LL-L: "Language politics" 28.JUN.2000 (02) [Ap/E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Thomas [t.mcrae at uq.net.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" 27.JUN.2000 (01) [S]

> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" 27.JUN.2000 (01) [S]
>
> From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
> Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" 26.JUN.2000 (04) [S]
>
> At 18:41 26/06/00 -0700, Sasndie wraet:
>> Canna think whare the ither anes micht be, tho The Tappit Hen soonds
>> familiar - Edinburgh?
Colin Wilson replied..
> It's in Back Wynd, Aiberdein.
Ah ken that thair uist tae be a shoap in Edinburgh's Canongate wi that name

in 1971, wiz a toey shoap if ah mind right.

Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
"Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
Robert Burns--

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From: Richard L Turner [fr.andreas at juno.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" 27.JUN.2000 (03) [S]

Hey Ar!

Andy writ:
"A'v seen things lik 'Tatties selt here.' "

An tother day A seen whar they was "Aigs" an "Angurns" offered fer sale
in a Knox County, Tennessee grocery store. Was they pullin laigs? Eah,
but hit was a laig everbody stands on hyir. We mought yet see the morry!

Yorn,
+Fr. Andreas Richard Turner.

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From: Keith Kennetz [k_kennetz at hotmail.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language politics" 24.JUN.2000 (01) [E]

On 24 June 2000 Ian James Parsley wrote:
>I've just returned from a trip from Hamburg and actually turned on the
>radio at home (I receive German radio by satellite) to catch the end of a
>programme about the development of Luebeck, and the role Latin and
>"Niederdeutsch" played in its history.
>
>Anyway, the situation of Low Saxon and Scots is, to me, very similar, but
>there are certain aspects where Scots has a lot to learn. It is noticeable

>in several homes in the Hamburg area that there are subtle welcome mats or

>plaques with the gospel on written in Low German, just to hint at a Low
>Saxon-speaking heritage. And in some ways Low Saxon does not appear, at
>least the outsider, to be quite so downtrodden - I was reminded of a song
>from years ago entitled "Dat wichtigste is, dat ihr Fussball spielt"
>(hardly broad Low Saxon, but the influence on what we might term "Northern

>High German" is obvious and there is no attempt to hide it). There is a
>bakery chain in the area called "Dat Backhus", thus Low Saxon appears on
>nearly every high street.

I lived and studied in Hamburg 95-97 - that by no means qualifies me as an
"insider" in regards to the Low Saxon language there, but I would like to
comment briefly on the current situation of Low Saxon in Hamburg. (I also
know next to nothing about the usage of Scots -just what I read here on
this
Listserve)

Unfortunately one hears and sees very little Low Saxon in Hamburg - it is
certainly not to be seen on every high street through out the city. 'Dat
Backhus' is a very isolated example of public usage of Low Saxon in the
city. Although colloquial words and phrases such as the daily greeting
'Moin
Moin' or 'Schietwetter' are still used in conversation, Low Saxon in most
situations is still highly stigmatized. On my arrival to Hamburg, I was
disappointed as to how few people still actually speak Low Saxon. Public
usage of Low Saxon is 'tolerated' by most Hamburgers, but few would
actually
use it as a primary or even secondary means of communication.

Furthermore, having been there for two years the overall linguistic picture

I got concerning the fate Low Saxon in Hamburg is far from promising.
Speakers of Low Saxon seems to be restricted to only the older generations
of the population. Many of my friends who grew up in Hamburg or the
surrounding areas claimed they could understand Low Saxon, but of these,
none claimed they could actually speak it with any proficiency (all were in

their 20s or 30s). And more importantly, few regretted not having learned
it
and even fewer expressed the desire to learn it. This of course doesn't bod

well for the future of Low Saxon.

I would agree, however, that is there is a trend afoot that is reversing
the
work of past centuries. Public attitudes towards Low Saxon are slowly
changing but whether this trend can effect the ultimate fate of Low Saxon
remains to be seen.

From: Keith Kennetz
Subject: Language Politics
K_Kennetz at hotmail.com

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language politics

Dear Lowlanders,

As a born and bred Hamburger (with a capital "H") with most of his closest
relatives and some freinds still residing in Hamburg and the surrounding
area, I read Keith's input (above) with great interest.  I have to agree
with pretty much everything he said.

I believe that Germanization has been most intensive in the large cities of
Northern Germany, which constitutes the larger part of the
Low-Saxon-speaking area. The larger the city the more intensive this
process has been.  Hamburg is by far the largest of these cities.  Of
course, one might theorize about the reasons.  One might remember that
German ("High German") began usurping the North through the prestige
institutions of the larger cities, that it came to be a key for what has
been seen as prestige and success, that this struggle for prestige and
success is more intensive in large cities, and that population influx from
traditionally German-speaking areas helps to erode the foundation of the
original language -- hence the disappearance of the original language of
the land being well ahead of that in the rural and semi-rural areas.
Post-WW-II displacement of Germans (only some of which spoke Low Saxon,
often "exotic" dialects) from the eastern regions and their resettlement
throughout Northern Germany was one of the last main blows again the
language and helped to speed up Germanization everywhere, especially in the
large cities.  Added to this were post-war educational policies that did
not include Low Saxon or did so only sporadically, halfheartedly and not
with language teaching and maintenance in mind.  That era was one of rapid
shifting from Low Saxon to German.  Western Germany's so-called "economic
miracle" allowed urban working class families -- many of which had still
used the old language -- to abandon Low Saxon, i.e., to discourage its use
among their children, as upward mobility became possible as a result of
economic improvements and gradual erosion of class barriers.  Thus,
Standard German offered economic insentive; Low Saxon did not.

I grew up in amongst all that, and I belong to a small minority of
Hamburgers of my generation that never saw Low Saxon as low-prestige and
that retained an interest in it (though in my early days I rarely felt free
to talk about it), even made an effort to use it.  There were others.  Many
of those had left-wing views and saw Low Saxon as a symbol of the
indiginous working class with which they fancied themselves as having some
sort of political solidarity.  (They themselves tended to be from more
privileged strata of society and had prestigeous educational
opportunities.)  Besides that, it was mostly middle-aged and older folks
that used the language.  Some were even as outrageous as also to promote
it, mostly to be ignored and seen as "old-timers" and  _Lokaloriginale_
(excentric locals).  Some of the foremost promoters were entertainers,
clerics and a minority of educators.  (In fact, it was one of our local
school principals whose speeches inspired me.)  Little, if any, of this
took place in downtown Hamburg and in the office workers' hang-outs.  Most
of it took place in the residential areas and former towns that had been
integrated into the State of Hamburg; thus, little of this was apparent to
the visitor.  Remember also that Low Saxon tended to be used mostly in a
sort of secretive fashion, among relatives and friends.  Another, more
recent population influx from other parts of Germany and from Mediterranean
countries, lately from Eastern Europe and from Third World countries, is
now helping to further erode the foundation of Low Saxon.  Will the
officially improved status of Low Saxon in Germany be able to reverse this
trend or at least slow it down?  In my view, there is a fairly remote
chance of that, I am sorry to say.  My hope is that there will be a
noticeable comeback of the language in the rural areas and in smaller
cities, with more Low Saxon use in the media, and this, in conjunction with
a return of Low Saxon into school curricula, might at least help cities
like Hamburg to retain and enlarge a minority of language enthusiasts.
Otherwise there won't be much more than symbolic gestures of the kind
mentioned earlier.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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