LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.JUL.2001 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 A=Afrikaans, Ap=Appalachean, D=Dutch, E=English, F=Frisian, L=Limburgish
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From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 22.JUL.2001 (01) [D/E/French]

On 22-Jul-01 Lowlands-L wrote:
> From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> 2. "Gote" (?var. Goyt? Goit?)
>
> Near Wisbech is a cluster of settlements of which major ones are
> Tydd St Mary and Tydd St Giles (by no means big, though). Others
> (really tiny) are Tydd Gote and Four Gotes.
>
> My question is: "What's a Gote?"
>
> And then, possibly, "Whence the word?"
>
> The sense of one piece of oldish text I've come across suggests it
> may be a sluice (? sluice Gate->Gote ?).
>
> An old map (Blaeu, 1648) shows "Tydgoate" and "The 4 Goats"
> (NB spelling verified).
>
> Another suggestion is a [drainage?] channel (cf. River Goyt in
> Derbyshire/Cheshire which "Concise Oxford Dictionary of English
> Placenames" attibutes to "Welsh 'gwyth' `channel, conduit`, identical
> with Old Cornish 'guid' `a vein`, Middle Breton 'goeth' `a brook`.)
> =====================================
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> This may be a long shot, but could this "Gote" (~ "Goat") be related to
> Modern Low Saxon (Low German) _Good_ ~ _Good_ [goUt] ~ _Gaut_ [gaUt]
> and German _Gut_ 'property', 'estate', '(grand) homestead (with land)'
> (neuter gender)?  This appears to be related to LS _goot_ ~ _good_ ~
> _gaut_ and German _gut_ 'good', thus the idea of 'goods' = 'belongings'
> = 'estate'. However, then I'd expect a _-d_ in the regional English
> word (*_Gode_, bearing in mind that /-d/ is underlying in LS, hence ->
> _gode_ as in _gode Saken_ 'good things'), unless the dialects have
> final devoicing (as in some Northern English and most or all Scots
> varieties, as well as Dutch, Low Saxon and German).

Ron,

This looks plausible, until you look at Blaeu's map ("Regiones Inundatae")
which puts both "Tydgoate" and "The 4 Goats" in (but near the edge of) the
shaded area of the wet lands. This does not look like something worth
claiming as an estate or "good land". From the map's date (1648) it
reflects the state of the region (mostly water) prior to the drainage
works started by Vermuyden et al. later that century (and the information
on the map may be derived from an earlier map drawn in 1604).

However, your suggestion cannot be rejected merely on this kind of
plausibility: the pre-drainage consensus on "good land" depended on
factors (such as yield in fish and water fowl) quite different from what
became important later.

It will be interesting to see whether any of our readers come up with
placenames from Holland etc. which involve words cognate with "Gote".

Best wishes,
Ted.

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E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
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Date: 23-Jul-01                                       Time: 00:25:54
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ted,

While I am aware that this lead might not pan out, let me explain that
"good" is not to be taken literally here, in this case as "good land," but
-- and I should have said this earlier -- as "property" or "possession," or
perhaps "real estate."  (Cf. German _Geld und Gut_ in reference to ones
monetary and other types of posession.)  No matter how bad land seems, if
people own it and build homes on it and run a household and farm there, it
is a LS _Good_ or G _Gut_.

Might these "gotes" in your area have anything to do with Westerlauwers
Frisian _goate_ ~ _goatte_ 'gutter'?  (Cf. _goat_ ~ _goate_ 'downpour')
There's your connection with water and sluices perhaps.  Am I getting warm?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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