LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.24 (04) [E]

Wed Apr 24 21:25:31 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.APR.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.04.23 (04) [E]

Mr Hahn is being pretty lenient about subject matter (I "Lowland
Germanic" to be Lowland Germanic languages of the West Germanic group
(thus excluding North Germanic, Gothic, Alemannic and High German
generally).  Maybe I have that wrong, though. Danish is clearly a
"Lowland" and a "Germanic" language, for example.

This discussion (about what is or isn't a "language" [or "sub-language"
or "dialect" or even "Mundart" or "regional variant"]) is not likely to
be resolved by any statement of opinion or even any presentation of
"facts".  The traditional definition of a "language" that I have always
accepted (and I'm NOT suggesting that anyone must accept this) is that
it cannot be understood by those speaking another "language", but that
there is at least some comprehensibility between "dialects" of the same
language.  Thus, the North American "dialects" and the English
"dialects" of the English language are mutually understandable (yes,
pronunciations can make it difficult, but certainl;y not impossible with
patience).  On the other hand, I'd view North Frisian as at least one
language and West Frisian a language distinct from North Frisian.

Also, as someone "who's been to both places, and spoken to both
peoples", trust me -- Faeroese is a language because it is distinct from
other languages, not simply because it has been declared a language by
its users.  In the early 70s, I was on a boat travling between Vagar
Island (that's the one with Torshavn on it) and one of the smaller
islands to see the nesting birds.  I got into a conversation with a
school teacher who had his class with him on the boat.  As the
conversation turned to his language (he was literature teacher), he
remarked that he thought he could understand Icelandic if the Icelanders
would speak it more slowly (Icelanders do tend to speak pretty rapidly
compared to the Faeroese).  Lo and behold one of the other passengers, a
tourist and native of Reykjavik, overheard the conversation (which was
in English), and suggested, smilingly, that they "give it a try".  Well,
more than speed was involved.  Although they did understand a lot of
each other's vocabulary, a cohesive conversation was really not
possible, and they constantly had to stop and translate (using mutually
understood English) words in order to complete the experiment.  Both
admitted that, with the aid of dictionaries, they could easily read each
other's literature.  No doubt this probably did work out better --
Faeroese orthography (which mimics Icelandic even where the
pronunciation doesn't) looks more Icelandic than the language itself
sounds.

If a particular "speech group" is identifiable with a region, is
distinctive enough to be clearly "different" from other "speech groups",
it seems fitting to me that it have name, that the grammar, syntax,
vocabulary, spelling, and pronunciation be recorded and respected under
the name of that language.  it matters not whether Low Saxon or
Limburgish are dialects or or sub-languages or languages.  The important
thing is that they are Low Saxon and Limburgish, and need to be treated
on their own terms and within their own histories and evolutions.

I'm familiar with Svabo.  No language should be written off as
"corrupt".  If intrusion of non-native elements is the basis (as it was
for Svabo), English should be the first language on the chopping block!
That kind of ethnocentric judgement has been passe since the days of
Franz Boas (a century ago).  I, for one, do not want to see such
attitudes coming back into vogue.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Erek Gass wrote above:

> Mr Hahn is being pretty lenient about subject matter (I "Lowland
> Germanic" to be Lowland Germanic languages of the West Germanic group
> (thus excluding North Germanic, Gothic, Alemannic and High German
> generally).  Maybe I have that wrong, though. Danish is clearly a
> "Lowland" and a "Germanic" language, for example.

Danish is clearly a Scandinavian language (as is the Danish-based
Norwegian _Bokmål_), and the Scandinavian languages belong to the North
Germanic branch of Germanic.  Technically speaking, thus, they do not
belong to our "Lowlands" focus.  However, our focus cannot have sharp
boundaries, because non-Lowlandic data are oftentimes quite relevant,
and there have been especially close links between the Scandinavian and
Lowlandic language and culture varieties.  In fact, borrowing between
Scandinavian and Low Saxon (Low German) used to be quite extensive.  Low
Saxon has been influenced by Scandinavian, especially by Danish and
Swedish, partly because of the age-old Dano-"German" overlap on the
Jutlandic/Schleswig-Holstein Peninsula, and partly because of
17th-century Swedish occupation of what are now Northeastern Germany,
Northern Poland and the Kaliningrad area of Russia, all areas in which
Low Saxon is or used to be used.  The northernmost Low Saxon dialects
are very clearly strongly "Danish"-influences, and the South Jutish
Scandinavian varieties (which most consider part of Danish) are
especially strongly Saxonized.  During the era of the medieval Hanseatic
Trading League, Low Saxon served as the international _lingua franca_
along the North Sea and Baltic Sea coasts.  Alienation of the
Scandinavian varieties from the other North Germanic varieties (Old
Norse, Icelandic, Faeroese) is largely due to massive Low Saxon
("German") influence.

In a nutshell then, my apparent "generosity" is warranted, as also
mentioned in our online rules and guidelines
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html):

   Keep discussions relevant.
   Please remember that we deal with the "Lowlands" area. This is
   not synonymous with "Germanic" but excludes German, Luxemburgish
   and the North Germanic languages (Scandinavian, Icelandic and
   Faroese). It is perfectly fine to mention these related languages,
   and any other languages and their cultures for that matter,
   especially wherever there are parallels or connections that are
   useful in understanding topics that are within our main subject
   area. However, the focus must remain on the Lowlands languages
   and cultures. It is all right to sidestep within a discussion,
   as long as the discussion returns to the original focus. But
   this should not be seen as an excuse to start a new, extraneous
   subject line.

Friendly regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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