LL-L: "Language politics" LOWLANDS-L, 05.MAR.2000 (02) [E/Breton/French/German]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 05.MAR.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: Language varieties
This Saturday, in an Antwerpian second hand book shop, I found some books in
some West European minority languages, and I'm wondering if, for surviving,
they need to create a unified koiné or not. By way of speaking: Does
__Bremer Low-Saxon__ have to merge with __Hamburg Low Saxon__ into a unified
__"Low-Saxon"__ for surviving? Does __Low-Saxon__ have to merge with
__Westphalian__ into a unified __"Low-German"__ for surviving, as a kind of
LG Esperanto - or not?
We have our own Belgian example. Our "Diets" cultural linguistic heritage
was saved by pushing a standard koiné, Dutch, hardly anyone could speak
correctly, to replace French in the North of this country. Unfortunately,
part of the politics was to promote "correct Dutch" at the expense of the
regional dialects, which are disapppearing, eventually slowly via semi-Dutch
transition variants.
Oddities: the most ferocious "Flemish" actions against the French
predominance came from West-Flanders (Rodenbach, Verriest, ...) but the most
prominent writers from this area (Gezelle, Streuvels) wrote in a language,
that, though morphologically it was not written "as pronounced" (e.g. they
wrote g and h in the Dutch way), still included an extensive "West-Flemish"
regional vocabulary and kept a little bit of West-Flemish grammar (female
words ending on -e, two word negation "..;en ... niet", ...). As a result,
Dutch people can read it, providing there are some footh notes for exotic
(West-) Flemish words (often Saxon rather than Franconian, e.g. "stuut" fot
the Dutch "boterham", "bachten" (cf. behind, back) for Dutch "achter", "te
gare" (together) for Dutch "te samen" etc...)
Second oddity: Belgian Limburg (the old county of Loon) participated in the
battle for the Dutch language, though, I think, one can hardly say
Limburgish is a Dutch dialect, and it even took some time before it was
accepted as "Low German" on this very list. Just after that battle
"pro-Dutch against French" it is difficult to motivate people a second time,
now for fighting pro-Limburgish and against Dutch.
But an additional element is that Limburgish has no koinè. A couple of years
ago there has been an action at the district court of Sittart against the
publication of a strip, written in an artificial common Limburgish, ready to
be published by the newspaper "Limburgs Dagblad". The organisation, D.O.L.,
that toke care of the translation, lost the case, and Veldeke took care of
the final edition: each of the persons in the strip speak their own variant:
Maastrichts, Sittards, Kinners (from Kinrooi, Belgium) etc.
Actually Veldeke, THE literary organisation for Limburgish, forces all
contributors to follow it's unified orthograhy (J. Notten, Aanwijzingen voor
de spelling van de Limburgse dialecten, 1983, Veldeke, 36 pp.) but wants
each contributor to write in his own parish variant, and sign the
contribution by both name and municipality.
A political problem, I think for Limburgish, is, that most organisations
(Veldeke; WLD Woordenboek van de Limburgse Dialecten, etc.) incorporate the
territories of both provinces Limburg, that roughly, but NOT COMPLETELY
coïncide, with the Limburgish language area (the "Ich maak" area, generally
cut off in the West by the Gete river). The Kleverländish and few Brabantish
municipalities that are in the North of the joint provinces are only rarely
present at common activities and do not have any political influence. The
few Ripuarian municipalities, especially Kerkrade, Kirchrao, have a very
strong presence and influence. In the 1999 annual Veldeke literary contents,
2 of the 5 finalists came from Kerkrade, and they ended 1th and 3d (The 3
others wrote in Limburgish, one of them in Brees from Belgium). I guess it's
unthinkable that Kerkrade people, who speak a Ripuarian very similar to
Öches (dialect from Aachen) will accept a unified Limburgish.
So I'm wondering what way one should go politically, especially when going
through the "exotic books" I found yesterday.
--A-- Rheto-Roman
I my "Atlas of Switserland' (sheet 28a, Sprachen II, 1967, I read (in
German):
Karte 3a: Die Sprache der Schulfibeln in Graubünden.
Das dreisprachigen Graubünden verwendet in seinen Primarschulen __sieben__
verschiedenen Fibeln.
In Deutschbünden ... deutsch...
in den drei Südtälern Mesolcona (mit Calanca), Bregaglia und val Poschiavo
... Schriftitalienisch..
