LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 16.JAN.2000 (01) [Ap/E/S]

Sun Jan 16 22:45:29 UTC 2000

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From: G Halliday [G.Halliday at xtra.co.nz]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 15.JAN.2000 (01) [E]

Mark scrievit

> As for Gaelic, most parts of Scotland haven't heard it in few hundred of
> years and some areas never spoke it.  I feel that most Scots people feel
> Gaelic is foreign.
Mebbe sae, maist nou are o a min tae want their weans tae lern some, but.

> Again, history tells us that the Scots speakers (mostly
> lowland Scots) luiked doon on the highland Gaelic speakers as Chouchters
<--spelt right?-meaning hill billy.

That's "Teuchters"

>And most Scots speakers regard them as foreign as Irish, though kin.

Pairt o a campaign to relabel Gaelic - Erse- i.e. Irish wi uise o the wurd
Scots (umwhiles = Gaelic) bein transfert tae whit wis aince Inglis

>Chouchters wid call the lowlander a saussanch <--spelt> right? -
>literally a Saxon, meaning an Englishman.

Sassanach is ainlie uised fer the English i the Gaelic, a lallander is cryit
"Gall" neer "Sassanach".

>One can even think of  religion as well, most chouchters wid be Gaelic
speaking Catholics as maist
> saussanachs wid be Protestant.

Maist Gaels are Protestants syne Culloden 1746.

 There is in fak nae sma wirkin thegether amang Scots an Gaelic Scholars an
mony organisations forder baith the leids

 Association of Scottish Literary Studies wi their journal Scottish Language
Chapman Magazine an maist Scottish literary publicatrions
The Burns Trust (at studies Burns' Wark uisin Gaelic)
or prominent scholars the lik o Derick Thomson on the yin haun an Derick
MacClure on the ither at hae promotit baith leids or poets lik George
Campbell Hay or Willie Neill at scrieve Scots an Gaelic.

Geordie Halliday

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From: Richard L Turner [fr.andreas at juno.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 15.JAN.2000 (01) [E]

Hey Ar!

Mark (Braw 1 at aol.com) writ:
"Again, history tells us that the Scots speakers (mostly
lowland Scots) luiked doon on the highland Gaelic speakers as Chouchters
<--sp
elt right?-meaning hill billy."

Feller, hit's spelt "teuchter." Hit's a hillbilly at's a-correctin ye.

+Fr Andreas Turner.
Sevier Co., Tennessee

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From: Braw1 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 15.JAN.2000 (01) [E]

R F Hahn states
Andy, Colin, Mark, Ian, and other Lowlanders,

Don't you also think that, despite their relatively small numbers of speakers,
Gaelic in Scotland  (Gàidhlig) and Ireland (Gaeilge) also play important roles
symbolically and that this helps them to attract more support?  I am referring
here to the fact that they are perceived as emblems of Celtic ethnicity that
distinguish Scotland and Ireland from the "Saxon conquerors" (= English).
Certainly, this is how many outsiders have been conditioned to view these
countries (as well as Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man): as Celtic, vs
Germanic England.  Languages make good flags.

In response, I believe the Celts have an uncanny ability to recognise kinship
with any one from the one of the seven nations.  I have met Irish, people of
Breton and Galicia that would have an instant glint in their eye upon
realising our Celtic kinship. I believe a sense of one's nationality
transends language. However, linguistic, religious, and political differences
often interefere with these bonds. Yet, the Norman French majority in France
and the Norman-Saxon majority of the UK seem to distain each other.  I
propose that they dislike the similiarities more than their more modern
differences such as language and general religion and their mutual mistrust
is based in their historical claims to one anothers territories.
-Mark

Braw1

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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Language Policies"

Ron,

There is undoubtedly a lot of truth in what you say about Celtic language acting
as rather good ethnic flags in the Celtic Fringe.

In fact, unusually for a Scots-language campaigner, I do accept that distinction
is quite important. Many Scots activists, certainly the Ulster-Scots Language
Society and Heritage Council, have it as policy that they seek "parity of
esteem" and equal rights and funding to Gaelic, be it in Scotland or Northern
Ireland.

I personally am not too sure about this, as I hinted in an earlier mail. In
fact, the number of speakers is not the relevant thing, we are in fact talking
about supply and demand. There is quite simply more demand for the signpost on
entry to Scotland to read "Ceud Mile Failte" than "Walcome" (the Gaelic was
added three years ago; ironic, since I usually cross the border from Cumbria
into SW Scotland, where it is questionable if Gaelic was ever spoken).
Similarly, there is more demand for signs in NI museums to be up in Gaelic than
in Scots - there's irony here as well because usually Scots activists complain
bitterly that Scots doesn't appear on the signs, which tends to result not in
Scots being added but in Gaelic being removed again!

Certainly, however, I would agree that Gaelic carries a sort of cultural
significance that Scots does not. I suppose it is seen by many in Scotland,
Ireland and the Isle of Man as equivalent to Latin in an English Public School.
This may not be a bad comparison, for Gaelic has been taught like Latin in the
Irish Republic for decades, which has meant most people have found it an
irrelevant waste of resources (like the English state school system finds Latin
these days) and that numbers of speakers have declined. In Wales, however, where
the Welsh language was taught much more as a vibrant, modern language (in much
the same way as French or German would be), numbers of speakers have remained
fairly stable.

Something which (to add to Andy's hilarious but probably true point about Gaelic
activists not actually being native speakers) has meant the Welsh language has
been subject to proper research rather than nonsensical placename-renaming
projects a la Irish Gaelic.

Regards,
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"

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