LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 06.NOV.2000 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
  L O W L A N D S - L * 06.NOV.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
  User's Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
  =======================================================================
  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
  =======================================================================

From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Online resources" LOWLANDS-L, 05.NOV.2000 (01) [LS]

Jan Strunk hef schreven:
>
>ik har al maol för'n paor jaoren miin Websiid künnig maakt,
>dei sik met düütsche spraokgeschicht befatt.
>Nu hev ik dao nog en beetken met bii daon, un ouk ein
>ümfraog över de dialekten fan de neddersassische spraoke.
>Dei ümfraog is teemlich lang, aover wel lust het kan je maol förbiikiken.
>
>Dei adres is:
>
>home.t-online.de/home/strunk/deutschn.htm

Ik heb my daet maal ankekken, mer ik misse so wat klanken dey
in mynen dialekt fuyrkomt, dues ik kan nich allens infuellen.
Ik misse klanken fuyr my woord fuyr "book" en "schole". Ok heb
ik 'nen klank as den Hollandsen korten u as in "dus" (so), "mus"
(sparrow), etc. Verders sprekt wy "daet" (dat, that, das) op  'nen
maneer uut den ik nich met uun schryvwys wyrgeven kan.

groten,
Henry

----------

From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 03.NOV.2000 (01) [E]

It is true that there is not much of an awareness in
Northern Germany that the native language is actually
one and the same of what is called Nedersaksisch in
the Netherlands, although, where I work right one of
my collegues is from a small village north of
Groningen and we find it rather hard to understand
each other in Low Saxon since my dialect is the one
from Rendsborg in Slesvig-Holsten, I use words and a
grammar which is sometimes quite different, since I am
a Danish and Dutch speaker as well it is quite obvious
that the differences stem from seperation and exposion
towards different national states, we use actually a
lot of Danish-like expression in Slesvig-Holsten as
e.g. "toef" which is incomprehensible for Groningers.

The dialects spoken in the south-west of the Low
German speaking area are indeed classified as Low
Franconian, the divide line between Low Franconian, or
"Niederrheinisch" as some people call it, and Low
Saxon goes right through the Ruhr-Valley, the
origional Essen dialect would be Low Franconian
whereas neighbouring Bochum would have Westphalian-Low
Saxon, fact is that those dialects are rarely heard
this day. The Southern border is the Benrath Line
which seperates it from middle-franconian, it runs
from south of Gummersbach, south of
Remscheid/Wermelskirchen, north of
Duesseldorf-Benrath, south of Kaarst-Buettgen,
Korschenbroich-Glehn, Moenchengladbach-Odenkirchen,
Erkelenz and north of Herzogenrath where it crosses
the border into the Netherlands, leaving such towns as
Kerkrade actually attached to middle-Franconian, not
even Low Franconian or Linburgish as it is call there.
It even divides the little official German speaking
part of Belgium with Eupen having a Linburgish
speaking dialect and Raeren a middle-Franconian one,
therefore correctly Eupen should be part of the Dutch
speaking area of Belgium but due to the fact that
Eupen-Malmedy were part of Germany before WW 1 it is
officially German speaking. More information to this
subject can be found scientifically by the excellent
works of the Low Franconian linguist Theodor Frings
who was from Viersen-Duelken.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Helge, Lowlanders,

Thanks for the explanation above.  I knew about "Low Frankish" dialects
being lumped together with Low Saxon ones under "Low German" in Germany.
However, recent assertion of Limburgish (thus in your words "Middle
Frankish," which I would probably call "Central Frankish," because "Middle"
tends to be used as a temporal term) and "news" of the "Low German"
dialects of Krefeld, Viesche/Viersen, etc. being of this Limburgish type
had made me wonder if both Low Frankish (Dutch) and Central Frankish
(Limburgish) dialects had been lumped together with Low Saxon, or only one
of them.  Unless I misunderstood you, the answer is that it is *both*
types.

Of course, as Roger had already explained, if nationally centralized
language policies persist for long enough, a powerless language through
whose area an international border runs will, if it does not disappear
altogether, eventually be split along that border, and influences from the
respective power languages will make two (or more) languages out of it.
However, the question is exactly at what point this separation can be
pronounced as having happened.  In my opinion, this depends on whom you
ask, i.e., what a person's mindset, exposure, attitudes and ideals are.  It
depends on how far removed that person's own dialect is from the ones on
the other side.  It depends on the amount of exposure that person has had
to the dialects and to the power language on the other side.  It depends on
whether or not the person you ask is familiar with the orthographic
conventions of the other side.  It depends on whether or not the person you
ask *wants* the language to remain whole across the artificial boundary or
if he/she believes in the traditional European ideal of "one country = one
ethnicity = one language" and chooses to view the split as a fait
accompli.  I would go as far as saying that this latter type of person
would perhaps also go along with the claim that Mennonite Low Saxon/German
(Plautdietsch) does not belong to the same language.

If you ask a Low Saxon/Low German speaker from near the Danish or Polish
border if they think Low Saxon dialects of Groningen, Drenthe, Twente or
Overijssel are part of the same language they would probably answer in the
negative, especially if this whole topic area is new to them and if they
are unfamiliar with Dutch orthography.  If you ask a speaker of a dialect
of, say, Emsland, Eastern Friesland or Western Westphalia, they are far
more likely to agree that their dialects and the ones on the other side are
related, especially if orthography is not an issue.  If you suddenly expose
a German speaker from, say, Flensburg, Rostock, Dresden or Vienna to an
Alsatian dialect from France or to Luxemburgish (Lëtzebuergesh), they would
probably understand little to nothing, and they would probably believe you
if you said that they were different languages rather than German, even
though most scholars still consider these dialects German.  It is because
the German speakers you ask have rarely, if ever, heard these dialects and
because they are full of "foreign" influences.  Likewise, a West Coast
American who tends to watch MTV rather than public TV, would probably not
contradict you if you claimed that "unpolished" Scottish English (not
Scots), Ulster English, Indian English, Singaporean English or even some
dialects of England, to which you suddenly exposed them without
explanation, are not English but something else.

In a nutshell then, exposure and mindset are crucial.  They are not finite
but can be changed.

Best regards,

Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
  You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
  request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
  as message text from the same account to
  <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  =======================================================================
  * Please submit contributions to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
  * Contributions will be displayed unedited in digest form.
  * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
  * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
    to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
    <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
  * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
    type of format, in your submissions
  =====================================================================