LL-L: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L, 09.AUG.2000 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.AUG.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Historical linguistics" LOWLANDS-L,

Roger Thijs wrote:

> Dzj is pronounced as d + zj, zj standing for the j
> in the French as in e.g. > Jean, Janvier
>
> In walloon the spelling for the same sound is Dj
> (without the z)

Old French may shed a little light on dzj:  Old French
presumably pronounced <ch> and soft <j, g> just like
Italian's <ci> and soft <gi>, thus English “George”
reflects earlier French pronunciation.  French later
shifted /tS/ to /S/ but kept the <ch> spelling, as in
<chance>, likewise it shifted /dZ/ to /Z/, as in
<Georges>.

> I have been checking in some Limburgish literature,
> and not all write the initial d in their spelling.
It's not a real full d
> but rather an "explosion" initiating the zj.

A full [d] is a dental or alveolar stop (a consonant
in which the tongue stops the flow of air for a
moment):  the tongue strikes the teeth (Romance
languages) or the alveolar ridge behind the teeth
(Germanic languages), whereas your description of
<dzj> sounds like a palatal stop: say “y” (e.g. Engl.
yes, German ja) and press your tongue against the
palate there.
I hadn't realized that Walloon and Flemish (how much
of Flemish?) had this feature, but Walloon has
apparently kept the old pronunciation, which Flemish
has adopted.  That's a common phenomenon when two
languages interact.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

= ==============
Henry Pijffers wrote:

> [Stefan] wrote a very interesting message about
> historical linguistics.
> But I have a few questions about it:
>
> >Celtic.  Examples:  Saxones from _sahs_
> "short-sword",
> >thus "The Swordmen".
> >
> I have heared otherwise, that "sax" meant "stone
> knife".

We're both right, very conveniently:  Latin _saxum_
meant “stone”, and the Grimms realized that _sahs_
must have gone from meaning stone to stone knife to
knife.

> >   = no brightening of a to ae/e:  dat vs. Old
> > Frisian thet and Old English thaet.  Old Saxon
brightened
> > a, but soon restored it to [a] under High German
(and
> > Frankish/Dutch?) influence.
> >
> Are you sure about that? Because in my dialect we
> still brighten it to "daet" / "det". Untill a few
centuries ago, my
> area has largely been a swamp area I believe, with
only one treadable
> path and also bordered by a river which could only
be waded
> through in one spot, so there was hardly any
migration or influence.

Henry, what region do you come from?  Coastal NL?
That could easily be traces of earlier Frisian; west
of the Zuider Zee, in the Saxon dialects, that could
be traces of the original Old Saxon.  If you're from
an inland Frankish area--  I don't believe there's
much evidence for a > ae for Old Dutch, but even then,
some parts of Old Dutch territory could have borrowed
this innovation some 15 centuries ago.
So my answer is: I don't think Old Dutch itself
(excluding what was then Frisian and Old Saxon)
brightened a to ae, but I couldn't rule out that some
regions or social groups never did.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

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