LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 01.JUN.2000 (01) [E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 1 14:41:40 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 01.JUN.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Thomas [t.mcrae at uq.net.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (04) [E]
> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (04) [E]
> in Scotland it's always simply ER.
True enough but that's because we Scots objected so much to the other
cypher. A mail van bearing the EIIR cypher was vandalised on the Scottish
borders and the first mail box to bear the cypher in Scotland (Edinburgh)
was repeatedly painted blue, tarred, and cracked with sledge hammers it was
finally blown up on a quiet summer night. Shos windows displaying the cypher
were broken and Scots began saying the Scottish alphabet was ABCDSTUVWXYZ
i.e. No E to R. :-)
The authorities finally got the message, hence the ER cypher in Scotland.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
"Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
Robert Burns--
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From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (01) [E]
At 10:27 31/05/00 -0700, john feather wrote:
>A subtle point - too subtle perhaps. In the first place, Good Queen Bess was
>Queen of Ireland as well.
Point taken.
> Second, her successor's styles and titles begin "Her
>Most Excellent Majesty ELIZABETH THE SECOND ... by the Grace of God, of the
>United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other Realms
>and Territories Queen, ..." so she evidently has a firm opinion on the
>subject.
Evidently so, but irrespective of how she styles herself, it's an
inescapable fact that she's only the first (reigning) Queen Elizabeth of
the United Kingdom.
It's a fact too that Good Queen Bess wasn't a queen of Scotland,
so we Scots certainly can't look to her as "our Virgin Queen".
>Jan De Craemere wrote:
>Is it not like this:
>
>Britain = England + Wales
>Great Britain = Britain + Scotland
>United Kingdom (of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) = Great Britain +
>Northern Ireland
In the current usage, at least, "Britain" is usually synonymous with
"the United Kingdom" or, if not, then with "Great Britain". It's possible
that John Feather was using "Brits" in another, possibly older, sense
(perhaps he'll clarify this) but that isn't how most people would
understand the word.
Colin Wilson.
*********************************************************************
the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
Colin Wilson the barra wadna row its lane
writin fae Aiberdein an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
**********************************************************************
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From: Ted Harding <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (04) [E]
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 13:00:04 -0700
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (04) [E]
> From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
> Subject: "Monarchs"
>
> As for the English-Scottish border, I'm still not too sure about
> Berwick-upon-Tweed - nobody ever seems to mention it!
According to my map (and with both pairs of glasses on for
greater magnification) the border skirts Berwick-upon-Tweed
2 or 3 miles to North and West, breaking away from the midline
of the Tweed (which cuts Berwick in half) a couple of miles
upstream. So Berwick-upon-Tweed would seem to be in England.
However, I'm wondering about whether it still has its "independent"
status; if I'm not mistaken, it was only last year that it concluded
its peace treaty with Russia, having been formally at war (in its own
right) since 1914-1918.
Best wishes to all,
Ted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 284 7749
Date: 31-May-00 Time: 23:13:00
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
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From: "Ian James Parsley" <parsley at highbury.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Monarchs" LOWLANDS-L, 31.MAY.2000 (01) [E]
Dear all,
As usual with these things it's nothing like as simple as all that! The
name "Britain", to cut a ludicrously long story ludicrously short, comes
after the "Cruithin" tribe (Q-Celtic to P-Celtic, thus "Pretani", thus
"Pretannic" thus "Britannic"), who were as much Irish as "mainland British".
Ptolemy, about 2000 years back, referred only to the "Pretannic Isles", he
didn't name them separately. The Romans also would have referred to them as
such, but their own province, which corresponded roughly to England and Wales,
was also referred to as "Britannia" - in much the same way as the U.S. State
Department refers to its territory as "the Virgin Islands", when actually the
Virgin Islands are a greater territory than that belonging to the U.S.
The Romans in fact originally referred to the western island as
"Scotia", and apparently used "Albion" or such like to refer to the eastern
island if necessary. When there was a major population shift from "Scotia" to
"Caledonia", "Caledonia" then became the "land of the 'Scots'" (="land
of the Irish"), hence the name Scotland (meaning, in fact, land of the
Irish). "Hibernia" to mean Ireland came into greater use after the fall of the
Empire, by most accounts. It was not until much later that the name
"Britannia" began to refer exclusively to the eastern island as a whole,
such as in a map from the 16th century I saw recently which was of "Britannia
et Hibernia".
All of this means that it is an over-simplification (sadly!) to say
that "Britain" ever really meant "England and Wales", although it was
because of this view that when Scotland was added the name became "Great
Britain" - "great" meaning "big" rather than "very good"! Then in 1801 Ireland
was added to the British state, which then became known as "the United Kingdom
of Great Britain and Ireland". The "British Isles" actually included further
territories of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands.
Many people will tell you that the Irish Republic does NOT form part of
the British Isles, but for reasons illustrated above there is no reason to
suggest that the name "British Isles" should refer in any way to the
"British state" (i.e. that run from London). On a bus tour of Dublin
once the driver explained that the Shannon was "the longest river in the
British Isles" and then, after a moment's thought, added "although strictly
speaking the Republic of Ireland isn't in the British Isles, but youse know
what I mean!"
I think the name is actually a political one - you have two states in
these islands, "British" and "Irish", so people are inclined to drive a wedge
between the two. This is part of the reason it is so difficult to
define "Britishness", because there's not much culturally that links England,
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland which doesn't also link the rest of
Ireland. Yet even the rugby team is now entitled "the British and Irish
Lions".
Others have argued that the term *British* Isles is offensive to Irish
nationalists - one would wonder how come Northern *Ireland* isn't offensive
to Northern Irish unionists then...
Would that it were all much less complicated!
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
0772 0951736
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"
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