LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 30.DEC.2000 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Vermeulen [vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 30.DEC.2000 (01) [D/E]

Wederantwoord van Frans Vermeulen:

> Van: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Beantwoord: Discussion list for Germanic Lowlands languages and cultures
> <LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
> Datum: Sat, 30 Dec 2000 12:57:25 -0800
> Aan: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
> Onderwerp: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 30.DEC.2000 (01) [D/E]

> From: john feather [johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk]
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Frans Vermeulen wrote, referring to "maat" ( or "mat" or "maet"):
>
>> zelfs in de geromaniseerde woordconstructies kan men er niet
> onderuit: mathematisch, materie, enz.. <
>
> Just to save everybody else the trouble of looking these words up in an
> etymological dictionary, the first "mat(h)" in "mathematics" is from a
root
>
> meaning something like E. "mind" (which retains the "n" lost in some
forms
> of the root in Greek) and the second "mat" arises coincidentally from the

> addition of a genitive ending to "mathema". "Materie" (E. "material")
> ultimately derives from L. "mater" ("mother") - the source of something.

Volgens de traditionele etymologie heb je natuurlijk gelijk voor wat de
woorden "Mathematisch" en "Materie" betreft, en heb ik ongelijk deze
etymologische uitleg in vraag te stellen zolang mijn boek niet is
gepubliceerd, dat deze traditionele etymologie in vraag stelt door een
andere benadering op basis van de stelling dat taal exacte wetenschap is
met
een overeenkomstige bewijsvoering en, om terug te grijpen naar de
traditionele methode, aangevuld met talrijke vergelijkingen als onnodige
toemaat.

Voorlopig erkenning mijn ongelijk en verontschuldig ik mij daarvoor,

met beste groeten,

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

The _Herkunftsduden_ implies that German _Maat_ in the sense of  '(ship's)
mate' is derived from Middle Low Saxon (Middle Low German) _mate_ (>
English _mate_).  German relatives of this word are Middle High German
_ge-maZZe_ and Old High German _gi-maZZo_ 'person who eats at the same
table'.  As such, it goes back to (Germanic?) *_mat(i)_ 'food', 'meal'.

Cf., North Germanic for 'food', 'meal': Old Norse _matr_ > Icelandic
_matur_, Swedish, Norwegian _mat_, Danish _mad_

Cf., West Germanic: English _meat_ (< OE _mete_), Old Saxon _meti_ ~ _mat_,
also English _mete_ (= 'apportion', 'allot'); Low Saxon _Mett(wust)_, Dutch
_met(worst)_ 'ground pork (sausage)'; German _Messer_, Low Saxon _Mess_,
Dutch _mes_, Old English _meteseax_ (< _mete+seax_ "food-cutting
short-sword") 'knife' (cf. Old English _seax_, Old Saxon _sahs_
'short-sword' > Old English _Seaxa(n)_, Old Saxon _Sahso_ 'Saxon').

Cf., East Germanic: Gothic _mats_ 'food'

< Germanic *_mat-_ 'measure' (= 'portion')

Might Low Saxon then have derived _Maat_ < _mate_ from *_ge-mate_ < Old
Saxon *_gi-mâto_?  Are such forms attested?  How else would one explain the
derivation 'food' > 'person who eats at the same table'?  (Cf. Middle High
German _ge-maZZe_ and Old High German _gi-maZZo_ mentoned above.)

Of course, this would then be a case like German _Genosse_, Dutch _genoot_
and Old English _genêat_ 'comrade' (which apparently have no Modern Low
Saxon (Low German) cognate in Germany; *_genoot_ in Netherlands Low Saxon?
If so, is it inherent or a Dutch loan?), only that in the case of _mate_
the prefix _ge-_ would have been lost in Low Saxon (a tendency that is
extreme in most modern dialects)?  _Genosse_, _genoot_ and _genêat_ are
reported as going back to a word for 'property': Germanic *_nauta-_ (>
English _neat_, Swedish _nöt_ 'livestock', 'cattle', German _genießen_
'enjoy', _Genuß_ 'enjoyment').  Thus, they must have originally denoted
something like 'person who shares one's property' (or could it have been
'person who is owned by the same master'?).

Answers keep raising new questions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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