LL-L: "Place names" (was "Etymology") LOWLANDS-L, 25.JUL.2001 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 24.JUL.2001 (01) [E/LS]

On 24-Jul-01 Lowlands-L wrote:
> ----------
> Ted Harding wrote:
>
>> Now if some of the denizens of Continental Fenland can point to
>> places with _Göte_ or the like in their names, then I think the
>> circle (of circumstantial evidence at least) would be closed.
>
> I wonder if Neustadtgödens (Low Saxon *_Neestadtgödens_?) on the
> eastern edge
> of Eastern Friesland (not far from Willemshaben/Wilhelmshaven)
> qualifies.
>
> But, Ted, do you really need this word to occur in Continental place
> names to be convinced?

Not absolutely, but it would help!

The point is, that the meaning we're groping for on the English
side seems likely to be related to features (channel etc) which could
be verified (or if not extant possibly traced historically).

To find a cognate placename in continental Fenland, where the cognate
word means something similar and also the place itself has similar
features would reinforce the conclusion that the English word and
the Continental word refer to the same thing.

(Just a matter of establishing semantic communality across the sea
by primitive means, I suppose: You point to your drain and I point to
my drain, and we both say something which sounds like "Gote".
Then we can both go and have a "beer"/"bier", whose semantic
communality can be established in the same way, if necessary.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 167 1972
Date: 24-Jul-01                                       Time: 20:32:27
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Place names

Thanks for your reply (above), Ted.

> To find a cognate placename in continental Fenland, where the cognate
> word means something similar and also the place itself has similar
> features would reinforce the conclusion that the English word and
> the Continental word refer to the same thing.

Yes, sure, I see your point.  In the case of manmade features, though, it is
important to see how old these are, namely whether or not they predate
Germanic settlement in Britain.  For instance, Low Saxon and Frisian _Siel_ ~
_ziel_ ~ _zijl_ 'main drainage channel' is extremely common in place names of
Eastern Friesland, Emsland and Groningen (and part of Fryslân?), coastal
fenland areas which the migrants had traversed and where they supposedly
boosted their ranks with Saxons and Frisians.  Yet, so far I have not come
across a British fenland place name that contains a cognate.  (Has anyone
else?)  Might the invention of this type of channel postdate Germanic
settlement in Britian?

Apparently, there are people who seek to show that actual Continental place
names were given to Germanic settlements in Britain, much like European place
names were given to places in the Americas, Australia, New Zealand and South
Africa.  Some time ago I read a German article about a possible link between
Buxsted (between Eastbourne and London, England) and Buxtehude [bUkst@'hu:d@]
(Low Saxon _Buxtuud'_ [bUks'tu:%(d)], a town in Lower Saxony, not far from
Hamburg, "where dogs bark with their tails" and the hedgehog raced with the
hare, possibly also the ancestral home of Dietrich Buxtehude, the Danish
composer, born in 1637 in Oldesloe, Holstein [then under Danish rule]).  I
might be able to dig up the article if anyone is interested.

> (Just a matter of establishing semantic communality across the sea
> by primitive means, I suppose: You point to your drain and I point to
> my drain, and we both say something which sounds like "Gote".
> Then we can both go and have a "beer"/"bier", whose semantic
> communality can be established in the same way, if necessary.)

Or in my ancestral language a _Beer_ [be%I3] (sounds a bit like "Bayer"
pronounced by English speakers, probably close to the pronunciation of Old
English _bêor_ [> _bere_ > _beer_]).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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