LL-L: "Logic" [E] LOWLANDS-L, 20.SEP.1999 (02)

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From: Gerald Tighe [gftighe2 at home.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Logic" (was "Double negative") [E] LOWLANDS-L,19.SEP.1999(01)

Hi Folk:

>  Sandy Fleming [sadny at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: "Logic" wrote:

snip

> I think it's potentially enlightening to ask why "nonsense" language such as
> that written by Lewis Carroll and Edward Lear is so much harder to translate
> than "sensible" stuff. The first verse of a poem from "Through the Looking
> Glass":
>
> JABBERWOCKY
>
> 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
> Did gyre and gimble in the wabe,
> All mimsy were the borogoves
> And the mome raths outgrabe.
>
> and my rough attempt at translating it into Scots (bits that I can't get
> right at all are in brackets, and this is a lot easier in Scots, since the
> two languages are close enough for some words to go straight across):
>
> YAMMERWOCHIE
>
> 'Twis hoytri[g] an the [sclithy] t[o]ves
> Did gyre an [wimmle] in the wy[b]e
> Aa [mim]sy wis the boragoves
> An the [r]ame raths oot[grybe].

I can't disagree with the translation, but I do question the need, or value.

JABBERWOCKY

['Twas] brillig, [and the] slithy toves
[Did] gyre [and] gimble [in the] wabe,
[All] mimsy [were the] borogoves
[And the] mome raths outgrabe.

Is a translation that addresses more than 'my' bracketed words not
bowdlerization? What is gained by translating one "'nonsense' language" into an
other? Lewis Carroll, like all diligent writers, surly constructed/chose those
particular non-sense words with care (For their sound, for their look?).
To translate these truly original parts is a greater loss to veracity than the
translation of one to an other recognised language.

This reminds me of the introductory class of a French course.
Within seconds I became Gerrard, born in Ecosse. Had I been Pierre studying
English in France, would I have as quickly become Peter from
Frenchland?

Regards

Gerald             http://artphotoprints.com

----------

From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Logic

It seems to me that Sandy's recent contribution confused the inherent logic
of language with the rational behaviour of language users. To illustrate the
difference with an analogy, domestic electricity in the USA is 60 Hz, 120 V
while in the UK it is 50 Hz, 230 V (or thereabouts). There is no logical
reason for these differences (and the latter has just changed, which is why
I'm not sure what the figure is), but an electrical or electronic engineer
has to work within the appropriate system.

There are obviously innumerable examples of different grammatical structures
being used to express identical concepts. How about "een fles bier" in
Dutch, "a bottle of beer" in English and "a beer bottle" in Indian English?
How can one argue that any of these is "logical" (and the rest are therefore
"illogical")?

John Feather
johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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