LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (03) [E/LS]

Fri Aug 2 16:09:07 UTC 2002

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.AUG.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.lowlands-l.net>
 Rules & Guidelines: <http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.01 (06) [E/LS/German]

Leeve Fruennen,

De dialekt vun Berlin is foer mi meer een duetschen
dialekt op nedderduetsch substraat as een
nedderduetschen dialekt, liggers se "ik", oder beter
"ikke", "dette" etc. brukt. Verscheedene oellere in de
luetten doerpers in Brandenborg moegh wul no een rein
nedderduetschen dialekt snacken awer dat stavt wul ut.
Ik hoer ok Vlaams in de Brandenborgschen dialekten
(inkl. Berlin), so as "ikke" un "ditte", veel luet ut
Brabant un Vlaanderen hebbt sik daar daallaaten ut
religioese Gruenn, de luetten hoevels suedli vun
Berlin heeten "flaeming" wat ok darmit to doon haett.

Groeten

Helge

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Dear Ron, Fiete and all

I stand corrected! I have to admit that I do
understand Berlinisch without too many difficulties,
whereas when I listen to Plattdeutsch I can only
understand it if the person is speaking VERY slowly.
However, I thought that South Märkisch would have been
classified as a Platt with large numbers of Middle
German features rather than a Middle German with large
numbers of Platt features!

Is this the same situation in Hamburg? - I'm not very
familiar with Hamburgish, or does that classify as
more Platt-like?

Another question (still under language varieties so I
can hopefully get away with it in the same mail).
Berlinisch has 'ik' but 'machen'. I think I'm right in
saying that Limburgish has 'ich' but 'maken'. Is this
too then regarded as a crossover area between Low and
Middle German or does it have a much stronger Lowlands
tradition?

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Gary,

First of all, let me add an important point I forgot to mention
yesterday: like German dialects, Berlin dialects have /ts/ (written <z>)
and /s/ where LS has /t/; e.g., _zu_ [tsu] 'to' (cf. G. _zu_, LS _to_
[toU] ~ _tau_ [taU]), _Wassa_ 'water' (cf. G. _Wasser_, LS _Water_
['vQ:t3`]), _heeß_ 'hot' (cf. G. _heiß_, LS _hitt_).

I suspect you understand slowly spoken LS because you understand
Standard German and Berlin dialect *and* are a native English speaker.
It would be different if you knew those two German dialects and were,
say, a speaker of a non-Germanic language with little or no English
proficiency.  This is also why many younger Germans can at least
understand a bit when they read LS, because they know German and have
also learned English well enough to make many connections (obviously
words like _Water_ 'water' and _beter_ 'better'), plus, there are many
LS loans in German dialects.  However, it doesn't help them with
previously unknown non-German words of the "Low German" type; e.g.,
_faken_ 'often' (Dutch _vaak_, G. _oft_), _ofschoon(st)_ 'although' (D.
_ofschoon_, G. _obwohl_), _kniepögen_ ("to pinch-eye") 'to wink' (D.
_knipogen_, G. _zwinkern_).  As you can imagine, the people that
understand LS best are speakers of Dutch or Afrikaans with at least some
English and German proficiency.

Gary, the LS-German borderline is not sharply drawn but consists of a
bunch of isoglosses.  The borderline tends to be even more fuzzy in the
east, and, yes, especially the South Mercian (märkische) dialects have
so many German features (e.g., /ts/) that I am enclined to consider them
Central German, while the North Mercian (e.g. those of the Uckermark)
are still clearly LS, and the Central Mercian ones link the two.

You asked about Hamburg, which happens to be where I was born and
raised.  Hamburg (both as city and state) has a lot of dialects, at
least had them a few decades ago.  There are two languages: German and
LS.

The number of true LS speakers has been dwindling fast, and those that
still speak it tend to use it as a closet language, digging it up
occasionally when speaking with old friends or relatives or when getting
in a funny or snide remark, using the language for "effect" (much like
Yiddish is used by some speakers of American English and of Hebrew
within initiate circles) to either express bluntness ("saying it as it
is") or softening what in German might be perceived as harsh or vulgar.
(On my last visit I spoke with old neighbors and found out that they
spoke LS fluently.  I had never known.  They "came out to me" only
because they had found out about my proficiency and interest ...)  There
are several dialects of LS in Hamburg, roughly speaking "northern,"
"central" (island of Wilhelmsburg) and "southern" (Harburg and
Bergedorf), and the latter is devided into marsh dialect (Harburg City)
and _Geest_ (heathland) dialect on higher elevations (Harburger
"Berge").

In Hamburg, German ranges from Standard German all the way to full-blown
Missingsch (= German on a LS substrate), but the latter seems to be
disappearing.  True Hamburg Missingsch is at least as LS-colored as is
Berlin dialect, just differently.  While it has German /ts/ and /s/ (see
above), it uses a lot of LS words, either outright loans or calques, and
many phonological processes are LS.  More importantly, it has a lot of
morphological, syntactic and idiomatic LS features.  For instance, there
is only one objective case.  Syntactically it is predominantly LS, e.g.,
has "split" adverbs; e.g.,

Standard German:
Dazu gibt es Kartoffelknödel und danach (~ hinterher) Gugelhupf mit
Schlagsahne.

H. Missingsch:
Da gieptas Kattoffelklüten (~ Kattoffelklöße) zu, un denn Puffer mit
S(ch)laggermaschüh hinnerher.

LS:
Daar gifft dat Kattüffelklüten to, un denn Puffer mit Slackermaschü
achterran.

"It is (~ will be) served with potato dumplings, followed by pound cake
with whipped cream."

For more information and samples:

Hamburg Missingsch:
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/modkunst.htm

Eastern Prussia Missingsch:
http://www.ostpreussen-humor.de/

What in the German national media is often "sold" as "Platt" is in
reality a type of "media Missingsch," not genuine Lowlands Saxon.

Thanks for your interest.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================