LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 20.APR.2001 (02) [E]

Fri Apr 20 21:20:06 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.APR.2001 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German), S=Scots, Sh=Shetlandic, Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: Peo Almqvist [trommeltje at netscape.net]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 19.APR.2001 (02) [E]

You forgot zitten vs. zetten

And since you put Scandianvian languages on the list, I would like to add some
comments on the Swedish examples.

learn vs. teach
lära vs. lära

Swedish 'lära' is unlike ie. Dutch 'leren' always di-transitive. That means it
is reflexive in the meaning to learn. For example:

ik heb het geleerd
jag har lärt mig det

burrow vs. lend
låna vs. låna

To lend is normally 'låna ut' where 'ut' is a verb particle. But it is never
di-transitive. 'Låna' (without particle) with the meaning to lend is also
possible but less usual, and is di-transitive. For example:

jag har lånat ut pengar till honom (lit. I have lent out money to him)
jag har lånat honom pengar (I have lent him money)
*jag har lånat ut honom pengar (I have lent out him money)
*jag har lånat pengar till honom (I have lent money to him)

Groeten
Peo Almqvist

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From: HS Brandsma [hsbrand at sloep03.cs.vu.nl]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" LOWLANDS-L, 19.APR.2001 (02) [E]

koartby skreau Ron

> I am interested in verb pairs of the types listed below, where in general
> standard or in "substandard" language varieties (wherever there *is* a
> language-wide standard) only one of them is used to convey both meanings.
> Specifically, I am interested in the spread of this phenomenon among the
> Lowlands languages (with references to other Germanic varieties and, to a
> lesser extent, to non-Germanic language varieties).  I am also interested in
> finding out if there are any other such verb pairs in any Lowlands varieties.

> (1) 'acquire knowledge/skill' vs 'cause to acquire knowledge/skill'
>
> General Standard Dutch:
> _leren_ vs _leren_

Of course, if one wants to really make it unambiguous as to which
meaning is referred, in Dutch one can use "onderwijzen" for "to
teach". The derived noun "onderwijzer" is used for a primary school
teacher while "leraar" (from "leren" in the second meaning) is used
for a secondary school teacher.
so one could also speak of a distinction "leren" - "onderwijzen"

In Westerlauwer Frisian we use "leare" for both, though the word
"u^nderwize" also exists (probably coined from Dutch).
Mooring has "liire". I believe, and Saterlandic "leere".

> (2) 'acquire on loan' vs 'provide on loan'

In Westerlauwer Frisian we'd say "liene", in Saterlandic "le(e)ne"
There is the word _u'tliene_ / Dutch _uitlenen_ to distinguish the
second meaning from the first one.
I also believe that older Frisian also had _boargje_ in the first
meaning.

> (3) 'be in a (prone) position' vs 'cause to be in a (prone) position'

In all types of Frisian these verbs merged early on, due to soundlaws:
both were Old Frisian _ledza_, modern westerlauwer Frisian _lizze_
[lIz@] or [le:z@], depending on dialect).

Henno Brandsma

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From: niels winther [niels.winther at dfds.dk]
Subject: Grammar

Ron, you wrote:

> I am interested in verb pairs <...>,
> where in general standard or in "substandard" language varieties
> (wherever there *is* a language-wide standard) only one of them
> is used to convey both meanings. Specifically, I am interested in
> the spread of this phenomenon among the Lowlands languages (with
> references to other Germanic varieties and, to a lesser extent,
> to non-Germanic language varieties).  I am also interested in
> finding out if there are any other such verb pairs in any Lowlands
> varieties. Any other information and also theories concerning this
> type of phenomenon would be appreciated also.  One or both of the
> verbs in a pair may have lexical alternatives, but I am not all that
> interested in these, am only interested in whether or not the "same"
> verb *may* express both meanings.

The westeuropean exotic characters 'æøåäö' didn't get through the meshes
in your last mail. I don't what happened to my setup.
I hope the Danish exotics get through this time.

(3) 'be in a (prone) position' vs 'cause to be in a (prone) position'

"Substandard" Danish:
_ligge_ vs _ligge_

General Standard Danish:
_ligge_ vs _lægge_

there are other sets of verb of this kind.
like e.g:

    'wake up'  vs 'awaken (somebody)'

"Substandard" Danish:
_vågne_ vs _vågne_

General Standard Danish:
_vågne_ vs _vække_

are you interested in all verbs, that functions both
transitively and intransitively as ergative pairs
like _drown_, _melt_ etc. ?

or only in those that have within the same linguistic area
a parallel set that differentiates according to ergativity ?

rgds
niels

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From: Andy Eagle [Andy.Eagle at t-online.de]
Subject: LL-L: "Grammar" [E]

Ron wrote:
> >Scots (no general standard):
> >_lairn_ vs _lairn_

Colin wrote:
> "Teach" (pt. "taucht") is also used in Scots.

pt. teached as well.

Andy

----------

From: frank verhoft [frank_verhoft at yahoo.com]
Subject: Grammar

Geachte heer Hahn, geachte Laaglanders,

R.F. Hahn wrote:

> I am only interested in whether or not the "same"
> verb *may* express both meanings.

