LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 16.MAR.2000 (01) [E/Ap]
Sandy Fleming
sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk
Thu Mar 16 21:14:32 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 16.MAR.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Mike Adams <abrigon at yahoo.com>
Subject: Washington and all
I almost say Warshington, but it is more an O sound
for me.. Hard to explain and hard for me to recreate
without not thinging about it.. Some of my family is
from Washington, but .. It would be interesting to do
a collection of accent/dielects/lingos from all over
but in a WAV or like format for the net?
Mike
=====
Send me email at: Abrigon at yahoo.com
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Georg Deutsch at ESA
03/16/2000 10:27 AM
In response to Roger's question about Polari, Reinhard (Ron) gave
interesting
information.
For me this also is totally new.
Is there any indication of the age of Polari?
Reinhard, your statement: " Indeed, some of the Romance-derived expression
in
Polari (_polari_ < _parlare_
'to talk', 'to chat') seem to be of Occitan origin..." suggests to me that
it
might be old.
Whilst I am aware that Occitan is not dead at all, I thought that Occitan
is
in such a defensive position since quite some centuries, that it could not
be
expected to contrubute productive to another idiom out of this position. Or
is this conclusion not justified, at least as far it concerns a jargon which
is used by "marginalized members of society"?
kind regards,
Georg
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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties
Georg,
You asked about the age of Polari. The jargon can be traced back to
eighteenth century Britain. Along the way it has been fertilized by
other jargons.
Here is an excerpt from a brief history (http://members.aol.com/frij/):
<quote>
Gay slang in Britain dates back to the involvement of the homosexual
subculture with the criminal "underworld". The homosexual subculture of
the Eighteenth Century mixed with the gypsies, tramps & thieves of
popular song to produce a rich cross-fertilisation of customs, phrases
and traditions. As the Industrial revolution dramatically changed
settlement patterns, more and more people drifted away from villages
and small communities and moved to larger towns in search of work and
opportunity. In these larger urban locations, the scope for the
development of communities of outcasts substantially increased. The
growth of molly houses (private spaces for men to meet, drink, have sex
together and practice communal rituals) encouraged the creation of a
molly identity. A linguistic culture developed, feeding into that
profession traditionally associated with poofs and whores: theatre.
Much of parlarey, the travelling showmen's language, appears to be
derived from the lingua franca or the vocabulary of travelling actors
and showmen during the Eighteenth and Nineteenth Centuries.
Specifically theatrical parlyaree included phrases such as joggering
omee (street musician), slang a dolly to the edge (to show and work a
marionette on a small platform outside the performance booth in order
to attract an audience) and climb the slanging-tree (perform onstage).
Nanty dinarly (having no money) also had a peculiarly theatrical
translation in the phrase "There's no treasury today, the ghost doesn't
walk."
The disappearance of large numbers of traveling costermongers and
cheapjacks by the early twentieth century effectively denied the
language its breathing space. As many of the travelling entertainers
moved sideways into traveling circus, so the language moved with them,
kept alive as a living and changing language within circus culture.
By the mid-twentieth century, there had also been a cross-over to a
recognisably gay form of slang, with polari used by the gay community
to communicate in code in elaborate forms. Words such as trade and ecaf
(backslang for face, shortened to eek) became part of gay subculture.
Blagging trade (picking up sexual partners), zhoosing your riah (doing
your hair), trolling to a bijou bar (stepping into a gay club) and
dishing the dirt (recounting gossip) all became popular coded phrases
to describe and encode an emerging homosexual lifestyle. By the 1950's,
with secret homosexual clubs emerging in swinging London and the
Wolfenden Committee discussing the possibility of law reform around
(homo) sexuality, it seems appropriate that polari should raise its
irreverent head.
Polari became an appropriate tool with which to confuse and confound
the naff omees (straight men). It traveled the world via the sea
queens, who incorporated navy slang into a new version of the language
and also accommodated local dialects and phrases.
</quote>
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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From: Richard L Turner <fr.andreas at juno.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 15.MAR.2000 (03) [E]
Hey Ar!
