From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 1 07:19:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] Beste allemaal Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk ik verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van de oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig is met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Dat wij Nederlanders de neiging hebben Engels (of Duits) te spreken met buitenlanders zou ook te maken kunnen hebben met een Nederlandse (handels georienteerde) karakter waarbij iemand zich onwillekeurig verplaatst in de ander, met hem 'meebeweegt'. Vergelijk: als ik tegen iemand ga fluisteren gaat deze meestal ook fluisteren. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 1 15:20:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:20:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.01 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.11.29 (02) [E] People in Austria say "fünf Euro, 35 cent. Most people pronounce the latter word /sEnt/ though some, especially older people will say /tsEnt/, which seems to be a reading pronunciation because of being the letter /tse:/ in the German Alphabet. Dan >>Concerning the "stuiver", "dubbeltje" etc. in the Netherlands, those terms are indeed a thing of the past, the currency is called "Euro", pronounced with the Dutch "Eu" and you will get "tien Cent" back, not a "dubbeltje". How that works in Germany, Belgium etc. I don't know but I have the impression it will be pretty much the same.<< ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Coinage The person Dan quotes above is Stan Levinson , who posted his request for information on Wed, 27 Nov 2002. Please, everyone, familiarize yourselves with the rules and guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Regards, and best wishes for Advent, for Hanukkah and for the remainder of Ramadhân! __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 04:48:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:48:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.11.29 (02) [E] Dear Helga Ik noem tien eurocenten een dubbeltje en vijf een stuiver; ben ik de enige? Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 05:50:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:50:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.29 (01) [E] Dag Wim, You wrote: >Hollanders get very rude however when they come to the east of the >country of the Netherlands, they refuse to learn eastern dialects, and >tell us here in the east that our dialects are "hillbillyspeach...", >well, I guess there is a difference between real guests, and >countrymen...too bad.. I have always been fascinated by local speech, so when my parents went living in Weststellingwerf (southern Friesland) I applied myself to the mastering of both Friesian and Stellingwarfs. Apparently, this was so unusual that I was invited by the local radio to explain why on earth I was making these attempts to learn their local tongue... I think people too often associate local speech with a lower social stratum and they also seem to maintain the false conception of a dialect being a 'variety' of Dutch (whereas Dutch has, conversely, been shaped by Friesian and Low Saxon (i.e. the languages of 'the east', as you mention)! Groeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Taal- en Cultuurwebstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ---------- From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800, pieter meester said: > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] > > Beste allemaal > Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende > fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk > ik > verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van > de > oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig > is > met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het > doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich > richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Ik ben zelf vlak aan de grens opgegroeid, en later naar het westen van Nederland verhuisd. Hier bemerk ik niet alleen meer onbekendheid met Duitsland, maar ook een negatiever sentiment. Ich glaube, es gibt noch etwas. Wie weiter man von der Grenze geht, wie mehr anti-Deutsche Sentimente es gibt. Ich bin nah an der Grenze aufgewachsen, und später nach den Westen gezügelt. Hier bemerke ich nicht nur eine grössere Unbekanntheit mit Deutschland, aber auch negativere Gefühle. Vriendelijke groeten / Mit freundlichen Gruss, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, Bedankt voor je antwoord (boven). > Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse > grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Dit is op de andere zij van de grens min of meer ook zo, maar alleen wat kennis betreft. In het algemeen is het image van Nederlanders in Duitsland positief, maar de meeste mensen weten van de vooroordelen tegen Duitsers en heeft dus een "omzichtig positieve" denkwijze. Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens mij voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in een vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding tussen Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 06:02:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:02:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.29 (01) [E] Dag Wim, You wrote: >Hollanders get very rude however when they come to the east of the >country of the Netherlands, they refuse to learn eastern dialects, and >tell us here in the east that our dialects are "hillbillyspeach...", >well, I guess there is a difference between real guests, and >countrymen...too bad.. I have always been fascinated by local speech, so when my parents went living in Weststellingwerf (southern Friesland) I applied myself to the mastering of both Friesian and Stellingwarfs. Apparently, this was so unusual that I was invited by the local radio to explain why on earth I was making these attempts to learn their local tongue... I think people too often associate local speech with a lower social stratum and they also seem to maintain the false conception of a dialect being a 'variety' of Dutch (whereas Dutch has, conversely, been shaped by Friesian and Low Saxon (i.e. the languages of 'the east', as you mention)! Groeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Taal- en Cultuurwebstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ---------- From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800, pieter meester said: > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] > > Beste allemaal > Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende > fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk > ik > verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van > de > oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig > is > met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het > doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich > richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Ik ben zelf vlak aan de grens opgegroeid, en later naar het westen van Nederland verhuisd. Hier bemerk ik niet alleen meer onbekendheid met Duitsland, maar ook een negatiever sentiment. Ich glaube, es gibt noch etwas. Wie weiter man von der Grenze geht, wie mehr anti-Deutsche Sentimente es gibt. Ich bin nah an der Grenze aufgewachsen, und später nach den Westen gezügelt. Hier bemerke ich nicht nur eine grössere Unbekanntheit mit Deutschland, aber auch negativere Gefühle. Vriendelijke groeten / Mit freundlichen Gruss, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, Bedankt voor je antwoord (boven). > Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse > grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Dit is op de andere zij van de grens min of meer ook zo, maar alleen wat kennis betreft. In het algemeen is het image van Nederlanders in Duitsland positief, maar de meeste mensen weten van de vooroordelen tegen Duitsers en heeft dus een "omzichtig positieve" denkwijze. Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens mij voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in een vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding tussen Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 11:24:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 03:24:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (01) [D] wkv at home.nl wim verdoold hoi, ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... en er komen vast nog wel meer namen bye! wim ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 12:04:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:04:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language attitudes > > Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook > nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen > Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens > mij > voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met > tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Bij ouderen is dit waarschijnlijk het geval. Maar bij jongeren in de regio zou het toch mogelijk moeten zijn belangstelling voor "oawer 'n poal" te wekken? Zeker nu sommigen meer "regio-bewust" worden als gevolg van de invloed van Europa. > Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een > reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in > een > vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding > tussen > Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Ik zou graag zien dat cultuur en taal van deze regio behouden blijven, en juich samenwerking op dat gebied zeker toe. Maar helaas hebben de Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als het Plattdütsch in Duitsland. Het valt natuurlijk niet te ontkennen dat het oostelijk deel van Nederland en het noordwesten van Duitsland zich qua historie, staatsontwikkeling, regelgeving en gemeenschap op een eigen manier hebben ontwikkeld. Voor een verdergaander samenwerkingsverband zouden er dus nog een paar flinke hobbels genomen moeten worden. Vrendelijke groeten, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Johan Thole (boven): > Maar helaas hebben de > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > het Plattdütsch in Duitsland. "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden dialecten? Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het Nedersaksisch het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... Wenn Ji vun mehr "Status" un "Uutstrahlen" snackt, wat de neddersassischen (nedderdüütschen) Dialekten in Düütschland anbelangt, denn mutt dat mit Juun Dialekten in de Nedderlannen ja besünners böös’ uutsehen! Egaal, up wecke Sied' de Dialekten mehr Ansehn un Uutstrahlen hebbt, een Tosamenkumst un een Tosamenwarken sünd för de hele Spraak vun groot Belang, un all de Dialekten wöörn daar vun Vördelen trecken. Ik sehg' mehr Wedderstand [tegenstand] in Düütschland as in de Nedderlannen, besünners wat wisse Akademiers un Akademien anbelangt. Worüm? Ik bün mi nich seker, kann man bloots gissen. Bürokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside the box? Bang vör de Noodwennigheit Orthographie-Problemen up nich-düütsche Wies' antopacken, wenn 'n de Spraak as internatschonaal un as egenstännig (d.h. nich as nedderlandsch un nich as düütsch) ankieken mutt? Fründliche Grötens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 12:13:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:13:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Wim Verdoold schreef: > ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... > en er komen vast nog wel meer namen Pleitte geier? Pleitte can ik me nog voorstellen (pleitte= bankrupt) maar geier? Is dat bedoeld als het Duitse woord voor gier (vulture)? Zonder zo'n munt bij de hand is het maar moeilijk zo'n betekenis te ontrafelen ... Groeten, Gustaaf ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Coinage German _Pleitegeier_ "bancruptcy vulture" = 'threat of bancruptcy'; e.g., _Über der Firma kreist der Pleitegeier_ ("The bancruptcy vulture is circling/hovering above the company" =) 'The company looks like it is facing bancruptcy/might go under/might bite the dust.' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:22:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:22:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Misschien kunnen we weer de oude Joods-Bargoense woorden invoeren; 'spie' voor een cent en 'pegel' voor een Euro. Het muntstuk van 20 cent wordt al door velen 'kwintje' genoemd; naar analogie met het kwartje. Greoeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Heel-Nederlandse Culturele Webstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:08:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:08:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Subject: Old English language I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, Yinneger, Finniger. Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Thanks in anticipation. Peter Smith E-Mail: peter.smith100 at ntlworld.com ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Welcome to the List, Peter. I wonder if you are dealing with remnants of a variety of "secret" Travellers' language, related to Shelta (Sheldru) which is primarily Celtic-based. The numbers you provided do not seem to be in any variety of Romany. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:45:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:45:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.28 (02) [E] > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: etymology / vocabulary > > Dear Lowlanders, > > In Shakespeare's "Hamlet" occurs an exclamation which seems to be > unique. In > Act I, Scene 5, line 164, 166, or 172 (depending on the edition), where > Hamlet and Horatio are following the ghost, Horatio exclaims: > > O day and night, but this is wondrous strange! > > This appears to be simply an expression of amazement, although it is > not > clear whether "day" and "night" are intended in the sense of parts of a > period of twenty-four hours, or in the senses 'light' and 'darkness'. > (But > the nearest relatives in Shakespeare appear to be swearing > exclamations such > as "by this day" and "by this light".) > Can anybody tell me anything about this exclamation, its meaning and > origin? > Was it borrowed from another language, perhaps? > > Jaap Engelsman Dag Jaap, We do use the term "dag en nacht" frequently , meaning : altijd (weer). We also have: bij dage en bij nachte (ij = [i]) Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Jaap, Like Luc (above), I have been pondering the famous phrase "O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!" ever since you asked about it. I have always assumed, and I stay with this assumption or hunch (until something better comes along) that it is a case of taboo replacement of Shakespeare's time that later got lost in later common speech. What I have in mind is avoidance of blasphemy ("using the Lord's name in vain"), something along the lines of "Golly!" or "Gosh!" replacing "God!", "Oh, dear (me)!" replacing "Oh, dear God!", "Jee(z)!" replacing "Jesus!", "bloody ...!" replacing "by our Lady!", etc. Perhaps "O, day and night!" replaced something like "Oh, dear God!" at the time. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:50:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:50:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > From: Peter > Subject: Old English language > My > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > Yinneger, Finniger. > > Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Hi Peter, I heard somewhere that this a relic of the Celtic spoken by local inhabitants well into medieval times. I.e. because of their isolated existence as hill farmers, Brythonic Celtic continued there despite being an linguistic island surrounded by English (and Norse). See: http://www.yewgrove.demon.co.uk/spirits/faery.htm "Much later on in the time of the Norman conquest it was recorded in the Doomsday Book that many Derbyshire land owners were Welsh speaking." Regards, Edward ---------- From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > From: E Sproston [mailto:eds at nordictrans.plus.com] > Sent: 03 December 2002 16:25 > To: Discussion list for Germanic Lowlands languages and cultures > Subject: RE: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > > > From: Peter > > Subject: Old English language > > My > > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > > Yinneger, Finniger. > > > > Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this > could be? PS - there is an exact discussion on the theme here: http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba48/ba48lets.html "Sheep counting" Edward ---------- From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] And here: http://www.lakelanddialectsociety.org/sheep.htm Edward ---------- From: Glenn Simpson Subject: Old English Language Peter, Saw your thing about the counting system in N Yorks. I know that up to the early 20th C shepards in Cumbria used to use an old British counting system - similar to Welsh. In many northern English Counties this system or variation of it was used up to a hundred years ago. It's a shame that this has virtually died out because it is one of the few examples where British / Welsh language had survived in England - apart from Cornwall of course! Best wishes, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 19:48:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:48:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (05) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.28 (02) [E] > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.24 (03) [D/E] > > Beste Lowlanders, > > Naar aanleiding van de gesignaleerde varianten kopie en kopij, een > gevolg > van meervoudige ontlening, wijs ik op de diepgaande behandeling van dit > verschijnsel in het Nederlands in Nicoline van der Sijs, > "Leenwoordenboek" > (1996), hoofdstuk III 'Tweelingen en meerlingen' (pp. 509-567!). Op p. > 517 > noemt zij kopij / kopie onder de leenwoorden die tweemaal in > verschillende > perioden aan het Frans zijn ontleend, oud en jong. De voorbeelden met > de > uitgangen -ij respectievelijk -ie zijn: > OUD JONG > galerij galerie > kopij kopie > selderij selderie > Commentaar van Van der Sijs: "In oude leenwoorden op Frans -ie is het > achtervoegsel gewijzigd in -ij, in jonge leenwoorden is -ie > gehandhaafd. > Maar bij deze woorden heeft ook vaak herverfransing een rol gespeeld, > zie > hoofdstuk I, 3.1 'Invloed van het Frans'. Bovendien is het > achtervoegsel > -ij produktief geworden, terwijl -ie nauwelijks produktief is Dag Jaap, Dat kan dan wel zijn voor het algemene Nederlands. Voor het (West)Vlaams is het dat zeker niet. Iedereen schrijft daar wel "ij " maar spreekt het altijd als " ie" uit! (bakkerie-beênhouwerie-selderie-kopie-galerie-maolderie-visscherie- schilderie-potterie-apothekerie...) Hier vind ik dat het heel leerrijke boek van Nicoline van der Sijs wel een steek laat vallen. Iedereen weet dat West-Vlaams historisch heel belangrijk is voor de geschiedenis van het Nederlands, maar ik merk daar veel te weinig van in haar turf van een woordenboek. Die (her)verfransing is ook niet zo makkelijk te onderzoeken in een taalgebied dat al altijd van twee walletjes gegeten heeft: Frans en Vlaams mengden zich probleemloos in de loop van de geschiedenis. Dat is nu wel aan het verminderen, maar vroeger was het zeker geen uitzondering om een groep mensen in drie zinnen twee talen door elkaar te horen gebruiken. Groetjes LucVanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 22:43:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:43:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.12.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Several persons have joined us since my last administrative message (November 26). Below please find a list of the places in which they reside. I would like to welcome them all and remind them as well as everyone else that all subscribers are expected to be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). I would like everyone new to know and also to remind those who have been with us longer that the flow and specific contents of questions and information in this forum depend on the input of its subscribers. A couple of people signing off have stated as their reason that the information they had sought had not been presented. Too bad those people did not ask for what they wanted, instead sat back passively hoping that their pet subjects would magically appear if only they watched for a while. Sorry. We are not here to entertain you and read your minds. If there is anything Lowlands-related you wish to know or to discuss, please submit postings to that effect. (Just familiarize yourselves with the rules of posting if you have not already done so: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm.) Furthermore, I would like to remind everyone that we could do with some help translating our language introductions (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), especially into French and Spanish. If you are interested in volunteering, please contact me at sassisch at yahoo.com. With friendly regards and wishes for the holiday season, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net *** Australia: South Australia: Whyalla [1] Belgium: Antwerp: Antwerp [1] Canada: Ontario: London [1] France: Pas de Calais: Le Touquet [1] Kuwait: Kuwait City [1] Malaysia: Kelantan: Wakaf Bharu [1] Netherlands: Zuid-Holland: Voorschoten [1] Poland: Malopolskie: Krakow [1] South Africa: Western Cape: Cape Town [1] United Kingdom: England: Leicestershire: Leicester [1] West Yorkshire: Huddersfield [1] Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Pitmedden [1] Dumfries-shire: Glasgow [1] United States of America: California: Greenbrae [1] Illinois: Altamont [1] Michigan: Grandville [1] ? [1] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 22:48:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:48:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Shepherds Score The Shepherds Score counting survived into the 20th century in Northwest Georgia. A friend of mine from Whitfield County, now in his early 50's recalls his grandmother's bouncing him on her lap saying: Een, teen, tether, feather, sather, lather, have another dig, eeny dig, teeny dig, terry dig, fairy dig, bumpsit, eeny bumpsit, teeny bumpsit, terry bumpsit, fairy bumpsit, gidgit. (If my memory serves me.) A comparison with Welsh numbers will confirm it's of some sort of Brythonic origin. Unfortunately, he does not know where his grandmother learned it. Kevin McAuliff ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 23:39:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:39:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Lamguage varieties" > From: Peter > Subject: Old English language > > I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have > been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets > in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than > modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > Yinneger, Finniger. I posted some comments about this in March this year, so you can read it in the Archives. I can't figure out how to get the URL for a particular posting, so here's the relevant part... As for Brythonic (or "Cymric") in Scotland, I was recently reading an interesting article in the December 1922 edition of the Transactions of the Rymour Club, Edinburgh. It was "Dumfriesshire Rhymes" by Joseph Laing Waugh, who was writer in Scots and a native of Dumfriesshire. Those who follow this sort of thing might be interested in reading some of his assertions about the language in his own locality: It may be interesting to you to know that in counting the numerals up to ten the shepherds in the hill districts still use a speech which by experts is said to be the only remnant left of a distinct language which is known as the Strathclyde Cymric. The kingdom of Strathclyde in the seventh century embraced Cumberland, Westmorland, and the shires of Dumfries, Ayr, Renfrew, Lanark, and Peebles, and sustained with vicissitudes its national character for fully 400 years. Its inhabitants were of two varieties of the British race?-the southern half, including Dumfriesshire, being inhabited by the Cymrie or Welsh the northern by the Damonii or Cornish. Its two most important towns were Carlisle in the south and Dumbarton in the north. Zeendi, Hecturi, Teendi, Zecturi, Taedheri, Aover, Mundheri, Daover, Baombe, Dek. Strange it is that the only fragment of a tongue spoken for so long over so large a part of the country should survive only on the lips of shepherds and old knitting women. I don't know where the assertion that the Damonii were Cornish comes from, but it's certainly interesting to ponder that a form of Cornish may once have been spoken in Scotland! Can anyone offer further enlightenment on this? For comparison, modern Welsh numbers are: Un, Chwech, Dau, Saith, Tri, Wyth, Pedwar, Nau, Pump, Deg. Modern Cornish numbers are (masculine): Onen, Hwegh, Dew, Seyth, Tri, Eth, Peswar, Nau, Pymp, Deg. Two, three and four also have feminine forms diw, teyr, peder, showing more clearly the affinity with "taedheri". It's interesting to note that in Cornish there's the distinction between "onen" = Scots "ane", and "unn" = Scots "ae". Has this feature come into Scots from the Brythonic substrate? The above counting system is still found in children's rhymes in Scotland (or was until very recently?), eg: Zeenty-peenty, heathery-mithery, Bumfy leery over dover; Saw the King o Heazle-Peasil Jumpin ower Jerusalem Dyke; Black fish, white troot, Eerie, oorie, you're oot! This one gets at least as far as nine, but it misses something on the way! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Counting And to add to this: Proto-Celtic: 1=oinos 2=dvai 3=treis 4=qetveres 5=qenqe 6=svex 7=septn 8=octô 9=nevn 10=decn Gaulish: 1=ônos 2=duô 3=treis 4=petor 5=pempe 6=suex 7=sextan 8=oxtû 9=navan 10=decam Devonian (Brythonic): 1 =un 2=deu 3=tri 4=peduar 5=pemp 6=hueh 7=seith 8=eith 9=nau 10=dek Cf.: other Indo-European equivalents, especially 4: Classical Greek (Hellenic): 1= hei:s 2=dúo: 3=trei:s 4=téttares 5=pénte 6=héx 7=heptá 8=októ: 9=ennéa 10=déka Old Prussian (Baltic): 1=ai:ns 2=dwa:i 3=trijan 4=keturja:i 5=pe:nkja:i 6=*usjai 7=*septi:njai 8=*asto:njai 9=*newi:njai 10=desi:mtan Lithuanian (Baltic): 1=víenas 2=dù 3=try~s 4=keturì 5=penkì 6=sheshì 7=septynì 8=ashtuonì 9=devynì 10=de:shimt Latvian (Baltic): 1=viêns 2=divi 3=trî:s 4=chetri 5=pìeci 6=seshi 7=septini 8=astôni 9=devini 10=desmit Prakrit (Indo-Aryan): 1=ekko: 2=do: 3=tao: 4=chatta:ri 5=pañcha 6=ch`a 7=satta 8=atta 9=n.ava 10=dasa Proto-Indo-Iranian (reconstructed): 1=aiwas 2=dva: 3=trayas 4=k'atwa:ras 5=pank'a 6=(k)swacsh 7=sapta 8=ashta: 9=nawa 10=daca Indo-European (reconstructed): 1=oynos/sem 2=duwo: 3=treyes 4=kwetwores 5=penkwe 6=sweks 7=septm 8=okto: 9=newn 10=dekm And to return home ... Old Germanic (reconstructed): 1=ainaz 2=twai 3=thrijiz 4=fithwor 5=fimfi 6=seks 7=sibum 8=ahto: 9=niwun 10=tehun Source: http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm#ie Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:41:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:41:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.03 (09) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.23 (01) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate: > Subject: "Orthography" > > > From: John M. Tait jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk > > Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.16 (02) [S] > > > > Is this an ettle ti _describe_ English spellin or ti _justifee_ > > it? (I'm no > > juist shuir whit ye'r sayin maugre ye gie a puckle mair examples.) Thon > > aboot closed an open syllables seems ti me ti be clutchin at clessical > > straes. > > My description mair or less gauns wi Letts "Getting to Grips > with Spelling" (Letts being thon educational/office stationary > publisher here in the UK). It's naither the tane nor the tither, > mair like "prescription bi description". For English spellin I > dout the'r nae ither option - ye canna prescribe till ye'v > described, an wi English spellin ye never come tae the end o > description - or no athoot writin a hale spellin dictionar, > onywey! Amang the beuks A haed a bit keek intae whan pittin 'Wir Ain Leid' thegither wis: Aw bi William Alexander Craigie, 1969 English spelling : Its rules and reasons . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - VIII, 115 pp. Repr. fae. New York 1927 Some anomalies of spelling - [Repr. fae1942 . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - 26 pp. Problems of spelling reform . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - 29 pp. Repr.fae1944 Gin A mynd richt (aiblins ower semplifeein it a guid bit) English spellin is foondit on twa 'tradeetions' An Anglo-Saxon ane an a French/Laitin ane. Thon's whaur monie o the contradeections comes fae - ower an abuin sindrie haivers that's been brocht in bi dictionar makers an the like. A read a wheen ither beuks anent English spellin an the history o't an aw but A aye seem tae mynd thir three. Aiblins it wis thaim that pit the maiter ower clearest an semplest. Andy Eagle ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Orthography Folk, A maun say A div lik the spellin "eu" insteid o "ui" (e.g., in "beuk" versus "buik") fine. Gin A mynd richt, the conservative pronunciaition is [ø] (as in French _peu_, German _schön_ an Norwegian _kø_). "Eu" is eesed (yeused? yeesed?) for [ø] in French, the langages o the Netherlands an in Afrikaans an aw. Will ye writ "eu" in aw cases, in "geud" an "ceud" an aw, where "guid" an "cuid"'s mair sitable for the byleids o the north ([gwid], [kwid])? A see "guid" abeun in Andy's postin. What aboot/about "oo" or "ou"? Is it aye "ou" noo/nou, Andy an Sandy? Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:43:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:43:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (08) [E] To Sandy: Is Cornish still a living language? I should mention that I had dinner with a Canadian steelmaker , Syd Melbourne of Dofasco Steel in Montreal about 10 years ago, when he mentioned a most peculiar experience. He and his friends landed by boat on an island in the Chesepeake Bay where they encountered a population that spoke a form of English that no one could understand. After a while though, it began to sound familiar. It then came to him. He had last heard this language while spending his summers in the Cornish countryside as a young child. Then he began to understand the language a bit. Now he described the language as a form of English but is it possible that this population actually spoke the Keltic Cornish language? Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:46:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:46:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (11) [D/E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (05) [D/E] Gustaaf Van Moorsel wrate: > Wim Verdoold schreef: > > > ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... > > en er komen vast nog wel meer namen > > Pleitte geier? Pleitte can ik me nog voorstellen (pleitte= > bankrupt) maar geier? Is dat bedoeld als het Duitse woord > voor gier (vulture)? Zonder zo'n munt bij de hand is het > maar moeilijk zo'n betekenis te ontrafelen ... R. F. Hahn wrate: > Subject: Coinage > > German _Pleitegeier_ "bancruptcy vulture" = 'threat of bancruptcy'; e.g., > _Über der Firma kreist der Pleitegeier_ ("The bancruptcy vulture is > circling/hovering above the company" =) 'The company looks like it is facing > bancruptcy/might go under/might bite the dust.' Is this 'Pleitegeier' mebbes adae wi the fact that the German Govrenment finds itsel in a bittie o a kinch acause o haein tae haud wi ECB policies adae wi states haein siller on lend oot ower the amoont specifee'd bi the ECB (an Euro treaties)? Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:19:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.12.04 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: the list Hoi allemaal! Ron wrote: I would like everyone new to know and also to remind those who have been with us longer that the flow and specific contents of questions and information in this forum depend on the input of its subscribers. A couple of people signing off have stated as their reason that the information they had sought had not been presented. Too bad those people did not ask for what they wanted, instead sat back passively hoping that their pet subjects would magically appear if only they watched for a while. Sorry. We are not here to entertain you and read your minds. Actually Ron, I don't think you need to defend yourself at this point. I believe our current societal attitudes have a lot to do with people's displeasure. The world, unfortunately for me, does not revolve around me, me, me. You're right. If one never submits their "pet subjects," these topics will never be discussed. And if one does not get help on a particular topic, it may be because no one on the list knows. Ah, if only I knew all. (Zwar weiss ich viel, doch möchte ich alles wissen - a little Faust) I say, don't let our egos force you into unnecessary apologies. Kevin Browne ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Thanks for your support (above), Kevin, which is very much appreciated, as is your enthusiasm and your preparedness to state what you don't know and wish to know. I also appreciate your efforts to pass on to your students some of the knowledge you gain here. Passing on our knowledge is one of our missions, and a part of that is passing it "down" to the following generations. This is also one of the reasons why I am very, very delighted that we have a lot of quite young people on this list, beginning somewhere in the mid-teens (who have joined with their parents' or guardians' permission). This is also why I feel extremely pleased and encouraged to be "surrounded" by a wonderful, enthusiastic, creative team working on our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), with a good number of rather young friends such as Mathieu van Woerkom (Netherlands), Roman Laryushkin (Ukraine) and Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro (Brazil), to name but a few. This morning we have been joined by two new Lowlanders from the United States, one from Rochester, New York, and one from Lawrence, Kansas. Both of them are interested especially in Low Saxon (Low German) as their ancestral language. I send them a friendly welcome and encourage them to share their interests after familiarizing themselves with our basic rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). It is wonderful to see that there is a steady increase of the number of subscribers in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand who wish to rediscover Lowlands Saxon and other Lowlands languages that used to be used by their ancestors and in their ancestral immigrant communities. With best wishes for the festive season, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:27:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:27:58 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.04 (02) [E/Cornish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Tom, The Cornish language died out in the 1700s. There is a revival movement but the chain of native speakers was broken. The Chesepeake Bay dialect you refer to is well known to dialectologists. It is an archaic English dialect with a lot of southwestern influence certainly - but sorry - Cornish it ain't. Best wishes George Gibault ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Tom Byron wrote: >>Is Cornish still a living language? I should mention that I had dinner witha Canadian steelmaker , Syd Melbourne of Dofasco Steel in Montreal about 10 years ago, when he mentioned a most peculiar experience. He and his friends landed by boat on an island in the Chesepeake Bay where they encountered a population that spoke a form of English that no one could understand. After a while though, it began to sound familiar. :It then came to him. He had last heard this language while spending his summers in the Cornish countryside as a young child. Then he began to understand the language a bit. Now he described the language as a form of English but is it possible that this population actually spoke the Keltic Cornish language?<< Tom Wheg, Yth yw an Kernowek tavas bew unweyth arta. The Cornish language is once again alive. Cornish was no longer a community language by around 1800. There were probably some indivuduals who had knowledge of the language. Sentences, words, phrases, prayers and the numbers were remebered by some as late as the beginning of the 20th century. Fish were counted in Cornish on the fish market in St Ives up to the 1930ies. There were quite a few Cornish emigrants, mostly miners and farmers, to the Americas, but mainly to Australia. How many of them were Cornish speakers is not known. I know of one Cornish speaker in the 18th century who emigrated (I`m not sure whether it was the US or Canada) and corresponded with his family in Cornish. The year 1904 is generally seen as the starting point of the Cornish language revival, which is when Henry Jenner published his "Handbook of the Cornish Language". Today Cornish has approximately 300 fluent speakers, and probably another 2000 or 3000 speakers of varying competence. There are neo-native-speakers, children of Cornish language enthusiasts raised in Cornish. Cornish is also being learnt in many emigrant communities throughout the world. Since there is no community in which the majority (or even a largish minority) consists of Cornish speakers, I very much doubt that whatever your friend Syd Melbourne heard was the Cornish language but rather was dialect English. I think any native speaker of English could spot an English dialect, even if he understood little of it. Cornish is so different that it would have been recognised as an entirely different language instantly. Older Cornish people still speak the English dialect which had replaced the Cornish language. The dialect of eastern Cornwall is a continuation of the dialects of Devon, with little lexical and structural influence from Cornish. The dialect in the West of Cornwall is different in that it has a more noticeable Cornish substratum and is phonologically closer to standard English. But there is phonological influence from Cornish (mainly the diphthong /IU/ instead of EastCornw./Devon /Y/) and the intonation of West Penwith is very distinct and seen to be a survival of Cornish intonational patterns. I should think these last to sentences saved me from being too much off-topic. So if anyone would like to know more about the Cornish language I`d be glad to answer any of your questions. (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com). Yehes da dheugh lemmyn ha woja hemma ynwedh /`Eh at z daa dhIUh `lEbm at n (h)@ `udj@ hEbm@ @`we:dh/, or: /´ɛhəz dæ: ðɪ� h `lɛbmən (h)ə � dʒə ´hɛbmə ə´we:ð/ "Good health to you now and afterwards, too" Dan ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Hi Thomas, Possibly the English tongue that they heard in the Chesepeake Bay was an English dialect; Cornish was extinct already in the 19th century. Currently the language experiences an upsurge among Cornish people who have taught the language to themselves through books or courses. Cornish is too much a Celtic language to be mistaken for an English laguage. Regards, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:30:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:30:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.04 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp Subject: Counting Dear friends, When I read the following posting, I thought if I could find any similar ocuting examples in a book tilted "A TRASURY OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE" edited by B>A> Botkin Cronwn Publishers New York 12th Printing, July 1945. Quote: From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Shepherds Score The Shepherds Score counting survived into the 20th century in Northwest Georgia. A friend of mine from Whitfield County, now in his early 50's recalls his grandmother's bouncing him on her lap saying: Een, teen, tether, feather, sather, lather, have another dig, eeny dig, teeny dig, terry dig, fairy dig, bumpsit, eeny bumpsit, teeny bumpsit, terry bumpsit, fairy bumpsit, gidgit. (If my memory serves me.) A comparison with Welsh numbers will confirm it's of some sort of Brythonic origin. Unfortunately, he does not know where his grandmother learned it. Kevin McAuliff Unquote I found examples as follows: No. 1. 