Im rätoromanischen Gebiet aber sind infolge der starken dialektalen
Zesplitterung fünf verschiedene Elementarbüchlein nötig. Sie sind in
folgenden Hauptidiomen in Gebrauch:
1. __sursilvan__, __ Surselvisch__ oder __Oberländisch__. Diese Fiebel wird
auch in Trin gebraucht, das streng genommen zur Sutselva gehört, sowie im
mundartlich besonders eigenwilligen __Vaz__ (Obervaz im Albulatal, auf der
Karte nicht angegeben).
2. __sutsilvan__, __Sutselvisch__. Im stark verdeutschten Gebiete der
Sutselva (Hinterrheingebiet) einschliesslich Domat (Ems) verwendet man
mancherorts statt der sutselvischen Fibel die deutsche und führt die Schüler
mit Hilfe eines besonderen kleinen Leitfadens in die Sutselvische
Schriftsprache ein.
3. __surmiran__, __Surmeirisch__. In diesen Gebiete hat die Italienische
Fibel in dem stark bergellischen Einschlag aufweisenden Beiva (Bivio)
Eingang gefunden.
(-- comment: reference is made to the Italian language from Bergell (Val
Bregaglia); for "Italian" read dialectwise "Gallo-Italian" dialects of
"West-lombardian" type)
4. __puter__ oder __ladin d'Engiadin'ota__, __Oberengadinisch__. Die
oberengadinsiche Fibel gilt ausser für das Obenengadin auch für die Gemeinde
Bergün/Bravuogn. Die starke Zuwanderung deutscher Bevolkerüng hat jedoch die
romanische Fibel in St. Moritz zugunsten der deutschen verdrängt.
5. _vallader__ oder __ladin d'Engiadina bassa__. __Unterengadinisch__. Die
unterengadinische Fibel steht allgemein im Gebrauch, ausser im Samnaun, das
bereits im 19. Jahrhundert vom Tirol her germanisiert wurde.
Other background comments (from sheet 27; 1967):
- Nationalsprache der Schweiz: German, French,Italian and Rhetoroman
- Amtssprachen des Bundes: German, French and Italian
- "Amtssprachen" in the cantons Bern, Freburg and Wallis: German and French
- Amstssprache im Kanton Graubünden: German, Rhetoraoman and Italian.
(Comment: The Jura was still part of Bern in 1967 when this Atlas was
published)
further (Sheet 28a):
Bildung der regionalen Schriftsprachen:
Oberengadinsch seit 1560
Unterengadinisch seit 1562,
Sutselvisch seit 1601,
Surselvisch seit 1611,
Surmeirisch seit dem 18. Jahrhundert.
Als kantonalen Amtssprachen gelten das __Surselvische__ und das
__Engadinische__. In diesen beide Varianten erscheinen die
Grossratsabschiede und andere Amtsschriften.
Die eidgenössischen Grundgesetze (Bundesverfassung, Zivilgesetzbuch,
Obligationenrecht, Strafgesetzbuch) sind alle ins __Surselvische__
übersetzt. Einzig für das Strafgesetzbuch gibt es auch eine __engadinische__
Ausgabe.
So now, let's see how we find this rhetoromanish diversity back in the books
I found:
- A. Vellaman, Dicziunari scurznieu de la Lingua __Ladina__, __pustüt
d'Engiadin' Ota__, cun traducziun tudais-cha, francesca ed inglaisa, 1929,
Samaden, Engadin Press Co, XLVII + 928 pp.
(English subtitle: Abridged dictionary of the Ladin (or Romansh) language)
- Ramun Vieli, Vocabularis retoromontschs, Vocabumari tudestg -
__romontsch__ __sursilvan__, 1944, Stamparia della Bünder Tagblatt A.G.,
Cuera, XVI + 916 pp.
(German subtitle: Deutsch-romanisches Wörterbuch, Surselvisch)
- Oscar Peer, Dicziunari rumantsch __ladin__-tudais-ch, 1962, Edizion de la
Lia Rumantscha, Cuoira, XVII + 600 pp.
(in the German comment: Das Wörterbuch enthält mit einer einzigen Ausnahme
die __Unter-_- und __Ober-engadiner__ Form)
- Walter Scheitlin, Il pled __puter__, Grammatica __ladina d'Engiasin'ota__,
Ediziun da l'Uniun dals Grischs, 1962, 240 pp.
- Sep Modest Nay, Lehrbuch der Rätoromanischen Sprache
(deutsch-__surselvisch__), 4. unveränderte Auflage, 1972; Ligia Romontscha,
XVI + 223 pp.
