the dialects at the Northern Sea from the Netherlands to the Danish border.

"Nordniedersächsisch" is also "Nordsächsisch," and usually "North Saxon"
(rather than "Northern Low Saxon") in English.

> Other
> dialect groups are "Westfälisch" (Westphalian in Westphalia) and
"Ostfälisch"
> (Eastphalian in the south of the country Low Saxon). So talking of
"Niedersächsisch"
> would cause some trouble because people might think, Westphalia and
Eastphalia
> were excluded.

In what way would this be confusing?  Because of the state of Lower Saxony
(Niedersachsen)?  Then how come the dialects of Hamborg/Hamburg, Bremen and,
most importantly, Sleswig-Holsteen/Schleswig-Holstein are included in this
group?  Are the dialects of Westphalia, Eastphalia and the eastern regions not
also descendants of the same language, Old Saxon?

> But nevertheless most Germans don`t even realize that there are other
languages
> than High German in Germany. They are afraid of a multicultural society they
are
> already living in!

Very true.  Well, then I guess it's time to wake up and start realizing that
not multiculturalism and multilingualism themselves create the dreaded
phenomena of balkanization and secession but that suppression and denial of
multiculturalism and multilingualism does frequently create them.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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