1. ane 6. sother 11. een dick 2. tane 7. lother 12. teen dick 3. tother 8. co. 13. tother dick 4. feather 9, deffrey 14. feather dck 5. fip 10. dick 15. bumfrey, and so on No. 2. 1. een, 6. sother 11. een dick 2. teen 7. lother 12. teen dick 3. tuther 8. porter 13. tither dick 4. futher 9. dubber 14. futher dick 5. fip 10. dick 15. bumpit, and so on...... Also one more expamle was printed together with the above. A footnote this attached: These examples of the "Anglo-Cymric score"....were obtained .... from Mrs. Ellis Allen of West Newton, now ninety years old of age, who was born at Scituate, Mass, where she learned the formula; and ... of her daughter, who learned it from as Indian woman, Mary wolsomog, of Notick. Though mother and daughter, neither had ever heard the othr's version of ther score. To illustrate the relation of this score with Welsh numerals, we add two examples from Elli's paper ("reprinted for private circulation from the Transactions of the Philological Society for 1877-8-9" pp. 316-372), selected from his fifty-three versions; the first is from England , the second from Ireland. I have not any knowledge in this field, but I felt as if I had ever read similar descriptions, having read Kevin McAuliff's posting. So, I posted this mail. I hope that I've not gone off the point. Yasuji Waki y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:32:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:32:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (04) [LS/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] R. F. Hahn schriev Unner anners als antwoord op Johan Thole (un vieleich annern ook) > > Maar helaas hebben de > > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > > het Plattdütsch in Duitsland. > > "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden dialecten? > Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het Nedersaksisch > het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... > > Wenn Ji vun mehr "Status" un "Uutstrahlen" snackt, wat de neddersassischen > (nedderdüütschen) Dialekten in Düütschland anbelangt, denn mutt dat mit Juun > Dialekten in de Nedderlannen ja besünners böös’ uutsehen! > > Egaal, up wecke Sied' de Dialekten mehr Ansehn un Uutstrahlen hebbt, een > Tosamenkumst un een Tosamenwarken sünd för de hele Spraak vun groot Belang, > un all de Dialekten wöörn daar vun Vördelen trecken. Ik sehg' mehr > Wedderstand [tegenstand] in Düütschland as in de Nedderlannen, besünners wat > wisse Akademiers un Akademien anbelangt. Worüm? Ik bün mi nich seker, kann > man bloots gissen. Bürokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside > the box? Bang vör de Noodwennigheit Orthographie-Problemen up nich-düütsche > Wies' antopacken, wenn 'n de Spraak as internatschonaal un as egenstännig > (d.h. nich as nedderlandsch un nich as düütsch) ankieken mutt? Dat glieke güüld ook för dat Scots. Op in Ulster öer ob in Schottland selvst. Een tosamenkumst küünt alienig dat spraak goedes doen. Dat schriefwies moet dat iegenstänige art dat sprak overbringe. Wi hebben ook lüüd de jummer gloeven moeten dat mensk Scots schriefen moet as 'abwandlung' vön dat Engels. Wat ick selbver nichs anners as 'dialekt denken' beschrieven kann. Dat hiet nich, dat dat schriefwies anners as Engels sien moet oaver et moet as selvststanniges system doar stannen künne. Ick witt dat Ron mit anner lüüd toohoop, hier viel schrieft heft, oever een schriefweis dat dialekten overbrüken küünt. Dat moet all 'kliene' sprake hebben sonst hiet dat nichs anners as dialekten blieven moeten. Wi hebben ook Akademiers de jummer dat glieke vertellen. Ick gloev de lüüd hebben op n school an universität nichs anners lärnt hebben as onser spraaken soo too sahn. Mehr doar too, wenn mann loos latten will mit concepten wie 'language planning' de glieke lüüt wüüln jummer too gloaven gefe dat de dialekten nich 'mutually comprehensible' sünd aover lüüd de dat as moeder sprak hebben, vertellen wat anners. Ik bün ook nich sicher wat de lüüt doar too bringt. För wat hebben de lüüt angst? Wie Ron dat schrieft heft: Bürokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside the box? Keek dat mol een bitken anners an. Stell dat soo vör, du hefft dien gante leven lang een zoo opbüüd un op een mol wülln die apen du vertelln wo dat lang geit. Wat do opbüüd hebbst wull du för dich selver höllen un nich de apen overlatten. Ick gloeve dat hiet 'Social linguitics'. Wat ick studiere kann nich so clever sien wie ick selver. Toerüüg inne n schublade. Dat küümt me nich op n kopp dat too studiere wat ick selver bün. (Na goed, we doen dat, aover we sünd nich all welts lüüd.) Andy Eagle P.S. ick heff nichs tegen wenn lüüd mien bitken versoek op Nedersassisch too schrieve verbettern wölln. Schrief op n list wat ich truch n anner kriegt heff. Its no ma mither tongue, an A can tell ye it isna a schuil bairn's denner dealin wi't. Onie wey, hae guid wind in ye sails! Or as Dr. Spok pits it: Lang mey yer lum reek! (Live long and prosper V) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:33:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:33:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (03) [E] Hi! I wonder if "day and night" may refer to those odd times when the moon has not quite set - but it is visible in the early morning sky? best wishes George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:35:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:35:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Subject: Old English Language Thanks to all those who replied so promptly to my question. It seems that what was being used was a form of Bryonic Celtic used for counting sheep and of particular interest were the tales of granny singing a rhyme containing the numbers. Thanks again Peter ---------------------------------------------------- I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, Yinneger, Finniger. Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Thanks in anticipation. Peter Smith E-Mail: peter.smith100 at ntlworld.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 17:04:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:04:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (11) [D/E/S] Dear Andy et al., the "Pleitegeier" refers to the German federal emblem, the eagle (as in "Andy Eagle"...), which is also found on the back of one and two Euro coins. It is also found on all kinds of official documents, including the seals which the bailiff places on items that are officially seized for not being able to pay one's bills. In this function, it is also called the "Kuckuck" (cuckoo). As for the fulfilment of ECB policies... let's change the subject, shall we? :-P Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (01) [D] ga ik doen, kwintje Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van het kwartje de laatste niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse cultuurkring verdwijnt. Sinds Napoleon hebben we (officieel) al geen halve en kwart voeten of duimen meer. Maten die gebaseerd zijn op het menselijk lichaam en die je zonder meetgereedschap kunt gebruiken. Onze Engelse vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart tot 132ste inches. In de USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. Pieter Meester ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words My father, who spoke mostly Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and Missingsch (LS-based German), used to use a naming system for coinage that seemed to be on its way out when I was a child and seemed to have hung on in his circle of shipbuilding workers and longshoremen. The system seems to be rooted in a superceded (pre-Mark), probably non-decimal monetary system. The following is all I can remember, besides the still used _Mark_ [ma:k], _Groschen_ [['grOSn=] '10 Pfennigs', and German _Pfennig_ / LS _Penn_ [pE.n] ~ _Pennig_ ['pEnIC] ~ _Penning_ ['pEnINk] 'Pfennig': _Sechser_ ['zEks3`] ("sixer") '5 Pfennigs' (!) _Daler_ ['dQ:l3`] (German _Taler_) ("dollar") '3 Marks' _Heiermann_ ['ha.I3`ma.n] '5 Marks' _Pund_ [pU.nt] (German _Pfund_) ("pound") '20 Marks' Does anyone know more about this? Rumor has it that _Heiermann_ comes from Hamburg LS _Heuer_ ['hO.I3`], common LS _Höör_ [hœ.I3`] ~ _Hüür_ [hy:3`] (cognate of English 'hire'), denoting a sailor's wages. A contradictory rumor has it that it comes from old merchant jargon (Rothwelsh?) _hei_ (or _heh_) for 'five', thus Yiddish-based, referring to the Hebrew letter _hey_ "h" which also stands for "5". Neither rumor or theory explains the _...mann_ ("man") part. Thanks in anticipation. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 17:56:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:56:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language attitudes > > Johan Thole (boven): > > > Maar helaas hebben de > > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > > het Plattdütsch in Duitsland. > > "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden > dialecten? > Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het > Nedersaksisch > het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... Ik geleuf, deur wa´k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d´r toch mear gaangs met bint. Twents kuiern wöt nog steeds veul as "boers" oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ´t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek´n. En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat plat proat´n dom steet. Ik heb´t bettien Twents da´k sprek ok op stroat lear´n mötten. Ie hebt geliek a´j zegt dat d´r mear saam´nwerkt möt wodd´n. Een algemene schriefwies zol al ´n good begin ween. En mear uutwisseling lek mie ok good too. Ik geleuf da´j dat van unnerop zol mötten beginn´n, en nich möt wacht´n tot de "officiële instanties" de kop bie mekoar stekt. Bedankt veur oen antwoort! Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, > Twents kuiern wöt nog steeds veul as "boers" > oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ´t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek´n. > En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat > plat proat´n dom steet. Ik heb´t bettien Twents da´k sprek ok op stroat > lear´n mötten. Dat is in Noorddüütschland ook nich anners, besünners in de Städen. Ik hebb 't ook up de Staten un “liesen” lehren möten. In de School harren wi man bloots 'n paar Leder un Riemels lehrt, as 'n Deel vun “Heimatkunde” ... un denn harren se 't heel un deel an de Kant smeten, vun wegen “ungenügende Mittel” un “unwichtig” un so'n Tüdelkraam. > Ik geleuf, deur wa´k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d´r toch > mear gaangs met bint. Dat is man bloots *nu* so. Nu de Spraak offitschell gellen dait, hett se batts wedder 'n paar "fair weather friends," Lüüd', de mit ehr vördem niks to doon hebben wullen un ehr nu up'n Maal "chic" findt -- the flavor of the day, nice and off-mainstream ... Un düsse "Frünnen" findt ehr "niedlich" un "noch so schön derb und urig" un nehmt ehr nich för vull. Up düsse Aard Fründschupp hang ik mien Hood nich up; dat ka' 'k Di seggen. Andy: > P.S. ick heff nichs tegen wenn lüüd mien bitken versoek op Nedersassisch too > schrieve verbettern wölln. Schrief op n list wat ich truch n anner kriegt > heff. Dat wöörd' ik geern doon, Andy. Mien Probleem is, dat ik den "snaakschen" westerschen Dialekt vun Dien Rebeed nich kann (ofschoonst ik em verstah). > Onie wey, hae guid wind in ye sails! > Lang mey yer lum reek! Un 'n goden Wind ook in *Dien* Sails, un Dien Schosteen schall ook lang röken. (Ik glööv', Dr. Spock hett maal seggt, dat is beter to wünschen as rökene Sails un Wind in d'n Schosteen.) Grötens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 22:18:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:18:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (09) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Pieter Meester schreef: > Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van het kwartje de laatste > niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse > cultuurkring verdwijnt. Er is altijd nog het zestigtallig stelsel van minuten in een uur en seconden in een minuut. > Onze Engelse > vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart tot 132ste inches. In de > USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. Dat heb ik hier nog nooit gezien. Ik heb zelfs de indruk dat de USA veel meer hecht aan het feet/pound systeem dan andere Engels- talige landen. Gustaaf ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Hoi Pieter, nee, daar kan ik je (helaas) geruststellen: in de USA gebruiken ze nog altijd van die gekke onderdeeltjes van inches, en ze vinden dat de rest van de wereld het eigenlijk ook maar zo moest doen. Daar wordt je naar van als je probeert om een amerikaanse gebruiksaanwijzing te volgen... iets uitteknippen b.v.... en je vraagt jezelf maar: waarom doen ze dat nou als het anders zo veel makkelijker is? Ron, the "Heiermann" is still in use in German slang - I hear it quite frequently in the Ruhrgebiet. It seems to have a somewhat comic connotation, though. Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 22:19:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:19:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.04 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (05) [E] Hi, >From wim verdoold wkv at home.nl about counting time by saying "day and night...." In Genesis one in the bible the time is counted like that. , And our for fathers counted the days in nights of sleep. In fact we still do when talking to our children...one more night till Sinterklaas!... So it's rather normal to use that line I hope this added something.. Moi! Wim. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 23:32:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:32:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: Information needed Dear all, My name is Marcel Bas and I live in the Netherlands. I read English Culture and Language at the Leiden University and my field of interest on the linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages in general, Dutch migr and the etymology of Indogermanic languages. A few years ago I was also subscribed to the Lowlands-L, for several years and I spent some time, during my subscription, in South Africa. Currently, although the exams for this semester are 'nigh', I am conducting research for a webpage which I intend to create for the Afrikaans-Dutch web site 'De Roepstem', which I manage and build continuously (http://roepstem.tripod.com). I want to collect information ob the few Dutch Creole languages that are known and compare them to Afrikaans. Dutch creoles have most rarely been considered a serious subject, but the last decade has shown three scholars who take interest in this. Negerhollands, Berbice Dutch Creole and Skepi Dutch are my main points of interest; Cefas van Rossem's book 'Die Creol Taal' I already have in my possession, and I have borrowed Silvia Kouwenberg's Berbice Dutch Creole (1991) from the university library. A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch. Noteworthy is that both Skepi Dutch (Guyana) and Negerhollands (US Virgin Islands) were recently extinct (sadly!) and Berbice Dutch (deriving from the Zeelandic dialect Zeeuws) still survives with a few speakers in Guyana. Could anybody please give me suggestions for further reading, or could somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages? Little is yet known, literature is scarce so most chunks of information on this subject will be new to me. This is truly an interesting subject! Bij voorbaat mijn dank, Marcel Bas, Voorschoten. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:38:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:38:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (09) [D/E] Gustaaf, Jij hebt gelijk. Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en lengte betreft) te doen hebben. Mijn zusje heeft zelf meerdere keer gezegt "Oh, I just cannot understand that Metric System." Not understand, zeg ik? Kun je tot tien tellen? Moeten jullie echter niet geloven dat Amerikanen dat foot-inch-ounce-pound stelsel beter begrijpen!!! I think it has something to do with our resistance to a system of "proportional representation" in elections! :) Stan > Pieter Meester schreef: > > > Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van > het kwartje de laatste > > niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en > getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse > > cultuurkring verdwijnt. > > Er is altijd nog het zestigtallig stelsel van > minuten in een uur > en seconden in een minuut. > > > Onze Engelse > > vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart > tot 132ste inches. In de > > USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. > > Dat heb ik hier nog nooit gezien. Ik heb zelfs de > indruk dat de > USA veel meer hecht aan het feet/pound systeem dan > andere Engels- > talige landen. > > Gustaaf ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure Hello, Gabriele wrote: nee, daar kan ik je (helaas) geruststellen: in de USA gebruiken ze nog altijd van die gekke onderdeeltjes van inches, en ze vinden dat de rest van de wereld het eigenlijk ook maar zo moest doen. Daar wordt je naar van als je probeert om een amerikaanse gebruiksaanwijzing te volgen... iets uitteknippen b.v.... en je vraagt jezelf maar: waarom doen ze dat nou als het anders zo veel makkelijker is? Nee, Gabriele, dat denk ik niet. Ik vind niet dat de rest van de wereld moet doen zoals wij het doen. Ik vind de inches, enz. ook heel gek, maar de meeste mensen luisteren niet naar mij terwijl ik altijd zeg, dat wij vreemde talen moeten leren. Mijn stem is heel klein, precis als mijn invloed, maar ik doe wat ik kan. Langzam maar zeker, hé? There are a lot of things I would change here. (But man, it sure is nice living in the U.S., because I'm so close to the center of the universe. I don't have to revolve too much) (That's a joke, just in case you were wondering.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:41:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:41:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (02) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Marcel: I have been engaged in private correspondence with Marco Evenhuis, giving him names and addresses of people I have known who grew up speaking Dutch in the Catskills in New York and individuals of the Jackson White community in New Jersey/New York. The latter apparently spoke a sort of creole Dutch and he is going to see if he can dig up a few surviving speakers. I just got an e-mail from him today, explaining that he has not caught up with his work but that he will continue his pursuit when he can. I am sure that he will report his findings in this site when he is ready. Tom Byro -----Original Message----- From: Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Lowlands-L Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:33 PM To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] From: Marcel Bas Subject: Information needed Dear all, My name is Marcel Bas and I live in the Netherlands. I read English Culture and Language at the Leiden University and my field of interest on the linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages in general, Dutch migr and the etymology of Indogermanic languages. A few years ago I was also subscribed to the Lowlands-L, for several years and I spent some time, during my subscription, in South Africa. Currently, although the exams for this semester are 'nigh', I am conducting research for a webpage which I intend to create for the Afrikaans-Dutch web site 'De Roepstem', which I manage and build continuously (http://roepstem.tripod.com). I want to collect information ob the few Dutch Creole languages that are known and compare them to Afrikaans. Dutch creoles have most rarely been considered a serious subject, but the last decade has shown three scholars who take interest in this. Negerhollands, Berbice Dutch Creole and Skepi Dutch are my main points of interest; Cefas van Rossem's book 'Die Creol Taal' I already have in my possession, and I have borrowed Silvia Kouwenberg's Berbice Dutch Creole (1991) from the university library. A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch. Noteworthy is that both Skepi Dutch (Guyana) and Negerhollands (US Virgin Islands) were recently extinct (sadly!) and Berbice Dutch (deriving from the Zeelandic dialect Zeeuws) still survives with a few speakers in Guyana. Could anybody please give me suggestions for further reading, or could somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages? Little is yet known, literature is scarce so most chunks of information on this subject will be new to me. This is truly an interesting subject! Bij voorbaat mijn dank, Marcel Bas, Voorschoten. ---------- From: ezinsser at worldonline.co.za ezinsser at worldonline.co.za Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Haai almal Marcel, jy skryf: ""A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch."" Sal jy dit 'n bietjie nader kan toelig, miskien met voorbeelde? Groete, Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:47:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:47:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.05 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) andy at scots-online.org Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.03 (09) [S] Ron Hahn spiert: > Subject: Orthography > > Folk, > > A maun say A div lik the spellin "eu" insteid o "ui" (e.g., in "beuk" versus > "buik") fine. Gin A mynd richt, the conservative pronunciaition is [ø] (as > in French _peu_, German _schön_ an Norwegian _kø_). "Eu" is eesed (yeused? > yeesed?) for [ø] in French, the langages o the Netherlands an in Afrikaans > an aw. The follaein's taen staucht fae: http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/spellguide.htm an is hou A deal wi thae maiters. The spelling represents the internal diphthong in words like beuk, eneuch, teuch, neuk and heuch etc. This is pronounced either /ju/, /jV/ or /V/ depending on dialect. (See also below.) The spelling for the vowel sound in words like guid, ruif, tuim, spuin, puir, juist and truith etc. This is pronounced /y(:)/ or /ø(:)/in conservative dialects. In Northern dialects this is usually pronounced /i(:)/ and /wi/ after /g/ and /k/. In Central dialects this is pronounced /I/ when short and /e:/ when long. (See the Scots Vowel-Length Rule in Phonetic Symbols). Note uise and uiss are [je:z] and [jIs] in central dialects. Many of these words have English cognates which are spelled as a result some writers mistakenly spell some words with where, in fact, they should be spelled . Before /k/ and /x/ the original vowel sound became /ju/, /jV/ or /V/ depending on dialect. (See above.) Note fit (foot), room, wid (wood) and oo (wool). > What aboot/about "oo" or "ou"? Is it aye "ou" noo/nou, Andy an Sandy? The spelling is used for the vowel sound /u(:)/ in words like hoose, aboot and soond in order to avoid confusing with the English pronunciation. The traditional Scots spelling for /u(:)/ is used in all other words where confusion with the English pronunciation is unlikely. Many writers use either or for this /u(:)/ sound in all words. The digraph is always pronounced /u(:)/in Scots, except in Southern Scots, when final, it is pronounced /Vu/. The spelling for the vowel sound /u(:)/ in words where the spelling is established e.g. dule, bure, hure and wure etc. > Will ye writ "eu" in aw cases, in "geud" an "ceud" an aw, where "guid" an > "cuid"'s mair sitable for the byleids o the north ([gwid], [kwid])? A see > "guid" abeun in Andy's postin. "eu" wadna be uised in 'guid' (good) at aw. Some fowk writes the Scots cognates o 'could' an 'should' wi "ui". A dinna gree wi thon acause the unnerlyin phonemes disna follae the paitrens for ordinar associate wi "ui" as abuin. A juist uise the spellins 'coud' an 'shoud' the emphatic maik. Thare is o coorse the maik /kwId/ in the North-East an the unemphatic /kId, kVd, SId, SVd/ no tae mention the aulder sud/soud (should). "eu" wadna be onie better a spellin here aither acause o the selsame unnerlyin phonemic paitrens. Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 16:39:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:39:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Stan Levinson schrijft: > Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets > bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste > mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en > lengte betreft) te doen hebben. In het verleden zijn er wel halfslachtige pogingen geweest op het metrieke stelsel over te gaan maar dit is nooit echt aangeslagen. Heel af en toe zie je afstandborden in mijlen *en* kilometers. Ik weet van een net ten zuiden van Santa Fe op de I25 die de afstand naar Albuquerque in beide eenheden aangeeft, maar dat is dan ook het enige voor- beeld in New Mexico. Elders heb ik dit alleen sporadisch in Californie gezien. De enige metrieke voorbeelden in het dagelijkse leven waar ik op kan komen zijn: plastic Cola flessen in twee en drie liter uitvoeringen, wijn in 750ml flessen, en medicijnen in gram en mg. Het wordt voor ons metriekelingen helemaal ingewikkeld met combinaties van eenheden. Miles/gallon is normaal voor benzineverbruik, and acre-foot voor irrigatie (populair hier in de woestijn). Maar ik houd nu op voor Ron me op de vingers tikt dat ik wel erg ver ben afgedreven van een Lowlands onderwerp! Groeten, Gustaaf ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Dear Stan and Kevin, well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to insult any Americans, but you caught me anyway. :-) Of course I didn't mean to offend; consider it a heartfelt sigh from someone who lived in the States for eight years and, having three children in school, had to deal with those obscure measurements on a daily basis. You've already mentioned feet, inches, ounces and pounds. But there's also degrees Fahrenheit, fluid versus solid ounces, stones, yards, acres, square feet, the whole cup/tablespoon/teaspoon thing, bushels, gallons, quarts, several different kinds of miles... and don't even get me started about that "gaggle of geese" and "bevy of beauties" thing. I used to say that the thing that REALLY amazed me ist that Americans actually measure time in hours, minutes and seconds... it seems to be the ONLY measurement they have in common with the rest of the world. You're right, even the voting system seems to fit this pattern! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Gabriele: > well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to insult any Americans, > but you caught me anyway. :-) We caught you preaching to the choir. It is telling to observe that Americans who live(d) abroad (like Stan), are widely traveled and/or are interested in the world outside their own (like Kevin) tend to have no problem -- philosophical or educational -- with the "metric" system all countries but theirs now use -- yes, even the "mother country" Britain and her British Commonwealth offspring. It needs to be remembered that most countries at one time or other switched from their own "weird" little measuring systems (and there used to be many) to the universal one, that all of them survived it, some with less whining, moaning, temper tantrums, irate letters to editors and psychological trauma than others. I happened to move to Australia when that country "became metric." What bitching and moaning! You have no idea! People complained and complained. "How big is a meter?" they'd ask me expecting an equivalent in feet and inches. Instead, I'd hold up my hands in about a meter's distance from each other, or hold up a metric ruler and show them, "This big." That's all they really needed to know. Sure, it was hard to convert, for instance in the building trade where all sizes had been inch-based. But, guess, what: people got over it, joined the world and aren't the worse for wear. They knew they *had* to, because Australians have never had any delusions of grandeur. Britain and the British Commonwealth were the last countries to convert, and now the US is the odd one out, but few people here seem to care. And why should they? Foreign countries and companies cater to their wishes by communicating with Americans using the old system, and they supply goods by this system to suit the (large) American market. American conversion to the universal system would happen sooner if the rest of the world refused to continue doing so ("Sorry, we don't do inches.") It is also interesting to note that American scientists, including everyone working in any medical field, use the universal "metric" system internally (and almost secretly) and translate information to the old system only for the general public. Did this happen voluntarily, or was it because their collaborating colleagues elsewhere refused to play the "Imperial measures" game to cater to their wishes? Armed with this knowledge, and being bothered by the rapid erosion of respect for patients' privacy in the American health care system, I always provide the metric versions of my height and weight in doctors' offices and hospitals, and I refuse to give the "American" equivalents. At least this way I avoid giving out *some* personal information to most patients that inevitably are within earshot. See if I care! > I used to say that the thing that REALLY amazed me ist that Americans > actually measure time in hours, minutes and seconds... it seems to be the > ONLY measurement they have in common with the rest of the world. Ah, yes! But why? Think about it! It don't need no countin' to *ten*, babe! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 18:04:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:04:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] At 07:38 AM 12/05/02 -0800, Stan Levinson wrote: >Jij hebt gelijk. Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets >bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste >mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en >lengte betreft) te doen hebben. Mijn zusje heeft zelf >meerdere keer gezegt "Oh, I just cannot understand >that Metric System." Not understand, zeg ik? Kun je >tot tien tellen? >Moeten jullie echter niet geloven dat Amerikanen dat >foot-inch-ounce-pound stelsel beter begrijpen!!! >I think it has something to do with our resistance to >a system of "proportional representation" in >elections! :) I heard an American comic one say, "If God wanted us to use the metric system, he would have given us ten apostles instead of twelve." Here's a comeback for Americans who say that the metric system is more confusing than their own: How many yards in a mile? Or how about this: Which is heavier an once of feathers or an once of gold? (gold is measured in apothecary onces, which are heavier). But which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold? Wrong. (there are only twelve onces in an apothecary pound as opposed to the standard sixteen). Imagine: before Canada went metric, things were even screwier, since we used the Imperial Standard, which has different sized onces, gallons, measuring spoons, and more! Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: "Ian James Parsley" Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Ron and Gabriele, I think it is interesting, though, to follow what is 'left over' from such a change. Without wishing to make any form of political point, it frustrates me immensely that we in the UK decided to change in 1965, and never completed the job, while our 'daughter countries' went ahead and got on with it! Still we have miles and yards (even though the people constructing the roads use metric), and talk feet/inches and stone/pounds. (For those who have never visited, yards are even used on roadsigns where feet would be in the US.) Although it could be worse - the Irish Republic uses metric for distances ('Áth Cliath/DUBLIN 75km') but miles an hour for speed limits ('30 mph')! Confusing! They hadn't considered that all cars to the UK/Ireland (left-hand drive) market give prominence to miles; and they also replaced distance signs *gradually* (older signs are still in miles, you have to seek out the 'km'), which obviously they couldn't do with speed limit signs. But I wonder off-topic a little. Firstly, in the English-speaking world the conversion has not been completed. Australia uses kilos, but still feet/inches for height. The UK and Ireland are very mixed - I much prefer km but would struggle to give either weight or height in metric (even though I favour complete conversion NOW!) Canada of course went metric and there are big warning signs indicated as much at the US border, but nonetheless I've heard Canadians using the 'old' measures. Then there's the issue of what happens elsewhere. Germans still refer metaphorically to a 'Meilenstein'. Did I mishear a soccer commentator say, after a shot that glazed the bar, 'Zentner!' (where an English-speaker would say 'inches!')? Could 'Zentimeter!' as an exclamation be used as an equivalent? And of course the old idea that metric measures would mean the end of the 'traditional British pint' are as untrue as the idea that metric measures are a 'European directive' (like I say, the decision was taken 8 years before entry to the EEC!) - Germans do, after all, still have their 'Pfund' in colloquial parlance. Yes, the metric system is definitely miles better! ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Dear Ron, your reply really had me in stitches - especially the last bit. But I've seen the same - everybody is actually complaining about how HARD the metric system is. Come again?! One litre equals the volume contained in ten by ten by centimeters, or one kilogram of water. And don't tell me it's so hard to remember that water freezes at zero degrees, and boils at a hundred. A chimp can remember that. Maybe that's the problem - all these complicated measurements give people a sense of achievement once they have figured them out? After all, I was very proud of myself when I had learned the mysteries of DOS, and felt downright offended when Windows came along and suddenly EVERYBODY could use a computer without making the same effort that I had made. ;-) On the other hand, neither my husband nor my ex-husband, both American and college graduates with a science degree, could ever explian to me the difference between a fjuid and a solid ounce, and which one would apply to measure applesauce, for example. Another theory is that, since the USA are a young country without a long history, they like to stick to whatever they feel they have in the way of tradition. That would also explain why all their paper money is still green and you can never tell at one glimpse how much you actually have in your wallet, while most other countries are using colour-coded bills, often with additional information in Braille. Of course, it's not like we Europeans are all that innocent in that respect. Remember how, decades ago by now, the "calory" unit was officially replaced by "Joule"? It's not like anyone has ever adapted to that (although I guess they would have easily if the calory information were simply no longer provided). Also, Germans are never really sure how to pronounce "Joule". Een prettige Sinterklaasavond toegewenst! Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Ian: > Then there's the issue of what happens elsewhere. > Germans still refer metaphorically to a 'Meilenstein'. There are still such linguistic fossils in German and in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) -- e.g. also G. _meilenlang_ and LS _mielenlang_ ("miles long") 'very long/far'. But they do not denote actual measures anymore. You can also talk about G. _Daumenbreite_ ("thumb's width"), and you have the good old _Zollstock_ (LS _Tollstock_) ("inch stick") 'folding rule' (which nowadays shows metrics). > Did I mishear a soccer commentator say, after a shot > that glazed the bar, 'Zentner!' (where an > English-speaker would say 'inches!')? A _Zentner_ is the old German equivalent of a hundredweight. It is the equivalent of 1000 _Pfund_ (pounds), and a _Pfund_ (LS _Pund_) is 0.5 kilograms. A _Zentner_ is thus 500 kg. It's just a remnant of the old system, as is the _Pfund_, but they have been adapted to the international system from one in which their values were somewhat different. > Could > 'Zentimeter!' as an exclamation be used as an > equivalent? I have a feeling the commentator was referring to the force of the kick, a "bomb", a "whammy," rather than to the closeness to the bar. (See about _Zentner_ above.) Gabriele: > After all, I was very proud of myself when I had learned the mysteries of > DOS, and felt downright offended when Windows came along and suddenly > EVERYBODY could use a computer without making the same effort that I had > made. ;-) Darn, huh? I went through the same experience, and then again when I had "mastered" HTML script and HTML editing programs came out. Join the club! There are many of us. This is what happens if you have to be at the forefront of stuff and can't wait for the bandwagon to come along. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:35:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:35:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.05 (06) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Dear all, Whit like are ye? Sut ydych chwi? I'm currently doing my duty and working my way through Colin's Scots language learner, and at the same time teaching myself Welsh - mainly cos I don't want to be an ignorant Brit that doesn't know any of the other languages from his country of origin. One thing that I've noticed through learning them side-by-side is the use of the 3rd person singular with plurals when the plurals aren't a pronoun. Eg. Scots : he is, they are, but the bairns is Welsh : y mae ef, y maent hwy, but y mae'r bechgyn (the boys 'is') I'm presuming that this is similar in Scots Gaelic - also being Celtic. My question is, is this an influence of Gaelic on Scots, or is this feature an inheritance from the Old Northumbrian dialect from which it descended? Also, are there other such grammatical influences from Celtic in Scots? I would have tried to write it in Scots, but I didn't want to embarrass myself, and mangle your language in the process! Gary ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Gary: > I would have tried to write it in Scots, but I didn't > want to embarrass myself, and mangle your language in > the process! Sae ye lat me be gawkin an guffin an playin the blunnerin Scots-learnin bummle lee lane? Noo, that's conseederin! Dinna be feart noo! Nummers coont, ye ken. Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:42:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:42:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (05) [D/E] Ed, I couldn't wait to try that one on my American husband. He got the weights wrong (hee hee), but he knew without even thinking how many yards are in a mile: 1770 - or so he says (but then, he has a great head for trivia). Ron: I'm afraid you've been out of the country for too long. A "Zentner" comes to 100 German pounds (500g each), and thus to 50 kg, not 500 kg. Remember that especially heavy people are often referred to as "Zwei-Zentner-Frau" or "Drei-Zentner-Mann". According to your reckoning, they'd have to weigh a ton or more! I know your opinions always carry a lot of weight, but this time you rather overdid it! :-D Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: corber Subject: metric In Canada we started metric many years ago,but then we elected a Conservative government who stopped it.So now we have it 50/50. Produce and meat is priced at both metric and Imperial.. Building supplies are mainly in Imperial. Distance and,fluids are metric.Land was surveyed in miles and feet. Automobiles are metric exept the wheels are in inches as they are in the rest of the world I believe.. I have never been able to figure how the US started Brititish ,then changed their gallons to a smaller gallon and developed machine threads to a system they call SAE. The British untill metrification used more than one machine thread system. Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: measure words Gabrielle, I was not offended. I've lived here in the States all my life and it's still amazing to me how many people in this country walk around as though no other country or language exists. This year, as in many years past, I had a student say: ,,why can't they just speak English like we do?" I replied: Yeah, after all Adam and Eve spoke English and anyone speaking one of those other languages is going to hell." They didn't know I was joking, but I think I got their attention. By the way, I have a thermometer outside my front door that was a gift and it only has celsius. I use it all the time. (Zal ik een jasje dragen of niet?) Ik wens dat we allemaal Nederlands kon spreken...de mooiste en vriendelijkste taal ter wereld. Maar dat is alleen mijn opinie. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:44:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:44:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.05 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Could you tell me something about Dutch 'pink'? There has been some interesting talking now about 'celtic' counting in english dialects. This brings me to Dutch 'pink'; one of my old favourites. Here we go: Dutch 'pink' means 'little finger'. Origin of this word is not known [to me, that is]. But always I liked to understand this word 'pink' as the 'fifth finger'. [Here you have it connected with the counting-talks.] But: understanding 'pink' als '5th finger', means that I like to see it as an Indo-European word, meaning 'the fifth'. The final '-ink' may be linked to Indo-European. The initial 'p-' may be be linked to Indo-European. But combining P with INK [as a Germanic construction] is a trick I am not able to do. Is 'pink' an I-E fossile? Or is 'pink' a fossile of a language very much in the neighbourhood of Old-Germanic, eg. of the language of the Kaninefates / Canninefates [Kennemers]? And this is just saying that the language of these Canninefates was not real Germanic, shame on me! OK, let us deal with substrates: I like making theories about substrates, but working with substrates in practise always turns out to be a mess. Who helps me out? And: what is the first evidence of 'pink' in Dutch or Franconian? All questions, but no answers, unless you ... vr.gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:47:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:47:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (09) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (02) [A/E] Thomas: Thank you very much for the information. I must say that was fully unaware of people speaking creole Dutch in the United States. Is this a remnant of the early Dutch settlements in New York in the 17th century? Marco Evenhuis I know from his fascinating contribution to the Zeelandic site "Bel-bel's Belangriekste Afleveringen", where he writes about Berbice Dutch after an interview that he had with Berbice researcher Silvia Kouwenberg. I'd appreciate it very much if you will keep me informed on Evenhuis's progress! Elsie, nou sal ek gou-gou oorskakel op hierdie pragtige Afrikaanse taal waarin jy skryf: >"A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack >labialisation >in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often >assimilated in the >surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and >there are other >similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch."" > >Sal jy dit 'n bietjie nader kan toelig, miskien met voorbeelde? Ja, ek sal. Daardie afwesigheid van labialisering, of ronding, maak dat 'n /y/, soos in _duur_ nie met albei lippe toegerond geproduseer word nie, maar met die lippe effens meer ontspanne. In Nederlands, nes in Duits bij woorde met __, rond ons die lippe wanneer ons _huur_, _U_, __buren_, _ berhaupt_ s. In Afrikaans rond die sprekers die _uu_ nie, waardeur dit amper klink soos 'n _ie_ (die tong se stand is dalk anders as wanneer jy 'n egte _ie_ produseer, maar in die foneemapparaat van 'n Nederlander klink dit maar die einste). So is die werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: /styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ Nou sien jy ook wat bedoel ek met die verval van werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' werkwoord, soos in Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. En die middelste /g/ en /x/ kry 'n apokopee (is 'apokopee' regte Afrikaans?): in Ned. 'tegen' is die middelste /x/ nog teenwoordig, terwyl hy in Afrikaans verdwyn het. Soms spreek mense in Afrikaans die telwoord _nege_ uit as /ni at g@/, pleks van /ni at x@/. Hier lyk dit vir my dat die /g/ sal verdwyn in Afrikaans, indien dit nog nie so ver is by party sprekers nie. Dalk is die /g/ 'n oorgangsvorm van /x/ na volledige verdwyning. So het ons in Afrikaans berg (mountain) - berge (mountains) - bre (to store), wat almal van die Ned. stam _berg-_ af kom, maar uiteindelik alle drie verskillende realiserings van die /x/ het: /bErx/ - /bErg@/ - /bEr@/. Morgen - m re is vergelykbaar; /g/ raak in die /r/ geassimileer. Groetnis, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:04:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:04:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Dear Lowlanders, While our Jewish subscribers are in the middle of their Hanukkah season (November 30 - December 7 this year), our Islamic subscribers today approach the end of their fasting month Ramadhân (November 6 - December 5 this year) and are looking forward to tomorrow's `Id al-Fitr, a day of feasting with family and friends. To all of them friendly and warm holiday wishes: ﻚﺭﺎﺒﻣ ﺩﻳﻋ `Id Mubârak! (Sorry. This was just too tempting an opportunity to test if graphics and Arabic script can be processed.) Meanwhile, in Christian-rooted homes all over the Continental Lowlands, children young and old are eagerly awaiting tonight's or tomorrow's arrival of St. Nicolas (Santa Claus, Sinterklaas). I hope that all of our subscribers in the Dutch-, Flemish-, Zeelandic-, Limburgish- and Low-Saxon-speaking areas have been more nice than naughty all year and will get at least a little something from Old Nick. We North Germans have the best of both worlds: Sünnerklaas on December 6 (with small gifts in shoes left on a window sill), and then, from the German tradition, the Wiehnachtsmann (German Weihnachtsmann, Father Christmas) on Christmas Eve (December 24). That means prezzies twice! Happy holidays to all of you on behalf of Lowlands-L! Regards, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net P.S.: A little Lowlands Saxon (Low German) selection from years gone by: [Translations below] 1) Sünner Klaas, du gode Bloot, geev mi 'n Stückje Sukkergoot, nich to vööl un nich to minn, smiet mi't man to de Schösteen rin! 2) Slaap, Kindken, slaap! Bold ritt de Sünder Klaas, un slöppst du denn, denn kümmt he ran, vun Gold so blank, de hillige Mann. 3) Sunner Klaas, de grote Mann, kloppt an alle Dören an. Lütte Kinner bringt he wat, Grote stickt he in 'en Sack. 4) Sünder Klaas dat is 'n Eddelmann, 'n Eddelmann is he, he hett 'n Büx van Krinten an, 'n Rock van Risebree. Sien Oogskes sünd Rosientjes, sien Hoor dat is Söötholt. Sien Lippen sünd van Sukkergood, sien Wangen sünd van Gold. 5) Lebe gode Sünner Klaas, büst öber alle Kinner Baas, ried op dienen Schimmel vun den hogen Himmel. Unsen Pollo bindt wi an, dat he di nich bieten kann. Hillige Mann, gah nich vörbi, Sünner Klaas, wi bidden di! == (Draft translations) 1) Sinterklaas, you dearest blood, Give me a piece of sugar bread, Not too much and not too little! Throw it down the chimney to me! 2) Sleep, my child, sleep! Soon Sinterklaas will ride, And if you'll sleep then He'll approach Aglow with gold, The holy man. 3) Sinterklaas, the great man, Knocks on all the doors. He'll bring gifts to little ones. He'll stick big ones in the sack. 4) Sinterklaas, he's a nobleman, A nobleman is he. Wears breeches made of gingerbread A coat of rice pudding. His little eyes are raisins. His hair, it's licorice. His lips are made of candy. His cheeks are made of gold. 5) Dearest, kindest Sinterklaas, You are all the children's boss. Come riding on your white horse Down from heaven high! We'll tether our Pollo So he won't go and bite. Holy Man, don't pass us by! Sinterklaas, we beg of you. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: `Id-Mubarak.gif Type: image/gif Size: 17679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:20:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:20:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:36:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:36:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E/LS/S/Russian] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Gabriele's digressions and transgressions Gabriele: > Personally, I have this thing for > Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved > Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. > > But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron > forgive me this once. Na, ye hiv been ower coorse an will find nocht bit a kneevle o coal in yer shae the morn! Нет, Вы были слишком непослушны и найдете только глыбу угля в вашей обуви завтра утром! Nee, nee! Du büst veel to unaardig west un schast morgen fröh man bloots in Stück Kohl in dien Schoh finnen! Old Nick (a.k.a. The Ron) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:18:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:18:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.05 (11) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Lowlands-L wrote: > From: j_thole at ftml.net > > Ik geleuf, deur wa´k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d´r toch > mear gaangs met bint. Twents kuiern wöt nog steeds veul as "boers" > oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ´t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek´n. > En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat > plat proat´n dom steet. Ik heb´t bettien Twents da´k sprek ok op stroat > lear´n mötten. Ik ben bang dat ik je teleur moet stellen. De attitude mag dan in duitsland en nederland hetzelfde zijn: plat is boers en ouderwets, maar ik was als Emslander in Groningen wel verbaast dat er nog jonge mensen waren die plat (of fries) met elkaar praten. Dat zou je in Muenster of Osnabrueck niet zo gauw overkomen. Dat streektalen nog alive and kicking zijn (gemeten aan de situatie in duitsland) kun je ook er aan zien dat streektalen nog gebruikt worden om cultuur te beoefenen. Te denken valt aan Skik en Ede Staal, of aan Herman Finkers (die helaas gestopt is) en Normaal. Of aan, ook al is het niet nedersaksisch maar wel laaglands, Rowwen Heze, Flip Kowlier, en niet te vergeten de film Nynke. Mijn indruk is dat in duitsland het plat een onderdeel van de Folklore is, en je wellicht een Shantychor vind, of een amateurtheatertje die een platduits blijspel opvoerd, maar dan heb je het wel een beetje. Als iemand mij van het tegendeel wil overtuigen, graag. De groeten Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:23:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:23:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] At 11:42 AM 12/05/02 -0800, Gabriele Kahn wrote: >I couldn't wait to try that one on my American husband. He got the weights >wrong (hee hee), but he knew without even thinking how many yards are in a >mile: 1770 - or so he says (but then, he has a great head for trivia). I rest my case: it's 1760. I guess we'd better not ask him how many chains, rods, furlongs........ Ed ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Gustaaf, Ron, et al. Gee, this is really getting amusing. Gustaaf, i think you can see nobody took any offense. What's even funnier than our system, is that I seriously doubt there is anyone who actually masters our system. Most people get feet/inches, ounces/pounds, but even when it comes to liquid measures, only kitchen wizards are able to interpret teaspoons-tablespoons-cups-pints etc. You can see why it's so hard to change: it's not that people like the system (they don't know it!, it's "just because", which is the hardest thing to change! Also, re Australia, two things: When Australia first went metric in money, I remember reading an anecdote of a woman who went to the butcher, was told her purchase came to (say) $3.85, and she asked "How much is that is REAL money?" Actually, that may or may not be apocryphal, but I am fanatic about Australian Rugby League and watch the games on the Internet, and more than once I've heard an announcer say (for example), "he's 172cm, about 5'8" in the old language." The OLD LANGUAGE!!! That is rich! So to those announcers, there's no consciousness of a system changing, it's more like a "new language"!!! Lest there be any confusion, by the way, I absolutely LOVE almost anything Aussie, and in fact those Aussie rugby announcers, especially Ray Warren, are great. Stan Gustaaf wrote: > well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to > insult any Americans, > but you caught me anyway. :-) Ron wrote: I happened to > move to Australia when that country "became metric." > What bitching and > moaning! You have no idea! People complained and > complained. "How big is > a meter?" they'd ask me expecting an equivalent in > feet and inches. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:32:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:32:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E/LS/S/Russian] Ron schreef: >I hope that all of our subscribers in the Dutch-, Flemish-, Zeelandic-, >Limburgish- and Low-Saxon-speaking areas have been more nice >than naughty all year and will get at least a little something from Old Nick. and further: > Nee, nee! Du büst veel to unaardig west un schast morgen fröh man bloots in > Stück Kohl in dien Schoh finnen! > > Old Nick > (a.k.a. The Ron) Uhmmm... Ron... I hate to point this out to you, since you left me all those good wishes for tomorrow (you see, I'm diabetic and sweets would actually be bad for me)... but... you ARE aware that "Old Nick" is not the same as ""Old St. Nick", but is, in fact, a name for the muckle de'il - de Düwel - the devil himself, right?! Remember the song "Ghost riders in the sky" where "they say Old Nick himself was seen along the trail"? Thus I'm not so terribly sure what to make of your heartfelt message for all Lowlanders... ;-) Somewhat apprehensively, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Gabriele: > Uhmmm... Ron... I hate to point this out to you, since you left me all those > good wishes for tomorrow (you see, I'm diabetic and sweets would actually be > bad for me)... but... you ARE aware that "Old Nick" is not the same as ""Old > St. Nick", but is, in fact, a name for the muckle de'il - de Düwel - the > devil himself, right?! Sure. So you *were* paying attention! I was just checking. ;) Isn't Old Nick the one who supplies the lumps of coal for the naughty ones? Cheers, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: And, for your information, American banknotes are now about to go multicolored! So there! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 00:17:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:17:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (14) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] While I can appreciate the attempt at inclusiveness by mentioning Jewish and Islamic holidays, why is it that no attempts are made to include other world religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Native American traditions, Wicca, Asatru, Druidism? Or am I the only non-Christian, non-Jew, non-Muslim on the list? Candon McLean ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Candon, You have a point. However, I do occasionally refer to and wish people well on holidays of other religions, such as Chinese New Year (since I know we have a fair number of Chinese subscribers) and Wicca Yule and Samhain (although I did not know if anyone on the List follows it). I do so if I am aware of such holidays and I am sure that there are at least several subscribers who follow a given tradition. Christianity, Judaism and Islam happen to be the three predominant religions of Europe (including Lowlands Europe), the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, and most of our subscribers live in those parts. What provoked me to send out greetings during this particular period is my awareness that currently holidays are coinciding in these three traditions. As far as I know, Yule will be on December 21, as will be Celtic Alban Arthuan and Alban Heruin, and Kwaanza will be on December 26. Holiday wishes ought not be considered my exclusive domain and responsibility. Anyone on this List should feel free to send them. By all means! Since we talk about diversity in this regard, my greetings go to Buddhists on the List (if any) on Bodhi Day (Japanese Rohatsu) on December 8! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 01:15:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:15:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (15) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (15) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Stan wrote: > Gee, this is really getting amusing. Gustaaf, i think > you can see nobody took any offense. > Gustaaf wrote: > >>well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to >>insult any Americans, >>but you caught me anyway. :-) Ik dacht dat Gabriele dat schreef; ik was het in ieder geval niet. Ik heb allang geleerd me aan de niet metrische maten aan te passen. En terug in Europa betrap ik me erop dat ik de afstanden in km in mijlen omreken al is het alleen maar om het met bekende afstanden in de USA te vergelijken. Zoals gezegd, er blijven problemen voor mij als er twee maten wor- den gecombineerd (pound-foot for torque) of als er meer dan normale precisie nodig is (bij 38.1 graden C kan ik me de koorts precies voorstellen, maar bij 100.8F kan ik dat nog steeds niet.) Groeten uit Socorro (49F) Gustaaf (5'11", 208lb) ---------- From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Ed writes (about yards/mile): > I rest my case: it's 1760. This is not difficult to remember if you know that athletic tracks in the US tend to be 440 yards in length. There is even a world record for this distance, which by the way is very close to 400m. Well, these tracks are also a quarter mile in length, so yards per mile is 4 x 440 = 1760. An area in which yards and feet are the official norm all over the world is soccer. Many in the Netherlands know that at free kicks the wall needs to be at a 9m 15cm dist- ance from the ball, and in Germany they use "Elfmeter", where few will know that the official distances are 10 and 12 yards, respectively. The size of the goal is 8 yards wide and 8 feet high all over the world. Gustaaf (USSF Referee) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:29:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:29:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (14) [E] Ron, thanks for the other world religion's holiday wishes! > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > Holiday wishes ought not be considered my exclusive domain and > responsibility. Anyone on this List should feel free to send them. > By all > means! OK, when the time comes I'll wish every one a Good Yule and 'ware the wild hunt! ;-) Candon McLean ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] To Gabrielle Kahn: My children regard themselves more as New Yorkers than as Americans. My daughter (born in Manhattan) thought that she would never leave the city but is happily settled in Basel now.It is not Westphalia but it is much more like home than Pennsylvania. I brought her up bi-lingual Hochdeutsch and English. And yes, on December 6th, I would have her and my other children leave their shoes outside the door. They never did get a lump of coal but it was a close thing at times. They never got to hear the pounding of the boots of Nikolaus and his helpers and the jangling of the chains around their waists and worry if they were going to be beaten on the spot but they allways got candy in their shoes. I was just thinking about my daughter when I read your posting. Assuredly if she were here with me, she would find candy in her shoes in the morning. I would see to it myself, if necessary. Tom Byro From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] == Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:38:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:38:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (03) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Beste allemaal Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde taal in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het zou minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen dat het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? Pieter Meester ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.05 (11) [D] Ik heff de soelvigen indruck, ik kenn wul no genugh in min doerp bi Rendsborg de no to Hus met eer oellern platt snack aver all mang de kinner soelvens snack se doch meist hochduetsch, in Nederland is dat doch no een beten anners, daar dreep man doch no genug jonge luet de perfekt Friisk, Nedersaksisch or Limburgsch snakken, se suend sik wul ok een beten stolter op eer spraak. Jues in de nordduetschen stede is nedersaksisch doch meist heelsch vergeten, mi is dat ni blot eenmol passeert dat junge luet op Engelsch antern wenn ik ut spaas eer op plat anspreek, de weet garni meer dat man voer hunnert wul kuum wat anners hoeren daeich in de nordduetschen stede as nedersassisch, ik gloef dat schull een in Groningen ni passeeren. ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: digression Hallo Gabrielle, I love to hear the Scots as well. Perhaps though, this is one of those, "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" things. I must confess that I especially enjoy hearing the women speak Dutch. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:40:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:40:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.06 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 Candon McLean wrote: <> Candon Wheg, You mentioned "Wicca". A couple of years ago I bumped into a couple of Anglo-Saxon style Pagans and they kept speaking of the "wikka". Being heavily involved in Old English studies at the time I told them that OE had a palatal double consonant and was most likely pronounced something like "witcha" /witSa/. They laughed at me and that really pissed me off. I then checked my favourite dictionary THE COLLINS and found the phonetic transscription /wik@/ for this revived Old English word. That pissed me off even more. I don`t know why this gets to me like that, I`m not even a believer!!! Gans oll ow holon vy, Perplexed-at-his-own-reaction Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:33:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:33:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.05 (08) [E] Theo, According to the etymological sources that I have read, the word 'pink' could indeed have derived from an IE root from which also words like Welsh 'Pump' (five), 'five', Greek 'penta' (five), but also the Germanic words 'finger, vinger, Finger' have sprung. The books also seem to agree that 'pink' must indeed be an IE fossil. No hypothetical reason for this un-Germanic relic was given, but the conservation of the initial _p_ could be due to the small size of the finger; in 'little languages' people tend to replace fricatives by plosives, such as little children do. For example, when children in Holland need to take their vitamines, the children as well as the parents will refer to the pills as 'pitamientjes'. Maybe this relic was preserved by children's language? Regards, Marcel. >From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com >Subject: Etymology > >Could you tell me something about Dutch 'pink'? > >There has been some interesting talking now about >'celtic' counting in english dialects. >This brings me to Dutch 'pink'; one of my old >favourites. > >Here we go: >Dutch 'pink' means 'little finger'. >Origin of this word is not known [to me, that is]. > >But always I liked to understand this word 'pink' as >the 'fifth finger'. >[Here you have it connected with the counting-talks.] > >But: >understanding 'pink' als '5th finger', means that I >like to see it as an Indo-European word, meaning 'the >fifth'. >The final '-ink' may be linked to Indo-European. >The initial 'p-' may be be linked to Indo-European. >But combining P with INK [as a Germanic construction] >is a trick I am not able to do. > >Is 'pink' an I-E fossile? >Or is 'pink' a fossile of a language very much in the >neighbourhood of Old-Germanic, eg. of the language of >the Kaninefates / Canninefates [Kennemers]? And this >is just saying that the language of these Canninefates >was not real Germanic, shame on me! > >OK, let us deal with substrates: I like making >theories about substrates, but working with substrates >in practise always turns out to be a mess. >Who helps me out? > >And: what is the first evidence of 'pink' in Dutch or >Franconian? > >All questions, but no answers, unless you ... > >vr.gr. >Theo Homan ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (13) [E] Dear Ron, Ha! I'll have you know that the Nikolaus has been very good to me. No coal, no brimstone. So there yourself. > P.S.: And, for your information, American banknotes are now about to go > multicolored! So there! Why, did the good old saint bring YOU a brand-new box of crayons?? I don't want to risk being on Santa's naughty list as well (although my latest contributions have been blamed on Gustaaf, so I'm probably safe), so here's a serious question: does anyone know why the devil would be called "Old Nick", then? It does indeed seem odd that this is so close to "St. Nicholas" that it even has our favourite linguist confused. And is there any connection with the word "nickname"? Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:42:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: john feather Subject: Afrikaans? John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word "taakhaar", which presumably from the context is of South African origin and means something like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has revealed no other source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the exact meaning? John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:47:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:47:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.06 (06) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Language varieties - Negerhollands > From: Marcel Bas > Subject: Information needed > > my field of interest on the > linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages ... > somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages > This is truly an interesting subject! Sure is! In the beginning of the 1800s Denmark was still a multiethnic (minor) empire. It was comprised of indigenous subjects speaking - besides Danish (plus "Jutish" and "Bornholmsk", for those of us who believe in the Ethnologue) - Norwegian, Lappish, Faroese, Icelandic, Greenlandic, German, Platt and Frisian. (And a spatter of Bengali, Tamil and Akan in Denmark's minuscule Asian and African trade colonies. All sold by 1850). AND Negerhollands, a "Dutch Creole" in Denmark's American colony. After the "loss" of Norway, in the 1830s Charlotte Amalie (still the main city in the Virgin Islands) was the second largest city of the Danish Empire. English (and Danish too, I suppose) were the high status languages. But the colonialists' children were brought up by Black slaves, thus probably making their Creole, Negerhollands, the mother tongue of even the white upper class of the largest city in Denmark outside Copenhagen! There are not many traces - and almost no awareness, academic or elsewhere - left of this amazing historical peculiarity. The population and their islands were sold "en gros" to the US in 1917. Negerhollands itself went extinct in 1987 with the passing away of Ms. Alice Stevens. This aspect of Denmark's language history has not been studied very much, to put it mildly. For the 80th anniversary of the sale of the islands I produced a broadcast in Danish public radio about Negerhollands. The basis of the broadcast was an interview with the Danish-speaking co-author of "Die Creol Taal", Hein van der Voort. Excerpts of the translated introduction might interest Lowlands aficionados: " [sound bite] It is now 10 years ago Miss Alice Stevens, whom you just heard, died, 90 years old. With her, the language which you just heard, also died. It was called Negerhollands. It was spoken in the Danish West Indies, the 3 islands of St. Thomas, St Croix and St John. Precisely today it is 80 years ago Denmark sold the islands to the USA, without asking the population, ignoring their protests. At the time of the sale in 1917 the local Danes, most of whom were of West African ancestry, spoke mainly English Creole. But during most of the Danish colonial period, the islanders spoke neither English nor Danish, but Negerhollands, which as mentioned died with Miss Alice Stevens 10 years ago. The Great Discoveries and Slavery created a number of new Mixed languages, called Creole languages, all around the West Indian region, and in fact all around the world. There are several hundreds such languages. The vocabularies of Creole languages are in most cases of European origin, but the grammar is quite different. Negerhollands is one of those Creoles which came into being in the West Indies around the year 1700. Negerhollands looks of course like Dutch [and Zeelandic], from which it got the major part of its words, but not the grammar. Creoles are often taken to be a simplification, or even a collapse [lit. breaking on the torture wheel] of both grammar and pronunciation. That is why Creoles are often seen as an degraded, inferior, backwards, primitive version of the source language, just like the slaves, whose language it was, were seen as inferior humans. But the Creole also became the mother tongue for many of the Whites, since they were brought up and taken care of by African women. In the middle of the 1800's the capital of the island, Charlotte Amalie, was the second biggest town of Denmark, but it was not Danish which was the dominant language. There are traits in Creoles that do not originate from ANY of the original contact languages. This is why one cannot just regard Creole languages as defective varieties of the source languages. This fact was pointed out already by the Danish linguist Rasmus Rask at the beginning of the 1800's. [Rask was the discoverer of what was later to be labelled "Grimm's Law"] Creoles occupy a special position among the world's languages: We know when they emerged, namely at contact. One cannot similarly date the emergence of Danish, eg.g. Creoles therefore give an outstanding possibility to study how languages are born. Thus the study of Creole languages, creolistics, can contribute to our knowledge about how the human brain functions. From where do Creoles get their neologisms? What are the minimum requirements of grammar in order for a language to function satisfactory? Negerhollands occupies a special position for several reasons. - It was the first language about which the word "Creole" was used. - The world's first Creole grammar was published in Copenhagen in 1770, J.M. Magens Grammatica [etc.]. - A remarkably large collection of literature in the language has been preserved. [almost all of it religious, of course. I e ] It is a selection from this literature which the two Dutch creolists van Rossem and van der Voort published from Amsterdam University Press [1997]. The book consists of an introduction of about 50 pages and some 200 pages of texts in Negerhollands, translated into English, analysed and commented. The texts owe their existence to the missionaries' wish to convert the Africans to Christianity. That should happen in a language they could understand. So hymns, prayer books, the lesser catechism, NT and parts of OT were translated into Negerhollands. Grammars and dictionaries were made, and ABCs, primers and textbooks. In 1732 the Brethren's Congregation [Herrnhut] decided to mission on the Islands. Some years later, their leader, count Zinzendorf visited the islands, and at his departure he ordered a farewell letter to be written, which is the oldest Negerhollands text in existence.[sound bite] Later a Lutheran mission also arrived, and the competition between the two certainly contributed to the productivity in Negerhollands literature. But in the middle of the 1800's, Negerhollands begins to yield to English Creole. So the missionaries also shift languages and Negerhollands begins to be regarded as a dying language. The Last Speaker of Negerhollands was Miss Alice Stevens. She was an old lady, she managed to live for 90 years. Her language, Negerhollands, a Lowlands lg of World Cultural Heritage stature, died in the crib. It only managed to live for 250 years. [sound bite]. Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/scotland http://www.tjetjenien.dk/chechnya ---------- From: Elsie Zinsser ezinsser at simpross.co.za Subject: Dutch creoles and Afrikaans Haai almal, Ek het Marcel gevra on Afrikaanse verlies aan labialisering effens toe te lig: >>In Afrikaans rond die sprekers die _uu_ nie, waardeur dit amper klink soos 'n _ie_ (die tong se stand is dalk anders as >>wanneer jy 'n egte _ie_ produseer, maar in die foneemapparaat van 'n Nederlander klink dit maar die einste). So is die >>werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: /styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ Ek dink jy verwar Afrikaanse streekvariasies (Kaaps; Griekwa-Afrikaans) met Standaard Afrikaans. Ander voorbeelde is: soontoe > syntoe muur > mier As jy na Radiosondergrense luister sal die meeste aankondigers, wat standaardsprekers is, wel duidelik labialiseer. >>werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' >>werkwoord, soos in Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. Maar is dit tipies van kreolisering? Het dit nie ook in moderne Engels plaasgevind nie? >>En die middelste /g/ en /x/ kry 'n apokopee (is 'apokopee' regte Afrikaans?): in Ned. 'tegen' is die middelste /x/ nog >>teenwoordig, terwyl hy in Afrikaans verdwyn het. Soms spreek mense in Afrikaans die telwoord _nege_ uit as /ni at g@/, >>pleks van /ni at x@/. Hier lyk dit vir my dat die /g/ >>sal verdwyn in Afrikaans, indien dit nog nie so ver is by party sprekers >>nie. Dalk is die /g/ 'n oorgangsvorm van /x/ na volledige verdwyning. Die apokopee is die verlies in die middel van 'n woord. Ek dink jy verwys na sinkopee. Terwyl sekere vorme wel heelemal verdwyn het (tegen > teen; regen > reën; bogen> boog; ogen > oog + oë (pl) ens.) is die teenoorgestelde waar ten opsigte van telwoorde. Bv: neëntig in plaas van negentig. Die eerste is geaffekteerd en kenmerkend van 'hogere geleerdheid'. >>So het ons in Afrikaans berg (mountain) - berge (mountains) - B� RE (to store), wat almal van die Ned. stam _berg-_ af >>kom, maar uiteindelik al[le] drie verskillende realiserings van die /x/ het: /bErx/ - /bErg@/ - /bEr@/. >>Morgen - môre is vergelykbaar; /g/ raak in die /r/ geassimileer. Maar is dit nie 'n tipies Germaanse verskuiwing eerder as tiperend van kreolisering nie? Jou voorbeeld morgen>môre is ook te sien in Plautdietch morjes. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:50:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:50:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Tom, I never claimed that ALL Americans see it that way - how could I, since my American husband is now living in Germany with me? When my children were little, even when we were living in the States, we'd always set out cookies for The Saint, and an apple and a bucket full of water for the horse - which were all gone in the morning, of course, except for a few crumbs and the stem of the apple. I also made hoofprints with a horseshoe I secretly kept for that purpose. Of course, they got suspicious when they got older. One year, I overheard my five-year-old asking her sister: "Do you think there really is a Nikolaus, or do you think Mama is doing this?" My seven-year-old reflected for a moment and then said: "No, I don't believe it's her. Just think - she could polish off the cookies and the apple all right, but she'd NEVER be able to drink an entire bucket of water!". Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 16:33:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:33:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Richard Smith richard.m.smith at worldnet.att.net Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Hello Candon! Just letting you know you're not the only one raising a horn this season! Richard "Wartooth" Smith ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Folks, I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom of leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for St. Nicolas to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa Claus coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next to each other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together for another year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. We have already discussed the Scandinavian Yule dance (family members dancing and singing through every room is the house) as a pre-Christian remnant, related to _Mummenschanz_ dances of the Alemannic areas where in the Christmas and News Year's season (i.e., general Yuletide) frighteningly dressed and masked dancers clean houses and villages of lingering evil spirits with a lot of noise. Does any of this survive in Lowlands customs? Yes, and is the Druidic "Wild Hunt" (_la Chasse Artu_) and "Furious Host" related to it? