LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (06) [E]

Mon Sep 18 03:19:49 UTC 2000

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Etymology"

David Strommen wrote, quoting me:

> I was interested in the word "bairns" in your Scots quote "bairns
> are ti be seen an no heard", is this the common Scots word for
children?
> the Nordic
> word for children is barn with various plurals.  Did Scots get this
from
> us?

Yes indeed. Scots is descended from Old Northumbrian, a language
established partly by the Nordic settlers north of the river Humber in
England. The
kingdom of Northumbria eventually stretched all the way to the Firth of
Forth. The ancestors of these people were, for example, the famed
viking Ragnar Shaggybreeks (Loðbrok I think it was in my Old Norse reader,
though I've forgotten the diacritics!).

The village I'm from in Scotland is called Ormiston. Enough said!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From: Family Lindley [john at lindley-york.freeserve.co.uk]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (01) [E]

Hi all

David Strommen asked:
" I was interested in the word "bairns" in your Scots quote "bairns are ti
be
seen an no heard", is this the common Scots word for children?  the Nordic
word for children is barn with various plurals.  Did Scots get this from
us?"

In fact the word 'bairn' is not confined to Scotland but can be found in
Northumberland, Durham and Yorkshire.  As one moves into Lincolnshire
the form becomes 'barn'.  Of course, the answer to David's question is
another question (or set of them).  Scandinavian 'barn' is close to Frisian

'bern'  - how did these influence each other ?  And in Northern England,
where Anglian invasion and settlement was followed variously by Danish or
Norwegian invasion and settlement (depending on where you are), can we
really expect to be able to unravel the varied influences on the different
forms
'bairn' and 'barn' a millenium later ?  Lastly, is there a similar word to
be
found in Angeln, the home of our Anglian forebears ?

Best wishes

John Lindley
Wigginton
York.

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From: Thomas [t.mcrae at uq.net.au]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (01) [E]

> From: Lowlands-L <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (01) [E]
>
> From: david strommen [si00924 at navix.net]
> Subject: LL-L:interesting word for children-Bairns (E)
>
> I was interested in the word "bairns" in your Scots quote "bairns are ti
be
> seen an no heard", is this the common Scots word for children?
Very common in Scotland but it's also used in parts of Northern England at
least around Newcastle.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae
Brisbane Australia
"Oh wid some power the Giftie gie us
Tae see oorselves as ithers see us"
Robert Burns--

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From: Edwin Michael Alexander [edsells at idirect.com]
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 17.SEP.2000 (01) [E]

At 12:26 PM 09/17/00 -0700, david strommen wrote:
>I was interested in the word "bairns" in your Scots quote "bairns are ti
be
>
>seen an no heard", is this the common Scots word for children?  the Nordic

>word for children is barn with various plurals.  Did Scots get this from
>us?

cf Frisian "bern" - child.  Maybe you guys got it from the Frisians (just
joking).
Ed Alexander
JAG REALTY INC.
80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1
Pager: 905-545-0177  Fax: 905-525-6671 Email: edsells at idirect.com
Jag Realty Inc.: http://www.deerhurst.com/jag/
Ontario Ultra Series:  http://ous.kw.net/
Burlington Runners Club: http://www.deerhurst.com/brc/

----------

From: Stefan Israel [stefansfeder at yahoo.com]
Subject: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L

David Strommen asked

> I was interested in the word "bairns" [...] is this the common

> Scots word for children?
> the Nordic word for children is barn with various plurals.
> Did Scots get this from us?

The word shows up in various Germanic languages, including the
dialects of Old English ("bearn"), so Scots likely inherited the
word and did not need to borrow the related form from Norse.  I
don't know the history of Scots enough to know if the vowel
shift from barn to bairn might indicate whether Norse had any
influence or not.
The word appears to be related to the word _bear_ (children),
German gebären etc.

Stefan Israel
stefansfeder at yahoo.com

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

I am not aware of a cognate of _barn_ and _bairn_ for 'child' in any modern
variety of the "Low German" group of languages, i.e., Dutch, Afrikaans and
Low Saxon (Low German).  However, Old Saxon did have _barn_ 'child'.  I am
not sure about Old Low Franconian.  If such a word survived, I would expect
to find *_bern_ in Dutch and Afrikaans, and mostly *_barn_ in Low Saxon
(i.e., in the dialects that have _kark_ 'church' and _karn_ 'kernel') with
rare occurrence of *_bern_ (i.e., in the few dialects that have _kerk_
'church' and _kern_ 'kernel').  Of course, labial attraction being quite
strong in most Low Saxon dialects, I would not be surprised to find
*_börn_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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