LL-L: "Anglo-Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 18.NOV.2000 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 18.NOV.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Ethan Barrett [barrett at kitcarson.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Anglo-Frisian" LOWLANDS-L, 18.NOV.2000 (01) [E]

>Just out of curiosity how was the <th> (assumedly) pronounced?
>
>Was <th> actually written <th> in the original or was it maybe eth or
>thorn?
>
>Andy Eagle

The 'th' sould is very old, prehistoric, and is assumed to have been
pronounced the same as in Modern English.  It was represented by the
'thorn'
rune or the 'eth' symbol, which were used interchangedly by scribes even in

the same sentance!  There are some OE words that use a double-thorn, as in
oþþe (= either, or), and I assume this 'thth' to have been pronounced
precisely the same way as it is pronounced today as in 'either'.

Ethan Barrett

----------

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Anglo-Frisian"

> From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
> Subject: "Anglo-Frisian"  [E]

> > Here's some Old Frisian, concerning Judgement Day/Doomsday:

> Just out of curiosity how was the <th> (assumedly) pronounced?
>
> Was <th> actually written <th> in the original or was it maybe
> eth or thorn?

The Frisians used <th> (manuscripts are c. 1200-1600); the use
of thorn had long since been lost on the continent.  The
pronunciation, at least in the earlier centuries, does appear to
have been as in English _thick and thin_, or like _this and
that_ in pronouns and some adverbs (thu, ther etc.).  Only later
does it seem to have hardened into t or d; I don't know when
precisely that happened.  For that matter, it probably happened
at different times in the different dialects.

I recall hearing that in one North Frisian dialect, Germanic þ
showed up as _s_ after WWII.  The thought was that this
community had maintained þ through 1945 (unlikely but not
impossible), but then when German refugees flooded into the
island (or mainland village?), the closest they could come to þ
was [s], which replaced þ.   Can anyone comment on if that
actually happened as I heard it?

Another note on þ/thorn: the English and Icelanders continued to
use <þ>; in late Middle English, writers didn't always close the
top of the circle of the thorn, making it look like a <y>.
Printers didn't inherit have thorn in the lettering sets, so
they sometimes substituted <y>, thus _THE olde shop_ came to be
written _YE olde shop_, and later generations innocently have
pronounced <ye> as [ji:].
Such is the twisted path of English orthography.

Stefan Ysrael

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Anglo-Frisian

Andy Eagle asked:

>Just out of curiosity how was the <th> (assumedly) pronounced?
>
>Was <th> actually written <th> in the original or was it maybe eth or
>thorn?

Andy, Lowlanders,

The sound was most probably an interdental voiceless fricative as it is in
Modern English (e.g., 'thick').  Yes, it was written as Þ or þ (as opposed
to Ð or ð for the voiced equivalent, as in Modern English 'that').

These interdentals are assumed to have existed in both West German and
Germanic.  Among the known (i.e., written) "Old" Germanic varieties, Old
(High) German and Old Low Franconian (Old Dutch) appear to be the only ones
that shows variation between written _th_ and _d_, the _th_ assumedly
standing for a voiced fricative; e.g., O(H)G _thâr_ ~ _dâr_ 'there'., OLF
_warth_ ~ _ward_ 'became'.   Old Norse, Old English, Old Saxon and Old
Frisian retained differentiation between the voiceless and the voiced
varieties.  However, Old Frisian did not distinguish them orthographically
but wrote both of them as _th_.  This is the case also in some Old Saxon
documents, while others distinguish between _th_ for the voiceless one and
_ð_ for the voiced one; so you find 'worthy' written as _wirthig_ or
_wirðig_ in Old Saxon.  This voiced fricative had become a stop, _d_, by
the Middle (Low) Saxon stage, as also in German, Dutch and Frisian.

Stefan wrote:

> I recall hearing that in one North Frisian dialect, Germanic þ
> showed up as _s_ after WWII.  The thought was that this
> community had maintained þ through 1945 (unlikely but not
> impossible), but then when German refugees flooded into the
> island (or mainland village?), the closest they could come to þ
> was [s], which replaced þ.   Can anyone comment on if that
> actually happened as I heard it?

Stefan, might you be thinking of an Insular North Frisian variety, namely
of Sylt Frisian (Sölring) where there is a phoneme that is written either
as _ð_ or as a barred _d_ (e.g., _faðer_ 'father', _bröðer_ 'brother')?
I'm not sure how it is pronounced in the modern language, but I vaguely
remember that it was [j] or [z], assumedly derived from interdental [ð].  I
have never heard about the use of _þ_ in North Frisian.  I'd be very
interested to find out more in case it is true.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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