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 17:36:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:36:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (09) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (03) [D/E/LS] > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] > > Beste allemaal > Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde taal > in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het zou > minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen dat > het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? > Pieter Meester Hoi Pieter, In het kranten archief van de Neue Osnabruecker heb ik het volgende bericht gevonden: http://www.neue-oz.de/_archiv/noz_print/kreis_emsland/2000/01/pap_platt.html . De aanleiding voor dit bericht is dat plat in Duitsland toen (in 2000) de status van streektaal kreeg, en dat officiele instanties geacht worden om brieven en aanvragen in het plat ook in het plat te beantwoorden. Of dit ook daadwerkelijk gebeurt, kan ik ik helkaas niet zeggen. Wat de situatie in Nederland betreft: De gemeente Rijssen blijkt een maand van de streektaal te hebben (http://www.tctubantia.nl/archief?ArchiefID=960824). Elk jaar in Maart vergadert de gemeenteraad in het plat. Maar volgens een ander bericht eind Maart http://www.tctubantia.nl/archief?ArchiefID=552925 was er wel ophef om, omdat sommige raadsleden vinden dat je over belangrijke dingen niet in het plat kunt praten. Groetjes Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 19:11:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:11:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] Hello John Feather and all, The correct form is "takhaar" and means wild stick-like hair. It denotes a low-class good-for-nothing person. The word originated in the 60's. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ================================= From: john feather Subject: Afrikaans? John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word "taakhaar", which presumably from the context is of South African origin and means something like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has revealed no other source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the exact meaning? John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 19:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.06 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.06 (04) [E] > From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com > Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 > > Candon McLean wrote: > > < Jewish and Islamic holidays, why is it that no attempts are made to > include other world religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, > Native American traditions, Wicca, Asatru, Druidism?>> > > Candon Wheg, > > You mentioned "Wicca". A couple of years ago I bumped into a couple > of > Anglo-Saxon style Pagans and they kept speaking of the "wikka". > Being > heavily involved in Old English studies at the time I told them > that OE > had a palatal double consonant and was most likely > pronounced > something like "witcha" /witSa/. They laughed at me and that really > pissed me off. I then checked my favourite dictionary THE COLLINS > and > found the phonetic transscription /wik@/ for this revived Old > English > word. That pissed me off even more. I don`t know why this gets to > me > like that, I`m not even a believer!!! > > Gans oll ow holon vy, > > Perplexed-at-his-own-reaction Dan Well you were right Dan. In Old English Wicce (fem) Wicca (masc) would have had an palatal affricate, and hence gave Modern English "Witch," which is a big clue to the Old English pronunciation. I'm sorry they laughed at you, but many religions have traditions that are counter to history or science. That modern Witches pronounce their word for their religion "Wicca" as [wik@] should be seen in the light of all literary borrowings from Old English (and a clue to just when the religion of Wicca came into being). So for example, when Kipling used the Old English word _dwerg_ 'dwarf' he would not have pronounced the the final /g/ as a velar affricate (still found in Scots _dwerch_) or (as in later English) as a vowel (dwerrow), he would have pronounced it as [dwerg]. The same goes with other words like _scop_ 'poet,' which according to the OED can be pronounced with a palatal fricative, orthographic or as [sk]. I do understand your annoyance, though. Every time I hear people pronounce "ye olde shoppe" as [ji old Sap], I cringe at the total lack of historical development of their own language. And Shakespeare's miss use and mixing (often in the same sentence) of the various forms of "thou" and "you" I find quite annoying as well. Pob Hwyl, Candon McLean PS: In case you're wondering I'm not a follower of Wicca. I'm Celto-Germanic in outlook, meaning I honor both the Celtic and Germanic Gods. If a lable is needed, I choose to call myself Glasian, from the Celtic word _glas_. C. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 20:14:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:14:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom of > leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for St. Nicolas > to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa Claus > coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian > Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next to each > other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together for another > year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. Is this related to the - at least Swedish - custom not to wear shoes inside the house at all times (not just around Christmas? I am always struck by how I am supposed to take off my shoes entering a Swedish house, and how my Swedish friends take off their shoes upon entering mine. I always ascribed this to a deep-rooted aversion to having the ubiquitous mud brought into the house, but reading Ron's comment maybe there is more to this custom. Gustaaf ---------- From: Wim Subject: "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] >From Wim Verdoold wkv at home.nl Hi, about holidays....the time of the mid winter horns has arrived again in twenthe.... One more holiday to remember...also very old. One more for your list. 'Oi , dag allemoalle, Tis weer tied vör de midwinter 'oorn bloazers. Nog ientie vör op Oen lieste.... Ajuu! Wim. ---------- From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] > From: Richard Smith richard.m.smith at worldnet.att.net > Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] > > Hello Candon! > > Just letting you know you're not the only one raising a horn this > season! Wassail, Richard! And Good Yule! > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > > Folks, > > I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom > of > leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for > St. Nicolas > to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa > Claus > coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian > Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next > to each > other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together > for another > year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. That would be an interesting link. I'm also wondering about traditions of Frau Holle/Holda and Frau Perchta/Berchta both of whom, I have read, have traditions similar to Nicolas associated with them about leaving shoes to be filled by them. Do any traditions of Holda or Perchta survive in Lowlands traditions? I believe the times are similar as well, 6 December or 8 December. > We have already discussed the Scandinavian Yule dance (family > members > dancing and singing through every room is the house) as a > pre-Christian > remnant, related to _Mummenschanz_ dances of the Alemannic areas > where in > the Christmas and News Year's season (i.e., general Yuletide) > frighteningly > dressed and masked dancers clean houses and villages of lingering > evil > spirits with a lot of noise. Does any of this survive in Lowlands > customs? > Yes, and is the Druidic "Wild Hunt" (_la Chasse Artu_) and "Furious > Host" > related to it? Which brings me back to Holda and Perchta both of whom are said to lead the Wild Hunt/Furious Host. Candon McLean ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Candon, In the German Lowlands there are only very vague and watered-down remnants of the Frau Holle ~ Fru Holle ~ Fro Holde feature, mostly related to snow (i.e., winter, the season of the G. _Wilde Jagd_, LS _Wille Jagd_), as in the fairytale recorded by the Grimm brothers: German version of the Grimms' "Frau Holle": http://www.gutenberg2000.de/grimm/maerchen/frauholl.htm English versions of the Gimms' "Frau Holle": http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm024.html As we have also discussed on LL-L sometime ago, this "Frau Holle" character is connected with the elderberry bush, German _Holunder(busch)_ ~ _Holder(busch)_ ~ _Holler(busch)_, which she inhabits and protects, bestowing its berries with powerful, beneficial properties, but at the same time haunting and punishing those that cut and use the wood (which is why in some traditions cut elder branches must be left lying underneath the tree). In songs and writings, the elderberry bush tends to represent protection, a safe haven for those seeking shelter from evil and distress. Waltrud Bruhn (my favorite Lowlands Saxon [Low German] poet who passed away fairly recently) features this very poignantly in the context of her war-time childhood memories in her poem "Sambucus niger - Fleeder du, du Krackholt" (_Gras, Adern, Fragmente - Gedichte/Gedichten_, Hamburg: Quickborn, 1997; please see below, followed by my translation for a planned anthology). Most people in the region nowadays are not aware of this connection between Frau Holle and the elder plant (and between white blossoms and snowflakes), leave alone a connection between Frau Holle and Perchta ~ Bergta ~ Berchta ~ Bertha ~ Hertha ~ Ertha (the second-last one being my mother's name), the ancient leader of the Wild Hunt, the defender against malevolent spirits. Here are some interesting sources: Folklore and Mythology Electronic Texts: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html Ertha, the Germanic Earth Goddess: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/ertha.html Hertha Lake (Island of Rügen): http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hertha.html Regards, Reinhard/Ron === Sambucus niger - Fleeder du, du Krackholt vun Waltrud Bruhn Dat Ellholt is en Krack, woll wahr! Maal bleev keen Fleederbeernbusch ganz dar in de Kinneertiet mit lüttje Söcken, Fahnenrück un backsig sengelt Swiegen, wo all de Tanten Weetfruen Kummer harrn, de Watersupp vun Wittkohl opwaarmt geven, wo schöne Böker hopenwies in’n Keller tweifetzt legen. Dar bleev keen Fleederbeerbusch ganz, behöll sien nieen Telgen un wörr so grötter mit de Jahrn. Oh, nee. Alltieds in Harvst, wenn dar noch nich maal swatt Vagelswarms un Fröstküllns de Bitternis vun all de Heimatlosen starken deen, denn broken Minschen twei, Junge un Ole. Dat Ellholt ok. Rundüm Vandalen. Un wörr en Krack doch wedder stark un stevig, denn reten se em wedder dal, un jammervull slappdüster flapp dat Loff an’t Holt. So sehgn wi, jammervull un plünnenpaltern, ok alle Mannslüüd, de ut Krieg, Gefangenschap nah Huus trüüchstaaken deen. Gefangen, vun Greesen süük, bleev’t in ehr Tarnbruun vun Beleeven. Egaalweg jeedeen lüttjes Lachen klööv, sleet sik möör. Bloots Kinner truen sik noch dat Smüüstern un heegen deep ehr binnert Juuchen, wenn se sik in en hogen Boom versteeken kunn’n, wenn speelen Wulken mit ehr Ogen speelen. De scharpe Drangnis schreev sik jümmer langs ehr Stierns. Veeljahren sneden wi Besinnen bi uns weg, in’n Stückentakt, den sik en Scheer, de Haar snidd, klappt. Wi schoven achter Wulken, achter söven Bargen, den fuurig witten Kalk vun Kummer. Jüst so harrn wi dat Stackelsüüchzen vun den drangsaleerten Fleeder un all de anner Quaal wegdrammt, üm de de bleeken Fruenslüüd ’s nachtens weenen müssen, liesen, liesen, heel alleen. Man nümmer bleev de Ruuch vun doodmööd Minschenhuut vergeten, de Töön vun’t rische Viegelienenspeel verleern sik nich, ok nich de Smack vun Bakalit in’n Feverdroom. Bestännig stuuk dat Bild vun’n Dörchslag, twei un löckrig en Helm, Perlmutternboom dat Ridderkruut in’n Gaarn, sien Smack vun Honnig, dar stuuk de Smack vun Bangnis, wenn över Popp un Poppenkarr deep Fleegers huuljachtern un pielgenau scharp scheten deen. Denn, gau! Deep achter’t Ellholt kropen un in’t Versteek vun’n blöhen Busch en witte Freedensfahn afplückt. Mang sööt un bitter Rüüchels müssen wi an all sien Wunnerbarkeit glööven, dat he de Kuckuck ropen, Süükdom un Nood henwegweeln kunn. Ok düsse Freeden klööv, de Struuk bröök twei. Verfraren reet uns maal en scharpe Bitterruuch vun’n Grund, bi dünne Huut ehr Sweet. Wi fragen dar nix nah un leven so mit hen, bet nu – daar brook een Woord vun allerhand swattdrückte Reegen vör, een Woord sien Sinn verquer sik un boo Biller, wöör Ellholt, Fleederbeernbusch, wo anners een Sireen, de lilla Blööm, maal meent hett. Blööm, de, duff un swaar vun Lillasööt, nienümmer Feeverdöst stillt, ok nich Smacht un Bangen. Hier nu ward heel vun’t Ellhoornholt vertellt. Sambucus niger. Ohmgröön dat Loff un smödigwitt als Melk de Blömkenbuschen sweelt hachpachwild üm’t Holt sien Aten. He wörr dull stuur. Dat Krackholt. Wo slöög’t an all uns Seer un Smarten un reet ehr Döören wiet. So maakt dat heel. === Sambucus niger - elder, you, you wimp wood [Translation: R. F. Hahn, ©2001]: The elder is a wimp. For sure! Some time ago no elderberry bush would stay in one piece, then, in the childhood days with little socks, bunting skirts and burnt-on silence, when all the widowed aunts had grief, would dish out watery soup made from white cabbage, when gorgeous books would lie in basements, torn, in heaps. Then no elderberry bush would stay in one piece, would keep its new branches and would grow taller with the years. Oh, no. Always in autumn, already well before black flocks of birds and frosty chills would intensify the bitterness of all the homeless, people would break to pieces, the young, the old. The elder too. Vandals all around. And when a wimp would grow back strength and daring they’d tear him down again, and pitifully limp and dark would leafs be flopping from the wood. That’s how we’d see, too, all the menfolk, pitiful and dressed in rags, staggering back home from war, imprisonment. Captive, sick with terror—it stayed in the camouflage brown of their experiences. All the while each little laughter would split, wear itself out. Just children would still dare to smile, would hold their cheering deep within when they could hide in a tall tree, when playful clouds toyed with their eyes. The sharp pressure would always write itself across their foreheads. For many years we’d cut away at memories, each piece in time that scissors clack while cutting hair. We’d shove the caustic white lime of sorrow behind some clouds, behind seven mountains. This way we’d push aside the tortured elder’s wimpy sighs and all the other torments that made the pale women cry at night, quietly, quietly, all alone. Yet never would we manage to forget the smell of dead-tired human skin. The sounds of lively fiddle play would never disappear, nor would the taste of Bakelite in feverish dream. Constantly would the image squeeze: the impact, a helmet cracked and riddled, mother-of-pearl delphinium the garden’s knightly plant, its taste of honey; the taste of panic would then squeeze when above doll and doll’s carriage quite low aircraft would come screaming, would shoot with arrow-like precision. Then, quickly! Crawling far behind the elder wood, into the hiding place, picking a white peace flag off the blooming bush. Amid sweet and bitter odors we would have to believe in all its splendor, that it could call the cuckoo, could drive away disease and deprivation. This peace would also split; the bush would break. Once a sharply bitter smell yanked us, frozen, up from the ground by thin skin’s sweat. We took it in our stride and lived with it, so far ... A word broke free from several printed black lines, a word’s meaning went awry and started building images, turned into elder wood, elderberry bush, where someone else would have meant lilac, the purple flowers.* Flowers that, dull and heavy with purple sweetness, will never satisfy feverish thirst, nor hunger and anxiety. Here now there’s talk of elder wood. Sambucus niger. Uncle-green its leafs and smoothly white as milk its flowery tufts, its breath glows wildly panting around the wood. It went all stiff. The wimp wood. How it struck at our wounds and aches and pushed their doors wide open! That’s how it heals. *[Lowlands Saxon _Fleder_ and North German _Flieder_ are used to refer both to elderbushes and lilac bushes.] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 22:54:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:54:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Ron Has anyone continued the work of the brothers Grimm? I don't mean their "serious" philology work but their work collecting folklore. The countryside that I grew up in, of northern Westphalia, was certainly gloomy enough. I remember walking for kilometers, mostly along dirt roads, to get to school. The land was boggy and flat as a tabletop. Dense fogs would arise and at times all I could see was my feet and the eerie carven horseheads seemingly staring at me down from the tops of the houses. It was in one of those houses that one of my playmates lived. When the nights started early and the wind caused the ancient timbers to creak, we would become scared and play near his grandmother, who seemed allways to be at her spinning wheel. We would then ask her to tell us stories. She allways obliged. I should mention that his family was one of those where only Plattdeutsch was spoken. I have never before or since been transported by the spoken word as by this old woman. Some of the stories were like those I since encountered in the collections of the brothers Grimm. Others though were unlike any I have heard before or since. I remember my favorites being stories about the dwarves and the tricks played by Loki. I don't know if they were traditional stories or if they were made up by her. Sadly, I don't even remember her name. This woman though would be counted as a national treasure by any sane nation. Is anyone ut there trying to find and save the stories of such wonderful people? Tom Byro ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Tom, I really don't know if any such data gathering is still being done these days. Perhaps others on the List know. I doubt that this sort of work is still being done in Europe. I would be pleasantly surprised to hear that it is. Most people assume (perhaps not justifiably so) that human resources such as the ones the Grimm brothers and you have encountered are no longer around, that this sort of gathering ended with the end of the 19th century. Instead, people reinterprete the same old material over and over. These days, folkloristic data gathering is generally expected to be more fruitful outside Europe, such as among Native American, Australian Aborigines and the various peoples of Papua-New Guinea, in places where stories had been transmitted only in spoken form until recently and where languages are expected to go extinct and stories happen to be recorded in the process of recording linguistic corporae. I know that even in the 20th century considerable folkloristic collection work has been performed and published in *some* parts of Europe, especially in Hungary and other parts of Central and Eastern Europe. However, I do not know if anything substantial is being done in the Lowlands. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 00:32:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:32:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: Help Wanted re Lowland Scots In the Edinburgh area a person always ready for a joke or some fun is known as 'Right galluss (or galliss) '. Can anyone clarify the origin of this word which I can only associate with the far from funny gallows ? Is it of Scandinavian or Flemish origin ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 06:33:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:33:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up in Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see the word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Here we use the word "barrie" with the a similar meaning of Great / fantastic. Though in Glasgow Gallus can have the meaning of someone being slightly cheeky or reckless. Looking in the Scots Concise dictionary - they state that "gall(o)us" is chiefly WC dialect ( that is West Central dialect -the area around Glasgow ) and is first attested in the late 18th Centaury. According to the Collins Scots dictionary gallus "was originally derogatory and meant wild, rascally and deserving to be hanged from the gallows" - and indeed the Concise Scots dictionary has the origin of the word from Gallows too. So gallus finds it origin in the Scots equivalent of the English word Gallows - which according to the Oxford English dictionary is from the Old English galga / gealga relating to the Dutch galg and reinforced in middle English by Old Norse galgi. Remembering that Scots is descended of a different dialect of Old English from English- it could have been from that source -or from English: Since "gall(o)us" as an independent word is first attested in the late 18th centaury - it may have come from English gallows. But "Gallows, gallowis" - are attested from the 15th - 17th Centaury - it may have come from Scots itself ~ and Gall(o)us - in the meaning of Gallows from the 15th - 20th Centaury ( note here - NOT in the use of meaning fantastic / reckless or cheeky - as later use which as stated above only was first attested from the 18th Centaury but in the meaning of Gallows). So it seems - that its origin is in old English - but whether it came from the dialect that became Scots or the dialect that became English and because it's late date as first being noted as being used with this meaning ( i.e post Union and with the heavy pressure of English to dominate )- is a mute point - it is one of these words where there is so much similarity between them - that it is maybe difficult to ascertain which is its origin. So it seems to be a derivative from the word "Gallows" - which is found both in Scots and English and has it's origin in Old English - but whether it was first derived its meaning of reckless/ cheeky from the Scots or English word for Gallows - I think would be hard to ascertain. Hope this make some sense!!! The Edinburgh word "barrie" is from the Romany -we have a number of word in Edinburgh of Romany origin. Chris Ferguson ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] Theo, I should add something to the etymology of the Dutch word _pink_: another source, Jan de Vries's Etymologisch Woordenboek van de Nederlandse Taal, says that the word might be deriving from the word _pin_, because of its narrow, small shape. In Old English _pinca_ means 'point', which also derives from _pin_. The etymology is uncertain, but I happen to like my own hypothesis, of the word being preserved by children's language :p Regards, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Marcel, Theo, Lowlanders, Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating from Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish immigrants. In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can denote anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. Dutch _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting 'to fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' I am wondering if Dutch and Scots just happen to have preserved the above or if it has something to do with Dutch-Scots contacts, such as medieval "Flemish" emigration to Scotland. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 09:46:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:46:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.07 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Gustaaf Ook in Tsjechie is schoenen uitdoen als je ergens binnenkomt usance. Na daar drie jaar gewoond te hebben namen mijn vrouw en ik die gewoonte mee terug naar NL. De Tsjechen, althans, verklaren de gewoonte inderdaad heel prozaisch, buiten is vuil, of modder in de rurale gebieden, en dat neem je niet aan je zolen mee naar binnen. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 09:51:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:51:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology I wrote: > Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky > (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating from > Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish immigrants. > > In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can denote > anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. Dutch > _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting 'to > fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to > strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' Please also consider Afrikaans _pinkie_ (equivalent of Dutch _pinkje_, i.e., a diminutive derivation of _pink_) ‘small finger’ I further wonder if this etymological group is based on onomatopoetic *_pink_ for the sound of something small dropping (much like English “ping”), thus the shift *“small sound” > *“small” > “small thing” + “doing something small”. Please also consider Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _pinkeln_ ‘to urinate’, assumedly an iterative derivation of *_pinken_ (cf. Dutch _pinken_ and Scots _tae pink_), i.e., /pink-l-/ *“to produce a series of something small” > “to produce a series of sounds of drops falling” (cf. also Danish _pinke_ and Swedish _pinka_ ‘to urinate’, according to the _Herkunftsduden_). _Pinkeln_ has also been borrowed into (“High”) German (because it would begin with _pf..._ if it had undergone the German shift), though the _Herkunftsduden_ makes no mention of this borrowing and attributes _pinkeln_ to children’s language _pi(e)-_ and its derivations (cf. English ‘to pee’), which I take with a massive grain of salt. Please consider as a parallel case English onomatopoetic “ping” describing something small (especially something metallic, such as a ring or a coin) producing a sound upon impact when falling or when being struck (such as a small bell). Though I cannot attest to the existence of a simple verbal derivative *_pingen_ (*/piN-/ *“to make the sound ‘ping’ once”), I know that Lowlands Saxon has the iterative derivation _pingeln_ (/piN-l-/ “to make the sound ‘ping’ several times” =) ‘to ring’ (also _anpingeln_ “to ring on” = ‘to ring a doorbell’) and the nominal form _Pingel_ ‘(small) bell’, ‘doorbell’ (as opposed to _beiern_ ‘to ring’ in reference to a large bell, _Klock_, _beiern_ also denoting ‘to swing’, such as the motion of a pendulum). In this connection please also consider Dutch _pingelen_ ‘to haggle’ and _pingelaar_ ‘haggler’, perhaps originally referring to an itinerant salesperson that announced his or her arrival by ringing a bell. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:21:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:21:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.08 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (10) [E] > From: elsie zinsser > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] > Hello John Feather and all, > The correct form is "takhaar" and means wild stick-like hair. > Groete, > Elsie Zinsser Hello, In Flemish "takhaar" is "streuvelhaar" [str2:vlO:r] Groetjes Luc vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:23:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:23:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.08 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.05 (06) [E/S] At 19:35 05/12/02, Gary Taylor wrote: >I'm currently doing my duty and working my way through >Colin's Scots language learner, and at the same time >teaching myself Welsh - mainly cos I don't want to be >an ignorant Brit that doesn't know any of the other >languages from his country of origin. > >One thing that I've noticed through learning them >side-by-side is the use of the 3rd person singular >with plurals when the plurals aren't a pronoun. > >I'm presuming that this is similar in Scots Gaelic - >also being Celtic. > >My question is, is this an influence of Gaelic on >Scots, or is this feature an inheritance from the Old >Northumbrian dialect from which it descended? Also, >are there other such grammatical influences from >Celtic in Scots? First of all, it goes without saying that I'm glad another contributor to the list has found my book of interest! To try to answer the question: it's actually impossible to make a direct comparison (in this respect) of Scots with modern Scottish Gaelic. With the exception of the verb "to be" the latter language has lost its simple present tense, so we can't compare it with the present tense in Scots. However, if the feature of Scots mentioned above is due to influence from Gaelic, one might expect to see something similar in modern Irish Gaelic, which is more conservative in this respect and does still have a simple present tense. To my knowledge, even in Irish Gaelic, there is no distinction of the kind that exists in Scots; and the same verbal conjugation is used in the 3rd person present tense irrespective of whether the subject is a pronoun or another noun. As for other grammatical influences, I think the most obvious possibility is the compound present tense (for example, "I am going" instead of "I go"), which is used in English as well as Scots. To my knowledge, this tense exists in all of the Celtic languages; but the only Germanic languages in which it exists are Scots and English, suggesting that this structure is a Celtic loan. ********************************************************************* Colin Wilson the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin the barra wadna row its lane writin fae Aiberdein, an sicna soss it nivver wis seen the ile capital o Europe lik the muckin o Geordie's byre ********************************************************************* ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:55:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:55:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] > From: Marcel Bas > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] > > Theo, > > I should add something to the etymology of the Dutch word _pink_: > another source, Jan de Vries's Etymologisch Woordenboek van de > Nederlandse > Taal, says that the word might be deriving from the word _pin_, > because of > its narrow, small shape. > In Old English _pinca_ means 'point', which also derives from _pin_. > The > etymology is uncertain, but I happen to like my own hypothesis, of the > word > being preserved by children's language :p > > Regards, Marcel. > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Marcel, Theo, Lowlanders, > > Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky > (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating > from > Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish > immigrants. > > In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can > denote > anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. > Dutch > _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting > 'to > fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to > strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' > > I am wondering if Dutch and Scots just happen to have preserved the > above or > if it has something to do with Dutch-Scots contacts, such as medieval > "Flemish" emigration to Scotland. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Marcel and Ron, This is what i found in my Flemish dict. : De Bo (1892) -Pinkel (wvl pijnkel)m. - Hetzelfde of pink, kleenste vinger. De pinkel kwetsen. -Wimper, vlegger, pinkhaar -Houten tapje of spietje dat men door het uiteinde van eene schee steekt om te beletten dat er een ander stuk van afwijke, juist gelijk men eene luns in den as steekt om er het wiel op te houden, of gelijk men een scheers steekt door eenen drilbout. Het is bij middel van pinkels in de uiteinden van de schee'n eener wiek, dat de mulders het buitenzoom op die schee'n gevestigd houden. -Pingel, ook pinkel (wvl pijngel, pijnkel)m. - Dunne reep, lijn, lange sterke koorde van eenen vinger dik. Met pingels haalt men ijzeren staven naar omhoog b.v. op een dak. Pingels om het zeil van eenen windmolen open te houden. ... -pingeling, pinkeling, m. en o. Zoo heet elke streng of pees van eene koord. -pinkelen (wvl pijnkelen) Frequent. van pinken, dit is -flikkeren, glinsteren, tintelen. De sterren pinkelen. De ijsel aan de bomen pinkelt als er de zon op schingt. -vonkelen,perelen, mierlen, sprekende van dranken. De champagne-wijn pinkelt in de glazen. Oud bier dat pinkelt. -prikkelen, tintelen, iets smertelijks gevoelen als van duizende naaldesteken. Mijn vingers pinkeleden van de koude. We know als a little poem about fingers: Ik ga slapen - zei Duimerloot (=duim) Ik heb nog niet geëten - zei Lekkerpoot (=wijsvinger) Waar gaan we't krijgen - zei Langerakel (=langerebbe, = middelvinger) In moërtjes schapra - zei Kortekrakel (= Kieremachuit, = ringvinger) 'k Ga't klappen - zei Kleenkernuit (= pink) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Etymology" > From: ntl > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] > > "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up in > Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see the > word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Here we use the word "barrie" with While "gallus" (/'ga:l at s/, written "gallows" in traditional texts) has been borrowed from Scots into Glasgow English and is used copiously in Glasgow, but it's common in the Scots of other areas. At our school in East Lothian (well to the east of Edinburgh) "gallus" was one of those "pantomime words" which became the cause of endless, pointless argument: "I'm gallus, you'r no." "Ye ar nut gallus, son, I'm gallus!" "I'm gallus!" "Ye ar nur!" "I am sut! &c &c &c It was also the subject of furtuve discussion about the new boy or anyone else whose status in the pecking order was in doubt, to determine whether they were "gallus" enough to be seen with. "Gallus" meaning "rough, cheerful, OK, part of the 'in' crowd" is really the same word as "gallus" (gallows, meaning the thing people are hanged on, also pronounced /'ga:l at s/ in Scots) through a few semantic processes. Originally "gallus" started to be used as an adjective to mean anyone who might end up on the gallows, as in Burns's "The Author's Earnest Cry an Prayer": Is there, that bears the name o Scot, But feels his hert's bluid risin hot, To see his puir auld mither's pot Thus dung in staves, An plunder'd o her hindmaist groat By gallows knaves? There's a natural process of semantic weakening which takes place when one generation gets a habit of exaggerating a word, with the result that the next generation understands it as meaning something weaker (for example, "soon" in English used to mean "immediately", but with people saying "I'll do it soon" and not doing it for a while, later generations understood it to mean "in a little while"). It would seem that some generation of Scots started using "gallus" for people they only mildly disapproved of, so the word came to mean "cool!" to children who approved of people their parents didn't like. Again from the word "gallows", "gallus" was generalised to mean various kinds of supporting brace (also the verb "gallussed" meaning supported using such a brace). The most common use of this today is as "galluses" /'ga:l at sIz/ - braces for holding up trousers - but in the past it was also used for such things as shoulder-straps for carrying fish-baskets and the wooden yoke for carrying pails of milk or water - a milkmaid's yoke was referred to as "galluses". As an aside, another "pantomime word" used copiously at our school was "hacket", meaning "not good-looking enough to go out with", eg: "How div ye no tak Brenda tae the picturs?" "Na, she's hacket!" Usually this meant the responder is desperately in love with the boy/girl in question but determined to deny it (and if you're reading this, Fiona, I didn't mean it! :\ Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Tom Mc Rae Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, ntl wrote > "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up > in > Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see > the > word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Like you I am born and bred in Edinburgh and can assure you the term was in use among Working Class folks as late as the early 1970's when I left for Australia. I recall it being used in the Prestonfield and Canongate areas when I was a kid in the 1940's. I will concede it is probably a Glescae term that was adopted just like the ubiquitous 'Ginger' for any sort of fizzy drink, luckily this latter never quite caught on. 'Heh Jimmy, gies a boattle o' ginjuh'. 'OK whoat kind dae Ye wa't ?' Regards Tom Mc Rae (Boarn Buccleuch street. Breed Prestonfield. Steyed The Inch an Shandon efter that) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology I wrote about Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _pingeln_: > Please consider as a parallel case English onomatopoetic “ping” describing > something small (especially something metallic, such as a ring or a coin) > producing a sound upon impact when falling or when being struck (such as a > small bell). Though I cannot attest to the existence of a simple verbal > derivative *_pingen_ (*/piN-/ *“to make the sound ‘ping’ once”), I know that > Lowlands Saxon has the iterative derivation _pingeln_ (/piN-l-/ “to make the > sound ‘ping’ several times” =) ‘to ring’ (also _anpingeln_ “to ring on” = > ‘to ring a doorbell’) and the nominal form _Pingel_ ‘(small) bell’, > ‘doorbell’ (as opposed to _beiern_ ‘to ring’ in reference to a large bell, > _Klock_, _beiern_ also denoting ‘to swing’, such as the motion of a > pendulum). In this connection please also consider Dutch _pingelen_ ‘to > haggle’ and _pingelaar_ ‘haggler’, perhaps originally referring to an > itinerant salesperson that announced his or her arrival by ringing a bell. I suppose that if 'to haggle' and 'haggler' are correct (as found in Dutch dictionaries), the meaning must be derived from 'to peddle' ~ 'to hawk' and 'peddlar' ~ 'hawker' respectively (if these are not the meanings nowadays as well), because it would be a peddlar or hawker who would engage in both "haggling" and _pingelen_ ("ringing a small bell"). Luc (above): > -Pinkel (wvl pijnkel)m. - Hetzelfde of pink, kleenste vinger. De pinkel > kwetsen. Incidentally, this reminds me of Lowlands Saxon _Pinkel_, a type of sausage. Is there any connection, and, if not, what might be the etymology? _Pinkel_ is eaten in various parts of Lower Saxony (i.e., the German *state* of Lower Saxony), mostly in the western parts (Bremen, Oldenburg and Eastern Friesland), also in the Lunenburg region, usually accompanied by kale (_Gröönkohl_, German _Grünkohl_, Dutch _boerenkool_). In some localities it is "simply" what elsewhere is called _Kohlwost_ ~ _Kohlwoss_ (German _Kohlwurst_ "cabbage sausage," where "cabbage" includes kale and some other winter-time cruciferous greens), a thin, firm sausage stuffed mostly with bacon and/or salt pork and then smoked, to be simmered in kale or other types of winter greens. "Typical" _Pinkel_, however, is a small ("small-finger-like"?) type of sausage stuffed with various types of meat (including offal), fat and groats (in intestinal casing) -- a tiny brother of the good, old Scottish haggis perhaps, both as far as the stuffing is concerned and in that it has a reputation for being an "acquired taste" among non-locals. _Pinkel_ with kale is *the* Christmas time fare in the western parts of Lower Saxony. