LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 10.MAY.2001 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Stefan Israel <stefansfeder at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:

> In the North Saxon dialects of Modern Low Saxon [...] _wied un
sied_ [vi:t ?Un zi:t] [...] denotes the same as German _weit und
> breit_ ("far and broad/wide")
> Likewise, Dutch uses _wijd en zijd_, and Afrikaans uses _wyd
> en syd_.  Recently I  have been finding an actual cognate used

> in Middle English literature: _widen and siden_

> Does anyone know the etymology of Middle English _siden_?

It must come from Old English _sid_ (with long vowel) "wide,
broad, spacious, ample, extensive; long, hanging, of ample
length".   My Bosworth's Old English dictionary specificially
states that its adverb _side_ "generally occurs along with
_wide_":  _side and wide_, _side oththe wide_.

There was also an adverb _sidan_ "from a wide area".

> One might be tempted to suspect a connection with English
> _side_ and its cognates

My Duden Etymological dictionary connects Engl. _side_/Dutch
_zijde_ with this adjective OE _sid_, OIcelandic _sidhr_
"hanging down", Old Frisian/Middle Low Saxon _side_ "low", Old
High German _sito_ "limp", with an original meaning of hanging
limply.

> However, I have always assumed that the _sied_ in _wied un
> sied_ is the same as Modern Low Saxon _sied_ 'shallow', 'low(-
> lying)' (>_Siedland_ 'low-lying land', 'lowlands', 'marsh
> (land)', _Siedwenn_ 'low dike', 'levee').

The shift in meaning from "hanging down low" to "low" is an easy
step; English rotated the meaning 90 degrees, from vertical to
horizontal expanse.  Since the phrase seems to go back over a
thousand years, if not twice that, the Low Saxon _wied un sied_
has been left behind as the independent adjective _sied_ has
changed its meaning.
That's a fine example of how a set phrase can be reinterpreted
or semanticly stranded from its individual words.

> Did not Middle English _wide_ (< Old English _wîd_) also have
> the meaning 'far (afield)' (like Low Saxon _wied_ and German
> _weit_), and is this meaning not preserved in 'far and wide'?

Just as you say: _wid_ and its adverb _wide_ had the meaning in
OE of 1. "wide, of a certain width"  (3' wide), 2. "wide, broad,
of great width" (a wide street), 3. "wide, vast, spacious,
broad, ample",  4. "open (sea)", 5. "of travel that traverses
many lands, distant, far and wide", 6. "of duration of time:
long, lasting long".
OE _widan_ meant "from (far) and wide, from a distance."

Stefan

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From: ezinsser at icon.co.za
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 09.MAY.2001 (01) [E]

Hi all

R. F. Hahn  <mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:
Dutch _zijd_ and Afrikaans _syd_ appear to be defunct
words, being used only in the aforementioned phrase.

There are more. One immediately coming to mind is:
ter syde stel (legal jargon)

Incidentally, as a child I thought the 'syd' in 'wyd en
syd' was just my parents' flat Cape Colony pronunciation
of 'suid' (as in _wyd en *suid_).

Elsie Zinsser

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From: Henry Pijffers <henry.pijffers at saxnot.com>
Subject: LL-L: "Etymology" LOWLANDS-L, 09.MAY.2001 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
>However, I have always assumed that the _sied_ in _wied un sied_ is the same
>as Modern Low Saxon _sied_ 'shallow', 'low(-lying)' (> _Siedland_ 'low-lying
>land', 'lowlands', 'marsh(land)', _Siedwenn_ 'low dike', 'levee').
>
We don't have _syd_ / _sied_ with that meaning. Overhere it's always _leeg_.
Here _syd_ means the same as Dutch _zijde_.

>Thus I have always perceived Low Saxon _wied un sied_ as literally meaning
>"far and low," namely as being a sort of combination of what in English are
>'far and wide' and 'high and low' (e.g., "I searched far and wide" and "I
>searched high and low").  Have I been mistaken?
>
We too have the expression _wyd en _syd_, but I've never looked upon this as
literally meaning "far and low". As I said above, _syd_ doesn't (currently)
have
the meaning "low". It might have had though, so you could be both right and
wrong.

regards,
Henry Pijffers

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