LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 29.MAY.2001 (07) [S]
Lowlands-L
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Tue May 29 20:46:08 UTC 2001
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L O W L A N D S - L * 29.MAY.2001 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Sandy Fleemin [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Orthography"
> From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
> Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 28.MAY.2001 (06) [S]
>
> Here's anither yin that likes it fine, it reads alood richt weel.
> Weel dun Sandy!
Thanks, Thomas (or Tammas?? :)
It's guid tae see that ma ideas is maistly in tune wi ither
Scots spaekers'!
> From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at starmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L: "Orthography" LOWLANDS-L, 28.MAY.2001 (06) [S]
>
> A canna see oniething wrang wi thon masel - ye cud cry it a
> "translation intae modren general Scots". Whit wey cud fowk
> object tae thon? It bathers naebodie that Shakespeare's braid
> Warwickshire is translatit intae modren English.
Or for that maiter, the'r beuks like "Burns into English" -
how no "Burns intae Richt Scots"? It's mibbie time somebody
set a precedent.
A'v noticed as weel that the'r a tendency tae modernise
Middle Scots writers like Henryson intae English insteid
o modern Scots. Altho A'll be presentin Middle Scots
"Makars" in Middle Scots (tho aiblins redd up a bittie
an aa - an A'd be happy tae explain this if it bathers
onybody) A micht weel offer modernised vairsions in
Scots as weel as the originals. But that's a bittie tae
the ayont.
> In the bygaun, jist ae mair wee thing:
>
> >But nou the _leaves_ o yellae dye,
>
> Dis Sandy mean _leafs_ here?
"Leaves" is what it haes in the original. A ken we dinna
vyce the plurals in Scots the wey folk dis in English,
but in ma dialeck, the plural is "leaves" because the
singular is "leave". Sae the'r aye the possibility that
Fergusson wrate it this wey wi it bein sayed this wey in
his dialeck an aa (me an him is aboot fae the same airt
efter aa).
What A dinna want tae dae is chainge things that micht be
juist what the makar ettled. Af coorse, if Fergusson haed
written "leafs" A wad a left it as "leafs". For a peety,
Fergusson disna uise aither "leave" or "leaf" in the
singular onywhaur ootthrou his Scots poems (A div hae this
advantage - that wi aathing in electronic form A can saich
tae see richt awa what kin o ither things the like the makar
wad write), sae the'r nae definitive answer A can see.
The ar the ither pynt tho, that A wis sayin A'd be leain
the grammar abee - if A war tae start on this kin o thing
wad A no start chaingin "Whare couthy chiels at e'enin
meet" tae "Whare couthy chiels at e'enin meets" an "Thoo
canst chairm" tae "Thoo can chairm"? A'd _want_ tae, gin
it war aa up tae me, but wad this mibbie no be gaun ower
faur for aome folk?
Something A'd like tae spier anent at Aiberdeen-awa
spaekers in parteeclar: A hae some "Doric" (gin A can
uise this term tae jouk haein tae say "Aibrdeen-awa" aa
the time) texts in the collection. Here a example o the
best (fae "Mains an Hilly", bi James Alexander, 1912 -
A'v sortit this tae redd oot apostrophes an the likes o
through -> throu, but that's aa):
"There wis anidder awfu storm fin we didna see a letter
nor a paper for a haill ook. Ae day a man an me set awa
a three mile throu the drift to the Post Office, to see
gin we cud get ony papers. It wis a featfu day o blawin,
an fin we gid to the shop fint a post hid turn't up. We
wait aboot for a twa oors, an thocht we cudna wyte langer
for fear o 't comin doon dark. So we set awa hame, an it
aye blawin 'at ye cudna see a yaird afore ye. We hid nae
seener set oot nor a man cam cryin efter 's 'at the post
hid come. We got wir papers, an fin eence we wan hame,
tir't aneuch, ye may be seer, we hid a fine evenin gyaun
owre the news an hearin fat wis deein ootside wir nain
locality."
Nou, tho ye could chainge twathree things here tae mair
general Scots, the likes o "seener" tae "suiner" an "fin"
tae "whan", an still can read it in the Doric, A dinna
think A will. The raesons is that A can see that the makar
haes duin this wi a deleeberate ettle tae lat folk see what
like the dialeck is, an forby he manages tae git it aa fair
consistent - a faur cry fae Burns, Fergusson an the lave.
Nou, the abuin is a hale muckle beuk fou o dialogues in the
Doric (a body could fair caa it a hale novel in Aiberdeen-awa),
sae A can say that the Doric is weel represented on the site
(wi the likes o Charles Murray, Violet Jacob an a wheen mair
an aa).
But the'r ither places A'm tempted tae chynge Doric spellins
tae mair general Scots - an yet on the ither haun, A dinna
ken. What wad Doric spaekers think on the likes o this? (fae
"Ancient Ballads and Songs of the North of Scotland" wi
notes bi Peter Buchan, 1828 - A'll pit the hale sang in
seein it can be a lauch, even tho the humour's a bit auld
at places (veecious tho it is, A canna help fae lauchin at
a line like "An whan he saw his een wis oot"!)):
I bought a wife in Edinburgh,
For ae bawbie;
I gat a farthing in again,
To buy tobacco wi'.
We'll bore in Aaron's nose a hole,
And put therein a ring;
And straight we'll lead him to an fro,
Yea, lead him in a string.
Chorus.-- And wi' you, and wi' you,
And wi' you, my Johnny, lad;
I'll drink the buckles o' my sheen,
Wi' you, my Johnny, lad.
When auld Prince Arthur ruled this land,
He wis a thievish king;
He stole three bolls o barley meal,
To make a white pudding.
And wi' you, &c.
The pudding it was sweet and good,
And stored well wi' plums;
The lumps o suet into it,
Were big as baith my thumbs
And wi' you, &c.
There was a man in Ninevah,
And he was wondrous wise;
He jump'd into a hawthorn hedge,
And scratch'd out baith his eyes.
And wi' you, &c.
And when he saw his eyes were out,
He wis sair vexed then;
He jump'd intill anither hedge,
And scratch'd them in again.
And wi' you, &c.
O Johnny's nae a gentleman,
Nor yet is he a laird;
But I would follow Johnny, lad,
Altho' he were a caird.
And wi' you, &c.
O Johnny is a bonny lad,
He was ance a lad o' mine;
I never had a better lad,
And I've had twenty-nine.
And wi' you, &c.
(Mind you, the idea o no fashin oor thoums aboot rhymes
disna wirk sae weel wi sangs as it dis wi poetry - try
singin "wice" tae rhyme wi "een"?!)
Onywey, this is ane o they writers that minds us that Burns
an Fergusson isna the warst o them! He seems tae hae nae
regaird at aa for whether a wirds written as Scots or
English, an we'v aaready been ower maist o this. But
what A'm wonderin aboot is, should this be traetit as
the Doric or as general Scots? What wad oor Doric
spaekers think (no forgettin that ScotsteXt'll hae
plenty richt Doric athoot this kin o thing) o me
chaingin the likes o:
I'll drink the buckles o' my sheen,
tae:
I'll drink the buckles o my shuin,
an:
O Johnny's nae a gentleman,
tae:
O Johnny's no a gentleman,
(A should mention that there will be ither versions o this kin o thing
available:
I'll drink the buckles o' my sheen, (this ane)
I'll dance the buckles aff my shuin/knees/feet, (traditional)
We'll drink the bauchles aff wir feet, (Glesca an thareaboots))
Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
- C.W.Wade,
'The Adventures o McNab'
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