LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 04.SEP.2000 (03) [S]
Lowlands-L
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Mon Sep 4 18:39:06 UTC 2000
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L O W L A N D S - L * 04.SEP.2000 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.SEP.2000 (01) [S]
Sandy wrate:
> Subject: "Standardization"
> A hiv ca'd thegither a database application that'll make a list
> o wirds fae plain text files. It can be fair enlichtenin ti filter
> on various soonds an study the collection o wirds that haes them.
> A hinna haed muckle time ti actually dae this, but for example,
> in filterin on "ch" & "gh" thegither an separatin aa thae wirds
> inti different orthographic uisages, A noticed that oot o a list
> o mibbie a hunder words wi the [nS] soond in them, aa wis spelled
> wi /nch/ forby "glunsh" an "dunsh". This lat me see that rare
> "Scots-only" spellins like "glunsh", "dunsh" an (jist in
> post-OorWullian writin, A doot) "Frensh" is irreglar spellins
> an should be written "glunch", "dunch" an "French" - the'r nae
> need for this irregularity for that the'r nae [ntC] consonant
> clister in Scots ava. Ye see the advantage o text ower dictionars
> here - the dictionars haes juist wirds peculiar ti Scots an sae
> disna lat ye see the hale pictur.
Nou that is something A hadna taen tent tae afore. Gaun bi whit a fund in
ma
wirdleets <nch> it shoud be.
Its a semple rule <nch> = /nS/. The ae exception A coud finnd wis Sooth
Scots 'grunch' [gru:nZ]
>
> A dinna ken what this says aboot hou "glumsh/glumch" should be
> spelled, tho! A think "glumchin" micht be in danger o gittin
> soondit "glum chin" bi some!
Mibbies haud wi the <sh> spellin here. The onlie wirds A coud finnd wis
glumsh, ramsh an ?tumshie?
>
> A dinna ken aboot sortin oot the -ie/-y prablems bi leukin ower
> auld texts, tho. Alexander Montgomerie's late Middle Scots seems
> ti uise aither (fae "The Cherrie and the Slae", but tak tent that
> the spellin varies amang aerly manuscrips):
A haed a scance ower hou -ie/-y wis uised in the Manual o Modren Scots. Aa
throu-ither. Nae rhyme nor raison. Tho diminutives wis mair like tae
be -ie. This disna help us onie, but it seems this mixter maxter o -ie/-y
haes aye been wi's.
----------
From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 03.SEP.2000 (01) [S]
Ian wrate:
> Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.SEP.2000 (01) [S]
>
> John Tait wrote:
>
> > The boddom line here is at the word disna hae an 'ae soond' except
> in
> > dialects whaur the oreiginal phoneme happens ti hae merged wi that
> soond.
>
> Bot hou dis this maitter? A'm no allouan hit haes an 'ae soond', A'm
> juist sayan that wae ma seistem, final -ae is equivalent tae
> medial -ui- in the written leid. A'm uisean the -ae spellin in this
> final poseetioun acause hit's the commonmaist form in modren
> screiveins, no fur onie phonological groonds.
>
> Thai wud then be a case fur haean the spellins 'ti', 'wi' etc. fur tae
> show the differ atween thaim an 'dae' an siclik. Bot we'r loassan mind
> o the fact at we'l niver get a seistem whar aa the soonds bes richtlie
> tae represent - whit we'r wantan is a 'gremmatical seistem' sae as
> 'native speakers' can read thair leid easie eneuch, an larnars disna
> kim/come foondert wae orra gremmatical differs in spellin.
A think we maun juist thole spellins like adae, dae, shae an tae. Thay're
sae weel-kent.
Thare's no monie wirds whaur this 'exception' occurs sae shoud be eith
eneuch tae mynd.
Dis onie bodie ken onie ithers wi final <ae> = <ui>?
