LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 22.NOV.2000 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.NOV.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Literature"

Ron heff schreben:

> [...] This and the title of the tale ("Von dem Fischer un
syner
> Fru") as well as
> some phrases in the text itself are either archaic or they are
> suspect, i.e.,
> inaccurately recorded.  It could well be that marking genitive
> case was still
> "high" style at the time.  I have observed it in Low Saxon/Low
> German
> storytelling and writing a couple of times even now (e.g.,
> _mit miener Fru_
> for _mit mien Fru_ 'with my wife').

I have seen that in Platt of the 1700's.  Although Platt had
lost the dative circa 1700, it still crops up sporadically
throughout the 1700's, including in works in Platt praising and
defending Platt against High German.

I can't tell how much is imitation of older hanseatic written
style, how much is influence from reading High German, and how
much High German crept into at least the middle class's Platt.
Certainly the colloquial derounding of umlaut spread from High
Germany into middle class Platt (e.g. someone wrote "klönen,
oder klaenen, wie wir das sagen".

Of course, our sources of Platt before 1800 comes mostly from
middle class sources (mostly humorous poems for weddings etc.),
so it's unclear whether the working population abandoned the
cases faster or slower.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

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From: Henry Pijffers [hpijffers at home.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Literature" LOWLANDS-L, 21.NOV.2000 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
>Original:
>
>    Manntje, Manntje, Timpe Te,
>    Buttje, Buttje in der See,
>    Myne Fru, de Ilsebill,
>    Will nich so, as ik wol will.

<snip/>

>Is there a Dutch version?  There should be.  How about this "draft"?  ;)
>
>     Mannetje, mannetje, timpe tee,
>     Botje, botje in de zee.
>     Mijn lieve vrouw, de Ilsebil,
>     Wil niet zoals ik wel wil.
>
Shouldn't "botje" be "bootje". In my LS we have "buetje" (with ue representing
Dutch short u) for "botje" (bone), and "böötje" for "bootje" (little ship).
And I don't see the LS word for "lieve" in the original version.
As for the rest, I think it's a good translation :)

regards,
Henry

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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Literature

Henry kindly responded to my translation:

> >Is there a Dutch version?  There should be.  How about this "draft"?  > ;)
> >
> >     Mannetje, mannetje, timpe tee,
> >     Botje, botje in de zee.
> >     Mijn lieve vrouw, de Ilsebil,
> >     Wil niet zoals ik wel wil.
> >
> Shouldn't "botje" be "bootje". In my LS we have "buetje" (with ue > representing
> Dutch short u) for "botje" (bone), and "böötje" for "bootje" (little > ship).
> And I don't see the LS word for "lieve" in the original version.
> As for the rest, I think it's a good translation :)

We *are* talking about Dutch, aren't we?  Low Saxon (many dialects in Northern
Germany) has _Butt_ (_but_ [bUt]) 'flatfish', 'butt', 'fluke', 'dab',
'flounder', 'halibut' (vs _Boot_ [bo:t] 'boat').  It's the fish we are talking
about here, namely the execrated prince in the shape of a giant flatfish that
grants the fishermen his wife's wishes until he gets fed up with her greed.  I
guess the fish is _bot_ in your dialect.  Isn't it also _bot_ in Dutch?  I
recently glanced through the Dutch translation of Günter Grass' book _Der
Butt_, and the title was _De bot_.

Incidentally, I understand that this work of Günter Grass' is inspired by this
tale.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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