LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 30.NOV.2000 (01) [E/Ap]

Wed Nov 29 15:31:45 UTC 2000

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 30.NOV.2000 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Criostoir O Ciardha [paada_please at yahoo.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 29.NOV.2000 (03) [E]

A chairde,

This debate over language and dialect has been
invigorating and I thought it might be time to
re-introduce one of my more brattish contentions.

To me, the answer to the question is very simple - a
variant is a "language" if its speakers deem it so.
Likewise, it is a "dialect" if that is what they feel
most comfortable with. If we look at the case of
Serbo-Croat, where three mutually intelligible
variants are now referred to as Croatian, Bosnian and
Serbian in the territories of Croatia,
Bosnia-Hercegovina and Yugoslavia respectively, by
different ethnic groups, the reasoning becomes clear.
Similarly the case of eastern Catalan in Valencia.

We have in contrast, however, that a number of
mutually intelligible language may be lumped together
as "dialects" of one theorised "language" for reasons
of national consciousness, solidarity, or unity in
discord. This has been the case with Basque, Arabic,
Albanian etc.

Language versus dialect really depends on no objective
terms or sciebtific reality - simply on what its
speakers decide it to be. And they, after all, are the
true arbiters of right and wrong in such matters.

What do you all think?

Thanks,

Críostóir.

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From: Richard L Turner [fr.andreas at juno.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 29.NOV.2000 (03) [E]

Hey.

Ron writ:
"However, if Appalachian is a dialect, is it a dialect of English or of
Scots, since it is a mixed variety?  If we assume that English and Scots
are separate languages (though very closely related ones), then this
would beg the question what a mixed English-Scots variety is: language or
dialect, and if a dialect, of which."

    They's a raft o thankin on sech a question, een amongst arselves. Dr
Michael Montgomery says at Appalachian is a dialect o Inglish wi a Scots
underlayment. A say hit's tother way round. O course he's a Perfesser an
aw, but bein as he's a gracious feller tae boot, he's neer said a ill
word tae me fer a-holdin tae the contrary.
     Tother thang, Jim, is at ye writ at ye could foller a Tennesseean er
a Kentuckian athout mistakin his meanin. A don't doubt ye one whit, A'm
the same by Scotch an Ullans (Shetlandic still thows me a curve er two),
but do ye know ye're a-tawkin about two distinct dialects thar? The
Kentuckian is a Central Appalachian. Tennesseans is Southern
Appalachians. A kin heer the differ.
     Cuid be at Appalachian ain't a language o hit's own sinst they's no
litertur tae tawk of nor any larnin o hit in grammar school (they're
still a-shamin us outen hit hyir), but A do reckon at hit's past a
dialect o either Inglish er Scotch sinst hit's growed moren a few words
an eejums o hit's own.
     A bin loath tae write two words taegether o late. A'm sorry tae be
out o touch, but jist about as sorry tae be a-writin this, too. Hit's a
mite haurd sometime fer us hillbillies tae look up fum ar shoes. They's a
need fer the native's voice tae be heerd occasional, tho. This mornin A
heered a ferriner girl (Florida) git laughed at fer a-sayin "Briar" as
[brai at r] instead o [brQr]. We may yet larn her.

Yorn,
+Fr Andreas Richard Turner.

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From: mathieu van woerkom [mathieuvanwoerkom at hotmail.com]
Subject: language variety

Roger wrote:

>2. The dialect of Vliermaal is a Limburgish dialect
>is correct, I guess, but:
>The dialect of Vliermaal is a dialect OF Limburgish
>is hard to say,since Limburgish has no koinè (not yet?)
>Does the occurence of a koinè justify using "OF", or better:
>Is the existence of a koinè necessary for "OF" being applicable.

I don't think the existence of a koine is necessary for "OF" being
applicable. To me, when I hear Limburgisch it's clear that it's a seperate
(regional) language, not a variety of Dutch at all. (maybe some Limburgers
feel differently about that, because when they think of 'a seperate
language', they think of big languages like French or German -Wallonie and
Germany are very close to Limburg- and not of their own.) Anyway, the fact
that a koine is not used, doesn't take away the linguistic features the
Limburgisch dialects have in common as a language.
(by the way, there is a group of people that is developping a Limburgisch
kione (just for writing, not for speaking -because that's not necessary),
but so far the (Netherlands) Limburgisch government doesn't like the idea of a
koine. If you would like information about the koine, LHMC.
Geurten at prvlimburg.nl is the e-mail address of a member of PNL, a
political party that wishes to introduce this koine throughout Limburg, just
like what happened in Friesland.)

About a kione being necessary to speak of "dialect OF": e.g. the dialect of
the Island of Schiermonnikoog has always been considered to be Frisian, also
before the Frisian kione was developped a century ago.
In short: if you can speak of a seperate language, you can easily speak of
"dialect OF", even though a kione is not (yet) in use.

Groeten,
Mathieu

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