LL-L: "Phonetics" [E/S] LOWLANDS-L, 01.OCT.1999 (05)

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From: Andrew Eagle [K27 at compuserve.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Phonetics" [S]

John wrat:

>Weel, faur be it frae me ti threip fornenst the experts, but I whiles
>wonder gin some o the differs interpretit bi Johnston is actually
different
>transcribers transcriptions o the same soonds! At onie rate, maist o his
>wittins seems ti come frae LSS vol. 3, an different transcribers wis
>responsible for workin on different pairts o Shetland; an it leuks ti me
as
>gin some o thaim wis faur mair glig ti screive doun phonetic details nor
>ithers wis. On the ither haund, some o Johnston's references is til a wark
>o his ain, so maybe he kens somethin I dinna - or he's juist mair fasht wi
>phonetic detail at my dowf lugs canna hear.
<sned>

Sandy wrat:

>While oo'r on the fichery bits o phonetics, A wad say an aa that the
soonds
>oo uizually write [u] an [o] in SAMPA's for Scots better written in the
IPA
>wi a horizontal bar throu them (like the RTF "Strikeoot" effect) tae shaw
>they're central raither nor back (this is true in Lowden Scots, onyroads -
>A'd think it wis true in maist Scots, tho). Uizin the IPA seembols athoot
>the bar (i.e., juist [u] & [o]) wad be ettlin at a richt poot whan sayin
>thae soonds, like happens in French, but it's no like that in Scots.

A'm stairtin tae come tae seimlar conclusions as John anent sindrie fowk's
IPA transcreiptions.
A'm no trained in phonetics, an aa A ken is juist beuk lair A'v teached
masel.
A dout ma lugs isna the best anes for hearin sic  wee differs that some
fowk seems tae mak oot.

At the meinit A'm tyauvin awa on an update for ma wabsteid. A redaein thae
pairt anent pronunciation an spellin.
At the meinit ma descreiption o Scots pronunciation is awfu wechtit tae
Centra Scots. The kin o Scots A'm maist acquent wi.
A'v heard Central Scots fae Dundee throu Fife doon intae Lowden an athort
the central belt tae Glesgae an doon intae Ayrshire.
It aa soonds gey an seimlar tae me, Whit A notice maist is mair things lik
ma uisin 'ane' an fowk fae further sooth uisin 'yin' an the negative <na>
bein
pronounced 'nie' or 'nae'.

A'm acquent wi mair northren forms an aa sin ma fowks flittit tae Arbroath.
A'v whiles noticed masel comin oot wi 'een' for 'ane' unner local
influence.
Nae bother tae unnerstaund thon northren Scots. Certies dings doun thon
orra norrie that fowk fae sindry airts canna lift ane ithers dialects.
A think thon wis inventit bi monoglot Inglis speakers, thinkin gin an
eddicatit bodie lik thirsels canna unnerstaund onie o thae sindry dialects,
no-sae-weel eddicatit 'ordinar fowk' certies canna.

Thon wis a wee bit daunder aff the pad A wis ettlin alang. A'm nou daein an
innin tae hou tae pronounce Scots spellins (The anes A uise) fae the view
pynt o ilk dialect.
That' hou A'v been collectin phonetic transcreiptions o sae monie dialects
as A can come ower. Unfortunate like A cuidna git a copie o the LAS Vol. 3
tae come tae me. Its no in the local uni. librar an nane o the tithers'll
lat it oot as a 'distance lend'. It seems Atlas's isna lent oot. Sae ae day
A'll hae tae gang til hit.

For want o thon A gaed throu Johnston's chaipter in the Edinburgh History,
akis A kent maist o his wittin wis taen fae the LAS. Unfortunate-like he
compeart Scots dialects wi (staundart) Inglis. A'm wantin tae compear Scots
dialects tae ilk ither. His wey o clessifeein wird groups alang Inglis
lines didna help mak the darg onie mair eith.
Weel! A seem tae hae unraivelt maist o't for ma ain uiss. It juist haes tae
be eikit tae ma wabsteid.