Jim Gretch writ te ast abouten the pernounciation o "treasure." Hit's
[trEi' Zr]. (Aa cain't caw it te maand... ain't [Z] a voiced [z] laak [S]
is voiced [s]? Aa dumpt the cat durn faal wi SAMPA in it!) Shor enough,
"pleasure" an "measure" foller suit wi it, but "leisure" is pernounst
[lI' Zr]. Any word wi "ei" at sprangs te maand gits pernounst [I].
"Either," "neither," an "leisure" ever one have the same [I] at's in
"seizure"... an the "i" in "mister" [mI' str] an "fish" [fIS].
Yorn,
+Fr Andreas Richard Turner.
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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 15.MAR.2000 (04) [E]
Michael,
I hasten to correct you slightly there (although given the simplified media
coverage, it's an easy mistake to make) - very few Ulster Protestants are of
exclusively Scottish origin (though most of their genes will most likely be
Scottish), they're a bit of a British Isles hybrid, and it's certainly a
vast over-simplification to say they all came over c. 1700 (and they
certainly did NOT come with King James - he was the Catholic one!)
I hasten to add also that many Ulster Catholics ARE in fact of exclusively
Scottish origin (insofar as that's possible), particularly those in the
Glens of Antrim (where Gaelic, in fact, survived into the 20th century, the
only place in what we now call Northern Ireland where it did).
The very point I would make here is that NE Ireland and Scotland have always
had trading exchanges, and indeed several kingdoms have spanned parts of
both. What I am saying is that most people see "Scotland" ending and
"Ireland" beginning at the Irish Sea, but it's nothing like as simple as
that. The transition from Scottish to Irish culture is a gradual one, as is
the shift from Scottish to Irish accent. Looking at place names or family
names in my home town, for example, the outsider would more likely place
himself in "Scotland" than "Ireland" - and would be unlikely to change
his/her mind on hearing people speak!
I would add, historically, that the Northern Irish accent has always been
recorded as notably distinct and more Scottish than the Southern accent -
even before the plantations and in reference to Gaelic. I do not mean to
underplay similarities in all Irish accents, merely to point out
distinctions, even historically, that too often go unnoticed.
A major case for research is that in NE Ulster the accent is almost wholly
Scottish (i.e. it can be mistaken for Scottish even by local linguists) - I
wonder if the culture of the area could be defined as wholly Scottish? I
wonder how the people there view themselves?
Best,
-------------------------------
Ian James Parsley
http://www.gcty.com/parsleyij
"JOY - Jesus, Others, You"
----------
From: Colin Wilson [lcwilson at iee.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"
At 13:25 15/03/00 -0800, R. F. Hahn wrote:
>It is also important to note that quite a few Polari expressions have
filtered
>into other varieties of English, and some of them are now used and
understood
>by the majority of English speakers everywhere. Examples: _trade_ 'sex',
>_troll_ 'to cruise (for sex)',
_Troll_ is also used in discussions in Internet newsgroups to mean a
posting containing inflammatory remarks, not usually meant in sincerity
but rather made simply for the "fun" of eliciting an angry response.
Both senses involke an obvious analogy with fishing, so it's always
seemed to me that it really ought to be spelt "trawl".
Does anyone know of any reason (other than illiteracy) why it's
spelt "troll"?
Colin Wilson.
************ http://www.btinternet.com/~lcwilson/colin.htm ***********
the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin
Colin Wilson the barra wadna row its lane
writin fae Glesca an sicna soss it nivver wis seen
lik the muckin o Geordie's byre
**********************************************************************
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Language varieties"
Colin,
With respect to the words "troll" and "trawl", these are actually different
words with different etymologies (and, at least the way I say them,
different pronunciations - [trol], [trQ:l]). There is some Germanic word
"trollen" meaning to "wander" or "walk with short steps", whereas "trawl" is
from the Latin "tragula", a "drag net", presumably via the Dutch "traghel".
I wonder if the use of "trolling" in Polari was originally a reference to
"mincing", considering the original meaning of the Germanic word?
As fishing terms, "trawling" is catching fish by dragging a net through the
water, "trolling" is done by dragging a hook or lure through the water on a
line.
Sandy
http://scotstext.org
http://www.fleimin.demon.co.uk
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