LL-L: "Kinship terms" LOWLANDS-L, 20.OCT.1999 (03) [E/F]

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From: Herman Rempel [hrempel at mb.sympatico.ca]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship terms" LOWLANDS-L, 18.OCT.1999 (05) [E]

> From: Ted Harding <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
> Subject: Is there a word for this?
>
> Folks,
>
> The following is a question I asked years ago to the LINGUIST
> list without getting any particularly good reply. It's possible,
> however, that lurking in some L-L language is an instance of
> what I'm looking for.
>
> The context is the following.
>
> There are words in any language for a variety of biological
> relationships between people, e.g. father, son, daughter,
> cousin, uncle, niece, half-sister, ... Some of these can
> be pretty weak or remote relationships.
>
> There are also words for a variety of legal and/or religious
> relationships, e.g. husband, wife, stepson, step-mother,
> sister-in-law, mother-in-law, god-child, god-parent, ...
>
> So you might think that if two people have a strong reason
> to consider themselves related, even indirectly, there would
> be a word for their relationship, especially if their situation
> is not uncommon.
>
> However, consider the following. I know of no word for it
> in English, yet (especially these days, and at various times
> and in various places also in the past, for millennia) it is
> a kind of relationship which affects many people. Also, it's far
> from being a trivial relationship. Maybe there is a word
> in some L-L language?
>
> Man A and woman B are related in that they are the biological
> parents of child C. That's it. No other presumption whatever
> about whether they're married or in any other way related.
> Not even whether they live together or regularly see each other.
>
> So, is there a word for the relationship between A and B?
>
> A is B's what? B is A's what? A and B are whats?
>
> You can invent terms like "co-parent" or whatever. I'm looking
> for "natural" terms, such as could be traditionally used in a
> community where this sort of situation is present (and it has
> never been all that uncommon). And it's surely a strong reason
> for them to consider themselves related!
>
> Any offers? In any language? Historically?
>
> Best wishes to all,
> Ted.

In the Low German Mennonites use please note the following:
father-in-law  = Schwiafoda
mother-in-law  = Schwiamutta
son-in-law     = Schwiasän
daughter-in-law= Schwiadochta
brother-in-law = Schwoaga
sister-in-law  = Schwäajasche

Herman Rempel
hrempel at mb.sympatico,ca

----------

From: Andries Onsman [A.Onsman at utas.edu.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Kinship terms" LOWLANDS-L, 18.OCT.1999 (05) [E]

To Ted Harding; re relationship terms.

The terms I use are these:  affine - a person you're relatede to by
marriage or ties other       than
marriage; consanguine - a person you're related to through blood
ties. Lately I've also been referring to fictive ties, such a god-child to
sponsor etc but I have come up with a word for an instance thereof yet. I'm
open to suggestions.

Andrys Onsman

Dr Andrys Onsman
Riawunna
Centre for Aboriginal Education
University of Tasmania

Phone  + 61.3.6226 2539
Fax  + 61.3.62262575
E-mail  A.Onsman at utas.edu.au
Website http://www.utas.edu.au/docs/riawunna/RiawunnaWebPages/Andries.html

----------

From: Gerald Tighe [gftighe2 at home.com]
Subject: Kinship Terms

> Ted Harding <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:
> Subject: Is there a word for this?

snip

> Man A and woman B are related in that they are the biological
> parents of child C. That's it. No other presumption whatever
> about whether they're married or in any other way related.
> Not even whether they live together or regularly see each other.
>
> So, is there a word for the relationship between A and B?
>
> A is B's what? B is A's what? A and B are whats?
>
> You can invent terms like "co-parent" or whatever. I'm looking
> for "natural" terms, such as could be traditionally used in a
> community where this sort of situation is present (and it has
> never been all that uncommon). And it's surely a strong reason
> for them to consider themselves related!
>
> Any offers? In any language? Historically?

It is becoming more common here (Canada, USA) to use the words 'partner',
'companion' to define the relationship between A and B. In general these
terms
are used irrespective of the marital status or gender of A and B, or wither
there is a child. The choice of which term to use seems to be at the
discretion
of the couple involved.
In obituary notices the descriptive "... and long time companion of B" is
understood to refer to a same sex relationship.
The euphemistic "Significant other" was in vogue for a while, but seems to
have
become redundant.

Personally, I grew up in Paisley very close to an unrelated family which I
and
my sisters called "Auntie, Aunt Jean and Papa. Here in Canada the daughter
and
son of very close friends address me as Uncle Gerald. In turn I speak of
them
as my niece and nephew. These courtesy titles reflect the intimacy of the
relationship between the adults.

>From watching films set in China and India,  in village life at least, older
adults are considered Aunts and Uncles to children, even when they in turn
become adults.

In Canada for tax, and legal reasons (community property), a couple living
together for longer than two years are considered to have the equivalent of
marital status. In recent years same sex couples have fought for, and won
many
marital benefits in the public, and (some parts of) the private sector.

I hope my generalizations don't offend, or contain to many errors

--
Regards

Gerald
http://artphotoprints.com
http://members1.clubphoto.com/grald15022/ArtPhotoDigital/
http://www.myslideshow.com/pubmss?ss=736

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Kinship terms

Gerald wrote:

> It is becoming more common here (Canada, USA) to use the words 'partner',
> 'companion' to define the relationship between A and B. In general these
> terms
> are used irrespective of the marital status or gender of A and B, or wither
> there is a child. The choice of which term to use seems to be at the
> discretion
> of the couple involved.
> In obituary notices the descriptive "... and long time companion of B" is
> understood to refer to a same sex relationship.

