LL-L: "Anglo-Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 16.NOV.2000 (01) [E/F]

Thu Nov 16 15:36:22 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 16.NOV.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
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From: Helge Tietz [helgetietz at yahoo.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Anglo-Frisian" (was "Offline resources") LOWLANDS-L,
15.NOV.2000 (04) [E]

> From: Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net]
> Subject: LL-L: "Offline resources" LOWLANDS-L,
> 15.NOV.2000 (01) [E]
>
> I am just beginning to study Old English or Englisc
> 'as a foreign language'
> and there seems to be much academic debate
> concerning its pronunciation.  I
> have noticed that, aside from subtleties in
> spelling, Frisian is very, very
> similar to Englisc vocabulary wise.  does anyone
> have an idea of how close
> the pronunciation of the two languages is believed
> to be?  I am beginning to
> believe that studying the two languages concurrently
> could be a good
> strategy.
>
> Ic thancas thu,
>
> Ethan Barrett

This is indeed a good question how old English was
pronounced. You find bits of it still remaining in
mainland europe along the North-Sea-Coast and in some
remote dialects of Lowland Scots as well as you find
it in Irish and American pronounciation, namely the
post-vocalic-r pronounciation which has disappeared
from most English dialects, from Low Saxon, Danish and
Frisian spoken in North-Frisland, Dutch has still a
postvocalic-r pronounciastion, how this is pronounced
in the Provincie Fryslan I'm not certain. Comparing my
native Low Saxon dialect from Rendsborg and North
Frisian spoken by my relatives it contains all the
diphtongs found in Southern English dialects but has a
consonant pronounciation which is actually very close
to Geordie, the dialect of Tyneside in England, assume
Old English must have sounded like a cross of Lowland
Scotts and North Frisian in many ways, varying of
course with the south of England having probably all
the dithtongs which we have in Slesvig-Holsten. Then
again, how the Scandinavian settlers influenced
English pronounciation is difficult to say, even
though a lot of linguits would disagree, I believe it
is due to their influence that English has almost
entirely lost the gh-pronounciation, similar to German
ch, e.g. "Nacht" and "night", the Scandinavian
languages do not have any gh-sound either, therefore
could it be ... . Well, in the end one can only
speculate and look for the most conservative English
dialects and those are probably Lowland Scots (which
even includes a gh-pronounciation) and, as far as I
know, some remote dialects in the Appalachians in
Virginia, US. Hope that helps a bit. A good way of
comparing the modern Lowland languages is the
introductions to the state of Slesvig-Holsten which is
now usually in five languages (German, Low Saxon,
Frisian, Danish and English), very impressive
remembering that it was in German only not too long
ago. The University of Kiel in my home state in
Slesvig-Holsten is another good source for more
information, check as well in Ljouwert (Leeuwarden)
and Groningen in the Netherlands as well.

----------

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Anglo-Frisian" (was "Offline resources")

Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net] wrote:

> I am just beginning to study Old English or Englisc 'as a
> foreign language'
> and there seems to be much academic debate concerning its
> pronunciation.  I
> have noticed that, aside from subtleties in spelling, Frisian
> is very, very
> similar to Englisc vocabulary wise.  does anyone have an idea
> of how close
> the pronunciation of the two languages is believed to be?

Circa 400 AD, they were essentially one language; by the heyday
of Old English (800-1000), they must have been very similar>  By
the time of Old [sic] Frisian (1200-1600's), they are still
quite similar: Kentish dialect and Old West Frisian look like
dialects of each other.
One thing to bear in mind is that both Old/Middle English and
Old Frisian had multiple dialects and continued to change over
time, diverging more and more as time went on.  And the modern
Frisian languages/dialects have diverged that much more,
naturally.

Some of the debate about Old English stems from this change over
time (when did kirkja become kjirkja become "chircha" etc.) or
over place: Kentish or West Saxon or Northumbrian variants.
Some of the uncertainty in pronunciation does stem from trying
to reconstruct a spoken language from written documents.

In any event, try reading some Old Frisian alongside Middle
English, and you'll see how alike they were even after the Old
English period.

Here's some Old Frisian, concerning Judgement Day/Doomsday:

Thit send tha fiftine tekna, there er domes-di koma skilun,
there sancte Jeronimus fand e-skrivin an thera Jothona bokon.
Thes erosta dis, sa stigath alle wetir fiuwertich fethma bova
alle bergon and stondath to likere wis and thiu mure, ther fon
stene e-wrocht is.
Thes othere dis, sa werthath-se lik there selva skipnese,
ther-se bi-fara weron.
Thes thedda dis fallath-se alsa side, thet-se nen age bi-sia ne
mi.
Thes fiarda dis, sa somniat-se alle fiskar, ther send an tha
wetiron to-semine, and hropath al to godi, and tha stifne net
nen manniska buta god al-ena.
Thes fifta dis burnath alle wetir, fon asta there wralde to
westa there wralde.
Thes sexta dis, sa send alle bamar and alle gerso mith ena
blogida dawe be-fangen.
Thes siugunda dis, sa fallath alle that timber, fon asta there
wralde to westa there wralde, and werthath al-gadur to-breken.
Thes achtunda dis, sa falt thi sten withir thene sten and
to-brekth al-semin, and that berga werthat eifnad.

And it just gets worse from there through the 15th sign/token.

You can see the similarities to Middle English; though Germanic
*ai yields long e in Frisian (sten vs. staan/stone, Germ. Stein)
and Gmc. *au yields long a (ast, bam  vs. east, beam, German
Ost, Baum), and bright a (the a in American _cat_) becomes e, as
was the case in Kentish.

> Ic thancas thu,

! pardon the grammar feedback:),  the endings are a little
mixed: you could have:
  thu thancas mi, ic thancige the
(thou thankest me, I thank thee),  and what you wished to
express:
Ic thancige iow  (iow = you all)

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

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