LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 31.AUG.2000 (08) [S]

Thu Aug 31 23:53:12 UTC 2000

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 31.AUG.2000 (04) [S]

> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
> Subject: "Standardization"
>
> > From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
> > Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 30.AUG.2000 (01) [S]
> >
> > Whit dis awbodie think aboot this idea: tae keep "-ie" as a merker
> > for endins that's liable tae vouel harmony, an tae yuise "y" for
> > whan it's jist a fixt soond at the end o a wird, lik in "bonny"
> > or "harmony". There's three o thon endins that's liable tae vouel
> > harmony, an here's whit "Stertin Oot in Scots" says aboot it:
> >
> > In some varieties of Scots, a phenomenon known as "vowel harmony"
> occurs.
> > Specifically, the vowels in
> > a.      the negative particle -na;
> > b.      the diminutive particle -ie;
> > c.      the ending -tie in numbers such as ninetie; and
> > d.      the adverbial particle -lie
>
> Whan A first read this A thocht we'd be better aff juist forgettin
> it seein there wad be nae wey ti lairn it ti fowk fae ither airts.
> But A'v been thinkin on what the raesons ahint thae particlar endins
> causin vowel harmony micht be, an A think ye micht be on ti something
> here efter aa. Could it be that vowel harmony occurs whan the endin
> is a separate morpheme fae the ruit? If that wad be richt, folk that
> disna hae vowel harmony in their dialeck could still be lairnt hou
> ti git the spellin richt.
>
> It dis seem ti explain a few things aboot traditional Scots writin -
> tryin ti type in thon beuks an uisin -ie juist for diminutives, A'v
> been chaingin spellins like "couthie" inti "couthy". Efter a while a
> body starts ti git a feelin for what wirds the Victorian &c writers
> wis happy ti write wi a -y, an what anes they vernear aye wrate wi
> -ie. The diminutives is maistly -ie - sheepie, hoosie (but an aa,
> "corbie"!), an maist no-diminutives seems ti be -y - canny, bonny &c.
> Houever, the ar that parcel o wirds that disna fit - "couthie" bein
> the maist exemplary - could it be that the aulder writers wrate -ie
> whan it wis in a morpheme o its ain (couth+ie)? A wonder if the differ
> wis important ti langsyne writers for that this kin o vowel harmony
> wis there in their dialecks?
>
> As for the exceptions - like "corbie" - A wonder if this wis juist
> perceived as a diminutive, wi the thing bein a wee birdie, efter aa?
> An altho "bonny" is fae the French "bon", the'r nae ruit "bon" in the
> Scots langage that wad gar the wird be taen as twa morphemes (similar
> ti hou "corbeau" should strickly be "corby", but the French origins
> wis, A dout, naither kent nor relevant).
>
> Onywey, A wonder if ye could hae a think on this as fornenst the vowel
> harmony in yer ain dialeck, Colin, an see hou weel it seems ti fit?
> For ma pairt, A'll keep a ee oot for things pro an con the idea the
> time A'm typin in thae auld beuks.
>
A wad certies be interestit in onie new insichts that micht come fae sic
obervins.

> > From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
> > monie a publisher drappit letters for thon verra raison. Less wirk...

> A didna ken that, but bi certy A ken hou they felt! Come on an lat
> us tak "streamlining" as a orthographic principle!
>
A dinna think thare's ocht wrang in taen 'streamlinin' as a preenciple

> > At the end o the day maist fowk seemt tae want tae use -ie an A gaed
> alang
>
> A wonder wha "maist fowk" wis in your case, Andy? Wis this maist
> fowk on the comittee, ie enthusiasts, or wis it onything like ma
> sample, ie fowk that's juist readin Scots because A'v shoved ane
> o ma beuks or manuscrips at them? If this is the case, A'd say ma
> sample is _faur_ mair representative!
>
A wad an aa. Whit the spellin Comatee come up wi wisna mynt tae be the say
aa an end aa o onie further debate.
A wis aye o the opeenion that aa that we come up wi shoud gang back tae a
braider public for consultation, sae that fowk like yersel coud pit ower sic
mensefu airgiements as ye hiv been daein. Unfortunite-like till nou, nocht
haes come o that.
Thon way, oniething we hadna thocht on coud be chowed ower again. Howpfully
in the end, bi a process o attrition, comein up wi a braid consensus foundit
on weel thocht analysis.

> > soond in aa words or forms o words unique til or characteristic o
> Scots,
> > includin verbs (cairie), nouns (mannie) [Is thon no a diminutive
> noun? Ma
> > comment!], adjectives (bonnie) an adverbs (aefauldlie)...
>
> This idea o sayin "wirds unique til or characteristic o Scots" ti
> me seems ti hae nae place in a guid spellin system. A dout naebody
> here needs me ti explain this (an as Ron says in the aforehaun
> airticle in this threid, "consistency is preferable"). We'll see
> what Colin says aboot the idea o vowel harmony bein governed bi
> morphology.

That's ane one the raisons A gaed hale hog for -ie, (The ither chyce wis o
course aye - y)
A'm aye ettlin tae finnd 'rules' ahint whit monie in the bygane seems tae
hae duin naitral-like.
A ken this canna aye be duin, but a think it wad lessen the amoont o
'idiosyncratic' variation that's aft seen.
A'v mebbies juist spent ower lang analysin phonology an wirdleets an no
eneuch time analysin wrutten texts o the kin that you're nou pittin up on
Scots text.
Tho o course saftweir that coud collect a the wirds fae texts that hae's -y
or -ie wad be o immence help. See whit varians o sindrie wirds kythes the
maist.
Mibbie somebodie mair cliver nor me will shaw's the licht.

Andy

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