LL-L: "Names" LOWLANDS-L, 14.AUG.2000 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 14.AUG.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Names" LOWLANDS-L, 14.AUG.2000 (02) [E]

Ron hef schreven:
>
>The same may be said of "Britain" and "Netherlands" for
>they cover several ethnicities each.  However, while the adjective for
>"Britain" is equally general "British", "Netherlands" only has the
>adjective "Dutch", which some people understand as referring only to the
>Hollandic ethnicity.  Obviously, something like "Netherlandic" is called
for.
>
Call me stupid, but doesn't Dutch refer to *all* the people of the
Netherlands
then? I don't have problems being called "Dutch", only with the country
beging
named "Holland" and me being named "Hollander". "Netherlander" (or
"Saxon" in my case) would be nice though.

grooten,
Henry

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From: Floor van Lamoen [f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Names" LOWLANDS-L, 14.AUG.2000 (02) [E]

Dear Reinhard,

> In the case of most European countries this cannot be done.  When I know
> that someone is a citizen of Germany but is ethnically not German I
> acknowledge this, context permitting, by saying things like _an
ethnically
> Danish German citizen_, _a Frisian from Germany_, _a German Rom_ or _a
> German of Sorbian ethnicity_, _a German of Turkish background_ (if I know

> that this Turkish person has German citizenship).  I use plain "German"
> only if "nationality" or "citizenship" is clearly implied.  I have asked
> some Frisians, Sorbs and Turks from Germany about this, and they agreed
> that this was the preferred way.

There is something double in this. I know that sometimes people of, for
instance, Turkish background are sometimes glad to be called "Dutch" or
"Nederlanders", or "German" in Germany. The addition "of Turkish
background" (which certainly is one of the better alternatives) is also
felt by some people as a stigma. A lot of Turkish people want to be part
of our society - gladly they quite successfully do so - and it doesn't
help if all people give them a title that stresses that they are
different. Of course this doesn't say that these people are not proud of
their Turkish background! Yes, you may call them Turkish! But if their
position in our country is described, my experience is that sometimes
these people want to hear that they're part of us.

But, most important, c'est la ton, qui fait la musique.

Kind regards,
Floor van Lamoen.

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names

Dear Floor,

I hope you didn't seriously think that "German of Turkish background" would
be my first description of a person.  (1) I'm a little more tactful than
that, and (2) those attributes would not be the foremost in my mind.
Naturally I meant that this would be a description *within in given
context*, e.g., when writing a biosketch of a German writer or activist who
deals with Turkish topics in Germany.

I certainly have never seen anything negative about people being Turkish.
On the contrary.  I greatly admire Turkish and Turkic cultures and am
proficient in Turkish, Uzbek, Uyghur and Kazakh, with passive proficiency
in others (e.g., Tatar).  While ethnicity is not the foremost thing in my
mind and I would be the last to talk about "the Turks" like so many people
in Germany unfortunately do, I don't see why I should pussyfoot around, not
mentioning that someone is a Turkish German, just because of other people's
racist sentiments.  Why should I buy into the stigmatizing when to me being
Turkish is anything but negative and a stigma?  In fact, people who
pussyfoot around about it make me suspicious about their true sentiments.

When meeting a person of Turkish descent, I would also first wait to find
out if they consider themselves ethnically German or Turkish, or both.
Besides, I don't talk about it to strangers in the street, only to
acquaintances who know what my views and interests are.

I hope that cleared this up.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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