LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 30.SEP.2000 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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  L O W L A N D S - L * 30.SEP.2000 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
  Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
  Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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  Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
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  A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
  LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic
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From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

As you know, we rarely broadcast non-subscribers' communication and even
more rarely allow non-subscribers to participate in our projects.  However,
I feel that we need to resolve the matter regarding recognition of
Zeelandic (Zeeuws).  So far I have heard only from Tom McRae, who was in
favor.

At any rate, I believe we should, at the very least, include a Zeelandic
(Zeeuws) version of our welcoming page, since this alone does not
necessarily mean that we consider a given variety a separate language, as
proven by our inclusion of translations in more than one Low Saxon and
Scots variety.  Apparently, a sizeable portion of people in Zeeland (in the
coastal parts of the Netherlands) feel that theirs is a separate language,
and Dutch speakers do not understand Zeelandic dialects all that well.
Furthermore, I feel that a Zeelandic welcome will attract speakers of these
varieties to the List and that that cannot be anything but good for the
List.  We have mentioned Zeelandic (and West Flemish) in several
discussions but have so far not entered into any details.  I feel we would
do well to learn more about Zeelandic and about Zeelandic-based or
-influenced creoles.

So, unless I receive strong arguments against it, I will ask Marco Evenhuis
of the Stichting Zuudwest 7 to arrange for a Zeelandic version of the LL-L
welcoming page, even though he is not a LL-L subscriber.  Obviously, I will
credit the translator on the page.  Resource pages can be compiled at a
later point, sufficient participation permitting.

Below please find a copy of Marco's response to my previous posting, for
which I thank him on behalf of Lowlands-L.  The Zeelandic website:
http://www.zeeuws.cjb.net

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
To: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: LL-L: "Language varieties" LOWLANDS-L, 29.SEP.2000 (03) [E]
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 15:39:40 +0200

Hi,

A brief comment on what you wrote about Zeeuws. I think that you're  right
when you state that a language should be granted a separate status if the
speakers desire so. With that in mind, the consequences and obligations you
seem to be afraid of, are not as fargoing as you might think. In  Zeeland,
a lot of speakers of both Zeeuws and standard Dutch wish Zeeuws to be
considered a separate language. The Province of Zeeland supports the  call
for a separate status for the language. In West-Flanders, the situation is
very different. The Belgian government hasn't ratified the European Charter
on Regional and Minority Languages and there is, apart from Limburg, no
strong call for ratification among speakers of the several
dialects/regional languages spoken in Belgium. Speakers  of West-Flemish do
not consider their speech to be a language in its own  right.

Apart from what the speakers feel about their language/dialect, there is
always the fact that many linguists find that standard Dutch, as an
artificial language created in the 16th en 17th century, in fact does  not
have any dialects. But the dialects of (North and South) Holland, Utrecht,
Brabant (prov. of Noord-Brabant in Holland and Antwerpen & Brabant in
Belgium) and Eastern Flanders were the main sources for Standard Dutch  and
today these dialects are quite easy to understand by speakers of Standard
Dutch. Dialects/reg. languages that did not or hardly contribute to the
'construction' of Standard Dutch (Western Flemish, Zeelandic, Frisian, Low
Saxon, Limburgian) are far more difficult to understand by speakers of
Standard Dutch. A film in Zeeuws that was released this week and can be
seen at cinemas all over the Netherlands, needed to be subtitled for
speakers of Standard Dutch.

Getting texts in both Zeeuws and Western Flemish (texts in Zeeuws are
however in most cases excepted by speakers of Western Flemish) and resource
lists concerning the(se) language(s) should not be any problem. The
organization I work for, Stichting Zuudwest 7, will be happy to help you
with those.

regards,

Marco Evenhuis

> On the basis of past experience, I expect that most LL-L subscribers
will
take
> the stance that these variety groups ought to be granted separate status
if
> the speakers so desire.  So far, Lowlands-L has been rather open-minded in
> these matters and has been quite willing to go along with the notion of
> separate language status even where this status had not yet been
officially
> granted by the respective governments (e.g., Low Saxon/Low German, Limburgish
> and Scots).
>
> If we decide to treat Zeelandic and West Flemish as languages in
their own
> right or as one language in its own right, then this ought to be
reflected in
> our online publications.  We would need to have the LL-L introduction in these
> varieties as well.  (And I'm still waiting for a Limburgish version
so I can
> post it.)  We would also need to have online and offline resource
lists for
> these varieties (and for Limburgish).
> (http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm,
> http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/guides_offline.htm)
> Who will help?  Saying "yes" is one thing; acting on it is another.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

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