LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 19.JAN.2000 (02) [E]

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From: Lee [glent at troi.csw.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 19.JAN.2000 (01) [E]

>From: Florian Lohbrunner [Lobbe.MacTanner at t-online.de]
>Subject:  LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 18.JAN.2000 (01) [E]
>
>This is what I found on the web page (http://www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com) of
>"sìol
>nan Gaidheal" ("Race" of the Gaels), a nationalist pressure group
>
>>The Gaelic Language
<snip>
>
>
>Some personal comments on this virtual "pamphlet":
>a) I'm neither a member of this group nor the author of this text. I just
>found
>it interesting to see the other point of view - quasi anti-Scots view.
>b) The author obviously dreams of a kind of medieval Scotland and he doesn't
>recognize widely know  historical and linguistic facts (Scots is NOT the same

>as
>"English" but a language on its own etc.)
>
>Regards,
>
>Florian L.
>
>----------


Hello Lowlanders,

I highly agree that Scots is a language on its own.  In School, I have
studied French and Spanish and there are a few similarities to English, very
few.  The same goes with Scots and English!  I may be wrong but I think that
the many similarities between Scots and English are due to their being
sister languages but nevertheless languages on their own.  As I said once
before, Scots is a language that stands on its own two feet!  I don't know
much about it and I've only studied it on line, along with my Scottish
Dictionary and I'm still reading Dauvit's publication of 'Carin.'  What I'm
trying to say is that you can take a praragraph in English and set it beside
a translation into Scots and if you can read English, but cannot read Scots,
you are going to have the darndest time understanding the Scots unless you
read the English passage first!  I have found many, many words in Scots are
as different from English as french is from English!  So, maybe Inglis and
Scots are sisters, and I can see that, I guess:) but I have to say that
Scots IS a leid that stands on its own merit and has a most rich heritage in
the history of Scotland and deserves to be preserved and studied.  This
language is so alive that it is different in various areas of Scotland, yet
many of its speakers can understand one another!  An outsider who is
learning Scots cannot do this! and as an outsider I must admit becoming
overwhelmed by my studies!;)  English certainly isn't like that!  We in the
Southern United States are told that our old mountain speak or Appalachian
speak is diffinately not proper one whit!  So I know how to speak proper
English (not write it!) and I know how to speak Appalachian, although very
little.

Scots is a language! and a tough one to learn!  Help I need a teacher! [smile]

Doug (Lee)

----------

From: Andrew Eagle [K27 at compuserve.com]
Subject:  Language politics

Ron wrote:
Subject: Language politics

>Thanks for that piece (above), Florian.  It "nicely" illustrates the point
I
>was trying to make, namely that, in reaction to English (= "Saxon" =
>"Germanic") domination, there have been attempts by some to portrait
Scotland
>as an essentially non-Germanic yet forcibly Germanicized nation even
within a
>modern context.  Of course, Germanization also happened to originally
>Celtic-speaking England, but I guess that can be conveniently ignored.
>Unfortunately, this highly simplistic picture is freely adopted by the
>international media, and most people I know think of Gaelic as the true,
>original language of Scotland.

Your right here about a 'simplistic picture'. Forced 'Anglification' (I use
the word 'Anglic' to mean varieties derived from Anglo-Saxon) was a much
later phenomenon.
'Anglic' spread through southern Scotland and up the east coast for
economic reasons. It was the language of trade in the Burghs. It was
economically advantageous to speak 'Anglic'. The Process of 'Anglification'
among the Celtic speaking inhabitants of England would have been similar -
though having occured much earlier. A process of language change and not
forced linguistic cleansing. Deliberate policies to establish standard
English in Scotland came much later with the establishment of universal
education, firstly by the kirk then later the state.
Lowland Scotland wasn't forcibly 'Anglicised'. 'Anglic' people have been
living there for centuries or me and my ilk are 'a few generations ago'
immigrant. The surnames of some of my closer relatives aren't exactly
oozing with celticity - Eagle, Buddo, Hill, Gorlay, Broun (Brown) Melvin
and Waters among others. Many contributors to this list have names in a
similar vein. I supose we immigrants will have to change our names or go
back to whence we came - wherever that was?

Going back to the image of an 'oppressed Celtic people fighting bravely
against Germanic colonizers' presented to the world. A myth. Scotland
became united with England as a nation bankrupted by a failed imperialist
adventure in Darien. Bribery, desperation and hope of a better economic
future led to the Union. Scotland's  (Scots speaking) ruling 'elite' was
"bought and sold for English gold". Scotland wasn't 'colonised'. The price
of course was massive English influence.  It is of course perfectly
legitimate to question the necessity of such a union today.

