LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.01 (02) [E]
Lowlands-L
admin at lowlands-l.net
Sat Aug 3 22:54:19 UTC 2002
======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 01.AUG.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Web Site: <http://www.lowlands-l.net>
Rules & Guidelines: <http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm>
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================
From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties
Dear All
Thought I'd just add a couple more features of Berlin
that are LS flavoured. day = daach, diminutive of -ken
and there's a mixing of accusative and dative
(apparently this causes great difficulties in schools
when children are meant to be writing Hochdeutsch).
Apparently it has lots of Yiddish, French (Huguenot)
and Dutch loans from various waves of immigrants over
the years (sorry, I can't give examples at the mo).
I've also noted that the former 'Ossies' tend to have
more of these typical Berlin features than the former
'Wessies'. But please also note I'm now not claiming
that it's LS!!
Gary
----------
From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (06) [E]
Very little is left of either language (that of Zetland or Orkney).
There are books available which have brought together such information
as is available (coincidently, I just ordered them from a bookstore in
Orkney). I will try and look them up again this afternoon (I'm at work
and don't have the information at hand, but can get it). I will also
include the sites of which I'm familiar currently on the web.
(I'm doing this on the presumption that this is within the rules or is
an allowable exception -- the obsolete languages of these islands were
North Germanic and are closer in all aspects to Old Norse than to
tongues of the Lowlands.)
Erek Gass
----------
From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (06) [E]
As I promised, here is a list of websites additional to those Ron has
already supplied. I hope that they are helpful.
www.verbix.com
www.verbix.com/document.norn.htm
www.orkneyjar.com/orkney/norn_scott.htm
www.addall.com/Browse/Detail/0404175546.html
("Etymological Dictionary of the Norn Language in Shetland" -- very
pricey at $165 plus S&H)
www.vikingnewmedia.com/~bookshop/acatalog/Orcadian_Bookshop_The_Norn_Language_of_Orkney
and _Shetland_34.html
www.vikingnewmedia.com/~bookshop/acatalog/Orcadian_Bookshop_The_Orkney_Dictionary_108.html
Also, what APPEAR to be sites regarding the modern Shetlandic tongue (I
haven't checked these out):
www.geocities.com/jmtait/zet/noframes.htm
www.orkney.com/orkney/dialect/index.html
I apologise if, by sending these I've strayed from the site's designated
purpose (Lowlands Germanic) -- I'm presuming that the interest stems
from the possible influence these extinct Nordic languages had on the
modern Lowland dialects.
----------
From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.07.30 (01) [E]
All the arguments and comments made are certainly on target. I'd like
to
point out that one of the issues associated with writing a thesis or
dissertation (or any other paper or tome for which a geographically wide
and diverse audience is sought) in a PERFECTLY GOOD, but little studied,
language is simply that the information will not be disseminated as well
or as quickly as it might have been had it been written in a "standard"
language. This situaltion is hardly new. Scholars universally wrote in
Latin through the seventeenth century and knowledge of Latin was
EXPECTED of educated persons. You may recall that John Milton's great
service to his government was being the Latin Secretary to Oliver
Cromwell, and it was through Latin that diplomatic AND academic AND
religious communication was carried on throughout Europe. Before
Cromwell made England a nation to be reckoned with, who was going to
spend time learning the language of a island that was all but a
backwater as far as central European prices were concerned? The
Catholic Church used Latin for its masses till recently for
consistency. Isaac Newton's Principia was written in Latin so that it
would be universally received and read.
It has become a requirement of PhD candidates to have a working
knowledge of two other languages primarily because there is no longer a
"Lingua Franca" as there used to be. And the languages encouraged are
usually those most applicable to the subject matter (e.g., engineers
tend to favour learning German).
All languages are equal. But it isn't practical to treat all languages
as exactly applicable in every context.
----------
From: "botas(club)" <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (03) [E/LS]
Ron wrote:
> What in the German national media is often "sold" as "Platt" is in
> reality a type of "media Missingsch," not genuine Lowlands Saxon.