I suppose the Li_a R_u_m_a_ntscha and the Li_g_ia R_o_m_o_ntscha are the
same organization (I checked several times for typing errors).
I guess this proves it is possible a language is maintained and instructed
in several regional forms in an area. However Rhetoromanish has alltogether
practically a lower status than the 3 other Swiss languages, and I think it
has to defend itself with some difficulties, not only versus the big
cultural languages, but also versus the other dialects:
(as stated sheet 28a)
Sur- & Sutselvisch v/ Allemanisch
Unterengadinisch v/ Bayerisch-Tirolisch
Oberengadinisch v/ Italienisch
(and above all commonly: v/ German)
In Switserland there is also a very visible presence of the German dialects
(sheet 27a):
So stehen in der deutschen Schweiz seit etwa 150 Jahren die in natürlichen
Weise gewachsene alemanische Mundart (bzw. die Mundarten) und die aus
Deutschland übernommene Schriftsprache nebeneinander. Der Unterschied
zwisschen beiden ist beträchtlich und um so grosser, je weiter man nach
Süden geht. Von Haus aus spricht der Deutschschweizer eine Mundart von mehr
oder weniger lokaler Farbung... Es Entspricht dem demokratischen Grundzug
unseres politischen Lebens, dass jeder Deutschschweitzer im Gespräch mit
einem Landsmann, welchen Herkommens, Berufes oder Bildungsstandes er auch
sei, ausschliesslich die Mundart spricht...
Der Deutschschweizer versteht andere schweizerdeutsche Mundarten
verhältnismässig leicht; immerhin hat zum Beispiel ein Zürcher Mühe, einen
Bewohner des Berner Oberlandes oder von Appenzell Inner-Rhoden zu verstehen,
und die deutsche Mundart von Bosco-Gurin (im Kanton Tessin) ist für ihn
praktisch unverständlich; die "Bergler" bedienen sich im Verkehr mit
"Unterländern" oft einer Art Regionalmundart (z.b. __Gemeinberndeutsch__).
... verblassen die Eigenheiten der einzelnen Mundarten immer mehr..
PS: In this 1967 written Swiss German the ß is systematically replaced by ss
in the original (no typing error of mine).
-- B -- Basque (Eskuara)
I found:
- A. Tournier & P. Lafitte, Lexique français-basque, Editions "Herria",
1954, 556 + 12 pp.
- P. Lafitte, Grammaire Basque (__Navarro-Labourdin__ littéraire), édition
revue et corrigér, Bayonne, Editions "Amis du musée basque" et "Ikas", 1962,
491 pp.
In the grammar:
-- quote (in French), p. 5-6:
... le basque n'est pas une langue unifiée, mais un ensemble de dialectes et
de sous-dialectes, qui d'ailleurs se compénètrent inextricablement; les
limites sont difficiles à déterminer, sauf si on se pose à un point de vue
très particulier, comme par-exemple la conjugaison..;
le __labourdin__ passe pour plus littéraire
... exclusivement en __laboudin__ aux XVIIe, XVIIIe et XIXe sièckes... quand
les __Bas-Navarrais__ et même quelques __Souletins__ se sont mis à écrire..
.. les nouveux écrivains ont... dans le cadre d'une morphologie à peu près
__labourdine__, introduits de nombreuw éléments __navarrais__ et même des
vestiges de __souletin__
And in the dictionnary:
... un répertoire pratique du __dialecte littéraire__ commun aux
__Bas-Navarrais__ et aux __Labourdins__.
So apparently there is a tendency to a unified written form (at least at the
French side of the border). Nevertheless there is a big variety of spoken
varieties. Nevertheless nobody contests "Basque-Eskuara" is "language". (Or
am I wrong?)
-- C -- Breton
I found:
- J. Gros, Le trésor du breton parlé (Eléments de Stylistique
__Trégorroise__, Deuxième Partie, Dictionnaire breton-français des
expressions figurées, 1970, Saint-Brieuc, Les Presses Bretonnes, 560 pp
- P.J. Helias, Divizou eun amzer gollet, Devis d'un temps perdu, Emgleo
Breiz, Brest, 1966 150 pp. (bilingual French-Breton)
For the book by Gros, quote (in French):
... phrases.. tirées du breton encore parlé dans les __campagnes du
Trégor__, ... receuillies ... entre 1912 et 1968 de la bouche des paysans et
des marins de la commune de __Trédrez-Locquémeau___, à douze kilomètres au
S.O. de Lannion (Côtes-du-Nord) et incidemment dans quelques autres communes
trégorroises.