Andy
----------
From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 02.SEP.2000 (01) [S]
John M. Tait wrate:
> Subject: LL-L: "Standardization" LOWLANDS-L, 31.AUG.2000 (02) [S]
>
> Ian wrate:
>
> >A canna gae wae ye thar, Sandy. A niver seen 'dae' spelt 'dui' in onie
> >leeteratur, no fae the last 250 yeir in Airlann oniehou. Unner ma
> >seistem, A wud uise -ae at the enn o a wurd fur tae show the ae soond
> >as -ui- in the mids o a wurd. Bot 'dae' is the 'base form', an fae
> >thar, fur a reglar paradigm, ye maun chynge 'duin' tae 'daen'. Else
> >hit aa gits owre complicate.
>
<sned>
> Coorse, thare micht be a case for uisin a morphological spellin like
<daed>
> in spite o this, gin the vowel o the base form wis /e/ - juist like I wad
> threip for <haes> an <haed> frae <hae>, raither nor <his> an <hid>. But
the
> underlyin vowel in <hae> IS /e/, whaurbyes the ane in <dae> isna. Gin ye
> wis spellin Ullans as a sindrie leid, thare wad be a case for
> dae-daed-daen; but bi the same threip thare wad be a case for daein awa
wi
> the UI spellin aathegither, gin it heas merged wi /e/ aawey in Ulster (I
> hinna time evenou ti check the LSS).
This <ui> vouel haes sindrie pronounciations athort Ulster.Accordin tae
Gregg the follaein realisations kythes in Ulster:
Mid Antrim, North Airds, pairts o Co. Doun. /I/ short, /e/ lang. (Teepical
central Scots)
North Antrim an pynts in nor' east Lunnonderry. Aye /e:/. Siclike is kent
in Scotsland an aa. In Fife ye hae [skel] schuil etc, tho the central Scots
pronouciations haes made inroads aa the wey up the east coast intae Angus,
Sae ye aft finnd a differ atween aulder an yunger speakers.
Co. Donegal, Mid Airds an wast of Strangford Lough Co. Doun. Aye /i/ short,
an /i:/
whan lang. This haes nocht adae wi the NE /i/. Its an aulder form that
survives on the 'periphery'. guid an cuit etc. is [gid] an [kit] an no
[gwid] an [kwit] lik in the NE.
Siccan seemlar aulder /i/ is kent in Wigtonshire an aa.
The same hauds for 'dae', shae' an 'tae'. Interestin eneuch, 'muive' haes
[me:v] an [mi:v] in Ulster. In central Scots [me:v] wad be predictit but
onlie [mu:v] kythes. Aiblins juist anglifeein. [mi:v] is kent in the NE.
A coudna finnd 'uise' an 'uiss' in Gregg's warks. The LAS III aye gied
varients o /ju-/, /jy-/ an /jIy-/. This o course micht coud juist be akis o
anglifeein
an aa. Tho A wad like tae ken gin (foondit on whit A wrate abuin) the
follaein kythes in Ulster (Quote soorce):
[e:z] or [je:z], [i:z] or [ji:z] an [Is] or [jIs], [e:s] or [je:s], [i:s]
or
[ji:s]?
Sandy wrate:
> Subject: "Standardization"
> Weel, here ane that's been batherin me!
>
> It's generally acceptit amangst Scots enthusiasts that the
> best wey o representin the soond [u] is wi /ou/. In theory
> this is supposed ti reglarise modern Scots spellin bi daein
> awa wi the appearinly random uise o "ou" an "ow" ti represent
> thae soonds in aulder, espeecially the mair sel-consciously
> "literary", texts. In practice, this disna happen - few modern
> Scots writers can bring theirsels ti write "about", "out" for
> [V'bu?], [u?] an aa that. This means that the kin o spellin
> maist o us is uisin the nou is baith inconsistent an lippens
> (erseroads) til English spellins.
>
Some writers dis aye uise <ou>. A dinna find that a problem masel.
A juist uise <oo> whan A think raivelment wi the suddron pronounciation
micht occur.
> A think that the chyce o /ou/ abuin /oo/ is liker snobbery
> than ony sickar orthographic principle. Late 20th Century
> Scots readers maistly sees /ou/ in Burns (an if they read
> mair in Scots, ither literary writers an aa) an sees /oo/
> maistly in comics the likes o "Oor Wullie" an "The Broons".