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:57:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:57:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.08 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language attitudes Pieter schreef: > Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde > taal > in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het > zou > minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen > dat > het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? Hallo Pieter, Ja dat klopt, het Nedersaksisch als verzamelnaam voor de streektalen van Groningen, Drenthe, Stellingwerf, Overijssel en de Achterhoek zijn (ik meen in 1996) officieel erkend als streektaal volgens een Europees Handvest, dwz niet zijnde een dialect van het Nederlands. Ook het Limburgs en het Fries hebben die erkenning. Voor het Fries gaat die erkenning echter verder (en is die erkenning ook wat ouder - de erkenning van het Fries is nog van vóór het Europese Handvest). Er zijn namelijk twee niveaus van erkenning: Nedersaksisch en Limburgs worden 'gewoon' erkend als niet zijnde een Nederlands dialect, voor het Fries zijn regels voor gebruik opgesteld. Overigens is het handvest zo vaag, dat dit verschil in erkenning er eigenlijk nauwelijks toe doet, als bijvoorbeeld de Limburgse overheid óók zulke regels met de Nederlandse overheid zou willen vaststellen, zouden daar geen belemmeringen voor zijn. Het klopt inderdaad dat het gebruik in de rechtszaal één van de regels is die de provincie Friesland met de Nederlandse overheid heeft geregeld. Een ander is bijvoorbeeld dat het als (bij)vak op school gegeven mag/moet worden gegeven. Kortom: die erkenningen betekenen vooral dat de betreffende streektalen géén dialect van het Nederlands zijn, de directe steun moet echter echt van de betreffende provincies komen. In zo'n geval wordt er volgens mij geen strobreed in de weg gelegd, de oorspronkelijke erkenning is namelijk toch al 'afgegeven' en kan niet meer worden ingetrokken. Maw: als bijvoorbeeld de provincie Groningen ineens de geest krijgt, en projecten zoals 'Gronings als schoolvak' of 'Groningse plaatsnaamborden' start, dan zijn daar geen belemmeringen voor. Meer hierover kun je lezen op http://streektaal.cjb.net groeten, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 07:05:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:05:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.08 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Deaf culture" I thought I'd bring a reminder of another stratum of language culture in the Lowlands that's rarely mentioned on Lowlands-L but does elicit some discussion when it is - that is to say, Deaf Culture and Sign Languages. Gestures ======== An aspect of oral languages (I use "oral" rather than "spoken" in this context because sign languages are also spoken of as being "spoken") is that as well as the mouth being used to produce sound, the hands are used to a much lesser extent to produce gestures. Students of oral languages often fail to notice these gestures, resulting in an impairment of communication. Similarly, a feature of sign languages often missed by students are "multi-channel signs" - signs in which the mouth is used as well as the hands. Sometimes a multi-channel sign involves using the whole face to add expression to the sign the hands are making. In BSL (British Sign Language) for example, if you make the thumbs-up sign with both hands then bring them down to horizontal, this means "finished at last!" In this case, the facial expression can be used to show the amount of relief, exasperation or triumph associated with having accomplished the object. However, a similar sign can be made, moving the thumbs from the mouth slightly towards a person (whether present or implied) - in this case the teeth bite the lower lip as if saying "fffffff!", which makes it clear that you mean "she's the apple of my eye". Dialects ======== I learned to sign in South Wales, and have picked up most of my BSL from people in Bridgend and Newport. Since I moved 100 miles to Somerset, I've had to attend classes at the local college to learn the South-West England dialect of BSL. International Communication =========================== I was signing with a group of Deaf people, some of whom were English, some French, and some Portuguese (and of course, one Scottish!). All the British people were agreed that, when signing naturally, the French were almost impossible to understand, and that the Portuguese were actually impossible to understand. Suddenly, we were taken aback to see a Portuguese man making a sign involving shaking his index and middle fingers, held downwards, at the top of his ear. Using a more international (graphic) form of sign language, we asked asked him if that meant "cherry". He said that it did, and we told him that in BSL we use the same sign, but make it at the side of the jaw. Then the French person told us that she used the same sign, but at the bottom of the ear. On a course in (oral) French for the Deaf in Liège, Mary was the only Hearing person amongst us. In the small hours of one morning there was an earthquake in Maastricht, and only Mary woke up. Next morning I was walking to classes with a Savoyarde, who signed to me, "Damn! I wish I had been woken by the earthquake. If I hadn't been deaf it would have woken me up and I'd have heard it." I understood her perfectly even although we didn't have any signed language in common. Later, I was speaking to one of the locals, a man of about 70 who was also deaf, and I and I asked him if the earthquake had woken him. He said, "No, but it woke my wife, she felt the vibrations." Again, we had no language in common - or presumably he spoke French but we didn't use it. This is possible partly because there was a context, and partly because they were able to select the most graphic signs possible. Another striking use of graphic signing occured when a deaf Swedish woman on British television was describing her experiences with books. After some time depending on subtitles I suddenly saw her, probably aware of her British audience, signing very graphically, "I love books because I can plunge into them and swim away into their depths". This isn't _always_ easy, and can depend very much on experience. Still in Liège, I was talking to a Flemish woman and asked her where she had been on holiday. She signed by touching the tips of her forefingers together and bringing them downwards and apart. I didn't understand and turned to an English woman who was more used to international communication, to ask her what the Flemish woman meant. She signed "Oh, it's obvious, try again." The Flemish woman made the sign again and again, but I still couldn't get it. Finally the English woman made the sign of a snake on her head - BSL for "Egypt" - and I said, "Oh, it's obvious!" Speaking Loudly (and Softly) ============================ When I arrived in Liège for that course, some of the "old hands" at the café where we met were telling me that the year before there had been a power cut and the waiters had brought candles so that people could see. However, the light was soft, so the signs soon got to be very large, so that they could see clearly what was being said. I was speaking to a deaf woman about a common acquaintance recently, and suddenly she lowered her hands and started signing with small movements so that only I could see them, to say, "Peter's slow, isn't he?" (name changed to protect the innocent!). Attracting Attention ==================== In a crowded room, you can always attract a hearing person's attention by shouting and waving (though at some risk of causing annoyance at politer gatherings). An inexperienced hearing person at a predominantly Deaf gathering is often completely stumped by the problem of how to attract a deaf person's attention in the same situation, often waving and shouting like a mad thing until some nearby signer takes pity on them and shows them how it's done - he waves to catch the eye of anyone standing near the person to be contacted, then signs to ask them to tap the person on the shoulder. Other methods of catching attention, appropriate in different situations, are banging on the table so that another person at the table feels the vibrations, stamping on the floor, similarly, and flicking the light switch off and on (none of these are advisable until you've seen the protocol in action for yourself). Walking ======= When two signers walk down the street, they have to look at each other continually to follow the conversation. This results in a situation where neither person can see what's in front of him, but they can see what's in front of each other. So each person continually reaches out to the other to prevent them from bumping into people, traffic signs and wall corners. Swimming ======== Some deaf people will don goggles at the swimming pool and have a conversation underwater, just because they can! Eating Out ========== A hearing person might say on entering a restaurant, "Table for six, please." A deaf person (after making sure the restaurant has good lighting) might say, "Round table for six, please." Making Love =========== In work some time ago the (Hearing) chaps were discussing their favourite subject, and whether it was "kinky" to leave the light on. I said, "I always have the light on, always." After some seconds of puzzled silence, they started cheering. Urban Legends and Tall Stories (1) ================================== A Deaf honeymoon couple arrive at their hotel very late. It's one of those small hotels where if you go down in the middle of the night there's no-one at reception to help you. The bride insists on champagne, but by the time the groom gets downstairs, the receptionist has gone to bed, so he goes out and finds an off-licence. On returning, the whole hotel is in darkness, and he realises that he can't remember the room number. So he gets into his car and blares on the horn until all the windows in the hotel light up - except one! Urban Legends and Tall Stories (2) ================================== The sign for the English word "but" in some sign languages is to raise an index finger from horizontal pointing leftwards, to vertical. In BSL at least, this is the sign for the English word "but", it's not often used in BSL itself. One day a deaf man is driving and is stopped at a railway crossing. He waits, but no train comes. Finally he goes to the signal box and sees a guard asleep. He goes in and wakes the man, then finds a piece of paper and pencil and writes, "PLEASE BUT". Urban Legends and Tall Stories (3) ================================== A lumberjack was happily working his way through a forest with an axe. Each tree he came to he would chop at it for some time with his axe, then yell, "Timber!" and the tree would fall. Eventually he came to a tree which he chopped at for some time, then yelled "Timber!" but it didn't fall. So he chopped some more and yelled "Timber!" again, but still it didn't fall. So he chopped more, and yelled more, and chopped more, and yelled more, but still it didn't fall. So he sent for a tree surgeon. The tree surgeon examined the tree and concluded that it was deaf. So the lumberjack went back to his cabin and spent five minutes learning the manual alphabet. Then he went back to the tree and fingerspelled "t-i-m-b-e-r", and the tree fell over. In Space, No-one can know you're Deaf (Take 1) ============================================== Probably the only complaint you'll hear from Deaf people about being deaf is that it's invisible. Here's how a well-known pocket-book on Deaf Culture describes the experience of a deaf person at an airport: "At the airport, everyone is waiting for the boarding call. Finally, they announce that people in rows 25 to 36 can board the plane. Your seat is row 7. The man at the boarding gate wonders what kind of trick you are trying to pull when you attempt to go with the first group." Of course, you might see what the problem here is, so here's what happens when I'm taking a flight: In Space, No-one can know you're Deaf (Take 2) ============================================== At the check-in, I tell the person there I'm deaf. He calls a stewardess who asks me what I need. I tell her I just need to be collected at the boarding gate. So about an hour later everyone's waiting for the boarding call. When the doors open, a stewardess comes and says, "Mr Fleming, we're boarding now," and escorts me to the plane. Once I'm seated, everyone else may board! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 11:41:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:41:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.08 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:28 -0800 > Groete aan alle laelanders > > John Feather wrote in > John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word > "taakhaar", which > presumably from the context is of South African origin > and means something > like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has > revealed no other > source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the > exact meaning? > > The word should be "takhaar" which literally means "twig or branch hair" as the individual concerned can't even comb his hair. The meaning you give is good. There is another word describing a similar type of person -"gomtor" syrup beetle - These folks make a rather unattractive couple:) John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 11:59:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:59:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: Surnames Groete aan alle Laelanders, In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons Korrespondente Banke te vergader. Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen weëns die feit dat daar paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook teëgekom (onder andere Hoenderdoos). Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem sou word. John le Grange ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Haai, Kobus/John! En "welcome back!" 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) afgekom het. Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 12:24:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 04:24:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.08 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Sandy, Thanks for sharing you very interesting and informative introduction to deaf culture. This got me thinking ... (Uh-oh!) It's not as though we don't have plenty of projects already, but I would like you and others on the List to consider the possibility of presenting a brief introduction to Lowlands-specific sign language features, namely what the sign languages of the Lowlands share and what is different between them, if a certain language also has a signing equivalent, etc. One could even give a few comparative examples with illustrations! Of course, this would require collaboration. Much of the material can probably be found on the Web. I could and would help with American sign equivalents at the very least, unless someone more knowledgeable volunteered. Oh, and I should mention that this would be a part of our evolving series "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net), on which some of us are working busily and could do with some help. (Hint, hint!) À propos "sign language" ... This leads me to ask if there are signing equivalents for the languages that are "lower-ranking" (minority/regional) or officially not recognized. What about Scots? Is there a general Scottish (common English/Scots) sign language or two separate ones? I don't think there is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) one, or that, if one did exist, it is now lost, pushed out of the way by the Dutch and German sign languages. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 15:25:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:25:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (09) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Haai, Kobus/John en almal! Ek het geskryf: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= die boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Verkoon my! "Haardoring" is natuurlik 'n tikfout. Dit sou "haagdoring" wees (Engels _howthorn_, Nederlands _haagdoorn_, Nedersaksies _Hagedoorn_ ~ _Haagdoorn_ en Duits _Hagedorn_). In Afrikaans en Nederlands is die wortelwoord _haag_ (Engels _hedge(row)_), in Nedersaksies ook _Haag_ [hQ:x] of _Hagen_ ['hQ:gN=] ~ ['hQ:GN=] (_hedge(row)_, _grove_ of 'hok'/_enclosure for smaller animals_), en in ("Hoog"-)Duits is dit ouderwets _Hag_ (òf _bos_ òf _haag_). Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 15:27:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:27:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.08 (11) [N] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Selma Schepel Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.07 (02) [D] Geen folkore, gewoon verstandige zindelijkheid. Ik woon al 53 jaar in Nederland, en trek altijd mijn schoenen uit op de drempel. Inderdaad geleerd van mijn buitenlandse (Finse) moeder. Het is gewoon vies om met zolen die buiten van alles en nog wat aangeraakt hebben, je eigen mooie fijne hol te bevuilen. Daar hoef je geen folk-theorietjes voor te construeren. Ik begrijp mensen die hun schoenen thuis aanhouden überhaupt niet, dat zijn voor mij viezeriken, groetjes, Selma Schepel, Amsterdam. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:30:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:30:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Ron schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Met mijn naam is het net hetzelfde; oorspronkelijk was de naam wel "Gagen" (tegen - against), omdat mijn voorouders volgens mijn vader blijkbaar zo'n beetje oproerig zijn geweest. Met een "Kahn" - een aak of roeibootje dus - heeft het eigenlijk helemaal niets te maken. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Dags Jacobus, Jy het gewonder hoekom daar in Nederland sulke growwe vanne soos 'Fokker' bestaan. Wel, die werkwoord _fokken_ beteken niks anders as _teel_ nie. Ons het in Nederland paardenfokkers, hondenfokkers en daar is fokmerries, maar daarenteen ook dekhengsten. Die van 'Hoenderdoos' begryp ek nie. Miskien was dit 'n skryffout gewees en was die oorspronklike van 'Hoenderloos' ('van Hoenderloo'; 'n dorp in die Veluwe-gebied). Tog kan dit gebeur dat sekere vanne aangeneem is om die gek mee te skeer. Daar is vanne soos 'Poepjes' en 'Naaktgeboren'. Waarskynlik het die Nederlanders tydens die Napoleontiese oorheersing nie eintlik geglo in die nuttigheid en duursaamheid van die deur die Franse gedwonge vervanging van patronieme in familiename nie. Hulle wou dus die gek skeer met die nuwe gesag deur sulke vreemde vanne te gee, maar hulle kon nie bevroed dat dit gevolge vir die toekomstige generasies sou h nie. 'n Ander van is 'Zondervan' of 'Sondervan', wat feitlik 'sonder van' beteken. Die Ned. woord _van_ is deesdae vervang deur _achternaam_, dus daaris nouliks iemand wat weet wat hierdie van beteken. Party mense dink selfs dat die Afrikaanse woord _van_ 'n vondstige neologisme is, wat as 't ware genspireer is op die eerste deel van baie vanne (VAN der Merwe, VAN Jaarsveld, VAN Vollenhoven, VAN Rensburg). Groetnis, Marcel. >From: Jacobus Le Grange >Subject: Surnames > >Groete aan alle Laelanders, > >In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n >aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons >Korrespondente Banke te vergader. > >Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid >Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen we ns die feit dat daar >paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. > >Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier >teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is >natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook teëgekom >(onder andere Hoenderdoos). >Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem >sou word. > >John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:31:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:31:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Ron schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Met mijn naam is het net hetzelfde; oorspronkelijk was de naam wel "Gagen" (tegen - against), omdat mijn voorouders volgens mijn vader blijkbaar zo'n beetje oproerig zijn geweest. Met een "Kahn" -- een aak of roeibootje dus - heeft het eigenlijk helemaal niets te maken. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Dags Jacobus, Jy het gewonder hoekom daar in Nederland sulke growwe vanne soos 'Fokker' bestaan. Wel, die werkwoord _fokken_ beteken niks anders as _teel_ nie. Ons het in Nederland paardenfokkers, hondenfokkers en daar is fokmerries, maar daarenteen ook dekhengsten. Die van 'Hoenderdoos' begryp ek nie. Miskien was dit 'n skryffout gewees en was die oorspronklike van 'Hoenderloos' ('van Hoenderloo'; 'n dorp in die Veluwe-gebied). Tog kan dit gebeur dat sekere vanne aangeneem is om die gek mee te skeer. Daar is vanne soos 'Poepjes' en 'Naaktgeboren'. Waarskynlik het die Nederlanders tydens die Napoleontiese oorheersing nie eintlik geglo in die nuttigheid en duursaamheid van die deur die Franse gedwonge vervanging van patronieme in familiename nie. Hulle wou dus die gek skeer met die nuwe gesag deur sulke vreemde vanne te gee, maar hulle kon nie bevroed dat dit gevolge vir die toekomstige generasies sou h nie. 'n Ander van is 'Zondervan' of 'Sondervan', wat feitlik 'sonder van' beteken. Die Ned. woord _van_ is deesdae vervang deur _achternaam_, dus daaris nouliks iemand wat weet wat hierdie van beteken. Party mense dink selfs dat die Afrikaanse woord _van_ 'n vondstige neologisme is, wat as 't ware genspireer is op die eerste deel van baie vanne (VAN der Merwe, VAN Jaarsveld, VAN Vollenhoven, VAN Rensburg). Groetnis, Marcel. >From: Jacobus Le Grange >Subject: Surnames > >Groete aan alle Laelanders, > >In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n >aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons >Korrespondente Banke te vergader. > >Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid >Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen we ns die feit dat daar >paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. > >Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier >teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is >natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook teëgekom >(onder andere Hoenderdoos). >Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem >sou word. > >John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:34:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:34:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.09 (02) [A/D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.06 (06) [A/E] Hi everybody, Thank you so much Ole for all the information that you have given me about Negerhollands and the story of the former Danish Virgin Islands colony. I will save your information and process it in the all-comprising web page about Dutch Creoles. The fact that Hein van der Voort speaks Danish has proven to be quite useful, because several unclear words that could be mistaken for Dutch or creolised words could in his book Die Creol Taal be ascribed to Danish derivations or Danish-inspired orthographical particularities. Thank you! Elsie Zinsser schrijft over mijn eerder gedane opmerkingen over Negerhollands en overeenkomsten met het Afrikaans: >So is die >>werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: >/styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ > >Ek dink jy verwar Afrikaanse streekvariasies (Kaaps; Griekwa-Afrikaans) >met Standaard Afrikaans. Ander voorbeelde is: >soontoe > syntoe >muur > mier Uiteraard beschikken we hier niet over fonetische tekens, maar de klinker die ik bedoel, de 'uu' in Afr. 'muur', zoals ik had geschreven, is een hoger uitgesproken /y/ die meer als een /i/ dan een /y/ klinkt (met de tong gerond en dus nader aan het harde verhemelte dan wat bij een zuivere /y/ het geval is, maar die wel gebruikelijk is voor een /i/). Toch is bij 'uu' de labialisering, de ronding, in het Afrikaans beduidend minder dan in het Nederlands (Paardekooper noemt ook 'ontronding') en zal voor een ontgeoefend Nederlands oor meer als een /i/ klinken. Natuurlijk vindt er nog wel ronding van de lippen plaats, zoals je zegt kun je dat bij Radio Sonder Grense horen, maar jouw voorbeeld van Kleurling- en Griekwa-Afrikaans als echte ontrondingsdialecten toont eens te meer aan dat het Afrikaans in tegenstelling tot het Nederlands een neiging tot ontrondig heeft. In het Afrikaans is de ronding bij 'uu' beperkt tot de mondhoeken, waardoor de mond enigszins getuit wordt, terwijl in het Nederlands de ronding volledig is en er een heel kleine opening blijft. Dit heeft duidelijke gevolgen voor de klank. Ontronding heeft bij transcriptie van het Negerhollands ertoe geleid dat een werkwoord als 'sti' met een 'i' wordt weergegeven en niet met een 'u'. > >>werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen >die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' >>werkwoord, soos in >Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. > >Maar is dit tipies van kreolisering? Het dit nie ook in moderne Engels >plaasgevind nie? Maar ik heb het bij mij weten helemaal niet gehad over creolisering. Het vergelijken van het Afrikaans met op het Nederlands gebaseerde creoolse talen kan allerlei uitkomsten geven; het kan bijvoorbeeld iets zeggen over een reeds op de scheepvaart aanwezige neiging tot vereenvoudiging van het werkwoordstelsel, maar het kan ook iets zeggen over de dialecten waar het Afrikaans en het Negerhollands op zijn gebaseerd, en het kan ook iets zeggen over creolisering. Bovendien zijn er mensen die beweren dat het Engels ook een creooltaal is. >Maar is dit nie 'n tipies Germaanse verskuiwing eerder as tiperend van >kreolisering nie? Jou voorbeeld morgen>môre is ook te sien in >Plautdietch morjes. Dit is dus waarom het interessant is om beide tale met elkaar te vergelijken en om te zien of er reeds in het stamland zulke ontwikkelingen waren. Ik denk namelijk ook dat de assimilatie van de 'g' in een woord als 'morgen' tot 'mre' al in Nederland kon zijn gebeurd. Maar dit was een assimilatie van 'g' in 'r'. Maar het verdwijnen van de 'g' tussen twee klinkers, of het verdwijnen van de g in werkwoorden na een lange klinker vindt plaats in zowel het Negerhollands als Afrikaans (Ned. 'dragen', Afr. 'dra' Neg. 'dra') is toch op z'n minst opmerkelijk. Groeten, Marcel, Bas. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 06:16:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:16:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: luc.hellinckx at pandora.be Subject: Folklore Beste liëglanners, Maybe I can kill two (or three) birds with one stone this time.some people were wondering if there's anybody around in the Lowlands area who has collected all these "Great Stories" that our grandparents used to tell.just like Grimm used to do in the 19th century.Well folks, such a guy does exist and his name is Stefaan Top. He is a professor at the university of Leuven in Belgium (Afdeling Nederlandse literatuur en volkskunde) and he's been collecting and publishing such stories ever since I know. You can find more information about him at the following link : http://cwisdb.cc.kuleuven.ac.be/persdb-bin/persdb?lang=N&oproep=persoon&fnaa m=17689 The second bird is about "Old Nick" (vs. Saint Nick). Could he be related to all those water sprites that we usually denote with : *nikker, nekker in Dutch (cf. Nekkerspoel in Mechelen) *nix in German *neck in English *nokke in Danish I always thought these words were derived from the Latin base "necro" (necromancy for example is pronounced "niggermanse" in Brabantish), which means black, quite an appropriate name for a devil I guess. On the other hand, this word has probably been influenced by the Sea God "Ægir" (related with Latin aqua = water, ~ aquarium). In this respect, maybe the story of "Ekke Nekkepen" (told in Helgoland) could provide more insight, dealing with an (impossible) relationship between a merman and a girl from the mainland. Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of leaving shoes outside the house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the inside, the more dirty it will be outside the house". It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folkore Luc, Lowlanders, > Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of leaving shoes outside the > house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And > finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the inside, the more dirty it > will be outside the house". > It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department > stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* Welcome to culture shock, Luc! Well, what you wrote there isn't really all that much off-topic. Bear in mind that China and the Lowlands are on one continent, Eurasia, and there is a cultural continuum betweeen them (never mind what fantasies circulate about "the continent Europe" and Marco Polo having discovered China). What you are witnessing in China -- and I know it very well first-hand, involving also throwing bones and fruit and vegetable peelings on the floor of homes and restaurants, later to be swept away -- is what used to be the case in Europe also, and not all that long ago (involving also animal stables and people's dwellings being under one roof and on one floor). It gradually disappeared with multi-story apartment living and carpeted floors. In China, as in Europe and Africa, floors are or used to be made from patted-down dirt and are or were perceived as extensions of the outside. Garbage thus can or could be trown onto them, and liquids could be spilled onto them, and the loose garbage would periodically be swept up and thrown outside. Because of this, floors are considered dirty, and you must always wear shoes inside and never sit or lie on a floor. This has been carried over into "modern" living, where floors are wooden, tiled, linoleum-covered or concrete and are or ought to be kept clean. You must also bear in mind the omnipresent gray Gobi Desert dust throughout Northern China, making it impossible to keep anything very clean without storing it in airtight containers (especially during those dry, biting-cold winters). My Chinese roommate used to be horrified when I walked around barefoot on our (atypically) immaculately clean wooden floor in the summer. He would swear that I would pick up a terrible disease or two and would die a torturous death, but he did not have any scientific explanation for that when I asked for it. In other words, this "knowledge" was unquestioned, had become folklore based on traditional Chinese medical knowledge that assumed dirt(y) floors. This would also explain why on a visit to a Kazakh family in Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) my Han Chinese companions would sit in a row on one bed, the only piece of furniture in the yurt, and would watch in discomfort as our hosts and I were sitting on a beautiful, clean rug eating dried fruit and sheepsmilk curds and drinking tea set on a silver tray placed on that rug on the floor (= patted-down clay) -- a truly barbarian and horrific sight for Han Chinese to behold. As for leaving shoes outside, let me clarify that the focus of the pre-Christian Scandinavian custom was not that the shoes were left outside (and for all I know they may have been left inside by the threshold) but that all family members' shoes were placed together to symbolize the wish that the next Yule none of the pairs would be missing, that the family would stay together another year. Leaving shoes outside to keep floors clean may be a much later development and does not only apply to Yule/Christmas. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: E Sproston Subject: "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattdüütsch mehr..." A song by Knut Kiesewetter - does anyone have the lyrics to this song? Thanks, Edward ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:16:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:16:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Deaf culture" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Names > > This got me thinking ... (Uh-oh!) It's not as though we don't have plenty > of projects already, but I would like you and others on the List > to consider > the possibility of presenting a brief introduction to > Lowlands-specific sign > language features, namely what the sign languages of the Lowlands That's quite an idea - I'll see what I can find out and if anyone else has any information along these lines we should gradually be able to pull something together. Aside from its occurrence in the story of the lumberjack, I didn't even mention that other large and fascinating area of Deaf communication, namely fingerspelling. In most countries, fingerspelling is done one-handed, using the hand to make shapes resembling the letters of an alphabet. In the UK, Australia and NZ, however, a two-handed alphabet is used. This can be traced back to Dalgrano's Glove, a fingerspelling alphabet devised by the 17th century scholar George Dalgranoch. Statistical analysis of Dalgrano's Glove suggests that it in turn was devised from the Pictish Ogham script, which Dalgranoch, being from Aberdeen, may well have been familiar with. Ogham, in turn, may actually have been a fingerspelling alphabet before it was ever carved on the standing stones. Why else would one transform the Roman alphabet into a script involving four sequences of five strokes, (left, right, slanted and dots)? It may be that Ogham derives from the Druidic tradition of Imbas Forosnai, where a poet or seer would cover his face with his hands and vast amounts of knowledge in poetic form would flow from his fingertips. St Patrick banned this practice in its incantatory form, but allowed it as a mnemonic device for recalling poetry. > propos "sign language" ... This leads me to ask if there are signing > equivalents for the languages that are "lower-ranking" (minority/regional) > or officially not recognized. What about Scots? Is there a general > Scottish (common English/Scots) sign language or two separate > ones? I don't > think there is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) one, or that, if one > did exist, > it is now lost, pushed out of the way by the Dutch and German sign > languages. Like every other language in the UK, the main danger to BSL is from English. Many hearing teachers of the Deaf only know the most rudimentary BSL and as a result attempt to either teach Deaf children to speak English, or in the case of those who really can't make themselves understood this way, attempt to teach them BSL signs with English grammar. The situation is slowly improving, however. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:26:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:26:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folkore I responded to Luc's experiences in China: > > Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of > eaving shoes outside the > > house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to > buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And > > finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the > inside, the more dirty it > > will be outside the house". > > It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department > stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* > > Welcome to culture shock, Luc! > > Well, what you wrote there isn't really all that much off-topic. Bear in > mind that China and the Lowlands are on one continent, Eurasia, and there is > a cultural continuum betweeen them (never mind what fantasies circulate > about "the continent Europe" and Marco Polo having discovered China). What > you are witnessing in China -- and I know it very well first-hand, involving > also throwing bones and fruit and vegetable peelings on the floor of homes > and restaurants, later to be swept away -- is what used to be the case in > Europe also, and not all that long ago (involving also animal stables and > people's dwellings being under one roof and on one floor). It gradually > disappeared with multi-story apartment living and carpeted floors. > > In China, as in Europe and Africa, floors are or used to be made from > patted-down dirt and are or were perceived as extensions of the outside. > Garbage thus can or could be trown onto them, and liquids could be spilled > onto them, and the loose garbage would periodically be swept up and thrown > outside. Because of this, floors are considered dirty, and you must always > wear shoes inside and never sit or lie on a floor. This has been carried > over into "modern" living, where floors are wooden, tiled, linoleum-covered > or concrete and are or ought to be kept clean. You must also bear in mind > the omnipresent gray Gobi Desert dust throughout Northern China, making it > impossible to keep anything very clean without storing it in airtight > containers (especially during those dry, biting-cold winters). My Chinese > roommate used to be horrified when I walked around barefoot on our > (atypically) immaculately clean wooden floor in the summer. He would swear > that I would pick up a terrible disease or two and would die a torturous > death, but he did not have any scientific explanation for that when I asked > for it. In other words, this "knowledge" was unquestioned, had become > folklore based on traditional Chinese medical knowledge that assumed dirt(y) > floors. This would also explain why on a visit to a Kazakh family in > Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) my Han Chinese companions would sit in a row on > one bed, the only piece of furniture in the yurt, and would watch in > discomfort as our hosts and I were sitting on a beautiful, clean rug eating > dried fruit and sheepsmilk curds and drinking tea set on a silver tray > placed on that rug on the floor (= patted-down clay) -- a truly barbarian > and horrific sight for Han Chinese to behold. > > As for leaving shoes outside, let me clarify that the focus of the > pre-Christian Scandinavian custom was not that the shoes were left outside > (and for all I know they may have been left inside by the threshold) but > that all family members' shoes were placed together to symbolize the wish > that the next Yule none of the pairs would be missing, that the family would > stay together another year. Leaving shoes outside to keep floors clean may > be a much later development and does not only apply to Yule/Christmas. I am not sure if I made myself clear. Let me just say that it is my basic hypothesis that folk *wisdom* (i.e., handed-down scientific knowledge - such as disease prevention rules - acquired through experience and observation over millennia) is oftentimes passed down without the original scientific reasoning, thus “deteriorates” by becoming unquestioned traditional etiquette (“Thou shalt not ... (but don’t ask me why)”), oftentimes with folkloristic embellishments and thus disguised as or transformed to folklore, and this tradition may be retained even after the need for it disappears (in this case perceiving and treating all floors as equal to earth/soil, even where they are not). Perhaps we can think of parallel cases in Lowlands cultures. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:31:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:31:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Holidays Hi everyone - and best wishes for Christmas etc, The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized Christmas? For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? curious as always George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 05:10:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:10:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.10 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] At 08:31 AM 12/09/02 -0800, George Gibault wrote: >The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite >characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying >the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North >America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized >Christmas? >For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? There used to be, and probably still is, a Mummers' Parade in Philadelphia on New Years. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] To George Gibault Philadelphia is well known in the Northeast for its colorful mummers. I have never seen them myself but they are apparently a very old tradition there. Tom Byro From: George M Gibault Subject: Holidays Hi everyone - and best wishes for Christmas etc, The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized Christmas? For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? curious as always George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 06:00:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:00:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.10 (02) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Dag allen, Ron, jij schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Dat doet mij denken aan iemands bijdrage aan Lowlands-L van enkele jaren geleden; de persoon schreef jou aan met 'Ron Haan', en jouw reactie was niet alleen maar een correctie, maar je toonde je ook nogal blij dat iemand jouw achternaam met zo'n cht Laaglandse spelling (dubbel 'a') tooide. Dat vond ik erg grappig. Grtoeten, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Marcel, "Grappig"?! Hoekom dit verbaas jy dat *ek* meer hou van die *Laaglandse* spelling van my naam -- die spelling wat my met baie naamgenote in Nederland, België en Suid-Afrika verbind -- dan die "verduitste" spelling? Terloops, sommige Noordduitse naamgenote spel hul naam ook "Haan". Ja, ek gebruik dikwels 'n "verduitste" spelling as ek Nedersaksies (Nederduits, Platduits) skryf, maar dat doen ek teësinnig, hou meer van spellings wat in die Laaglandse tradisie is (sonder _Dehnungs-H_, dus _Haan_ in plaas van _Hahn_). Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 20:54:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:54:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] Dear all Interested in discussion over word 'Gallus' / 'gallous'. There is a Northumbrian word 'Gallouses' meaning 'braces', which blokes wear to hold up their 'troosers'. Gan canny, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for the above, Glenn. I hope you won't mind that for the benefit of our subscribers in the United States I add that what you call "braces (for trousers)" are "suspenders" in US English (_bretels_ in Dutch, Scots _gallowses (for breeks or troosers)_). As far as I know, in non-American English "suspender" (or "suspender belt") denotes or used to denote devices that hold up articles of underwear (overlapping somewhat with "garter belt"). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 00:55:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:55:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: gallus I've heard the term "gallus suspenders" used in North Georgia to describe wide, colorful suspenders. Kevin McAuliff ---------- From: jpkrause Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] Yes, the word "Gallusses" is well known here in the US, too. [Jim Krause] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:23:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:23:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] > From: Glenn Simpson > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] > > Dear all > > Interested in discussion over word 'Gallus' / > 'gallous'. There is a Northumbrian word 'Gallouses' meaning 'braces', > which blokes wear to hold > up their 'troosers'. > > Gan canny, > > Glenn Simpson > Northumbrian Language Society > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks for the above, Glenn. I hope you won't mind > that for the benefit of > our subscribers in the United States I add that what > you call "braces (for > trousers)" are "suspenders" in US English (_bretels_ > in Dutch, Scots > _gallowses (for breeks or troosers)_). As far as I > know, in non-American > English "suspender" (or "suspender belt") denotes or > used to denote devices > that hold up articles of underwear (overlapping > somewhat with "garter > belt"). > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron Well, most interesting. It reminds me that in Dutch -some 150 years ago or so- suspenders / braces were called 'galgjes' which mean 'little gallows'. Who said we didn't have humour. vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:25:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:25:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp repp at silk.net Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.09 (04) [E] > From: E Sproston > Subject: "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattdüütsch mehr..." > > A song by Knut Kiesewetter - does anyone have the lyrics to this song? > Thanks, > Edward I do not have the lyrics to this song in print, but they can be heard on a Karussel Audio Cassette, titled "Fresenhof, " Number 839 021-4. The whole title is "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattdüütsch mehr un he versteiht uns nich." Reuben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:27:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:27:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.11 (03) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.10 (02) [A/D] Hallo Ron, >"Grappig"?! Hoekom dit verbaas jy dat *ek* meer hou van die *Laaglandse* >spelling van my naam -- die spelling wat my met baie naamgenote in >Nederland, België en Suid-Afrika verbind -- dan die "verduitste" spelling? >Terloops, sommige Noordduitse naamgenote spel hul naam ook "Haan". Ek hoop nie jy dink ek skeer die gek met jou voorkeurspelling van Nedersaksiese vanne nie; inteendeel! Ek waardeer dit wanneer iemand so konsekwent bewus is van sy kulturele agtergrond. Maar dis net 'snaaks' omdat die meeste mense taamlik omgekrap is as iemand hul vanne verkeerdelik skryf, terwyl *jy* dit juis waardeer as jou van volgens die - in daardie geval - Nederlandse ortografie gespel word. Groetnis, Marcel Bas (my kort van is glo 'n tipiese voorbeeld van 'n kort, Noord-Hollandse van; dis glo 'n vorm van Sebastiaan). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 16:22:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:22:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: jpkrause Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.10 (01) [E] The custom of Mummers Plays, or parades has died out among Low German Mennonites in Kansas, where I have lived for thirty years. I only found out about it from looking up various words in Herman Rempel's dictionary. Too bad too, for it sounded like fun. Jim Krause ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 21:44:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:44:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: RBlaustein at aol.com Subject: Folklore Dear Lowlanders, I find this recent discussion of folklore extremely interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is good to learn about the ongoing work of Professor Stefaan Tap at the University of Leuven concerning what the Grimm Brothers termed Kinder und Haus Märchen. Luc’s question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as collectors of folktales. I recently consulted their pioneering dictionary, seeking to determine the etymology of <>. Most of the English and German sources I have thus far consulted state that "Pelznickel" or "Belsnickel" means "Furry Nicholas, Nicholas in Furs," though some admit that its etymology is uncertain and debatable. (if any readers of this list know of any books or journal articles dealing with the etymology of Pelznickel, please let me know). According to the Grimm’s Deutsches Wörterbuch (Leipzig: Verband von S. Hirzel, 1889), "nickel" has several meanings in German, including: 1) nickel, n. pr. The short form of the name Nikolaus; 2) nickel is like Hans, Kunz, etc., used among other things as a name for the devil (Myth 4, 889), Swabian nickel kobold Birlinger Volksth., 1, 349. (The Online Etymological Dictionary states that nickel in German is "a rascal, demon, goblin, (a pet form of the name Nickolaus ), hence Old Nick, "the devil." ) The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition supports Luc’s hypothesis: "Nick or Old Nick is a well-known appellation of the Devil. The name appears to have been derived from the Dutch Nikken, the devil, which again comes from the Anglo-Saxon nac-an, to slay--for as Wachter says the devil was "a murderer from the beginning." [is this the root of modern English "knacker," "butcher" ?] In the northern countries there is a river spirit named "Neck," "Nikke," or "Nokke" of the same nature as the water Kelpie, and the Merman of Triton." The English term for a water spirit, "nixie" is closely related to German words such as "wassernixe" (nixie), "nixe" (mermaid), and "nickert," a child-stealing water sprite, and also the Shetlandic "njugl," a sea-dwelling shape-shifter who takes the form of a monstrous water-horse. In the Prose Edda, Nikudr ("Spear-Lord") and Nickar ("Striker") are two of the twelve names of Odin. Several sources claim that Old Nick derives from Hold Nickar, the Teutonic/Norse counterpart of Poseidon and Neptune, king of the water sprites and sea monsters. While this etymology is clearly speculative, it is also a classic example of the linguistic and cultural survivals that fascinated the Grimms and the 19th century folklorists they inspired. As Reinhold/Ron suggests in his response to Luc, folklore includes such eroded vestiges of beliefs and practices Gesünkenes Kulturgut whose original meanings or rationales have been lost or changed over time, such as myths becoming fairy tales or rituals preserved in children’s games or seasonal festivities. There are undoubtedly no end of linguistic and cultural survivals in Lowland cultures (and elsewhere), though these days most folklorists are more concerned with documenting living traditions rather than speculatively reconstructing their roots. Nonetheless, survivals do exist and they are well worth exploring. Best wishes to all for a happy holiday season and a good new year! Richard ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 22:20:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:20:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (01) [E] To Glenn Simpson: In a book, "The Gangs of New York", there is a description of a female bouncer in one of the most dangerous waterside bars of New York of the mid 19th century, "The Hole in the Wall Bar." Her name was given as either Gallus Nag or Gallus Meg ( I don't have the book handy. She was reportedly over 6 feet tall and from England and carried a club tucked into a sash around her waist. When someone displeased her, she would knock them down with her club and drop down to all fours, bite an ear of the unfortunate person and drag them out by the ear. If they protested or screamed in pain, she would cut the ear off and add it to her collection of human ears maintained in a jar behind the bar (presumably preserved in alcohol). I used to wonder about her strange first name but it appears that it might have been a nickname rather than a proper first name. Are there a lot of very tough female bouncers in Northumberland? By the way, the Hole in the Wall bar is now the sedate Bridge Cafe, and is where the Brooklyn Bridge enters Manhattan. It is noteworthy in being one of the few wooden buildings in Manhattan. Most of the old wooden buildings got burned down by arsonists sent in by George Washington to punish New Yorkers for taking the side of the king during the Revolutionary War. According to a book I saw at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, 80% of New Yorkers were deprived of their citizenship and nearly deprived of their property after the Revolutionary War for having sided with the king. New York has allways been out of sorts with the rest of the country and could with some justice be described as not being a part of the states at all but rather an island in between America and Europe. Some two months before the South attempted to seccede from the United States, our major, Fernando Woods, attempted to read a declaration of independence from the United States for New York City, when he got busted by federal troops. I love the city and I wish I was still living there. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 22:43:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:43:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Folklore" > From: RBlaustein at aol.com > Subject: Folklore > > Lucs question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that > "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water > spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as > collectors of folktales. I found Richard's comments on spirits by the name of Nick & variations very interesting. Of course there's the very common "Auld Nick" in Scots and various other names for the Devil with the qualifier "Auld", the most general being simply "The Auld Ane" ("The Old One"). Perhaps this too goes back to Odin - ie, the God of the old religion, now considered evil? Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Like Sandy (above), found Richard's thoughts and observations very interesting -- even though he attributed Gabriele's question to Luc and joined the ranks of those that call me "Reinhold" instead of "Reinhard," perhaps because I seem more _hold_ ('gracious,' 'well-disposed', 'sweet', 'dear') than hard (though little does he know ...). ;) We need to bear in mind that in many traditions the kindly figure St. Nick is accompanied by one or more scary figures, ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 23:24:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Message-ID: This one decided to run away before I could mention the scary guys. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Folklore" > From: RBlaustein at aol.com > Subject: Folklore > > Lucs question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that > "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water > spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as > collectors of folktales. I found Richard's comments on spirits by the name of Nick & variations very interesting. Of course there's the very common "Auld Nick" in Scots and various other names for the Devil with the qualifier "Auld", the most general being simply "The Auld Ane" ("The Old One"). Perhaps this too goes back to Odin - ie, the God of the old religion, now considered evil? Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Like Sandy (above), found Richard's thoughts and observations very interesting -- even though he attributed Gabriele's question to Luc and joined the ranks of those that call me "Reinhold" instead of "Reinhard," perhaps because I seem more _hold_ ('gracious,' 'well-disposed', 'sweet', 'dear') than "hard" (though little does he know ...). ;) We need to bear in mind that in many traditions the kindly figure St. Nick is accompanied by one or more scary figures, like _Zwarte Piet_ in the Netherlands, and the German _Weinachtsmann_'s helper Knecht Ruprecht. Note the following customs in Austria: Customs connected with St. Nicholas are performed on the eve of his feast. On the evening of December 5th, the bishop and his companion(s) appear either in the old way (on foot and in small groups) or in more modern parades (and often on trucks and with many costumed characters, for example at Laxenburg, Laa an der Thaya and Wolkersdorf, Lower Austria, or at Innsbruck-Hötting in Tyrol). These big public parades are recent developments, probably influenced by the Nicholas traditions of the Netherlands. Nicholas pageants, combined with plays or at least scenes, can be found at Matrei (Tyrol) under the name "Klaubaufgehen", at Oberdrauburg (Carinthia) as "Bartel-Lauf" ("Bartel" being one of the many names for the devil characters accompanying St. Nicholas), at Haimburg (Carinthia), at Bad Mitterndorf (Styria) and at St. Roman and Windischgarsten (Upper Austria). A strange masked figure called "Thomasnikolo" (Tom Nicholas) is known only at Gams near Hieflau (Styria) and appears on December 21st, the feast of St. Thomas, and shows the interlinking of mid-winter customs which, e.g., moved St. Nicholas to Christmas Eve as Santa Claus in the traditions of English-speaking nations. The "Wild Hunt" ("Wildes Gjaid") of the Untersberg roams the streets of Salzburg on the second Thursday in Advent, the masked men representing characters of local folk legends. (http://www.anto.com/artikel3.html) Richard mentioned the _Pelznickel_. Aren't those the scary mummers that cleanse houses of evil spirits in the Alemannic areas? (The wear costumes that are like _Pelz_ 'fur', are _zottig_ 'shaggy'.) It seems to me that lots of pre-Christian trolls and the like somehow got mixed up with the devil. And names of for the devil in Sussex: Some people in Sussex used to refer to the Devil as "He" since it was bad luck to speak the Devil's name. For those who didn't hold this superstition, there were several names that the Devil went by. An old name for part of the ramparts of Devil's Dyke Camp is the" Poor Man's Wall", Poor Man being one of many names for the Devil, others include Old Nick, Old Scratch, Old Man, Old Harry, Naughty Man, Old Grim and Mr. Grimm. These names echo the ridicule the Devil has to suffer in the legends associated with him. In addition to these, the name Beelzebub is used in the Sussex Mummers Play and there may be a link with the name Puck, more readily associated with fairies. A companion for Satan also gets a mention, going under the name of "Dame Dark". (http://www2.prestel.co.uk/aspen/sussex/devil.html#main8) Obviously, these names are all taboo name replacements (which I find a very interesting topic in itself). I assume that of all religious and mythological figures, that of the devil is the most tabooized and thus has the largest number of replacement names. Grimm wrote an entire chapter about that (here in English: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/03301.html). Is not the Yiddish name _shed_ (one of several) for the devil a shortened version of _sheytan_ ('Satan'), or does it have a different etymology? I also remember vaguely that the weird-sounding German phrase (_wo der Bartel den Most herholt_, as in _Geh dahin, wo der Bartel den Most herholt!_ telling someone to get lost), which sounds like "where Bartel (= Bartholomew) fetches/gets the cider (from)", goes back to the now extinct social fringe jargon Rotwelsch, where _Most_ comes from Yiddish _maos_ or _mos_ (< Hebrew _ma'oth_ 'small coins') and Bartel may be derived from one of the devil's names (thus, "where the devil gets (the) money"?). Getting back to what Richard and Sandy talked about, consider this Old Saxon (8-9th cent.) baptismal oath (under "Low Saxon" at http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/, with English, Dutch, German and Russian translations so far) in which Germanic gods are characterized as demons: A: forsaichistu diobolae? B: ec forsacho diobolae. A: end allum diobolgelde? B: end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae. A: end allum dioboles uuercum? B: end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuoden ende Saxnote ende allvm them unholdum the hira genotas sint. A: gelobeistu in got alamehtigan fadaer? B: ec gelobo in got alamehtigan fadaer. A: gelobeistu in Crist gotes suno? B: ec gelobo in Crist gotes suno. A: gelobeistu in halogan gast? B: ec gelobo in halogan gast A: Do you forsake the devil? B: I (do) forsake the devil. A: And all devil worship? B: And I (do) forsake all devil worship. A: And all the devil’s works? B: And I (do) forsake all the devil’s works and words, Donar and Wotan (Odin) and Saxnot and all those demons that are their companions. A: Do you believe in God, the Almighty Father? B: I (do) believe in God, the Almighty Father. A: Do you believe in Christ, the Son of God? B: I (do) believe in Christ, the Son of God. A: Do you believe in the Holy Ghost? B: I (do) believe in the Holy Ghost. Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: A demon (and 'evil-doer') is referred to as _unhold_, thus the opposite of _hold_ (as in "Reinhold," see above). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 00:53:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:53:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] Hi all! If pelznikel relates to goblins in some dialects - could it relate to pilz? Some mushrooms - such as amanita muscaria - are extremely hallucinogenic - when not actually lethal. I gather reindeer eat them in Lapland and Lapplanders make fun of the antics of these "stoned" reindeer. I have also heard that "petit chaperon rouge" - Little Red Riding Hood - is a secret name for the same mushroom. Could we be bumping into some pre-Christian plan worship lore disguised in fairy tales? Just curious George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 15:27:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:27:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.12 (01) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.23 (01) [S] Sandy wrate: > >But ar thae examples comprehensive? Whit aboot: > >mat - mate - material, maternal >rat - rate - fraternity >fat - fate - fatal >fad - fade - >rap - rape - papal > >How div ye describe thir: The'r twa things here. (a) some o thaim dis (happen ti?) fit the reul - in 'fatal' an 'papal' the single consonant shaws at the 'a' is [e] - or in ither words, at the 'magic e' is implicit. fate gies fatal, but fat gies fatted - cp fated. (b) Maternal, material an fraternity is aa Latin wirds, an sae disna follae the reul. Like I'v been sayin aa alang, if ye'r gaun ti adapt English-type spellin ti Scots (an that's no the same thing as describin English spellin as it staunds) ye maun recognise thae etymological spellins as bein ootwi the reul. Nou, of coorse, 'fate' an 'papal' is Latinate wirds as weel - ye coud say at thay only follae the reul bi a happen! But that disna maiter - cause we'r no tryin ti justifee English spellin here. Whit I'm arguin is no at English haes a reul at ye can uise ti generate English spellin, but at _if_ ye want ti adapt English-style spellin ti Scots, _than_ the'r reuls aboot consonant dooblin at ye can apply ti words like 'maiter', 'hame' an the like. Thae reuls is identifiable in English spellin - the fact at the'r a fouth o exceptions in English spellin disna alter the fact at ye can uise thae reuls ti spell Scots words at's no common wi English, an thay'll than mell wi ither English words at's spelt wi the same conventions. Sae 'maiter' like 'waiter', 'hame' like 'same', 'hale' like 'pale', etc. Coorse ye need ither spellins for Scots tae, at disna kythe in English - for example, ye'v the initial consonant cluster 'skl' in Scots at ye dinna (I dinna think) hae in English, an gin 'aiple' wis an English pronunciation it wad likely be spelt 'aple' - cp 'maple' - but it's still faur mair homogenous nor the kynd o Scots spellin at comes oot wi pairs like 'muckle' an 'bukkil' or 'skart' an 'scar'. An that's the rael pynt. The affcome o no daein whit I'm sayin is no at a faur better spellin will kythe - it's at aabodie will juist cairie on uisin spellins like 'maitter' , 'haill' an 'skart' at's _mair_ inconsistent nor the feck o English anes. > >natural - nature >national - nation >feral - federal >rational - rationale >lapidary, lapel - ape >age - agar >radical - radiation >&c &c &c > >Ye can come up wi a description for thir, but yer rules juist >multiplies tae whaur they're wirth naething. Aa ye can describe >wi general rules is the simple cases. Na na - ye'r completely ignorin whit I'v sayed aa the time (an I dinna ken whit wey - it's no like I hinna sayed it aften eneuch!) at thae fremmit words (includin _agar_, at's Malay) disna conform ti the consonant dooblin reuls. This is whit wey - ti repeat mysel again - I say at ye need ti recognise Etymological spellins as bein different frae the lave. O the ithers, the spellin 'lappel' is leetit in Chambers dictionar, sae the'r nae raison whit wey that coudna be uised in Scots; an _ape_ an _age_ is regular. > >> I canna see at disna faa inti the uisual doobled consonant reul - >> compare able, maple, table, noble, bogle wi apple, babble, rabble, nobble, >> boggle. Here the is juist a conventional wey o writin final >> [l], no the >> 'magic' e, but the convention for shawin the vowel soond is >> obvious eneuch. > >Like afore, it seems tae wirk gin ye wale aesy examples. What >happens whan ye rin intae the likes o , , >(cf , ), &c? Again, I'm no tryin ti justifee English spellin per se - raither ti identifee reuls at lats ye ken hou ti spell onie wird (or e'en maist wirds wad be a impruvement!) in Scots. Anither thing I'v aye sayed is at, even whan ye'v sortit oot the Etymological (nation, etc.), morphological carefu - wi the 'fu' pronunced different in different airts, an spelt as a morpheme) an phonological ('glaikit', etc) spellins in Scots, ye'v still the problem o the English spellins at disna faa inti onie o thir categories - door, tongue, etc. It's than a strecht (Hobson's?) chyce whither ye spell thaim as they ar in English, or conform thaim ti the reuls ye'v identifeed for the sake o spellin Scots (doar, tung). But except ye identifee an decide on thae reuls first, ye canna conform thaim. Ye micht write it as a (kynd o) algorithm: 1. Spell Latin, Greek an (possibly) French words the same as in English (nation, angel, touch), exceptin whaur ye get tradeetional spellins like 'speerit' whaur the Scots pronunciation is emphasised. 2. Mak a leet o words (maistly pronouns, preposeetions, thirlt morphemes an the like) ti be spelt morphologically. 3. Spell ither words efter the English-type consonant dooblin reuls (ootlined in the Spellin Comatee blad) 4. Hobson's chyce whither ye spell the hine orra spellins like 'door' the same as English, or re-spell thaim efter (3). Sae the'r nae pynt speakin aboot whit ti dae whan ye rin inti the likes o 'ugly' an 'juggling' or 'gobble' an 'goblet' unless ye (a) decide whit the reul is - a thing ye'll nivver dae as lang's ye haud at this is nae uiss - an than (b) whither ye conform the Scots spellin o thaim ti the reul, or leave the English inconsistencies on the grunds o kenspeckleness. The ettle o this is no ti cleck a haley consistent spellin - it's first o aa ti evyte the haley inconsistent spellins the like o 'maitter' an 'haill'. > >> In , the problem is at the 'e' baith alters the vowel frae [a] ti >> [e:] (uisin Scottish Standard English pronunciations) an the >> consonant frae >> [g] ti [dZ] (or the group frae [N] ti [n(d)Z]. Compare: >> >> bang - change > >Again, it juist wirks gin ye watch yersel an no wale haurd examples, >eg , , . Of course ye can describe aa thir but >like I says afore, ye need mair an mair rules. Nou hing on a meenutie! It wis you at cam up wi thae examples, no me! If ye'r makkin up a spellin for Scots, ye can draw the line (as ti whit's a reul an whit's an exception) whaurivver ye like. I'm speakin aboot follaein English spellin whaur the reuls can be follaed, no whaur thay canna. (Coorse, i the examples abuin, ye'v the addit complication o the English [Ng] correspondin ti Scots [N] in certain wirds.) 'Banger' an 'stranger' is baith morphological spellins - 'bang-er' an 'strange-er'. (Ti be fykie, ye coud spell 'stranger' as 'strange'r', ti shaw whaur the'r a 'e' hippit, tho 'strange' is French oniewey) 'Angel' is a etymological spellin, frae the Greek. It wad be possible ti mak a pronuncable spellin system for Scots bi cleckin new conventions, like: strangre (strang-re), angre, stranger (strange-r) strangir, angir, stranger Houaniver, for practical purposes ye dinna hiv ti tell fowk hou ti say words at's areddies fameeliar in English - the problem is hou ti spell words at's no (whither no standard English ava, like _glaikit_, or English cognates like _aiple_) sae at fowk kens hou ti pronunce words like 'strang-er' different frae 'strange-r'. Oniewey, the extra problem caused bi the final -e efter -g is a speecial case - ir the onie seemilar problems wi ither consonants? Gin it's only final 'g' at causes the problem, it wadna be impossible ti redd that up. >> >This is whit wey yer "dooble-v" idea is wirthless, John - >> >it's liftin ae shui whan the hale midden wants reddin. >> >> I canna see at it's wirthless ti dae somethin juist cause ye canna dae >> aathing. Apply that wey o leukin at it ti life in general, an naething wad >> ivver be duin! Dooble dis awa wi onie ambiguities aboot the >> pronuncin o >> words like 'ivver', 'rivven' an siclike bi uisin a convention >> at's weel kent >> in the likes o 'hidden'. > >But we'r no applyin it tae life in general, we'r juist applyin >it tae English spellin - applyin it tae a system for writin >naething mair than the 40-odd phonemes o English. It juist >shows ye what a mire ye'v gotten yersel intae whan ye think >the natur o life in general is a appropriate analogy for >English spellin! > >Fowk haes tae can write, an write richt. Fowk wi nae spaecial >intellectual pretensions should can maister a spellin system >tae the pynt whaur they can write wi some confidence. They >_should_ can dae aathing - it's only 40-odd phonemes! Ti begin wi, spellin is life in general - in Scotland, oniewey - cause it's a maiter o psychology - no sae muckle hou the langage shoud be spelt, as whit fowk will accept. In fact, ye coud compare it ti poleetical ideologies. The'r some at believes (or uised ti) in bringin in Utopia bi violent revolution (compare raidical spellin systems) an ithers at believes at ye'll nivver hae perfection, an oniething ye dae maun be bi greement. The differ is at it's _possible_ ti hae a nearhaund perfect spellin system the wey at it's no possible ti hae a perfect society; but _successful_ spellin systems haes aften no been perfect ava - like English, Faroese, Chinese. Whit thay maun be is stable. The thing aboot intellectual pretensions coud be sayed the ither wey. The less intellectual pretensions fowk haes, the less thay'll likely can be bathered wi oniething at's ower different frae the fameeliar English. Unless ye can teach thaim it frae primary wan in schuil, that is. > >> >I dout we can say that English orthographic rules is descriptive, >> >but asweel, that it's no possible tae mak a daecent description >> >o'd the wey it stauns. Ye end up wi circular airgyments, aa in >> >conflick wi ane anither. >> >> Ay, that's fairly true - but ye dinna need airguments ti describe >> somethin. >> Aa ye maun dae is describe whit's actually there - ie, ye can describe the >> mat-mate reul wi'oot tryin ti justifee it. Is it no tryin ti inhaud things >> at disna fit at maks maist o the fause threips? The 'dooble v' >> reul is juist > >But ye _canna_ describe it. You'r giein ae rule, ignorin aa >exceptions an speakin as tho ye'r describin English spellin. Na - I'm ettlin ti describe juist eneuch o't ti shaw hou it's possible ti spell non-English words ti mell wi't. Ti dae that, ye only hiv ti shaw the braid conventions - exceptions disna maiter. Ye can aither juist ignore thaim, or redd thaim up efterhaund if ye like. Ye canna decide whither or no ti conform wirds til a reul except ye decide whit the reul is first. Gin the dooble consonant reul can be shawn for maist aa consonants, than ye can spell Scots words wi the same consonants that wey - an that's maistly whit we dae oniewey, for example, whan we spell 'laddie' an 'tattie' an no 'ladie' an 'tatie'. >Yer rule's insignificant compared wi what a richt description >o English orthography wad tak. But whit wad the proportions be? Hou monie words wad ye need ti redd up (or ignore), compared wi anes ye wadna? In ither words, hou comprehensive a description o English spellin div ye actually need ti come up wi reuls for spellin Scots? Naither "description" is ony >uise for onything - ane's ower simple tae help fowk tae spell >mair than the simplest wirds, the ither's ower complicate for >onybody tae apply. But aften it's spellin the simple words - like 'aiple' an 'maiter' - whaur the problems kythes. > >> flittin 'v' frae the list o exceptions whaur the dooblin reul disna wirk, >> inti the 'body o the Kirk' as ye micht say, an it haes the advantage o >> makkin it less likely at fowk is gaun ti rhyme 'ivver' wi 'fiver' raither >> nor wi 'liver' (at wad than be 'livver' in Scots). It's a hauf-wey hoose, >> recognisin at (a) even gin ye div spell words wi English-like spellins (b) >> ye still canna lippen on fowk ti pronunce the Scots words richt bi sheer >> fameeliarity, like ye can in English. > >But it disna tak ye a significant step nearer a mensefu spellin >system - ye'v hunders o rules an exceptions tae redd up yit. >Bi the time ye'v redd aathing up ye'll be left wi a radical >spellin system - ye'd a been a sicht better aff startin wi a >radical spellin system in the first place! I dinna believe this. Aince ye'v waled oot the Etymological an Morphological anes, an acceptit at ye can aither ignore or redd the orra English anes, I dinna believe it wad tak aa this ti come up wi a raisonable wey o spellin onie wird ye come ower at's aither no fameeliar frae standard English, or at haes ti be altert frae the English spellin. Juist for a experiment, I'll gang throwe the abuin paragraph wird bi wird an pit thaim in categories (whaur thay can belang mair nor ae catogory - eg: 'or' or 'ignore' - it disna maiter - it's whaur thay dinna fit inti onie category at the'r a problem; an the'r ithers at coud be spelt aither morphologically - duina - or phonologically - dinna.) Morphological spellins: I, ye, ye'v, wad, wi, hae-s, the, an, ane-s, or, it, ti, up, a, o, no, frae, be, for, I'll. Etymological spellins (altert or no): etymological, morphological, acceptit, ignore, raisonable (Fr raison), fameeliar, experiment, paragraph, standard, aa (airguably, cause o the hippit final /l/) (dia)Phonological Spellins: dinna, believe, wale, oot, can, orra, wey, spellin, onie, wird, ower, aither, altert, juist, gang, throwe, abuin, (this). Orra Anes redd - tradeetional spellin - shoud be follaein normal convention tak - tradeetional spellin - shoud be come - English spellin - shoud be English - English spellin - shoud be aince - airguably shoud be _ance_ cause o _ane_. This seems ti me ti fit inti the scheme I'v been speakin aboot. The feck o wirds is the wee 'morphological' anes, at can be leetit. Whan ye'v waled oot thaim an the 'etymological' (Laitin, Greek, French) anes (whaur onie alterations is foondit on the phonological spellins - eg: 'ignore' wi a follaein 'e' at's no i the Laitin, an emphasis o 'ee' soonds in wirds like 'speerit') ye'r left wi maistly wirds at follaes fairly easy reuls. Onie problems wi spellin thaim - like 'aither' 'either' or 'aether' - is (dia)phonological questions at ye wad hae wi a raidical system an aa (except 'this' at I'v left here raither nor i the morphological category ti shaw up the want o a sinderin atween [T] an [D] in English.) The lave - the orra anes - ye can aither conform ti phonological spellins or English/tradeetional fameeliarity. I wad jalouse at, in maist paragraphs o this lenth, this wad be the case, wi only the odd ane thrawin up a anomaly (or whiles juist conflict wi English pronunciations) like 'fin(n)d' or 'strang-er' at wad need mair raidical surgery - or wadna, gin ye decidit at the Scots spellins wis a system in thairsels an shoudna need sindert frae English pronuncins. In ither wirds, whaur ye finnd a heap o exceptions in a dictionar, in actual texts I jalouse ye dinna finnd thaim that aften. >> This is a hauf-wey-hoose airgument, but ye _coud_ cleck a mair regular >> spellin foondit on English-like spellins. Here ye wad - for >> example - spell >> 'chainge' an 'aible', keepin the 'e' no cause it's a magic 'e' in >> thir cases >> but cause final an = [dZ] is ither orthographic conventions. In >> ither words, cause the final canna wirk here, ye wad faa back >> on anither >> wey o shawin the vowel soond - bi a digraph. I canna see whit wey >> this wadna >> wirk, unless by 'wirk' ye mean at nae exceptions is allooed. It >> still wadna >> be completely regular, but it wad be mair regular nor the wey Scots is >> maistly written evenou. > >It's no that nae exceptions can be alloued in a system - but >a system that leaves us wi hunders o exceptions isna wirth >onything. I think ye need tae try an git some perspective on >juist hou mony rules the ar in English spellin (an traditional >Scots is waur) an juist hou mony exceptions the ar tae maist >rules. Ay - but hou monie actual wirds is thae reuls takkin tent o? Aiblins a puckle reuls dis for the maist feck o wirds, an it taks a fouth o reuls ti tak tent o a puckle exceptions? > >A wad say that exceptions is mensfu for awfu common wirds - it's >better tae write "we" an "be" an save the bather o extrae letters >for things that ony reader uizes that aften he disna need rules >tae mind them, an whaur the wirds is uized that aften that the >letters saved is significant. Ye micht mak exceptions for antrin >foreign wirds or even allou something like twice as mony rules >wi the wey Scots an English is baith creoles wi Saxon an Latin >strynds. But no hunders o exceptions tae vernear every rule! Hou monie reuls can ye gie hunders o exceptions for? An whit div ye mean bi a exception - is aa the words wi final 'g' coontit as single exceptions, for example? Insteid o reuls, ye coud think on it as analogies. Maist Scots words haes conventional analogies in English, for example _muckle_ wi _buckle_. Whit I'm tryin ti dae is recognise the common conventions sae ye can spell bi analogy wi thaim. The exceptions disna maiter, cause ye dinna want ti spell bi analogy wi thaim. Oniewey, ye can tak it ye'v wun the airgument! Whit this aa pruves is at onie spellin at's thocht up for Scots will be uised bi precisely ae bodie - the ane at thocht it up. The consequences can be seen in this threip - at insteid o wirkin til a common spellin frae a common approach, we'r wirkin awa frae a common spellin frae differin approaches. Oniewey, the boddom line is - aither ye'v ti spell Scots wi somethin like the tradeetional spellins (at, for practical ettles, nou means maistly English-influenced anes), or ye'v ti spell it some ither wey, an mak it less readable ti maist readers. An wha's gaun ti dae that? John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 15:29:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:29:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.12 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson westwylam at yahoo.co.uk Subject: ""Etymology" [E] FAO Tom Byro - Tom, Thanks for that - found it very amusing. I'm very interested in the fact that in the US some words have survived in there. It reminds me of a song we have in the region - Cushie Butterfield: 'She's aa big lass 'an aa bonny wern [one] and she lykes [likes] hor [her] beor [beer], Wuh [we] caal [call] hor Cushie Butterfield 'an wu [we] wish she wez [was] heor' [here]. Who knows it might be her! Are there records of any Northumrian survivals in North America? Gan canny, Glenn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 17:28:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] On Wednesday 11 December 2002 14:44, Richard wrote: > (if any readers of this list know of any books or > journal articles dealing with the etymology of Pelznickel, please let me > know). I didn't find anyhting for 'Pelznickel' but went off on a tangent with 'Pumpernickel'. Several etymologies claim that is "to break wind" + goblin, or 'devil's fart'. bob ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Ron, Surely the etymology for the Yiddish "shed" could be found instead in the Babylonian "sheddu." Yours, Fr Andreas Richard Turner. ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Sandy Fleming s: >Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". >Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes >from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) >room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Dit herinner my aan 'n woord in Afrikaans, "nikker", wat ook "duiwel" kan beteken. In Nederlands is "nikker" egter 'n diskriminerende benaming vir 'n swart persoon, maar ek vermoed dat di Nederlandse vorm 'n vorm van "neger" is. Groetnis, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca: > If pelznikel relates to goblins in some dialects - could it relate to pilz? > Some mushrooms - such as amanita muscaria - are extremely hallucinogenic - > when not actually lethal. I gather reindeer eat them in Lapland and > Lapplanders make fun of the antics of these "stoned" reindeer. I have also > heard that "petit chaperon rouge" - Little Red Riding Hood - is a secret > name for the same mushroom. Could we be bumping into some pre-Christian > plan worship lore disguised in fairy tales? Even though I still prefer the theory that this _Pelz_ in _Pelznickel_ refers to "fur" rather than to "mushroom" (because _Pelznickel_ mummers wear shaggy fur suits (looking like Bigfoot or the Yeti), and Standard German _Pilz_ 'mushroom' tends to have equivalents like _Schwammerl_ in Bayuvarian German dialects, thus "little sponge"), I can confirm that hallucinogenic mushrooms used to be ingested in pre-Christian religious circles (also after introduction of Christianity). You will find this sort of information in cultural anthopological literature, and I guess there are reasons why it is not disseminated in the popular media. In many religious practices the world over -- particularly well known with regard to Africa, Siberia, and the Americas, also South Asia, Central Asia and Korea -- altered (supposedly heightened) states of consciousness are sought, sometimes only by the shaman (who mediates between this world and another, heals and "channels" spirits of the deceased), oftentimes by select groups of participants or indeed all participants. This was (and is) clearly the case in various indigenous religions of Europe as well. Commonly used methods (used by themselves of in combinations) of achieving altered states of consciousness are as follows: * entrancing music/percussion and/or dancing, or simply repetitive movements, such as bowing or twirling (African, Afro-Caribbian, Siberian and American shamans, twirling continued by Islamic Mehlevi Sufi dervishes) * physical hardship ("approaching the brink of death"); e.g., ... - pain to a level of semi-consciousness, trance or unconsciousness (e.g., certain self-imposed practices of Hindu Sadhus, Lakota youths hanging from hooks piercing their flesh, perhaps continued in some forms of penitence practices by Christian monks and in Spanish and Filipino Easter processions) - extreme exhaustion and/or sleep deprivation (as in Native American vision quests and certain self-imposed practices of Hindu Sadhus) - exposure to extreme temperature (as in Native American vision quests, and in Siberian and American sweat lodges [probably also the origin of the sauna]) * ingestion of mind-altering substances; e.g., - ingesting alcohol (by way of fermented fruit or brews) - inhaling smoke from tobacco or other herbs (as in Native American pipe rituals [which are rarely performed; thus tobacco has the first-time smoker effect]) - ingesting plants with halucinogenic properties (commonly herbs and roots, also mushrooms [e.g., American peyote (_Lophophora williamsii_)], including mushrooms that would have lethal effects if taken in larger quantities, in Europe especially the "magic mushroom," the red-capped fly agaric [_Amanita muscaria_, German _Fliegenpilz_, _Narrenschwamm_, Dutch _vliegenzwam_, Danish _rød fluesvamp_, Norwegian _rød fluesopp_, Swedish _röd flugsvamp_, Finnish _punakärpässieni_, Estonian _Punane käärbseseen_, Hungarian _Légyölő galóca_, Polish _muchomor czerwony_, Russian _мухомор красный_, Turkish _sinek mantarı_, Spanish _falsa oronja_, _agárico pintado_, _oronja pintada_, _oronja matamoscas_, Portuguese _, Chinese 毒� �傘, Japanese ベニテングタケ]) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 18:05:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:05:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Hi, Ron. You prefer to maintain that _pelz_ in _Pelznickel_ indeed denotes 'fur'. As a frequent visitor of Austria and someone who is interested in particularly the Carinthian culture this makes perfect sense to me. In Tyrol as well as in Carinthia the 'Perchten' are men clad in fur, with big, horned snapping heads that chase people. They are said to scare off the bad winter spirits. Around Fassnacht (Fasching, Carneval) they haunt the streets in many towns. What is most striking is their fur and wild, beast-like appearance. Maybe the Pelznickel is in fact the same mythological figure. Regards, Marcel Bas. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Marcel, I believe that they are the same, that those _Perchten_ were originally members of the entourage of Frau Perchta (> Perchte) ~ Berchta ~ Bertha ~ Hertha ~ Ertha in the "Wild Hunt" in which during Yuletide human habitation is liberated from evil spirits. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 16:21:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.10 (05) [E/V] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Folklore > > In many religious practices the world over -- particularly well known with > regard to Africa, Siberia, and the Americas, also South Asia, Central Asia > and Korea -- altered (supposedly heightened) states of consciousness are > sought, sometimes only by the shaman (who mediates between this world and > another, heals and "channels" spirits of the deceased), oftentimes by > select > groups of participants or indeed all participants. This was (and is) > clearly the case in various indigenous religions of Europe as well. I seem to recall reading something recently suggesting that the Oracle at Delphi used an altered state of consciousness resulting from gases rising out of a fissure in the earth (connected with thermal/seismic activity such as a hot spring, if I recall correctly). The Greek word used in the New Testament for witchcraft or sorcery is "pharmakeia", from which we get the word "pharmacy", and which evidently referred to the use of herbs, either for potions or to achieve an altered state of consciousness. It also referred to medications. But this is starting to go far afield from Lowlands languages. Kevin Caldwell ---------- From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Hooi Aelemael, 'k heb stel intres in het naem van den Goddin die in standdaart Nederlands 'Frija' word, men die van de Noordse Goddin 'Freyja' wil zyn. Hoe gaet 't in Vest Valemstael? Kan ieman me enige informatie geven? 'k ben Prester in yenst aen de Goddin en vil het me viel plezier, als ieman wat me voortellen? Dank en maeg de Goddin Zy Ge zegendt. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:11:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:11:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at worldonline.co.za Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Haai almal, Marcel, ek ken die woord 'nikker' vir duiwel glad nie in Afrikaans nie. Dalk verwar jy dit met 'nikkerbol' - 'n ronde swart soethoutsmakende lekkergoed, of 'Niek' - wat wel die duiwel impliseer. Groete Elsie Zinsser =================================================== > Dit herinner my aan 'n woord in Afrikaans, "nikker", wat ook "duiwel" kan beteken. ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (04) [E] Ron, The connection that _Nickel_, _Niklaus_ and other mythological figures like the Tyrolean _Perchten_ seem to have throughout the Germanic Western European countries, reminded me of the _Kluse_ in Switzerland; ne of the most peculiar and beautiful events in the Alpine region that I can think of. It happens in the Swiss kanton of Appenzell. There the Kl use come into action on 'new' Silvester, December 31st, and on old Silvester according to the Julian calendar on the 13th of January, from dusk till deep in the night. If the date is on a Sunday, then the Kluse come the Saturday before. Houses and farms are being visited by these men in traditional costumes, wearing wooden masks. On their heads they wear a huge wooden hat with a wide square frame. The rimmed frame can be positioned vertically or horizontally. The big rim is adorned with mirrors, emroidered flowers and little scenes of farming life. On top of the horizontal hat there are dolls standing, who also symbolise farmers. The men are called _Silvesterkl use_ or _Silvschterchlause_ (Silvester = New Year's Eve)and after they they have been admitted to a house they will sing in the yard a "Jodellied" (known as _Z uerli_), a capella, with the three of them. They wear huge cowbells around their bodies, which chime when they mover from house to house, jumping and turing around. The bells are called _Schotteschelle_. There are three types of Kluse; there are the _w eschte_, the _schne_ and the _Wald-_ or _Naturkl use_. I have some recordings (on video and audio) of Kluse singing to a farmer's couple. Their singing is very clear and pure. On a videorecording a farmer's couple was so touched by the singing of a group (_Schuppel_) of _sch ne Kluse_ that they started crying. After the visit the Kl use receive a hot drink and they remain unidentified. This, or at least the name, should be related to all the aforesaid mythological figures of Nickel and the like. Regards, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Thanks for the description above, Marcel, which, although not Lowlandic, is quite interesting, since it fits into the general theme of "spirit cleansing" and mumming traditions that are specific to Yuletide. Also, the Alemannic words _Kluse_ (pl. _Klüse_ ~ _Klüsi_) and _Chlaus(e)_ (pl. _Chläuse_) must be related to _St. Nicolaus_, etc., considering also the name _Santichlaus_. A page with pictures: http://afro-data.com/heiner/char9801/char9801.htm A sample of a Chlause song (Chlause-Zäuerli): Brief: http://www.alpeblueme.ch/musik_s2.html Full: http://www.alpeblueme.ch/music/alpeblueme2.mp3 It is also important to consider that many of the Alpine regions, like all of France, much of Spain and Portugal, parts of Flanders and the Netherlands and, of course, the British Isles, have pre-Germanic Celtic roots, which are also found farther east along the Danube. Apart from this, most of these areas used to be Roman colonies. So it would be rather interesting to see if there are common features in Yuletide, mumming and Halloween traditions. As far as I know, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) region, like Scandinavia and much of the Frisian regions do not have Celtic strata (their pre-Germanic ethnicities being unknown), nor were they ever integrated into the Pax Romana (the Roman legions having been sent packing by the Germanic tribes that inhabited the then densely wooded parts of Europe). It would be interesting to look at major folkloristic differences in these two regions. Lowlanders, today is Friday the 13th, in many traditions an unauspicious date. This prompts me to ask what sorts of superstitions of this nature there are in the Lowlands, how far they are spread, etc. Bear in mind, though, that recent spread through the media ought to be discounted. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:13:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:13:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore > Lowlanders, today is Friday the 13th, in many traditions an unauspicious > date. This prompts me to ask what sorts of superstitions of this nature > there are in the Lowlands, how far they are spread, etc. Bear in mind, > though, that recent spread through the media ought to be discounted. Oops! That was supposed to be "inauspicious," of course. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:40:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:40:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.13 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: carmel bruggen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] pink is in het limburgs ook een kalf van een jaar oud, volgens mij niet alleen in het Limburgs, maar ook in het Nederlands Marcel Grubben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Welkom bij Lowlands-L, Marcel! Lowlanders, under "Folklore" I wrote about technics of inducing shamanist altered states of consciousness, and among other: > - ingesting plants with halucinogenic properties (commonly herbs and > roots, also mushrooms [e.g., American peyote (_Lophophora williamsii_)], > including mushrooms that would have lethal effects if taken in larger > quantities, in Europe especially the "magic mushroom," the red-capped > fly agaric [_Amanita muscaria_, German _Fliegenpilz_, _Narrenschwamm_, > Dutch _vliegenzwam_, Danish _rød fluesvamp_, Norwegian _rød > fluesopp_, Swedish _röd flugsvamp_, Finnish _punakärpässieni_, > Estonian _Punane käärbseseen_, Hungarian _Légyölő galóca_, > Polish _muchomor czerwony_, Russian _мухомор красный_, > Turkish _sinek mantarı_, Spanish _falsa oronja_, _agárico pintado_, > _oronja pintada_, _oronja matamoscas_, Portuguese _, Chinese 毒� �傘, > Japanese ベニテングタケ]) Incidentally, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) names for the mushroom are as follows: /fleig-n+stoul/ _fleygenstoul_ ~ _Flegenstohl_ ~ _Fleigenstauhl_ ("fly stool") /kreig-n+stoul/ _kreygenstoul_ ~ _Kregenstohl_ ~ _Kreigenstauhl_ ("? stool") /pog-n+stoul/ _poggenstoul_ ~ _Poggenstohl_ ~ _Poggenstauhl_ ("toad stool") I do not know the etymology of _Kregen..._. Does anyone else? _Poggenstohl_ ~ _Poggenstauhl_ is also a general word for 'mushroom', not only of poisonous mushroom (cf. English "toadstool") but indeed of *any* mushroom! Is this not also the case in Scots, where _puddock-stuil_ means both 'mushroom' and 'toadstool'? Might "toadstool" also be the original English word for both, while "mushroom" (< French _mousseron_) was introduced especially for edible mushrooms? Compare also Dutch _paddestoel_ and _zwam_, also W. Frisian _poddestoel_, for all types of mushrooms, a poisonous one being marked (_vergiftige paddestoel_, cf. German _Giftpilz_, LS _giftig Poggenstohl_ [_gift(ig)_ 'poison(ous)'], Plautdietsch _jeftje Pilskje_ [_jeft(ich)_ 'poison(ous)']). Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 18:14:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Estimado Ron (Rum) y demás aficionados de lenguas de países bajos, In 1946, when I was new in Puerto Rico, with one year of university, majoring in physics, I was bemused that we had speed limit signs in mph and cars with speedometers in mph, but all distances and "milestones," actually kilometer stones, left by the Spaniards in 1898 in kilometers. Kilometer stones are called "mojones," literally "wet ones," the identical word for "turds." Actually, we had one old International carry-all with the speedometer in kph and I delighted in showing visitors around,speeding around our cliffside curves as my victims thought it was mph they were enduring. At that time we bought milk in "litros," but they were actually quarts. Now rum (ron) and wine come in 750 ml. bottles. We buy gas in liters, but brag that our cars get 28 miles per gallon. I don't know who actually calculates that. And of course, soda pop in 2 l. bottles. But the real nitty-gritty is in machine parts, especially bolts, as we buy machines made in the US with Kawasaki engines, etc. I have machines with metric threads, but the heads are in the American "system," taking fractional inch size wrenches! Here's another goodie: I was brought up to believe that a 1/2 " bolt had a shaft diameter of 1/2", but some manuals describe a machine screw as a "13 mm bolt." Come to find out, this means that the bolthead takes a 13 mm wrench, but I haven't the foggiest what the shaft diameter or threads per inch, excuse me, it couldn't be per inch, or per meter or per millimeter. Per centimeter would be a poor choice. AAAAAgh! I'm sorry. There is a message to all my ranting. I do believe that eventually international matching and mixing will force the US to go metric and as yet I have no metric taps, dies or drills. ¡Válgame Dios! Jorge Potter from a confused island ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words ¡Hola, Jorge! Tú escribiste (arriba): > Estimado Ron (Rum) ... Ahora el hombre de la isla confusa me ha confundido... ¿Está "Rum" una palabra de la medida, la bebida alcohólica ("ron"), o es él relacionado a Rum, la parte europea de Turquía, y a Rumi, el gran maestro de los Sufis? Lo sospecho está la bebida. ¡Pero soy un te'-totaller (aunque el ron era realmente mi licor preferido en una de mis vidas anteriores)! Respeto amistoso, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:08:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:08:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.14 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.13 (03) [D/E] > From: carmel bruggen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] > > pink is in het limburgs ook een kalf van een jaar > oud, volgens mij niet > alleen in het Limburgs, maar ook in het Nederlands > > Marcel Grubben > ------------- reactie van Theo Homan: Ja, dat is mij bekend. Maar ik vermeldde het niet, om niet te oeverloos te worden. Bij woorden van onbekende afkomst [net als trouwens bij onderwerpen als folklore en zo] sta je al gauw tot je borstkas in het moeras. Bij pink = kalf heb ik wel eens verzonnen [als ik dus absoluut wil blijven bij pink = 5e vinger] dat je dan zou kunnen denken aan iets als: pink/kalf is een koebeest van 5 kwartalen oud. Het nederlands heeft trouwens nogal wat woorden met initiele p- waarvan de etymologie duister is. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Bil Hawkins Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] It was very curious to see "mojones" [wet ones] as a synonym for "turds"...I teach blind children how to use a white cane and mostly in Spanish, as living in Southern Arizona, many of my students are from Mexico and speak little or no English. I was writing "mojon/es" as "landmark" as it is listed in old dictionaries as such. I was severely chastized as that not being a suitable word to use on an educational plan. One of the old stories about that word is that when the Spanish Fleet in the late 1500's wrecked off the coast of Ireland, the survivors [the forebears of the BlackIrish] intermarried with the Gaelic catholic folk on the West coast. The boundary markers [cairns] also looked like turds to the Spanish and were called that by them. But remember that the Gaelic 'Pog ma thon" [pronouned mojon] became related to backside, or ass, or its product by metonomy. When Spanish filtered back to Spain a generation or two later with the word, it slipped into the language. I am sure "wet ones" is the more correct and authentic etiology but I've always liked the "pog ma thon" story. They say here the only difference between the Irish and the Mexican people are the booze: tequila vs whiskey...the religion is the same, the colours of the flag are the same...both have an antipathy to the English... Funny story. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:09:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:09:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge: There are consequences to living in a country that is next door to one that persists in using units of measurement that were designed in the dark ages. When I stayed at the Coast Inn of the North in Prince George, British Columbia, there was a parking lot to the rear with a rather low overhang. There was a sensibly sized sign giving the clearance in meters and a much larger sign giving the clearance in feet and inches. The latter obviously for the benefit of numbskull Americans who could not cope with the metric system. It is peculiar in this day and age to listen to news broadcasters giving the water flow of rivers in terms of acre-feet. Even stranger to have the size of things compared to football fields. Now here is something that may resonate with the American public in a way that the metric system apparently cannot. I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football field to replace the metric system. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:13:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:13:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Folklore > .....[deleted] > As far as I know, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > region, like Scandinavia > and much of the Frisian regions do not have Celtic > strata (their > pre-Germanic ethnicities being unknown), nor were > they ever integrated into > the Pax Romana (the Roman legions having been sent > packing by the Germanic > tribes that inhabited the then densely wooded parts > of Europe). It would be > interesting to look at major folkloristic > differences in these two regions. ... [deleted] ----------------- A personal note: It is my deepest conviction that Celtic and Germanic religion / rituals / folklore are pretty much the same. Not only in depth structure, but also surprisingly much in 'the-year-round-traditions'. We must not be confused by eg. the differences in names and stories of the catalogue of Celtic heroes and gods, compared with the Germanic 'religious' catalogue. In other words: I'm convinced that the Indo-European religious archetypes are shining through in both societies. [small note besides: The town of Lyon in France got its name from the Celtic god Lugden. The town of Leiden in The Netherlands got its name from the same Lugden: Lugden Batavorum]. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Haai Elsie, Jy wonder of my bewering dat die Afrikaanse woord _nikker_ 'duiwel' beteken, korrek is. Ek het vir bevestiging in die Handwoordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal (HAT) gesoek vir die woord en daar staan: "nikker - bose gees. Mv. 'nikkers'." Dus die betekenis is sowat dieselfde. Maar die woord _Niek_ vir 'duiwel' is darem ook interessant. Groetnis, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 23:13:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:13:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Hi, Can we please have that translated into soccerfield sizes?? Just to make it understandable for us Europeans? Wim. (wkv at home.nl wim verdoold zwolle netherlands) From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge: There are consequences to living in a country that is next door to one that persists in using units of measurement that were designed in the dark ages. When I stayed at the Coast Inn of the North in Prince George, British Columbia, there was a parking lot to the rear with a rather low overhang. There was a sensibly sized sign giving the clearance in meters and a much larger sign giving the clearance in feet and inches. The latter obviously for the benefit of numbskull Americans who could not cope with the metric system. It is peculiar in this day and age to listen to news broadcasters giving the water flow of rivers in terms of acre-feet. Even stranger to have the size of things compared to football fields. Now here is something that may resonate with the American public in a way that the metric system apparently cannot. I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football field to replace the metric system. Tom Byro ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Tom Byro wrote: > I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football > field to replace the metric system. Actually, I have always had my own little system to visualize - and explain to my children - multiples or fractions of a hundred grams, since 100g is the standard size for a German or Swiss chocolate bar (including Toblerone, Lindt and Ritter Sport, all of which are also available in the USA). Fifty grams is an abstract quantity for a child, but "half a chocolate bar" is something they are very familiar with. Speaking of vittles: from my years in the States, I am very familiar with recipes that use the units "teaspoon" and "tablespoon". I have seen them used in British recipes as well. But, the other day, I had to translate a British muffin recipe into German where the units were given as "teaspoons" and "dessert spoons", and that confused me no end. First of all, in Germany, a dessert spoon is the same as a teaspoon. Also, the recipe called for two dessert spoons each of sugar and honey, which seemed very little for 300 grams of flour. At the same time, it called for two dessert spoons of baking soda, in addition to the baking powder already used, which would have been way too much if it had been tablespoons. Also, salt and spices were measured in teaspoons. Unfortunately, I had no time to do some test baking, so I told the customer that I refused all responsibility for the outcome. Is there anyone who can clear up this confusion for me? How big a spoon does it take to eat Spotted Dick?? Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 17:29:35 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:29:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Wim Verdoold vroeg zich af: > Can we please have that translated into soccerfield sizes?? Just to > make it understandable for us Europeans? Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards bij 100 yards. Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen introduceert dus geen nieuwe eenheden ... Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is daarom on- geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen geldt: lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een voetbalveld zo'n 70% groter is dan een football field. Gustaaf ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Wim, Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are just too imprecise with the size of your soccer fields.... :) Stan > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > Hi, > > Can we please have that translated into soccerfield > sizes?? Just to > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > Wim. ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking on a little higher level? Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Hi, Ross, and welcome! No real anti-American stuff here, Ross, just poking, and Americans aren't the only victims. (Besides, they are in the majority on the list.) Serious stereotyping, haranguing and the like isn't permitted. "Higher level"? Whatever you mean, why not give it a shot and see if we're up to it? Cheers! Reinhard/Ron (Seattle, Washington, USA) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 08:31:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:31:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 08:35:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:35:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: Sorry - this is the full version of the previous. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung. Robert [Lantz] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 09:20:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:20:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: Sorry, folks, the mail system is playing tricks on me today ... RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung. Robert [Lantz] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 21:45:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:45:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (02) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Hi all! The similarities between Celtic and Germanic traditions and myths can stem from as many as four sources: 1. Celtic substrates in some areas 2. Common Indo-European origin eg the French river Indre - perhaps the same as the Hindu God Indra? Slavic ogni "fire" which they worshipped Sanskrit Hindu God Agni English ignite etc. 3. Earlier common origin - so called "universals" somewhat contentious 4. Borrowing from a common outside source - e.g. Middle Eastern material brought back by Crusaders a modern example is borrowing of words for new technologies or agreed coining from classical Greek roots (although German tries hard to coin based on German roots) certain words like "coffee" spread world wide with the new substance - while the word was localised it still seemed to be based on the Arabic root Gahwa/Qahwa (real Arabs - Bedouins - voice the initial consonant). Mind you Chai is tea in English (although chah is an ultra Brit rendering and tay is Anglo Irish. I can only think of one language - Polish - which doesn't use the Chinese root but calls tea "Herbata". The connection of reindeer with Christmas is another modern case of common borrowing from an outside source - nothing to do with substrates (or even Christianity for that matter) Similarity does not always mean a substrate! Cheers George ---------- From: RBlaustein at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Regarding the widespread distribution of St. Nicholas’ rough, frightening companions, Dr. Manfred Becker-Huberti provides a extensive though incomplete list of their names and locations:: <> (Source, "Nikolaus- Begleiter" copyrighted web page article by Dr. Manfred Becker-Huberti, Köln http://www.nikolaus-von-myra.de/brauchtum/nikolausbegleiter.html) Here is my content analysis of Dr, Becker-Huberti’s list. Though there are numerous gaps here, nonetheless some interesting patterns emerge: Etymology and Distribution of Names of St. Nicholas’ Harsh Companions Asche - =1 "ashes" + Klas (diminutive of Nicholas) (Westfalen, Norddeutschland) Batten = 1 "beating" +"manner "men" Bartl=2 " little beard"and/or "diminutive of Bartholemew" (Kärnten, Steiermark), Belzebub 1 "Biblical Hebrew baal zebub "Lord of The Flies" or German "Furry Lout Pelze+bub ? Biggesel 1 ? -Bock 1 "he-goat" cognate of Eng. "buck" + Pelze- (fur, furry" (Eifel und Mosel), Bõser "bad, evil" -Bercht 1 "devil" -Brecht 1 "devil" -Bub 2 "lout, ruffian" Buwe 1 "louts, ruffians," or Buhe "bogeymen"? Bull- =1 "bull" +kater "tom cat" Buller =1 ? Bur 1 = "rough guy, bursche? Buse 1 "bad, evil" Buze 1 "bad, evil" Butz 1 "bogeyman" butzmann (Schwaben), Dollochs 1 "Stabber?" Düsseli 1 "Dopey, Stupid" (Schweiz), Düvel 1 "Devil" Einspeiber, 1 ? Erbsbar 1 "Hereditary Bear" or "Pea Bear"? (Gurktal, Österreich) Hans = 2 "German nickname for Old Nick" + Muff "Stink" and Trapp, family name ; of 16th century Palatine military officer who terrorized peasants, becoming a bogeyman (Kinderschreck) and harsh companion of St. Nicholas". (Pfalz), Heiliger 1 "holy" + Mann "man" Gangerln 1 ? Kasperchen 1 "little Casper" :+ Schwartz- :"black" Kehraus 1 ? Klas =6 diminutive of Nicholas Klaubauf 1 ? (Bayern), Klaus=3 diminutive of Nicholas Klause 1 diminutive of Nicholas Klosen 1 ? diminutive of Nicholas Klausenpicker 1 ? Klomb 1 ? + Sack "sack" Knatsch 1? + Zink- Krampus 1 ? (Österreich), Leutfresser 1 "Cannibal – People-Eater" (Ostalpen) -männeken 1 "little man " +Klaus Muff 2 "Stink" (muffig"?) Nikolo 1 diminutive of Nicholas -nickel 1 "little devil, diminutive of Nicholas, Nick" + Pelz- (Pfalz und Saar) Partl 1 "little beard" (Kärnten, Steiermark), Pelz, = 3 "fur, furry" (Eifel und Mosel, Baden, Pfalz und Saar), Pelzebub 1 (Baden), 1 "Biblical Hebrew baal zebub "Lord of The Flies" or German "Furry Lout" Pelze+bub ? Perchten 1 "devils" + Schlacht- (fighting, beating) Pere Fouettard 1 "Father Beater" (France) -Precht 1 "devil" + Ru- raue "raw, harsh" (found in all German-speaking lands). Pulter 1 "noisy, rowdy" polter" + -Klas (Diethmarschen) Rollebuwe 1 "Rolling Knavea" rolle+bube" or Roving Bogeymen "Relle-Buhe? Ru - 1 "raw, harsh raue"+ Klas (Mecklenburg) Rumpel 1 "rumbling") + Klas (Allgäu) Rup 1 "grumpy" + sack "sack, bag" (Mecklenburg) Ruprecht "raw, harsh"+ "devil" + Knecht (farmhand, servant) (found in all German-speaking lands) - Sack 2 "sack" Rup- "grumpy " and klomb ? Schiacht- 1 "beating, fighting" +perchten :"devils" (Salzburger Land), Schmutzli, 1 "flithy, dirty" (Schweiz), Schwartz 1 :"black" + Kasperin "Little Black Casper" Semper 1 ? Spitzbartel "short beard - "goatee" Zink 2 "saint sankt ?" + Muff stink? and Knatsch ? (Niederrhein) Zwarte Piet, 1 "Black +Pete"( Swarte Piet, Pietermann) (Niederlande) What do these characters share in common? A detailed composite portrait of St. Nicholas’ rough, demonic companions emerges from listing their most common names and characteristics in order of frequency: Major Attributes of St. Nicholas’ Harsh Companions Diminutive of Nicholas 12 (nickel 1 Pfalz und Saar) Devil 7 Little 6 Bad, Evil 3 Black 3 Fur, Furry 3 (Eifel und Mosel, Baden, Pfalz und Saar), Raw., Harsh 3 Short Beard, Little Beard, Goatee 3 (diminutive of Bartholomew) Ashes, Dirty 2 Beating 2 Bogeyman 2 Hans 2 (German nickname for Old Nick) Sack 2 Stinky 2 As Ron has already noted, names for these characters beginning with Pelz/Belz (fur, furry) are concentrated in the Rhine Valley of southwestern Germany. Folklorist Alfred L. Shoemakers states in Christmas In Pennsylvania: A Folk-Cultural Study (1959; reissued 1999 with foreword and afterword by Don Yoder) that the Pennsylvania German custom of Belsnickling originated in the Rhineland and that it is historically associated with the so-called "Gay Dutch" gemütlich Reformed and Lutheran churches, who festively celebrated Christmas, unlike the puritanical "Plain Dutch" (Amish, Mennonites). (xiii). Henry Harbaugh (1817-1867), a minister of the Reformed Church and author of Star Of Bethelem: A Christmas Story For Good Children (1862), vividly describes the Pelznickel in early nineteenth rural Pennsylvania German Christmas festivities: O kennscht du den wieschde, den gaschtische Mann? Hu! Darf mer den Kall en Mensch heesse? Ya, ass er en Mensch iss maag glaawe wer kann, Er guckt mir zu viel wie der Beese! "Seh yuscht mol sei Aage, sei Naas---alle Welt! Er dutt's Maul uff un zu wie die Scheere; En Schwans wie'n Ochs, ys, des hot er, gelt? Un en haaricher Bels wie die Baere. "Kummt der in dei Haus, dann gebt's Laerme genunk, Er sucht die nixnutziche Kinder! Un finnt er eens, geht er uff eemol zum Punkt, Un dengelt gaar bummrisch die Sinder. "Er schtellt sich do hie mit der farchbaare Ruud, Un brummelt sei drohende Reede; Do waare die Kinner uff eemol arrig gut Un fange recht hefdich aa beede! "Waar eens, wie's manchmol der Fall iss, recht knitz; Wollt die Fitz der Mudder verschpettle; Ich wett, es lacht net vor der Belsnickelfitz--- Es dutt um gut Wedder gschwinnt bettle. "Nau schiddelt der Belsnickel grausam sei Sack, Raus falle die Kuche un Keschde; Wer gut iss, kann lese; wer schlecht iss, dann wack! Des schmiert er mit Fitzeel zum Beschde. "Vum Belsnickel hawwich nau ebbe gelannt, Des waer ich aa nie net vergesse: Noochdem dass mer seeht, watt eem aa in die Aernt Die Frucht vum seim Waerk ausgemesse!" "Oh, do you know that ugly, that nasty man? Wow! Can you call that fellow a human being? Yes, that he is a human, may be believed by whomever wants to, He looks to me too much like the devil! "Just look at his eyes, his nose---wow! He opens and closes his mouth like shears; A tail like an ox, yes, that he has, right? And a hairy pelt like the bears. "If he comes into your house, there'll be noise enough, He seeks out the bad children! And if he finds one, he get right to the point, And beats, very badly, the sinners. "He stands there with that terrible whip, And grumbles his threatening speech; The children suddenly become very good And begin to pray mightily! "If one of them, as is sometimes the case, was right mischievous; Wanted to mock his mother's whip; I bet he won't laugh at Belsnickel's whip--- He quickly begs for good weather. "Now Belsnickel shakes his bag terribly, Out fall the cakes and chestnuts; Whoever is good can pick them up; whoever is bad, then whack! He flogs him thoroughly." From the Belsnickel I have now learned something, I will never forget it: After you sow, then in the harvest The fruit of your work is meted out! (Source: The Pennsylvania German Society --- Pennsylvania German Dialect http://www.pgs.org/dialect/12_16_99.asp) (Excerpted from Professor. Earl C. Haag's Pennsylvania German Column, Es Neinuhr Schtick, which appears weekly in several Schuylkill County community newspapers, The Call, The Press-Herald and the West Schuylkill Herald.. Recently retired, Professor Haag served as Associate Professor of German and English Composition at the Pennsylvania State University, Schuylkill Campus. Author of A Pennsylvania German Reader and Grammar (1982), he edited A Pennsylvania German Anthology (1988), and compiled the recently-published One Hundred Years: An Index of Publications of The Pennsylvania German Society.) Happy holidays, everyone! All the best, Richard Blaustein ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Thanks for your interesting contributions (above), George and Richard. I suppose that folk etymology as genesis or reinforcement of some folkloristic features is a possibility, where foreign words or names came to be reanalyzed on the basis of native names and words; e.g., Hebrew _be`el z(e)Hûbh_ ("fly master", "lord of the flies" = taboo replacement for _sheytân_ 'Satan') > Greek _beelzeboub_ > German _Belzebub_ ['bEltz at bu(:)p], perhaps misinterpreted to contain German _Pelz_ [pElts] (also _Belz_ in some dialects, due to southern /b/ and /p/ variation) 'fur', '(animal's) coat' and _Bub_ [bu(:)p] ~ _Bube_ ['bu:b@] '(naughty) boy', 'lout' (etymologically linked with English _babe_ and _baby_). Something like this could apply also in the case of _Nikolaos_ and *_nik(l)_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Dag s aan al die Laelanders On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:13:22 -0800 Marcel Bas wrote: > > > From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com > Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] > > Haai Elsie, > > Jy wonder of my bewering dat die Afrikaanse woord > _nikker_ 'duiwel' > beteken, korrek is. Ek het vir bevestiging in die > Handwoordeboek van die > Afrikaanse Taal (HAT) gesoek vir die woord en daar staan: > "nikker - bose > gees. Mv. 