>From the book by Helias, quote (in French and Breton), pages 32-33:
- Quel breton parlez-vous?
- Peseurt brezoneg a zo ganeoh?
- Quand les bretons disent qu'ils ne se comprennent pas d'un pays à l'autre,
c'est parce qu'ils ne font pas le moindre effort pour se comprendre.
- Pa lavar ar Vretoned n'en em glevont ket etrezo euz an eil vro d'eben, se
a zo abalamour ne reont ket an nebeuta beh d'en em gleved.
- Il y a quatre grands dialectes en Bretagne.
- Bez ez eus peder rannyez vraz e Breiz.
- Mis è part celui du __Pays de Vannes__ qui demande une adaptation assez
délicate au premier abord, les trois autres se ressemblent plus étroitement
que des frères nés des mêmes parents. Ce sont les dialectes de la
__Cornouaille__, du__Léon__ et du __Tégor (K.L.T.).
- Er-mêz hini __Bro-Wened__, hag a houlenn reiza gantañ diêzig awalh da
genta, an teir all a zo strisoh heñvel etrezo eged c'hoarezed kanet diwar ar
memez kerent: rannyezou __Kerne, __Leon__ ha __Treger (KLT)__.
---
Once more a similar problem.
My basic question remains: does a group of regional dialects need a koiné
for surviving or not? In the past one has announced several times dialects
would disappear, but they did not... So...
But times have changed, there is much more migration, there is large scale
education in the country's national language, there is national TV in the
countries national languages.
One sees in Limburg for the Italian immigrants, the mammas look at the RAI
(Italian TV), the kids look at VRT, Canvas-Ketnet, VTM, TV4 ... Dutch
language programs from the region Vlaanderen.
In Belgian Limburg, more and more parents talk Dutch to their kids but
Limburgish to the grand-parents.
In "Ons Erfdeel" of May-June 1972, pp 57-69. Vanneste published a survey of
the situation of Flemish (dialects) in the North of France (dépt. du Nord).
At that time he found (map p. 68):
- about 45 municipalities pedominantly Flemish
- about 30 municipalities with a strong presence of Flemish.
Now, 30 years later, the street talk is French-only. Just __the old__ can
still be interviewed, for a while, for the purpose of Flemish dictionaries
and for preserving some local idioms for the record.
Dutch was quite strange for these Flemish people, who were submerged in a
French-only environment.
Altogether there has been a very rapid linguistic levelling after WW-II I
think, about everywhere.
But I still wonder to what extent a koiné could help. I guess it can at
least help to get school books printed in economic quantities. Maybe
internet web publishing can distribute some study material at little or no
cost. For wherever it is not too late.
Regards,
Roger
----------
Roger R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language politics
Roger wrote:
> By way of speaking: Does
> __>Bremer Low-Saxon__ have to merge with __Hamburg Low Saxon__ into a unified
> __"Low-Saxon"__ for surviving? Does __Low-Saxon__ have to merge with
> __Westphalian__ into a unified __"Low-German"__ for surviving, as a kind of
> LG Esperanto - or not?
Roger, short and sweet (or not so sweet for some), this is my take:
(1) The eventual death of Low Saxon (Low German) will be due to the absence of a
koiné, a type of standard language, or even just some variety that approaches a
standard. Such a variety would act as a type of glue, the antidote to the
current state of fragmentation.
(2) How such a standard variety is created is less important than *that* it be
created. However, the fairer and less painful the process the better the
acceptance rate ought to be. Merging is an obvious choice. The problem is that
Low Saxon consists of basically four dialect groups that are very different from
each other: North Saxon, Westphalian, Eastphalian and Mennonite Low Saxon
(Plautdietsch). Add to that a fifth: Eastern Low Saxon, which is a
conglomeration of more recently created dialects, based on mixtures of western
varieties with admixtures of German and Slavic. North Saxon ("Northern Low
German") tends to be predominant at the moment, due to number of speakers.
However, that does not necessarily mean that it ought to predominate the
creation of a koiné.
Personally I doubt that standardization will ever come about. Centuries of
neglect, ignorance and indoctrination have created an atmosphere in which people
believe that Standard German serves and should serve as the koiné of Low Saxon
in Germany, and instituting a Low Saxon koiné would mean the end of dialects and
dialect writing. The former is simply ridiculous and not worthy of further
comment, and the latter is simply a false assumption. The existence of a
standard variety may help to decrease the amount of dialect writing, but it does
not make it impossible.
Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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