LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" 22.JUN.2000 (01) [Ap/E/S]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Thu Jun 22 19:05:16 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Richard L Turner [fr.andreas at juno.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" 21.JUN.2000 (03) [E/S]
Hey.
It was at breakfast this morning, discussing this string with my
wife, that it occurred to me that there was a very usual "mondegreen" (I
love that word! Thanks, Sandy.) in our dealings with non-Appalachians:
"They was a feller a-standin outside this leetle restaurant oer in
Banner Elk, an this Flatlander comes in in his fine caur. The feller asts
him wuid he keer tae carry him oer tae Monteagle. "I wouldn't care to
carry you at all," says the furriner. When he comes back out atter eatin
his bait o dinner, thar sets the feller in his caur."
Not funny, really, but illustrative of two of the commonest elements
of missed meaning in our communications with others. Oh. And the
historical present.
Notes:
Banner Elk: town on North Carolina side of the Smokies.
Flatlander: anyone not from the mountains.
Keer: to mind, "Wuid ye keer tae?"="Would you mind?"
Carry: to give transport.
Monteagle: town on Tennessee side of the Smokies.
bait: a meal.
dinner: lunch.
Yorn,
Fr Andreas Richard Turner.
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From: Matthew McGrattan [matthew.mcgrattan at brasenose.oxford.ac.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" 20.JUN.2000 (02) [E]
> There's another English comedian who's also a Trekkie (Bill Bailey)
> who in one of his stand-up routines uses examples from Scots to support
his
>
> theory that Scottish people are actually beings from the future. How can
> you
> say "I'm awa" when you're at home, unless you actually from somewhere
> else? I can't make this sound as convincing as he does though!
Ah've seen him dae the same routine. right funny it wis, an aw.
> And of course there are a few eng/sco confusion mondegreens. For
> example, when my mother was at school, she used to sing the first line of
> "Good King Wenceslas" as "The good king winched his lass last night"
> (winched=courted).
Ah wans hid a big argument wi a friends faither o'er this. He
wans asked us if I was "winchin" some lassie that ah wis seein' (I was
14 at the time). Ah became right indignant for whaur a cum fae,
"winchin" can mean the same thing as the Inglish "french-kissin'"
which ah thocht was a wee bittie personal fir some auld fella to be
askin' us. He didnae ken why ah was gettin' so het up, for he was fae
a different pairt o' Scotland [oot by Edinburgh way] an "winchin" only
hud the wan meanin' for him. Aifter ah explaint the misunnerstaunin wi
huda right guid laugh aboot it.
So plenty misunnerstaunins can happen even between twa Scots speakers
(o' sorts). :-)
Cheers,
Matt
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From: gdeutsch at estec.esa.nl
Subject: LL-L: "Mutual comprehension" 21.JUN.2000 (03) [E/S]
Georg Deutsch at ESA
06/22/2000 11:58 AM
Thank you Ron for your help to save 'my'joke by correcting it
linguistically
and the socio-cultural context:
>(1) Take out the auxiliary verb 'can'
>
>(2) Change the language from (supposed) Low Saxon (Low German) to Northern
>German or to Missingsch (both of which would apply here and have no
>definite borderline between them anyway), i.e., German with a Low Saxon
>"accent." Apart from what I said about the /g/ in my previous posting,
>please note that in most Northern Low Saxon dialects the drink is _Rum_
>while '(all) about' is _rüm_; so that wouldn't work here. Most
>importantly, I don't think that within the last two centuries or so any
Low
>Saxon speaker in his/her right mind would go to Vienna and use their
native
>language there <snip>
>Here is the revision:
>
>A German from Hamburg comes to a shop in Vienna and asks at the entrance:
>"Kriech ich hier Rum?"
> The shop keeper looks surprised, shrugs his shoulders and says:
>"Von mir aus kraeuln'S umanand was woin!"
I have to admit, I wrote the story as I head heard it many years ago,
without
reflecting
about the correctness of details.
Of course you are right, Low Saxon speakers never would just use their
language in a Upper German environment
But, as you indicated already, northern Germans often do use THEIR German,
i.e. with a pronunciation which sometimes shows a Low Soxon substratum.
They
quite sure would use 'Rum'with a short [u] since they normally believe that
this the standard for the whole German speaking area (I have no idea if
this
has a Low Saxon origin). And they might use the fricative in KRIEGEN and
eventually not the fricative in ICH/ICK in the assumption this is
understood
everywhere, even if it is normally well-known that this not a standard for
all speakers of German. (These variations, as far I have understood
actually
are due to a LS substratum).
The drawback in OUR context is: the story does not fit fully to (y)our
demand. None of the two language variation is really a Lowlands vernacular.
But since Low-Saxon-influenced German is not totally off the topic, I'd
like
to query further your information in your other posting: You wrote the
pronunciation [kri:Cen] for kriegen could not be from Hamburg of any
Northern
Low Saxon, but form far east or west. Where would it be possible? Perhaps
in
Berlin?
Maybe for the sake of the story it is better to drop the pretended
Hamburgian
connection.
"Kriech ich hier Rum" is a linguistic correct and social likely version
from
a person coming from Hamburg, but to me the story is less nice. If somebody
just asks something which could be misunderstood as: Am I here crawling
around?,
this is not understood as a request. The answer than must be: Wieso denn,
Sie
stengan do grad vor mia! (how can you ask this, you are just standing in
front of me!).