> (1) 'acquire knowledge/skill' vs 'cause to acquire
> knowledge/skill'

> General Standard Dutch:
> _leren_ vs _leren_

Examples:
Ik leer Portugees. (meaning: _to learn_, never _to
teach_)
Ik leer hen Portugees. (meaning: _to teach_, never _to
learn_)
*Ik leer hen.

When _leren_ means _to teach_, it seems that it has to
be ditransitive.

> (2) 'acquire on loan' vs 'provide on loan'
> General Standard Dutch:
> _lenen_ vs _lenen_
> (also _borgen_ vs _lenen_)

I must say that I never heard of the verb _borgen_ in
the context of _lenen_, and I must admit that i had to
look it up in a dictionary myself :-). It can be used
to denote _waarborgen_, _garanderen_ (to guarantee).

Though _lenen_ can both mean "to acquire on loan" or
"to provide on loan", I have the impression that in
the latter case _uitlenen_ or _lenen aan_ is a common
alternative in case of ambiguitity.

Examples:
Ik leen hem 100 frank. (to provide a loan)
Ik leen 100 frank van hem. (to acquire a loan)
Ik leen 100 frank. (ambiguous, but odd imho)

> (3) 'be in a (prone) position' vs 'cause to be in a
> (prone) position'

> General Standard Dutch:
> _liggen_ vs _leggen_

In Standard Dutch the words _liggen_/_leggen_ don't
give rise to any possible misunderstanding or
ambiguity. The "same verb" cannot express both
meanings.

Similar cases as _liggen_/_leggen_:
_drinken_ vs _drenken_
(E: to drink - to drench)
(G: trinken - traenken)

_vallen_ vs _vellen_
(E: to fall - to fell)
(G: fallen - faellen)

_leggen_, _drenken_, _vellen_ are called "causative"
(causatieve) verbs. As far as I could find out, these
causative verbs are confined to NW Germanic languages.

I hope this helps.

Best regards,

Frank

----------

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Grammar

Dear Lowlanders,

Thanks to all those who have responded to my introductory posting in this
thread.  The input has been very interested.

Let me remind you that, while alternatives or substitutions must not be ignored
(and I realize that these are used), I am primarily interested in the
principle, namely in the question if the same form *can* be used in both
contexts.

Yes, the second question is how ambiguity is avoided in such cases.  Frank has
pointed out something in Dutch that strikes me as particularly interesting:

> Examples:
> Ik leer Portugees. (meaning: _to learn_, never _to
> teach_)
> Ik leer hen Portugees. (meaning: _to teach_, never _to
> learn_)
> *Ik leer hen.

One might be tempted to argue that 'learn' is the basic meaning of _leren_,
modification being needed to express 'teach' when _leren_ is used.

Modification and substitution of the types mentioned are used in Low Saxon (Low
German) as well, e.g., _utle(h)nen_ 'to lend', but this tends to be confined to
impersonal contexts (where the recipient is not specified, e.g., _Ik lehn keen
Böker ut_ 'I don't lend books (to anyone)', much like German _ausleihen_ and
_verleihen_.

In the same language, substitution is common also.  For instance, instead of
using _le(h)ren_ in the sense of 'teach', you may say _bibringen_, _bibögen_ or
_ünnerrichten_ (probably also *_ünnerwiesen_ in some dialects), besides
modified forms such as _tole(h)ren_, _anle(h)ren_.  It seems to me, with regard
to this language and its relatives, that supposed substitute verbs are not
always 100% equivalents and that we are dealing with various shades of meaning
about which not all speakers may agree.  For example, I feel that the principle
meaning of _ünnerrichten_ (and also Dutch _onderwijzen_?) is 'give lessons
(in)' and that of _tole(h)ren_ and _anle(h)ren_ is 'teach (someone) the ropes/a
skill/a trade' (cf. German _anlernen_).

Ik lehr Greeksch.
(I learn Greek.)

Ik lehr jüm Greeksch.
(I teach them Greek.)

*Ik lehr jüm Greeksch an.
(ungrammatical?)

*Ik lehr jüm Greeksch to.
(ungrammatical?)

Ik lehr den Jung an/to.
(I teach the boy a trade./I have the boy as my apprentice. ?)

Ik ünnerricht (~ ünnerwies') Greeksch.
(I teach Greek.)
(~ Ik geev' Ünnerricht/Ünnerwies in Greeksch. ~ Ik geev'
Greeksch-Ünnerricht/Ünnerwies.)

Ik ünnerricht (~ ünnerwies') lütte Kinner. (?)
(I teach small children.?)

(*)Ik ünnerricht (~ ünnerwies') lütte Kinner Greeksch. (?)
(I teach Greek to small children. ?)

Further input will be appreciated.

Niels asked:

> are you interested in all verbs, that functions both
> transitively and intransitively as ergative pairs
> like _drown_, _melt_ etc. ?

Sure.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Niels wrote:
> The westeuropean exotic characters 'æøåäö' didn't get through the meshes
> in your last mail.

They got through here and also through to the archive, Niels.

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