That's also my understanding, Gerald.  (And, yes, it also applies to same-sex
relationships -- both "partner" and "companion.")

However, to do full justice to Ted's question we have to incorporate cases in
which the biological parents have no social relationship with each other
(other than having a common child) and may not even know each other, may not
even have met.  This is no longer uncommon in this age of artificial
insemination (i.e., egg and sperm donation, and surrogate motherhood).  Surely
we have not come up with terms to cover this, have we?

> From watching films set in China and India,  in village life at least, older

> adults are considered Aunts and Uncles to children, even when they in turn
> become adults.

This is quite true, Gerald.  I categorize this as "honorary kinship."
However, it is by no means confined to China and India (as you probably
suspected).  I am tempted to say that this, or variants of this, applies to
the majority of the world's cultures and tends to be better preserved in
traditional-type communities (especially in village communities).  I find it
particularly pronounced among Central Asian societies, more so among the less
urban-centered cultures (e.g., among Kazakhs, Kirghiz and Mongols).  You refer
to and address all known and often even unknown people of your parents'
generation with the equivalents of "uncle" and "aunt" and people of your
grandparents' generation with the equivalents of "grandfather," "grandmother,"
"(grand-)uncle," "(grand-)aunt" or the like, and you may combine this with
their given names (usually *before* the kinship term  it in those languages).
(There were and still are no surnames in many Central Asian cultures.)  They,
in turn, will address you with the equivalents of "son," "daughter," "nephew,"
"niece," "grandson," "granddaughter," etc.  You also refer to or address
people of your own generation as "elder/younger brother" and "elder/younger
sister," usually with their names before it.  Originally this created an
atmosphere as between blood relations, with all or most of the privileges and
obligations, and it is still so in non-urban societies.  In those societies it
is difficult for a newcomer to determine who is really related and who is
not.  (I guess this is what they originally meant when they said "It takes a
whole village to raise a child.")  However, in many cases this has been
watered down by way of formalization, i.e., by way of over-use due to
obligation -- not using those terms will be perceived as stand-offish or even
outright hostile.  Thus, these terms now *must* be used.  My Uyghur and Uzbek
friends refer to and address me as _Ron aqa_ ("Elder Brother Ron").
Addressing me simply as "Ron" would be perceived as rude and as trying to
appear older and more respectful than is appropriate, because this is how an
older sibling might address a younger brother.  (This is also why they even
call me _Ron aqa_ while speaking English or Chinese.  They say it's hard for
them to just say "Ron," and they tend to address foreigners by their *full*
names.)  Even those that are somewhat older than I call me _aqa_, as a sign of
respect, because if they would refer to me as _ini_ 'younger brother' or would
use no such appellation, then our relationship would be quite different, i.e.,
they would be "senior," could give me advice, even could tell me what to do,
because relative age makes a difference in their societies.   So, I call most
of the males of approximately my own generation _aqa_ also (which between real
blood relations would of course not be possible).  In other words, honorary
kinship terminology is selective, is not a true copy of actual kinship
terminology.  It has become so much formalized in some societies that the
Turkic word for 'son' (_oghul_ etc.) now also means 'boy' or 'unmarried young
male,' and 'daughter' (_qyz_ etc.) now also means 'girl' or 'unmarried young
female.'

Traveling westward, we come across similar phenomena in traditional East
European societies.  At the very least, it is a friendly, usually not
patronizing, gesture to call elderly unrelated people _dedushka_ 'granddaddy'
and _babushka_ 'grandma' in Russian, and they may address you using variants
of 'son' and 'daughter' (if that is age-appropriate), and the equivalents
applies to other East European languages.

Returning to the Lowlands (and also Germany as a whole), we also find at least
remnants of this, and from older literature (e.g., in _Grimm's Fairy Tales_)
we know that it used to be far more common and widespread than it is now.  It
is what our friends on the British Isles might call "very Continental."  (But
I also know of such cases in England, such as "Auntie Mable" in a South London
suburb who turned out to be someone's mother's friend.)  Thus, for instance,
Ms. Clara Kramer-Freudenthal is to me what in German is known as _Nenntante_
"aunt in name."  I address her as 'aunt' (_Tant Clara_), and she addresses me
using my first name (the German one).  This creates a closer bond, i.e., is an
expression of affection and a symbol of a higher degree of intimacy.  This is
an adult-age continuation of what we did as children: referring to unrelated
acquaintances older than us as "uncle" and "aunt," using their surnames if
they were still more distant (e.g., _Tante Möller_ "Aunt Miller" [not to be
confused with _Tante Meyer_ which means 'bathroom,' 'toilet' now ...]) and
using their first names if the relationship is closer (e.g., _Tante Grete_
"Aunt Maggie").  The interesting thing perhaps is that Ms. Kramer-Freudenthal
and I converse in Low Saxon (Low German), and I say _Tant Clara_.  _Tant_, of
course, is a French loan (< _tante_).  I am using the *German* construction
(even though I say _Tant_ instead of _Tante_).  In Low Saxon I would probably
refer to her as _Clara-Tant_, but that sounds more as though she is a true
aunt, the traditional _Clara-Möösch_ even more so.  Occasionally, I address
her as _mien Clara-Tant_ meaning 'you', as an expression of affection!  (I
guess it's similar to saying to your aunt or aunt-in-name, "And how is my
favorite auntie today?")

Psst!  Talking of such, folks, it's going to be eightieth birthday of the
sweet lady in question (<101477.2611 at compuserve.com>,
<http://www.geocities.com/~sassisch/rhahn/kramer/>) on November 3!

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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