Akis ma wabsteids airtit at 'lay-fowk' A ettle tae haud things semple. Tho
wi sic maiter A canna aye evyte phonetics an siclike. Aa A'm efter is a
'braid' transcription' that compears the pronunciation tae Inglis, Frensh
or German. Me jalousin that maist fowk that's interestit eneuch wad cuid
finnd oot whit sic pronouncins soonds like.
Nou A keep comin ower IPA seimbols A dinna ken, sae A gang gyte tryin tae
finnd oot whit thay soond like. An whan A dae its juist whit A expectit. A
differ that ma lugs wadna e'en hear. A'll be includin IPA seimbols but the
descreiption o the pronunciations is gaun tae be 'braid'. Pernicketie fowk
can tak tent tae the IPA ithers'll juist hae tae mak dae wi the ensaumples
fae Inglis, Frensh an German. Fowk that wants tae be mega-pernickitie'll
juist hae tae consult a native speaker.
Aa that A'm ettlin tae pruive (A ance said A didna think siclike wis halie
possible - John lairt me better) is that fowk fae sindrie airts can write
scots the same wey, aa thay hae tae dae is lairn hou tae pronounce it
accordin tae thair ain dialect.

That's aa for the-nou;-)

Andy

----------

From: Sandy Fleiman [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Phonetics"

> From: John M. Tait [jmtait at altavista.net]
> Subject: LL-L: "Phonetics" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 30.SEP.1999 (02)
>
> 'For the high-vowel pair /i~u/ the contrast may be chiefly
> unrounded~rounded since /u/ in some dialects is realized as a central, or
> even an advanced central, rounded vowel.' This ties in with Sandy's
> impressions of the phonetic quality of the /u/ phoneme in Central Scots.

A think this is deid richt - whan A says afore that the /u/ wisna as hie as
the /i/ it's wi me sittin thare "enoonciatin" tae try an git the phonetic
soonds insteid o talkin naitral!

> Shetlandic and some other conservative dialects. In Central Scots, this
> then merged with the /I/ phoneme in short SVLR environments (hence _bid_
> and _guid_ rhyme), and with the /e/ phoneme in long SVLR environments, so
> that _muin_ and _puir_ are pronounced [mIn] and [pe:r]. In North

A dinna agree that "bid" and "guid" rhyme - no in ma ain (Central) dialect
onywey. They rhyme guid eneuch for _poetry_, ay, but no in the sense o their
vouels bein phonetically identical. It micht seem that they rhyme, taen
theirsels, but as suin as ye hear them thegither the differ's claer: "A pit
in a guid bid" [A p3? 3n A gId b3d]. It micht be that in ma _perteeclar_
dialect Aitken's vouel tends tae tak ower fae the /I/, but A could never
soond "guid" wi Aiken's vouel, nor "pit", "in" or "bid" wi /I/. Bi /I/ A
mean a neutral-ish vouel, a bit forrit, a bittie closed. Bi /3/ (Aitken's
vouel) A mean a vouel hauf-roads atween /I/ an /E/, whare /E/ is the vouel
in the French "même".

It'd be grand tae can say that /I/ is the soond o "ui" spellins and /3/ the
sound o "i" spellins, but it disna wirk:

It's a braw bricht muinlicht nicht the nicht [?3?s A brQ br3xt m3nl3xt n3xt
D@ n3xt]

Oo says guidnicht at the fit o the stair [?u se:z gIdn3xt 3? D@ f3? 3 D@
ste:r]

Wi aa guidwill [wI Q: gIdwCl]

It wisna juist guid eneuch [?3? wIznI dZIst gId inAf]

He wisna in whan she came [?I wIznI 3n WIn SI ke:m]

A bit forrit, a bittie closed [?A b3? forI? ?A b3?I klo:zd]

A howp A'm no juist talkin a lot o redd here!

> (Similarly, although the SSE /ou/ phoneme corresponds to /u/ in Scots,
> there is also a separate /ou/ phoneme in Scots, in words like _growe_
> [grou], SSE grow [gro:].)

This shuirly isna richt? A wad say [grAu] for "growe" - "[Au]" for ony "ow"
in Scots, in fact. "[ou]" wad be mair like the southern English soondin o
"ow" in words like "grow", "go", "stone" &c.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

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