I think a question misunderstood as a request makes the case stronger.
Ron, I suppose you get my point: I'd like to save the original story since
I
think it is a bit nicer, but it must be (confirmed by you!) in a social &
linguistic correct way.
So, could this version be correct?
A German from Berlin comes to a shop in Vienna and asks at the entrance:
"Kann ich hier Rum [rum] kriegen [kri:cen] ?"
The shop keeper looks surprised, shrugs his shoulders and says:
"Von mir aus kräuln S' umanand was woin!"
Or, if not Berlin, is there another place, where it could fit that way?
;) Georg
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Mutual comprehension
Dear Georg,
While we're at it, let's just go ahead and trample this joke till it's good
and dead! Shall we? ;)
I have the distinct feeling that the root of the problem is that the joke
is of Austrian making and that therefore one of the speakers is
"pseudo-Northern," i.e., speaks as a Austrian *thinks* a North German ought
to speak. (And, believe me, the same often applies the other way around.)
I am not sure exactly which dialect would have *_kriechen_ for _kriegen_
'to get', though I hope one of our subscribers knows. I'm afraid that,
even if we find out, the place would be so obscure to an Austrian (or even
to a North German) that it wouldn't do any good and you would have to
resort to just say "someone from somewhere in Northern Germany ..." ...
Perhaps there are such dialects (*_kriechen_ 'to get') in the southwest of
the Low Saxon (Low German) dialect area, near the border with the Southern
Netherlands and Northern Belgium, where /g/ is *generally* fricativized.
Other dialects that have intervocalic fricativization, such as in the east
(many of which dialects are moribund or extinct now) usually retain voicing
in those environments, thus _kriejen_ or _krieje_ 'to get'.
Of course, within the language itself there can be no confusion between 'to
get' and 'to creep'. since 'to creep' is mostly _krüpen_ or _krupen_ (e.g.,
_he krüüpt (rüm)_ 'he creeps (around)').
> The drawback in OUR context is: the story does not fit fully to (y)our
> demand. None of the two language variation is really a Lowlands
vernacular.
*I* think it does work perfectly nicely in the version I proposed. You
wheren't satisfied with the omission of the auxiliary 'can'. I have no
problem with it, because _Kriech ich hier Rum?_ is definitely a question
that in this context is perfectly normal and implies possibility or
permission. It is quite normal and typical for a Northerner to ask
questions of this type, especially with _kriegen_. Of course, I actually
*hear* the guy ask that question, and thus I'm keenly aware of the
distinctively Northern interrogative intonation that leaves no doubt if
what written looks like a statement (despite the question mark) is a
question. (A Northern shopkeeper would certainly understand it
correctly.) Most Northerners whose German is more or less derived from
Missingsch and therefore have more or less strong Low Saxon substrates have
very distinctive, elaborate contour tones in questions, namely (mid>high>)
high>low>mid, which can (but does not necessarily) fall onto a single word
or single syllable (in this case _Rum_). (Actually, it's not very
different from the interrogative contour tone I hear in some South English
dialects, especially in the speech of women.) Every time I visit Northern
Germany, my native stomping ground, this "accent" and the intonation hit me
as soon as I step off the aircraft. People there don't even know what I'm
talking about when I mention it. I suppose these "subtleties," screaming
though they seem to me, escape most Southerners also, or they can't put
their fingers on them.
> Of course you are right, Low Saxon speakers never would just use their
> language in a Upper German environment
> But, as you indicated already, northern Germans often do use THEIR
German,
> i.e. with a pronunciation which sometimes shows a Low Soxon substratum.
They
> quite sure would use 'Rum'with a short [u] since they normally believe
that
> this the standard for the whole German speaking area (I have no idea if
this
> has a Low Saxon origin). And they might use the fricative in KRIEGEN and
> eventually not the fricative in ICH/ICK in the assumption this is
understood
> everywhere, even if it is normally well-known that this not a standard
for
> all speakers of German. (These variations, as far I have understood
actually
> are due to a LS substratum).
Very true. As I said earlier, most Northerners find it virtually
impossible to clearly distinguish between Northern German and Missingsch.
It's a sliding scale, and people's normal speech modes may be at any point
on that scale. When it sounds "really uneducated" to Northerners' ears
they will probably tend to consider it Missingsch, especially where there
is only one objective case defaulting to what sounds like the accusative
(i.e., no morphophonological distinction between dative and accusative
other than in pronouns; e.g., Missingsch _Ich geep den Lütten sein Bonschie
wieder_ vs. Standard German _Ich gebe dem Kleinen seinen Bonbon zurück_ 'I
(will) give the little one his candy back', cf. Low Saxon _Ick geev den
Lütten sien Bontje wedder_). The speech modes of some people -- and it's a
dwindling number due to an education system that does not encourage
Missingsch -- might fall onto the Missingsch side, even though they
themselves may think they speak acceptable German, and these people are
likely to speak like this to "Qiddjes" (i.e., German speakers that are not
familiar with the ways of the North). I've seen it happen even outside
Germany, for instance in Italy and Dalmatia, Croatia.
Even though German as a whole is not a part of Lowlands-L, Missingsch and
Missingsch-derived German dialects ought to be within the scope, since they
have Low Saxon (Low German) substrates.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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