>
> Altho /ou/ (an aftwhiles /ow/) dis seem ti be uised aa the
> road up until Stevenson, the late Victorian & Edwardian
> revivalists haed nae sic qualms. In typin in Gibb's Sermons,
> for example, A'm haein ti chainge "oo" til "ou" (an whiles "ui")
> aa the time (the'r ae notable exception in Gibb - he aye writes
> "throwe" for "throu", that A doot means he soondit it [TrVu]).
> Likwice, maist (or as faur's A'v seen, mibbie even aa) o the
> great prose writers o this era uises the /oo/ spellin vernear
> aawey (eg, fae Gibb: hoose, coo, hoo, clood... - an mind that
> this is frae sermons written in a sel-conciously oratorial
> style, it's no attemptin the comical effeck o "Betty's Trip
> tae Edinbury" at aa!).
>
> A wonder if it isna time we lat lowss o oor post-OorWullian
> nories an startit uisin a mair consistent (an for maist Scots,
> mair coothie (there! A did it!)) spellin that disna lippen ti
> English (or at laest disna _hiv_ ti ti leuk Scots!).
>
> A ken there some adjustments can be made ti this idea - for ae
> thing in some dialecks "cou" is soondit [kVu] an aa that. Andy's
> site suggests that this happens at the end o wirds. Say we micht
> uise /ou/ for this. Folk in ither dialecks could still write it
> bi uisin the rule that this spellin is uised at the end o a word,
> an that wad even cover Gibb's "throwe"!
Thon final <ou> /Vu/ is Soothren Scots. Tho it micht hae been uised ower a
braider area in the bygane.
Ye coud o coorse juist say that final <oo> is pronounced /Vu/ is soothren
Scots.
It true that the 'comic Scots' that maist fowk sees is maist aye wrutten
<oo>.
Whit aboot spellins lik 'loup' for lowp? A uise <ow> an <owe> final
bowster-
nowt - howes
an knowes.
> A'm no sayin A wad masel write this aathegither reglar - or
> even can jook lippenin ti English whiles. A example o this
> is the English "thou". A wad gae uisin the irreglar spellin
> "thoo" in Scots, wi hou maist Scots nouadays, unfamiliar wi
> the word, wad gae readin it wrang itherwice. But this is a
> exception necessitated bi the fack that it's a maistly obsolete
> wird, an say guidance on the maist uisual soondin is nott.
>
> Anither thing is, dis "coothie" suggest *['ku:DI] raither nor
> ['kuTI]? - aiblins some thocht anent the SVLR wad be a idea.
Sinderin atween /u/ / /u:/ <ou>/<oo>?
> A hiv ca'd thegither a database application that'll make a list
> o wirds fae plain text files. It can be fair enlichtenin ti filter
> on various soonds an study the collection o wirds that haes them.
> A hinna haed muckle time ti actually dae this, but for example,
> in filterin on "ch" & "gh" thegither an separatin aa thae wirds
> inti different orthographic uisages, A noticed that oot o a list
> o mibbie a hunder words wi the [nS] soond in them, aa wis spelled
> wi /nch/ forby "glunsh" an "dunsh". This lat me see that rare
> "Scots-only" spellins like "glunsh", "dunsh" an (jist in
> post-OorWullian writin, A doot) "Frensh" is irreglar spellins
> an should be written "glunch", "dunch" an "French" - the'r nae
> need for this irregularity for that the'r nae [ntC] consonant
> clister in Scots ava. Ye see the advantage o text ower dictionars
> here - the dictionars haes juist wirds peculiar ti Scots an sae
> disna lat ye see the hale pictur.
>
> A dinna ken what this says aboot hou "glumsh/glumch" should be
> spelled, tho! A think "glumchin" micht be in danger o gittin
> soondit "glum chin" bi some!
>
R. F. Hahn wrate:
> A masel vote fer writin "ou" only gin the English cognate has "ou". Bit
ma
> vote disna coont ... oops! ... count. ;)
Whit for shoud your vote no coont?
Andy
----------
From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Standardization
Andy wrate:
> Whit for shoud your vote no coont?
Cause A wis makin game an sayed the contrair o what's ma thocht. The Scots
_ou_ rule is lik the _Dehnungs-H_ rule in Laich Saxon spellin.
Regarirds,
Reinhard/Ron
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