Unfortunately this is increasingly also true for publications which
pretend
to be devoted to LS, e.g the Quickborn periodical which is bilingual
(G-LS). Some of the LS entries are "translated" from G with syntax and
vocabulary German and only the phonetic presention left "low".
Mike Wintzer
----------
From: "botas(club)" <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (03) [E/LS]
Thanks for all the reactions to my question about Berlinish!
It was caused by my father often correcting me when I was trying to
answer
him in his Berlinish (which he sometimes uses for fun).
Then I came across a rule which made it a lot easier for me:
How to decide whether German -au- shifts to Berlinish -oo- or not.
Surprise answer: Check the corresponding English word:
If it has the -au- sound, Berlinish has -au-.
If not, Berlinish has -oo-.
The rule never fails.
Examples (German - English - Berlinish):
Haus - house - Haus
Maus - mouse - Maus
Laus - louse - Laus
aus - out - aus
taub - deaf - doof
Baum - beam - Boom
kaufen - keep - koofen
laufen - leap - loofen
glauben - believe - jlooben.
So I´m inclined to agree with Helge that the substrate is LS
notwithstanding
what came on top of it later.
Any comments?
Mike Wintzer
----------
From: "botas(club)" <botas at club-internet.fr>
Subject: Broadcasts in Lowlandish
Dear all,
Anybody a short-wave listening amateur?
I came across HCJB broadcasting in what sounded a lower-Germanic
dialect, probably one still alive in South America. Time:
around midnight UTC, freq 11980 kHz.
Mike Wintzer
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Erek,
Thanks for the great list of links (above)! I should have made it
clearer what I was after. Sorry. I was aware of the fact that Norn is
a North Germanic (Scandinavian) language. I also know that it is now
extinct. What I was after when I said "Orcadian" was Scots varieties
specifically of the Orkney Islands (i.e., Scots on a Orcadian Norn
substrate).
Mike,
Some further comparison reveals that there is actually some method to
the apparent madness:
M.Ger. = Modern German
Berlin = Berlin dialect
O.Ger. = Old (High) German
N.Sax. = Modern Northern Saxon (phonemic)*
O.Sax. = Old Saxon
M.Eng. = Modern Standard English
O.Eng. = Old English
M.Ger. Berlin O.Ger. N.Sax. O.Sax. Scots M.Eng. O.Eng.
Haus Haus hûs huuz hûs hoose house hûs
Maus Maus mûs muuz mûs moose mouse mûs
Laus Laus lûs luuz lûs loose louse lûs
aus aus ûZ uut ût oot out uut
taub doof toub douB dôf deef deaf dêaf
Baum Boom boum boum bâm beam beam bêam
kauf- koof- kouf(-) köüp-** kôp(-) chape cheap cêap(-)
lauf- loof- (h)louf- loup- hlôp- lowp leap hlêap-
glaub- jloob- giloub- glöüB- gilôB- beleve believe belêf-
* B = [v] ~ [b] (written as a crossed b in O.Sax.)
** un-umlauted _koup-_ is used in some dialects
Note: Berlin dialect _doof_ [do:f], which entered Common German ca.
1900, means 'stupid' and goes back to Old Saxon _dôf_ 'deaf' >
Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /douv-/ 'deaf', while all
German speakers and most Berliners distinguish _doof_ 'stupid'
from the German cognate _taub_ 'deaf'. So much for a look
back into the "good" old days. "Consolation": most LS dialects
do not directly equate loss of hearing with deficient
intelligence, only indirectly: like German and English, they
equate deficient intelligence with the inability to speak:
_dumm_ ,_dumb_ (LS also _dummerhaft_ "dumb-mannered"). Ah,
well ...
Mike:
> I came across HCJB broadcasting in what sounded a lower-Germanic dialect,
My first guess is that that is "Plautdietsch," i.e., Mennonite Lowlands
Saxon (Low German).
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
==================================END===================================
You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
as message text from the same account to
<listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
* Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================
More information about the LOWLANDS-L
mailing list