LL-L: "Idiomatica" LOWLANDS-L, 02.MAY.2001 (01) [E]

Wed May 2 14:58:56 UTC 2001

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.MAY.2001 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Kevin Caldwell" <kdcaldw at interserv.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

My mother used this device too, or at least something similar - usually the
object of the made-up verb was "you".  She was born in West Tennessee and
raised around Russellville, Kentucky, and is of mainly Swedish/Scottish
descent, with some Cherokee and maybe some Dutch, Creek, and who knows what
else thrown in.  I think her ancestors migrated from northern Georgia to
West Tennessee after the Civil War.  The only specific example that comes to
mind (although I know she used this device a lot) is:

"Be quiet!  Daddy's taking a nap!"
"But I'm playing Superman!"
"I'll Superman you if you don't be quiet!"

Kevin Caldwell
kdcaldw at interserv.com

-----Original Message-----

From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
Subject: Idiomatica

Dear Lowlanders,

I wonder if any of you are able to enlighten me about the origin and spread
of a certain idiomatic device.  I assume this device is restricted to
American English, more specifically to certain southern dialects of the
United States, and I would not be surprised if it turned up in Appalachian
as well.  However, I believe there is always a possibility that it is
derived from European English or from another language.

When her children were young, my mother-in-law would occasionally use this
special device.  She used it very rarely when her children were adults, and
then she tended to use it at least half jokingly, unless she was really
angry.  As I understand it, the basic social function of this device is
that of some sort of power posturing and of sternly reprimanding, warning,
threatening or challenging, in all cases dismissing a statement, demand or
explanation/excuse of someone over whom one wields power, real or
imagined.  The underlying message is the threat "I'd/I'll give you a
beating."

The basic requirement for this device is a compound noun that expresses the
crucial item in someone else's "offending" statement or question.  The
basic rule is this: one of the noun components is converted into a verb
(usually a pseudo-verb, but sometimes it happens to be an existing verb),
and the other component then serves as an object noun.

Examples (made up):

(1) "I had to stop at Danny's to play with his new tow truck."
    "I'll tow your truck if you don't come home directly again."

(2) "Can't I have a candy bar, please, please, please?"
    "I'll candy your bar in a second." or   "I'll bar your candy in a
second."

(3) "Mom, Cathy won't let me play with the hula hoop!"
    "I'll hula your hoop if you don't leave her alone."

(4) "Can't I at least finish watching the Disney cartoons first?"
    "I'll disney your cartoon(s) if you don't do your homework right now"
or
    "I'll cartoon your disney if you don't do your homework right now"

(5) "But I said I wanted pork chops!"
    "I'll chop your pork if you don't eat what's on your plate." or
    "I'll pork your chops if you don't eat what's on your plate."

Is this familiar to any of you?  Do you have any background information?
How widely is this used, geographically, ethnically?  A couple of times I
have heard someone say this kind of thing to an adult in movies, each time
meant to be a threat.  I have never heard it used around here (the U.S.
northwest coast), except from my mother-in-law, who grew up at Georgia's
border with Alabama and was of mixed African, European and Native American
(assumedly Creek) background (but of course was classified as "Black" in
keeping with time and place).  I have never heard this device used before I
came to the United States.

Thanks for any information you care to share.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: LL-L: "Idiomatica" LOWLANDS-L, 30.APR.2001 (03) [E]
Subject: Alfred Brothers <alfredb at erols.com>

Steven W Kavchok wrote:

> > Is this familiar to any of you?
>
> Yes.  Those expressions seem perfectly normal, albeit rare, to me in New
> Jersey.  I know nothing of the origin, but they don't strike me as
> southern.  I would
> characterize them as "jokingly dismissive."  I personally would say
> something
> like "dagh! candy bar, schmandy bar," which serves the same purpose.  I
> think
> you already discussed this construction a while ago.
>
> Steven W Kavchok
> Hillsborough, New Jersey

These expressions (the "I'll tow *your* truck" type) are very familiar to me,
as well. I grew up in the Boston, Massachusetts area. (Even my father, who was
from Manchester, England, used them, but that may have been under American
influence.) I still hear -- and occasionally use -- them. I've also heard them
on television -- specifically, on The Simpsons (usually by Homer) and some of
the late-night talk shows (Jay Leno and Conan O'Brien, both of whom come
originally from the same area I do). I've never considered the device to be of
southern origin.

I am also very familiar with the device Críostóir uses in his example of "I'll
give *you* a hiding [or any other noun]!" This is probably even more common
than the above example.

And as Ron mentioned, as children we never took these types of "chastisements"
very seriously.

Al Brothers

----------

From: "Catherine Buma" <cpunzy at hotmail.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Lowlanders

R. F. Hahn wrote

[I wonder if any of you are able to enlighten me about the origin and spread
of a certain idiomatic device.  I assume this device is restricted to
American English, more specifically to certain southern dialects of the
United States, and I would not be surprised if it turned up in Appalachian
as well.  However, I believe there is always a possibility that it is
derived from European English or from another language.]

Interesting - my dad was always spouting these types of sayings and we
thought that it was an original invention (if a bit odd).  Just goes to show
that there is "nothing new under the sun."

Anyway, my father is from Fryslan although he moved to Canada when only a
child.  However, I have heard his mother use these phrases as well.  I am
curious to see if any other Dutchmen tease/reprimand their children like
this.

[When her children were young, my mother-in-law would occasionally use this
special device.  She used it very rarely when her children were adults, and
then she tended to use it at least half jokingly, unless she was really
angry.  As I understand it, the basic social function of this device is that
of some sort of power posturing and of sternly reprimanding, warning,
threatening or challenging, in all cases dismissing a statement, demand or
explanation/excuse of someone over whom one wields power, real or imagined.
The underlying message is the threat "I'd/I'll give you a beating."]

My father used these phrases in exactly the same manner; half joking, but a
device that would serve to lightly remind, "Ok, I am the parent here and you
are the child."  This attitude is very European, well, at least that of my
father's day and age.

I am very intrigued by this discussion.  As I stated earlier, it was always
a quirky and endearing trait of my father's.  And now I find that he has
kindred spirits.

Cheers

Catherine Buma

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