>I wonder if these people are proposing that Scotland was without language
or
>perhaps even unpopulated before the arrival of Gaelic speakers in Argyle
from
>Northern Ireland around 500 CE.  Theoretically speaking, they ought really
be
>doing their best to unearth and revive Pictish, the earliest language
(also
>Celtic) known to be spoken in Scotland, and they ought to be promoting
Welsh
>in Strathclyde.  Are the Celtic-rooted placenames in the Lowlands really
all
>of Gaelic origin, or could they be Pictish in origin?

Apart from Robbie the Pict, no one is campaigning for Pictish culture. As
for going back to our 'true linguistic roots' - I'm off to east Africa to
form a Proto-Nostratic speaking community.  On a more serious note, as far
as the Pictish language goes almost nothing is known about it.
Reconstructing it would be impossible.

Placenames in the Lowlands are of Pictish, Brythonic (Welsh), Gaelic,
Scandinavian, Scots and more recently English origin, many are a mixture of
two or more of these.
Friockheim in Angus has the German element Heim. The Local 'Laird' was in
Germany for a while and obviously liked the sound of 'Heim' so added it to
Friock. I haven't a clue what language 'Friock' is though it could be from
the Gaelic Fraoch - Heath.

None of the above should be taken to imply that Celtic culture should not
be enjoyed, encouraged or appreciated.
we're aa Jock Thamson's bairns!

Andy

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language politics

Andy Eagle wrote:

> Apart from Robbie the Pict, no one is campaigning for Pictish culture.

Are you serious?  Is there really someone who does?

Indeed!  The Web just gave me the answer and told me a number of stories about
him, most concisely at http://www.highlanderweb.co.uk/robpict.htm:

"In 1977 a, then little known, Scotsman renounced his United Kingdom
citizenship and formed the Pictish Free State in the Pictland of Alba."
"Brian Robertson (1947 - ), now known as Robbie the Pict, formed the State
with one acre of land near Tote, south of Staffen on the Isle of Skye. Today
the Pictish Free State owns in excess of 1000 acres after being added to by
supporters of the State."
"Robbie, who is a psychology graduate and member of Mensa, has been prosecuted
over 300 times by the Police for ignoring 'British laws', all trivial. Robbie
runs the State from the Pictish High Commission and drives with Diplomatic
Corps number plates, a fact which would normally allow him freedom from
prosecution. Yet, unfortunately the British Government do not recognise
Pictland despite its historical credentials."
"Every year the members of the State celebrate Dunnichen Day. A national
holiday to commemorate the victory of Nechtansmere when King Brude of Pictland
defeated King Ecgfrith of
Northumberland in 685 AD. The members hold a remembrance ceremony on Dunnichen
Hill, over looking the ancient battlefield."
"Robbie is often unfairly seen as a rather eccentric character who has decided
to drop out of mainstream society. However, many know him to be a highly
intelligent, highly motivated man
who is merely trying to reawaken interest in Pictish culture following
centuries of English subversion. His right to be a Pict is a valid one and he
has countless supporters throughout the
world who share his desire."
"Robbie remains unmoved by the refusal of the British Government to recognise
the Pictish Free State. Indeed, he knows that the Picts have more right to
govern than the English and he
in turn refuses to acknowledge their government by ignoring their laws. Quite
right too."
"Highlander Web Magazine supports all members of the Pictish Free State in
their cause."

It reminds me a bit of the East Frisian consulates (I believe) in a couple of
places in Germany.

You further wrote:

> The surnames of some of my closer relatives aren't exactly
> oozing with celticity - Eagle, Buddo, Hill, Gorlay, Broun (Brown) Melvin
> and Waters among others. Many contributors to this list have names in a
> similar vein. I supose we immigrants will have to change our names or go
> back to whence we came - wherever that was?

Are you trying to tell us then that you are *not* a transplanted Native
American?  ;)  Seriously, that's what an American friend of mine assumed about
you and John Feather!  :D

> Friockheim in Angus has the German element Heim. The Local 'Laird' was in
> Germany for a while and obviously liked the sound of 'Heim' so added it to
> Friock. I haven't a clue what language 'Friock' is though it could be from
> the Gaelic Fraoch - Heath.

I believe that in this case "Germanic" would be more accurate than "German."
I assume the origin of "...heim" here is not German but Norwegian ([hEIm]) --
cf. Jotunheim, Trondheim, Eitrheim, Nesheim, Fagerheim, Asheim, Stadheim,
Austrheim, Vadheim, Marheim, Solheim, Nordheim, etc., all places in Norway
(mostly in central coastal regions apparently).  I guess it's at least
distantly related to German _Heim_ and _...heim_, English 'home' and '...ham'
(< _hâm_), Icelandic _heim-_, etc.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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