LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 20.MAR.2000 (03) [D/E/French]

Tue Mar 21 00:38:34 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.MAR.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Peter Stornebrink [frlboppe at direct.ca]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" (was "Language varieties") LOWLANDS-L,
20.MAR.2000 (02) [E]

>Ron wrote:

>From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
>Subject: Etymology
>
>Peter Stornebrink wrote:
>
> >The word "lytje" reminded me of the Frisian word "lyts", as used, for
> >example, in the expression:
> >"in lyts bytsje", "een klein beetje", "un petit peu".
> >
> >I wonder if Flemish "lytje" might be related to the Frisian "lyts"
>
>Peter,
>
>Those are most certainly related.  _Lytje_ is the diminutive form of
*_lyt_
>(which may no longer exist).  You find it preserved in Scandinavian, e.g.
>in Norwegian _lite_ 'little (amount)', _liten_ 'little'.  English _little_

>is also a diminutive derivation (< Old English _l{y^}tel_).  Pre-Modern
>German has _lützel_ (< Old High German _luzzil_).  It is not used in
>Standard German.  In the majority of Low Saxon (Low German) dialects,
>certainly in most North Saxon ones, the normal word for 'little' or
'small'
>is _lütt_ [lYt] (e.g., _de lütte Jung_ 'the little boy').  The Old Saxon
>diminutive derivation _luttil_ does not have a direct descendant in any
>Modern Low Saxon I know of.  Some farwestern dialects of North Saxon have
>_lütt_ like most other dialects (e.g., _'n lütt beten_ 'a little bit', _De

>Jung is lütt_ 'The boy is little') but use what seems like a diminutive
>form in inflections (e.g., _De lüttje Jung_ 'the little boy'; elsewhere
_de
>lütte Jung_).  This _lüttje_ is most definitely a cognate of Flemish
>_lytje_.  The hypothetical Germanic root of all of these is *_lut-_.
>
>By the way, who is the "y" in _lytje_ pronounced?
>
>Regards,
>
>Reinhard/Ron

Ron,
I don't really know how the Flemish pronounce 'lytje'. Roger should be able

to answer that part.
I assume you know the pronunciation of the Frisian word 'lyts' being a
short 'i', like in the Dutch 'fiets'.
I had wondered if the Flemish word originated from Frisian since that
language at one time was spoken all the way along the North Sea coast down
to Northern France, if I am not mistaken. Did the word perhaps originate
somewhere in Scandinavia?

Regards,

Peter Stornebrink Victoria BC, Canada

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Peter Stornebrink asked about *_lut-_:

> Did the word perhaps originate
> somewhere in Scandinavia?

I don't think so, Peter.  I assume it is a part of inherited, common
Germanic.  Of course, *all* Germanic varieties are descendants of varieties
spoken in what nowadays are Denmark and Southern Sweden, an area usually
assumed to be the original homeland of the Germanic people.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Roger P. G. Thijs [roger.thijs at village.uunet.be]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" (was "Language varieties") LOWLANDS-L,
20.MAR.2000 (02) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> Subject: Etymology
> Those are most certainly related.  _Lytje_ is the diminutive form of
*_lyt_
> By the way, who is the "y" in _lytje_ pronounced?
>
That's a difficult question.Pronounciation may vary from village to
village.
As to the magazine the proverbs were recorded about 80 years ago by the
schoolmaster "Verclytte" of "Sint-Mariakappel". "Saint Marie Cappel" is
South of Cassel France.
Quite often the "y" in Flemish is a compromise solution for matching a
local
pronounciation of "i" in West-Flemish and a standard Dutch orthography with

dotted "ij" and pronounced as a diphtongh e-i in standard Dutch.

Sint Mariakappel is in the French __Houtland__.

Marteel, in the variant of the French __Blootland__ gives in his "Cours de
flamand" (dialect of Bray-Dunes; Bray-Duunnen is a relatively new
municipality split off from "Ghyvelde"):

p. 28
y se prononce:
  i quand il n'est pas nasalisé:    styf, wydder, blydde
  i~ (i with tilde) quand il est nasalisé:    zwyn, myn, zyn.

p. 23-24
IPA        French    Flemish
i            vif            styf, winter
i~        i nasalisé    zwyn, wyn

(be aware styf in (West-)Flemish can as wel mean "stijf" in Dutch, but also

"zeer" (very much)).

Odd to me is though "lytje" being written with y, since in that very case,
I
would certainly not transcribe "lijtje" but rather "lutje" since "luttel"
is
still hanging in my head from medieval poetry.

-- Het daghet inden Oosten
(I have stressed a couple of things; I have quoted from this poem before.)

"Het daghet inden Oosten
Het lichtet overal;
Hoe __luttel__ weet mijn liefken,
Och, waer ik henen sal."

"Och warent al mijn vrienden
Dat mijn vianden zijn,
Ick voerde u uuten lande,
Mijn lief, mijn minnekijn."

"Dats waer soudi mi voeren,
Stout ridder welgemeyt?
Ic ligge in myns liefs armkens,
Met grooter waerdichheyt."

"Ligdy in uws liefs armen?
Bilo, ghi _en_ segt _niet_ waer:
Gaet henen ter __linde groene__,
Versleghen so leyt hi daer."

Tmeysken nam haren mantel
Ende si __ghinc eenen ganck__
Al totter __linde groene__,
Daer si den dooden vant.

"Och, li_g_dy hier verslaghen,
Versmoort al in u bloet!
Dat heeft gedaen u roemen
Ende uwen hooghen moet.

"Och, li_ch_dy hier verslaghen,
Die mi te troosten plach!
Wat hebdy mi ghelaten
So menighen droeven dach."

Tmeysken nam haren mantel
Ende si __ghinck eenen ganck__
Al voor haers vaders poorte,
Die si ontsloten vant.

"Och, is hier eenich heere
Oft eenich edel man,
Die mi mijnen dooden
Begraven helpen can?"

Die heeren sweghen stille,
Si _en_ maecten _gheen_ geluyt;
Dat meysken keerde haer omme,
Si ghinc al weenende uut.

Si nam hem in haren armen,
Si custe hem voor den mont,
In eender corter wijlen,
Tot also menigher stont.

Mit sinen blancken swaerde
Dat si die aerde op groef,
Met haer snee witten armen
Ten grave dat si hem droech?

"Nu wil ic mi gaen gbegeven
In een cleyn cloosterkijn,
Ende draghen swarte wijlen,
Ende worden een nonnekijn."

Met hare claer stemme,
Die misse dat si sanck,
Met haer snee witte handen
Dat si dat belleken clanck.

quoted from G. Komrij, ...12e-16e eeuw, p. 985-987

------
an other occurence,  for a "short while": "_lettelkijn_"

...Als si camen vor die duere
Daer de pape wilde zijn:
"Coster, nu moeti hier vuere
Bliven staende een __lettelkijn__.
Haddic ghedaen den wille mijn,
Ic comme tot u sonder chi.
...( "De capelaen van Hedelem", quoted from G. Komrij, ...12e-16e eeuw, p.
198)

Regards,

Roger

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