LL-L: "Historical phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 03.MAY.2000 (04) [E]

Wed May 3 15:26:09 UTC 2000

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at fleimin.demon.co.uk]
Subject: "Historical phonology"

> Examples:   Kinn -> chin
>                   Kse -> cheese
>                   kaufen -> cheap (and the name "Chapman")

Hmmm... in Scots a "chapman" is a door-to-door peddler, ie someone who
"chaps" (knocks) at the door, hence the name "Chapman"!

> I once read somewhere that such usages as "cham" for "I am" and
> "chuld" for "I would" were still found in Somerset (Southern England)
> as recently as the early 1900's.  Perhaps they might still be heard
> today in rural settings?

This is now thought to be confined to a few small villages on the
Somerset-Dorset border where the form "Udge am gwain" (I am going) was
recorded in a linguistic survey carried out in the 1950s. I happen to live
in one of those villages, but people here have no concept of the dialect as
a language, and so these days see no reason to speak anything but the
English they're taught in the schools. I've heard some clear "Zummerzet"
grammatical constructions used by the older residents, but as a newcomer
it's not likely that they'll speak to me the way they do amongst themselves!
And I'm deaf, so there's little chance of eavesdropping  :)

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
http://www.fleimin.demon.co.uk

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From: Mike Adams [abrigon at yahoo.com]
Subject: Wirr and like.

I wonder if it relates to Wyrd, or Wierd. Namely meaning Fate.
But now days meaning odd/different. Of course chaotic might be another
way.

Mike

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From: 3181SAFF [3181SAFF at london-oratory.org]
Subject: Brummagem English

> Another interesting example would be the dialect usage in
> Shakespeare's King Lear, where Edgar uses "'Chill be plain
> with you" for "I will be plain with you."  (I.e. "'chill" short for "Ich
> will,"
> where "Ich" is pronounced [ItS], presumably palatized from an
> earlier [Ik].)
>
> I once read somewhere that such usages as "cham" for "I am" and
> "chuld" for "I would" were still found in Somerset (Southern England)
> as recently as the early 1900's.  Perhaps they might still be heard
> today in rural settings?

Note that in the English of the city and surrounds of Birmingham
("Brummagem)" "Ich" is often still used, and sometime you can hear "Ich
ben" for "I am". This is not to be confused for the Black Country use of
"We am" and "I are", which is a giveaway between the difference between
Brummies and people from, say, Wolverhampton or Dudley.

Andrew Saffrey

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From: 3181SAFF [3181SAFF at london-oratory.org]
Subject: LL-L: "Historical phonology" LOWLANDS-L, 02.MAY.2000 (03) [E]

> Correction: German _kurz_
> Addition: Low Saxon/Low German _kort_ ~ _kott_, Westerlauwers Frisian
_koart_
>
> Are you suggesting that Old English _sceoppa_ (> _shop_) is derived from
the
> word for 'to buy', i.e., contains the elusive _s-_ prefix?  Interesting!

In terms of the verb, yes!

Andrew Saffrey

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Names

John Feather wrote under "Names":

> a) why French has "guêpe" for "wasp" while Italian has "vespa"

I'm not quite sure what your basic assumption is here.  Are you suggesting (1)
that the word for 'wasp' is a Germanic loan in French but not in other Romance
varieties, or (2) that the Germanic word for 'wasp' is a loan in all Romance
varieties but shows the "gu-" phenomenon only in French?  Interestingly, this
word is one of those that in most Germanic varieties underwent metathesis of
/ps/ to /sp/; e.g., Old English _wæpse_ > Middle English _waspe_ > Modern
English _wasp_ -- similarly in German and Dutch.  Pre-metathesized forms are
preserved for instance in Scots _waps_ (~ _waasp_) and Low Saxon (Low German)
_Weps_ ~ _Wöps_ ~ _Wepsch_ (~ _Wesp_).  The word has been linked with the
Indo-European verbal root for 'to weave'.  _Vespa_ already occurs in Latin,
and most Romance varieties have similar forms (also Occitan _vèspa_).  Do
these Romance forms go back to a Germanic loan? Are they inherently Romance
and coincidentally developed metathesis?  Or does metathesis go back to even
earlier time, in which case a few varieties preserved the earlier form?

> b) why Romance had to borrow a word for such an ordinary creature.

Words for lots of apparently ordinary creatures and objects get borrowed.
Think for example of the English name _dandelion_ from Old French
_dent-de-lion_ (< Latin _dens leonis_ 'lion's tooth') for a flower that has
been growing in profusion in the British Isles since before contacts with the
Normans.

Regards,

Reinhard/Ron

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