LL-L: "Multilingualism" LOWLANDS-L, 29.OCT.1999 (03) [E]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.1999 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Multilingualism

Thanks for all the interesting replies to my questions.

I still have a problem with the English/German/French issue. I think the
answer may depend on what level of language achievement one is talking
about. Elementary French is quite alien to English speakers - especially
schoolchildren who don't (yet) have a great command of our "Latin"
vocabulary. I looked at a list of French words for parts of the body and
found that only 7 out of 73 were recognisable (and one of those was
"moustache"!). It must help a German learner that French has the same number
of "persons", that nouns and adjectives "agree" (sometimes), and that two
different (and equivalent) verbs are used for the perfect tense: vocabulary
isn't everything Once one has got through this first phase there are a lot
of Latinate terms in French which an English speaker can understand, so
perhaps progress speeds up, though of course active use presents some
problems faced by a German, say, learning Dutch: one may imagine that a word
is French when it isn't, or be fooled by those faux amis. I have never
learned any language to a high level (preferring quantity to quality) so to
go beyond this is speculation.

The point about learners having difficulty in getting native speakers to
correct them struck a chord with me. It doesn't just apply to minority
languages. I once worked with a Dutch woman who was working as a secretary
to improve her English so that she could teach it better. Her fellow
secretaries were no help with her difficulties because they always told her
that she was right. I was the only person who would tell her she was wrong!

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Multilingualism

Dear John,

You wrote above:

> The point about learners having difficulty in getting native speakers to
> correct them struck a chord with me. It doesn't just apply to minority
> languages. I once worked with a Dutch woman who was working as a secretary
> to improve her English so that she could teach it better. Her fellow
> secretaries were no help with her difficulties because they always told her
> that she was right. I was the only person who would tell her she was wrong!

Aha!  Let's backtrack to what I said earlier:

> I have encountered another type, perhaps the most difficult one to deal
with.
> There are three variants of this one:
>
> (1) Speakers of real or perceived minority languages who are used to having
to
> learn other languages and are not used to outsiders learning theirs.

It's somewhat understated, but one of the crucial words there is "perceived."
In "perceived minority languages" I include also languages that, although
being prestige and power languages in their own areas or countries, are
perceived by their speakers as being "minor" in the greater scheme of things,
for instance internationally.

In my experience and in the shared experience of other people on this list,
Dutch is one of the classic examples of this.  Netherlanders--and I'm leaving
Dutch-speaking Belgians out for now--are known to be conversant in at least
one foreign language but oftentimes in more, typically in English, French and
German.  At the same time, they are notoriously uncooperative when it comes to
helping outsiders learn *their* language, especially if they themselves know
the learner's language or a language in which the learner is more proficient
than in Dutch.  Now, I don't for a second think that they are uncooperative
because they are mean, unhelpful people.  On the contrary!  They try to be
kind and considerate, hospitable, wanting to adapt to *you* rather than
expecting you to adapt to them.  Undoubtedly this is because they consider
their own language to be internationally relatively unimportant, not something
foreigners want to bother about unless they plan to permanently live in the
Netherlands (and even then it may be a struggle).  Of course they feel
thrilled and flattered, though bewildered, that you do want to bother about
their "little" _taaltje_, but I guess this gets overridden very easily.  Of
course all this is a generalization.  In my own circle of acquaintances,
especially on Lowlands-L, there are Netherlanders and Belgians who are more
than helpful with Dutch, but they may be somewhat unusual because of their
awareness of and interest in Dutch and related issues.

I have similar experiences with Danish and Finnish.  I only got my Danish host
family to use Danish only after I had sat them down together and told them how
important it was to me, and I apologized about the effort I was expecting them
to make.  It worked wonderfully after that.  The most persuasive argument may
have been that I loved Danish and really, really wanted to learn it better.
They found it flattering, and it gave them the excuse to accommodate a
well-meaning weirdo according to *his* wishes.  It also increased affection
toward me.  An added element in the case of Finnish (and people tell me the
same about Estonian and Hungarian) is that it is not Indo-European but Uralic
and has what is perceived as an "exotic," complicated structure (and strict
distinctions between short and long vowels *and* consonants, unrelated to
stress, is an initial hurdle for us Germanic speakers).  So the speakers,
themselves being proficient in at least two foreign languages, have it in
their heads that it is far too hard for foreigners to learn.  (However, they
tend to be very appreciative if you do learn even a bit.)

Anyway, John, perhaps this explains it a bit better.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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