LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 15.AUG.2000 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 15.AUG.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: Standardization

Sandy's message about names on maps reminded me that I was involved in a
production of Brian Friel's play "Translations" at the Tower Theatre
Islington about 18 months ago. Another company I work with is doing it next
season. It's a school examination text and so highly profitable for amateur
companies!
The play is about (among other things) the production of a map of Ireland in
the 19th century, and "translations" relates (among other things) to the
rendering of Irish place-names in English. There are other aspects which
might interest linguists.

John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 14.AUG.2000 (06) [E/S]

Ron hef schreven:
>
>> I know, and there are probably more distinctions like that to be made. I'm
>> not saying they're all different phonemes, but as I'm not an expert, I can only
>> distinguish sounds, not phonemes. However, I do think I may have 1 or 2
>> additional phonemes in my dialect.
>
>Yeah, this *is* getting messy isn't it?  (I hear John Feather say, "I told
>you so." ...)  Maybe it's time to start considering putting sound files of
>a small number of well-chosen words in your dialect and general Northern
>Low Saxon of Germany on the web somewhere and have our expert panel mull
>them over.
>
That's the point I tried to make earlier. We can describe all we want here,
but
never will we really understand how the other pronounces things. Sound files
take away the written barrier, because they just put it like it is.

>> A few more just came to mind:
>>
>> froo/vroo (early) (17)
>
>With umlauting: _froy_ (_frö(h)_ ~ _freu(h)_) [fr{oe}.Y] ~ [frO.I] with the
>same diphthong as in _droym(en)_ above.
>
Maybe we've got some words mixed up here. We also have a word one
could write as "froy", as in "froy froo" (pretty early/aardig vroeg).

>> stool (chair) (17)
>
>_Stoul_ (_Stool_ ~ _Stohl_ ~ _Stauhl_) [sto.Ul] ~ [steoUl] ~ [sta.Ul].
>Same as in _droum_ above.
>
Looks to me like we have a rather consistent difference here.
One other thing though. The plural of "book" is umlauted, to
become "bööke" or something, same goes for "stool", which
becomes "stööle", yet I wouldn't know the plural of "koo", cause
for some reason I always said "koeien" (Dutch), while I knew it
was wrong. Wat is the plural of "koo" in your dialect? I figure it
would either be "köö" or "koos". The former would be consistent,
but the latter sounds better in my ear.

grooten,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names

Henry:

> >> froo/vroo (early) (17)
> >
> >With umlauting: _froy_ (_frö(h)_ ~ _freu(h)_) [fr{oe}.Y] ~ [frO.I] with > the
> >same diphthong as in _droym(en)_ above.
> >
> Maybe we've got some words mixed up here. We also have a word one
> could write as "froy", as in "froy froo" (pretty early/aardig vroeg).

I don't really think so.  I should have mentioned that non-umlauted _frou_
'early' occurs in some dialects in Germany also, assumedly the farwestern
ones.  What this _froy frou_ of yours is, I do not know.  Perhaps some kind of
"joke" putting two dialect variants together?

> >> stool (chair) (17)
> >
> >_Stoul_ (_Stool_ ~ _Stohl_ ~ _Stauhl_) [sto.Ul] ~ [steoUl] ~ [sta.Ul].
> >Same as in _droum_ above.
> >
> Looks to me like we have a rather consistent difference here.
> One other thing though. The plural of "book" is umlauted, to
> become "bööke" or something, same goes for "stool", which
> becomes "stööle", yet I wouldn't know the plural of "koo", cause
> for some reason I always said "koeien" (Dutch), while I knew it
> was wrong. Wat is the plural of "koo" in your dialect? I figure it
> would either be "köö" or "koos". The former would be consistent,
> but the latter sounds better in my ear.

Here:

chair: _stoul_ (_Stool_ ~ _Stohl_ ~ _Stauhl_) [sto.Ul] ~ [steoUl] ~ [sta.Ul]
chairs: _stoyl(s)_ (_Stööl(s)_ ~ _Stöhl(s)_ ~ _Steuhl(s)_) [st{oe}.Yl(s)] ~
[stO.Il(s)]

(I don't know if the plural form _stoyle_ occurs.)

book: _bouk_ (_Book_ ~ _Bauk_) [bo.Uk] ~ [ba.Uk]
books:  _boyker_ (_Böker_ ~ _Beuker_) ['b{oe}.YkA] ~ ['bOIkA]

cow: _kou_ (_Koh_ ~ _Kauh_) [ko.U] ~ [ka.U]
cows: _koy_ (_Köh_ ~ _Keuh_) [k{oe}.Y] ~ [ko.I] ~ _kay_ (_Keih_) [ka.I] ~
_koyg'_ (_Köög_ ~ _Köhg_) [k{oe}.YG] ~ [k{oe}.Yj]

(I don't know if the plural form _koye_ and/or _koyge_ occurs in any _-e_-type
dialect, but I expect so.)

It looks as though there is a remnant of an old _-g_ showing through in the
plural form in some dialects.  Or has it been inserted?  Cf. Middle English
_cou_ < Old English _cû_ 'cow'.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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