'nikkers'." Dus die betekenis is sowat > dieselfde. > Maar die woord _Niek_ vir 'duiwel' is darem ook > interessant. > > Groetnis, Marcel. > > This made me go to various dictionaries - The Readers Digest Afrikaans/English dictionary gives - nikker - a nix, water-elf, fiend. I must admit I had never heard of the word -miskien is dit 'n boekwoord of 'n folklore woord wat allenlik in akademiese geskrifte voorkom. Nix is given back as - 'n manlike water-gees en "nixie" of "nixy" as 'n vroulike watergees of nikse. Dit wil voorkom dat die "nik" in verskeie vorms opkom en as bose geeste deel van die Duiwel se vogelinge beskou word of selfs die Duiwel kan beteken. John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 21:55:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:55:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] At 12:31 AM 12/16/02 -0800, Ross May wrote: > First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their >system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred >that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took >measures that tried to force this. Actually, the result was a creole, unintelligible to speakers of either source language within a few generations. > But the citizenry will speak the >language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to >use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. If it was up to the people of Canada, there never would have been a change here, either. It's another case of the government choosing the minority position for the good of the majority. Most people here now are either in favour of the "new" system, or are at least accepting of it. It's also another case of the benefits of the parliamentary system of government, which gives the governing party far more power than in the American system, so things like the metric system and universal single payer health care systems can be mandated despite opposition from various interest groups which benefit from the status quo. >From: Joe Stromberg >Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > >So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption >of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, >we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs >are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize >their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place >anyway. Actually, we're happy you don't adopt it, because it gives the rest of us a competitive edge in world markets. Ever check your trade deficit figures recently? >If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is >quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they >have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been >forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for >everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there >is no need to discuss that disaster here. One very, very rarely sees both systems. Canada decided to leave most building materials in Imperial measure, since we ship a lot of plywood and other building materials to the States and less overseas. Plus there's the issue of retrofit, since all existing buildings were put up before metric. However, bricks and blocks and carpet and a few other things are all metric now. >There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it >is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric >system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? This is like the seatbelt argument. Unfortunately those who think that no one should be forced to wear a seatbelt are never in favour of those who don't wear them paying solely for all the extra medical and social costs caused by those who don't. As long as I have to bear part of the cost of people not wearing seatbelts, or smoking, for example, I think I should have a certain right to control this behavior. >American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative >reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the >world >speak the same language or profess the same religion. Really? You can't be serious. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 02:34:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:34:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: mesure Dear Lowlanders! Joe Stromberg asks if there is any reason why the US should adopt Metric. I can think of one reaon.. When the US citizens travels to other countries on business or pleasure ,they would better understand the values of goods and distances between cities or the heights of mountains..Of course Joe is right that Metric will never happen in the US unless it is legislated . In Canada metrication stalled when a far right government was elected,who had promised to kill it,but could or would not ...It's use is increasing slowly and will continue more quickly once the over 60 people are gone ... Enjoy the season....Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: bowman Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] At 12:31 AM 12/16/2002 -0800, Joe Stromberg wrote: >If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through >normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. There wasn't much of a market decision about the 750 ml 'fifth' of whisky. The BATF said, "Thou shalt" and the liquor and wine bottlers obeyed. [Robert Bowman] ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Ross May wrote: > ... But the citizenry will speak the > language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to > use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been > pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the > common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a > language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the > divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not > reflect the will of the many. Ross, I very much disagree. How can this archaic measuring system reflect "the will of many", since it is being FORCED on the American people by their own government? They can "push it" (?!) in schools all they want (which they actually don't!) as long as road signs and speedometers are still in miles, newscasters predict temperatures in Fahrenheit, gasoline is sold by the gallon, and, and, and... What CHANCE does an American have to actually use the metric system? I am European and lived in the USA for eight years; it is not like I ever had a choice which system I wanted to use. Using the metric system is simply not allowed as an option in day-to-day life. My children were even punished for trying to use metric units in school and made to mend their evil, un-American ways. You make it sound like the American people are exercising some kind of "freedom" by putting up with this herd of dinosaurs. This could not be farther from the truth. Unless, maybe, it is considered "patriotic" to stubbornly adhere to a system that requires you to measure 1/64 of an inch? I have a sinking feeling that this is exactly the case - in a country which has been built by humans from many nations, maybe it gives Americans an extra feeling of national identity (and a slight feeling of triumph over all those hapless immigrants who have to switch from a world-wide system that makes perfect sense to this relic of WASP superiority). By the way, an average man's foot is ten inches long at most - much shorter than twelve inches, or "one foot" (but then, we know about that male tendency to exaggerate...). And what about women's feet? They make up half the population. Respectfully, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:30:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:30:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ian James Parsley Subject: Measure Words Folk, May I be bold enough to suggest we are straying a little from the subject here?! (I know it has already been done in German, but presumably no one noticed!) I think there *is* a related issue here, namely that what is ostensibly merely a methodology for measuring things can become a cultural symbol, as suggested most recently by Gabriele. I think in both the UK and the US this is the case - the Customary Measures are used to illustrate difference and as a symbol of national identity in countries that are 'melting pots', and in the former case whose population feels its identity is 'under threat' from those 'nasty Europeans' (evidenced by the constant repetition of the idea the system is being forced on them 'by Brussels', where in fact the UK Government adopted it in 1965). To bring this back to the point, can Lowlanders think of any parallels used by the various speech communities on this list? Are there any cases of measuring systems (of time, length, weight or particularly currency) that are/were used as a cultural marker? Compliments of the Season, ===== ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Wasp Superiority". For shame, Pandora. Please close your box. First, I approve of the SAE system that we currently have. I am very comfortable with it. But "WASP" ! Do I detect a mite of resentment here? Let us see, "White" (must mean Caucasian), "Anglo-Saxon" (But, dear I am not Anglo-Saxon, I am of Celtic-Viking descent, with a little Croatian inserted. "Protestant", hmmmm........ I guess am at that, but I do think she protests too much! And your little foot, well, we could hav a "bitty-foot" of only eight inches (or centimeters of you wish). And, by the way, Gabby, I am eighth-generation American, with ancestors who fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, WWI, and WWII, Korea, and I myself fought in Viet-Nam, all for the right to use what we choose. Long-live the REAL Freedom of Choice! Greetings from the New World. ---------- From: bowman Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] At 06:34 PM 12/15/2002 -0800, Gabriele Kahn wrote: >By the way, an average man's foot is ten inches long at most - much shorter >than twelve inches, or "one foot" (but then, we know about that male >tendency to exaggerate...). Not being average, my foot is one foot long. Oddly enough, the 12 inch foot fits nicely into a size 12 shoe. Not a 45 or 46, whatever that may derive from. I have nothing against metrification (though I wish my vehicles were one system or the other, not a blend). However, there are many physical things which are based on English units. As someone pointed out, the building trades work in inches and feet. If a carpenter starts putting in joists on something other than 18" or 24" centers, suddenly none of the premanufactured parts will fit. So, do we call it 45.72 cm centers or some other odd measurement? Weights, speeds, and distances are relatively easy to change. It would take a generation before a '1/4 kilo' steak really meant much, but it could be done. Likewise, there isn't a big difference if I go down the road at 100 kph or 65 mph. Many things have already been metrified; its just that no one noticed. ----------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, I only got into this particular discussion because I got tired of hearing that ordinary Americans are backward for preferring a measurement system which works well enough for most purposes. Ed Alexander answers part of my post with To save time, I answer that I am quite serious. If I got into other points he has raised, I would have to mention Jewkes, Mises, Hayek, roads to serfdom.... Unless the moderators want a full-scale political debate, this might be a good place to stop. Much better to get back to the fate of the two Indo-European /e:/s in Gothic, as opposed to West Germanic. Moderately, Joe Stromberg, Auburn, Alabama ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge As to bolts it is even more complicated. Wrenches for Whitworth bolts are based on the stem diameter is fractional inches. The wrench for a 5/16 inch whitworth or the more fine BSF (British Standard Fine) reads 5/16" but measures between the jaws 9/16" (if you are lucky a 13 mm spanner would just fits). But if you are faced with a UNF, as used in car engines the world over, 5/16" needs a 1/2" spanner. (Hard experience of maintaining a 1961 Rover 100 for over 30 years, which uses BSF for chassis and body work, but UNF for the engine (or motor if you like)). Pieter Meester ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure words Hey Tom, I'm not a numbskulled American! I might be ignorant of a lot of things, but I also don't make direct attacks at other nationalities on this list. Pas op, wat je zegt! Vrede! Vrede! Vrede! I personally like the metric system. Het was drie grad s'morgens. And I have driven in Canada on occassions and had no problem with kilometers. Gabrielle, my foot is about 1 foot and I am about 6 foot tall, if that's average? (For Tom: I'm about 1.87 m - dig, dig, dig!) Kevin Browne ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] > Ross May wrote: > >> ... But the citizenry will speak the >> language that they choose to, just as the people of America have >> chosen to >> use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Dear Ross, I do not agree with that statement. I live next to the French border. All the Flemish people in France were obliged to speak French and they did,'t want to.The state punished everyone that spoke Flemish. But after more than 300 years, the French state won. Now there are just a few thousand left that still can speak Flemish. Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Folks, Obviously this is a volatile subject to some, lending itself to triggering expressions of resentment and accusations that may be more deeply rooted. All the more reason to make an effort to stay on the straight and narrow, to remember that this is an international forum consisting of individuals rather than of ethnic or national delegates or representatives, to refrain from name-calling (real or implied), to remember that one person's "stubbornness" and "arrogance" are the other person's "choice" and "prerogative", to remember that it will eventually all come out in the wash, and to file this one away under "V", as in "volatile" and _vive la différence_. Peace! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:33:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:33:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: etymology A couple of weeks ago Steve Brown asked why 'pinguin' was called 'Pikkewijne' in Afrikaans. Now in Dutch 17th century records I found written: pingewijn. Well, It's obvious. The dutch emigrants to South-Africa took also this word with them, and in Afrikaans they changed it, just as they did with [nearly] all dutch words, to make them more pronounceable. At your service. Vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:35:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:35:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language loyalty" 2002.12.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: Low German use Hallo to all, We all know that the Low German language is spoken in many foreign countries. What do think: How many people of your country can understand Low German? How many people of your country can read Low German? How many people of your country speak Low German? You can estimate it or if you know it more presisely tell it me by adding where you have the information from. Thanks for your help! Guëtgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! Klaus-Werner Kahl www.plattdeutsch.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:39:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:39:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable in some standard varieties (e.g., in Afrikaans in the Lowlands group). In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German), double negation may occur with _nich_ ([nIC]) ~ _ni_ ([nI]) ~_neet_ ([nE.It]) ~ _naait_ ([na.It]) ‘not’ if a phrase contains a negative pronoun or adverb, and this form of double negation is mandatory if negation is stressed; e.g., (1) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody talks with Elisabeth.’ (2) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt nich mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks not with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody does talk with Elisabeth.’ (3) Mit Lies’ wardt nie (nich) snackt. (“With Elizabeth is never (not) talked.” [impersonal passive]) ‘One doesn’t talk with Elizabeth.’ (4) Mit Lies’ wardt nie nich snackt. (“With Elizabeth is never not talked.” [impersonal passive])) ‘One doesn’t ever talk with Elizabeth.’ I suppose those of you who know Afrikaans or certain non-standard varieties of other Lowlands languages are familiar with this sort of structure and understand that using a second negative does not cancel/negate the other negative. (I was tempted to provide Afrikaans equivalents but decided to let others do so if they wish.) In Sorbian (~ Lusatian ~ "Wendish", a group of West Slavonic varieties now unique to Germany), including the two standard varieties, double negation and even triple negation is mandatory and does not lead to cancellation or double-cancellation; e.g., Standard Upper Sorbian: (5) Nichtó z Hilžu nihdy njerĕči. (“Nobody (~ no one) with Elizabeth never not-talks.”) (“Nobody doesn’t never not talk with Elizabeth.” = ungrammatical) (“Nobody never talks with Elizabeth.” = marginally substandard) ‘Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.’ In Lowlands Saxon this can be grammatical, albeit perhaps marginally so to some listeners: (6) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt nie nich mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks never not with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.’ [?] To me it “feels” emphatically negative (“nobody never ever ...”). To some listeners there may be emphatic cancellation here, though I am not sure: “There isn’t anybody that never talks with Elizabeth.” = “Everybody talks (~ does talk) with Elizabeth.” Probably constructions 1-4 above would be clearer, hence preferable. What do others think? How does this sort of thing play out in other Lowlands varieties? Thanks in advance. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 21:46:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:46:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] First of all, I'll have you all know that my husband's shoe size is an average 42 - that's a men's 11 or 12 in America. That's another one I never understood, by the way: different shoe sizes for men and women?! And his foot is exactly 25 centimeters long - ten inches, that is (I just measured - he was somewhat puzzled). Maybe it's just that men like to exaggerate the size of their feet - like the size of the fish they catch. ;-) Ross wrote: > And, by the way, Gabby, I am eighth-generation American, with > ancestors who fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, > WWI, and WWII, Korea, and I myself fought in Viet-Nam, all for the right to > use what we choose. Long-live the REAL Freedom of Choice! Yes, Ross, that exactly was my point - for those wars also represent a big part of the American "national identity", just like Thanksgiving, apple pie and the measuring system (and also counting generations, which Europeans seldom do since it would be rather pointless). It all comes as one big, all-included package. There seem to be no rational reasons for such an ecclectic mix of various non-decimal measuring systems. But I can fully understand how one would strive to keep it because it also means part of one's personal identity - something that has always been there, and that you've used all your life. It's probably comparable to changing over to the Euro - which to most people means a personal loss of sorts, since an integral part of their lives, their familiar national currency, has been taken from them. Fighting in Vietnam does not exactly sound like a choice to me, however, even if they made you believe it was for a good cause. This is a tragedy that happens again and again, all over the world. Never trust a government of any kind that feels the urge to TELL you that it's freedom you're enjoying. As to the REAL freedom of choice: Butterfly ballot!! I'm going to shut up now and stick to that good old Lower Saxon saying (to get this back on track): Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! Gabriele - please never, ever call me Gabby - Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 21:52:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:52:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] On the subject of double negatives: So Dale Brown is teaching his freshman English class about double negatives. In English, says Professor Brown, two consecutive negatives form a positive, for example when you say "He ain't got no class," you're really saying that he's a classy guy. And Professor Brown was saying that this situation prevails in many languages around the world, that two negatives often make a positive. But then he told his students that the converse was never true. He was absolutely sure that there was no instance in any language in which a double positive becomes a negative. And a skeptical freshman in the back row says, "Yeah, right!" Ron, I haven't been "on board" for several years, so if y'all already know this one, please don't post it. I thought it was just too good to miss. Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Mr Hahn spoke of double negatives. Thereby hangs a tale. In both American and British English, the double negative is considered both ungrammatical, unsymantical, and substandard. Be that so, and I am a teacher of English and speak, read, and write one other language, Farci (Persian). But that was not always so. Albert C. Baugh, in his History of the English Language, says that for a long time in the development of our language, the double negative was common, and usage was permitted. In fact, he states, it was used to make a stronger nagative. So Shakespeare could say, "Thou hast spoken no word all this while - nor understood none neither; I know not, nor I greatly care not; nor this is not my nose neither. First he denied you had in him no right; My father hath no child but I, nor none is like to have; Nor never none shall mistress be of it, save I alone." It is a pity, even though I will stipulate that it is symantically incorrect as well as grammatical, that we have lost so useful an intensive in the name of correctness. The double negative nowadays is considered low-class and uneducated, and is surely confined to the slightly educated. But every now and then, when I am addressing a folk music crowd, I love to fall into the colorful colloquial dialect of my Scotch-Irish ancestors (or Scots-Irish as it is said today), and use an expression such as, " I ain't got no haints in my house!" One thing that a student of language and even a professional should keep in mind is that the prescriptive grammar and syntax of today would not have flown more that two-hundred years ago. Language is a self-repairing animal, and will develop in its own direction, regardless of authorotative convention, and edicts. Surely, the only thing that authority can do to affect a language is to destroy it as exhibited by what has happened to Frisian and Gaelic and many other languages over the earth. By destroy, I mean kill. Gaelic is barely alive, has almost no change, as is Frisian. It can only be preserved in its present state unless its use is encouraged in Scotland and Ireland, as well as the Welsh. I wonder how many Brits still speak their native tongue other that the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Celts. Another subject I would love to talk about is substandard words, namely, "ain't". We know it stood for "something not". Does anyone know which two words are contracted. Is it "aye" and "not", or just what is it ? I know theories, but does anyone have a written example in some sort of literature or poetry? Something with the missing words used separately, or some such. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 00:52:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:52:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (05) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Please don't call me "Gabby" or words to that effect. Therefore I will not. Most of the statements which she made, I disagree with, both in fact and spirit, so I will not pursue that thread since I am to the right of Attilla the Hun and she, to the left of Trotsky. Sobeit. Oh, by the way, I understand Persian (Farsi) but not the language that she put at the bottom of the text. Exactly what did it say and in which language. It looks Germanic. I can read Old English, but only a few words of that text, and that I probably interpret incorrectly. But, getting back to the thread, I will try not to make any more side-trips, unless someone else decides to be a sharpshooter. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words All right then, folks. And now we're going to bury this hatchet, at least *on* the List. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] To Ian Parsley I am vaguely aware of archaic measuring systems retaining some usage in my village in Westphalia but I had little to do with them. For example, I recall land being measured in a unit called, I think, a Morgen, rather than a Hektar. My father had a Zollstock, which measured in units much larger than centimeters. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 00:57:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:57:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Polly Christensen Subject: Double negatives RE: mr. Ross' comments (below). I remember my father and his brother---two old Frisian Sylters---discussing an old childhood friend of theirs who had just died. My uncle said, "Ah, ja, Deshe. We will never see him, no more." Indeed, the double negative sometimes means a lot more. " In both American and British English, the double negative is considered both ungrammatical, unsymantical, and substandard. Be that so, and I am a teacher of English and speak, read, and write one other language, Farci (Persian). But that was not always so. Albert C. Baugh, in his History of the English Language, says that for a long time in the development of our language, the double negative was common, and usage was permitted. In fact, he states, it was used to make a stronger nagative. So Shakespeare could say, "Thou hast spoken no word all this while - nor understood none neither; I know not, nor I greatly care not; nor this is not my nose neither. First he denied you had in him no right; My father hath no child but I, nor none is like to have; Nor never none shall mistress be of it, save I alone." It is a pity, even though I will stipulate that it is symantically incorrect as well as grammatical, that we have lost so useful an intensive in the name of correctness. The double negative nowadays is considered low-class and uneducated, and is surely confined to the slightly educated. But every now and then, when I am addressing a folk music crowd, I love to fall into the colorful colloquial dialect of my Scotch-Irish ancestors (or Scots-Irish as it is said today), and use an expression such as, " I ain't got no haints in my house!" One thing that a student of language and even a professional should keep in mind is that the prescriptive grammar and syntax of today would not have flown more that two-hundred years ago. Language is a self-repairing animal, and will develop in its own direction, regardless of authorotative convention, and edicts. Surely, the only thing that authority can do to affect a language is to destroy it as exhibited by what has happened to Frisian and Gaelic and many other languages over the earth. By destroy, I mean kill. Gaelic is barely alive, has almost no change, as is Frisian. It can only be preserved in its present state unless its use is encouraged in Scotland and Ireland, as well as the Welsh. I wonder how many Brits still speak their native tongue other that the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Celts." -- Polly Christensen Senior Designer Publications and Creative Services University Communications University of Colorado-Boulder phone: 303.492.8087 fax: 303.492.7828 e-mail: polly.christensen at colorado.edu ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. I am very interested. [Harlan May] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:42:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:42:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] > > To Ian Parsley > > I am vaguely aware of archaic measuring systems retaining some usage in > my > village in Westphalia but I had little to do with them. For example, I > recall land being measured in a unit called, I think, a Morgen, rather > than > a Hektar. Thanks for the reminder! A great-uncle of mine always spoke about a "morgen" land too. I don't know how many square meters his "morgen" was. Another old unit I recall is "bunder". FWIW, my family (from that side) originates from Drenthe, in the Netherlands. Johan Thole ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] Ross wrote: > ...Oh, by the way, I > understand Persian (Farsi) but not the language that she put at the bottom > of the text. Exactly what did it say and in which language. It looks > Germanic. That was indeed Germanic - in fact it was plain old Lower Saxon, quoting a sign that is found in pubs throughout Northern Germany - designed to prevent brawls, I suppose: Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! meaning: Drink till you're drunk and eat till you're fat and just shut up about politics! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure words Gabriele wrote: Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! Oh no Gabriele! Always discuss politics and religion, because then we find out what people are really thinking, instead of just talking about the weather. (Maar ik vind het ook wel leuk over het weer te praten.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:45:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:45:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Dear All, I can generally subscribe to what Ron has said about double negative (DN henceforth). It seems the Western Germanic dialects show the double negative to be the norm, rather than a "low-status-corruption-something-or-other". I believe the "incrimination" of the DN to go back to renaissance grammarians and their successors, all educated in Latin. It was much taught as a "logical" (even described as such in my school days), almost "mathematical" language. It was held in high esteem and deemed to be superior to the vernaculars. If you base your grammatical ideal on a different language from the one you are describing, interference of this kind can happen. But DN is no more illogical that adjective inflections agreeing with noun inflections, or personal pronouns agreeing with personal verb forms. It`s a case of "doppelt gemoppelt hält besser". Additionally DN can take over intensifying functions as pointed out by yourself, Ron. Unfortunately I have erased the posting in which was stated that language can not really be influenced by a form of authority, be it academic or through Government. History has proved this to be wrong. Language can be very much influenced by an elite that will adhere to certain trends, that have been decided upon by those who consider themselves to be "superior" or somehow "grammatically enlightened". Your (whoever`s, sorry, don`t know) very own example from the Norman conquest shows the far reaching linguistic effect the use of Anglo-Norman by the elite had. Your right in that a language shift did not occur, neither was the structure of the language radically changed (change may have been excellerated a bit), but the effect it had on the vocabulary was profound. I also believe that if an elite, Latin educated, imposes its power and sense of being right on an educational programme, language can be changed. DN is just one of these enforced changes. Just look at the way dialect speech in general is being abandoned in many areas of Europe and the world. It goes back to the traditional view that dialect is an inferior way of speaking. If a sense of inadequacy is evoked in the people whose speech the "enlightened grammarian" wishes to correct, and an alternative is offered, this feeling of inadequacy is a powerful motor to spark change, whether in dialect speech in general or certain dialectal features. Oh, here`s one for Gabriele, I heard my cousin say the other day when I was trying to get something political out of him. He said: "Politics is like swapping deck-chairs on the Titanic". Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:48:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:48:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.17 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Theo Well not exactly so, I am afraid. I have never experienced difficulties in pronouncing Dutch after I was 2 years of age, so why should Dutchmen occupying the Cape colonies all of a sudden get difficulties in pronouncing their mother tongue? Perhaps they already had difficulties in pronouncing Dutch before they left the muddy Rhinemouth just because they were often not the upper class, Hollands speaking, people who send them on their tour. Not to forget many of them weren't even Hollanders but all kinds of "easterlings" with their various own dialects. Overigens las ik enige tijd geleden dat Zuid-Afrikaans pas zo sterk van het Nederlands ging afwijken na 1880, laten we zeggen de boerenoorlogen. Is dat ontstaan toen ze richting Transvaal trokken. Een punt van overweging is dat ze de Statenvertaling van 1639 nog steeds toegedaan waren en die is als geen ander document bepalend geweest voor de standaardisering van het Nederlands. Dus zolang ze in de meer geciviliseerde Kaapprovinicie woonden bepaalde dat de taal. Weet iemand hier meer van? Pieter Meester ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Pikkewyn zou onder het kopje 'volksetymologie' kunnen vallen. Een woord dat, mogelijk, afstamde van het Engelse woord 'pin-wing' klonk onzinnig in Nederlandse oren, dus werd een constructie ontwikkeld bestaande uit _pik(ke)_ en _wijn_. Een soortgelijk geval is _alo_ dat veranderde in _aalwyn_. Mogelijk is dit onder invloed van de bekendere woorden _aal_ en _wijn_ ontstaan, of onder invloed van de eigennaam _Halewijn_. Soortgelijk is het woord _leguaan_ dat in het Afrikaans _likkewaan_ is. Een heel aparte vorm is het Afrikaanse bijwoord _opsluit_ dat voortkomt uit het leenwoord _absoluut_. Er zijn nog legio voorbeelden van volksetymologie te noemen, waar ook het Nederlands veel voorbeelden van heeft. Groeten, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:50:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:50:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.17 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: (no subject) Hooi Aelemael, Ik heet Frija. ik ben prester in de Noordse Hedens traditie aen deze Goddin. ' k heb groet stel in het naem van den Goddin die in standdaart Nederlands 'Frija' wurd schrieven, men die in ouwd Noords de naem voor de Goddin, 'Freyja' wil zyn. Hoe maekt 't man in Vlaems? Kan ieman me enige informatie om deze wordt geven? 'k ben Prester in dienst aen de Goddin Frija van de Diessen (Freyja Vanadís) vil het me viel plezier als ieman wat me voortellen. Dank jullie al viel, in naem van Frija van den Diessen en maeg Zy Gy gezegendt. Gelukig Jultijd als de viel van het jaer kaert om. Heil aen Gy Zonna, Goddin van der zonn! De Groet Moeder, maeg zy wacht over julli alle. Frija ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:53:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:53:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (05) [E/LS/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Robert schreef: >>>Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung.<<< Jaa, Robert. Mi gaait dat ook so. Annersiids de wöör de bruukt warrn sünd jaa ook deel vun`e spraak, un waneer dat ene systeem dat annere verdrängen daait, den sün de wöör daar vöör ook weg. Dat is so as mid usen nijen geld. Seker köönt wi ook to een Euro, Mark, Pund, Schilling of sünst no wat seggen, wen wi dat schöner vindt. Daait avers nüms nich. So warrn düsse wöör ook mid de tiid vergeten. Wat dat systeem vun de maten anlangt, kümt dat doch daar op an, wo an sik de lüü went hebt. Dat "eenfachste", "logischste" systeem is doch jümmers dat wo een mid opwussen is, egaal woveel vingers een to`n aftellen bruukt, or nich? Dan ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Ross History in Europe learned that it took about one century to get metric on the continent. In the Netherlands initially forced by legislation by Napoleon and after 1813 by kings William I, II and III and still we use "pond" for half a kilo. So you must be patient (if you want them to go metric) but at the end of the day (in this case Century) they might, perhaps. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 16:07:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:07:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administativia" 2002.12.17 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last message on this subject (December 3), several people have joined us, and I would like to welcome each and every one of them. At the end of this message you will find a list of the their places of residence. I would also like to take this opportunity to stress once again how important it is that every subscriber be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm, provided in a few languages). During the past few days a few contributors demonstrated that they are not familiar with some of them, especially the following: a.. All exchanges must be in a courteous and friendly tone. a.. Personal communication should be conducted privately. a.. Keep discussions relevant. a.. Keep subjects separate. a.. Stick to the subject. a.. Edit quotes. a.. Give credit. a.. Identify yourself (i.e., provide your name in your postings)* * If you find someone's name in square brackets it means that I have added it as a reminder. If after a few of these reminders the omission persists I will ignore that person's submissions without warning and explanation. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:14:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administativia" 2002.12.17 (06) [E] Message-ID: This one got away too soon; here is the full list. Sorry - getting used to the program. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last message on this subject (December 3), several people have joined us, and I would like to welcome each and every one of them. At the end of this message you will find a list of the their places of residence. I would also like to take this opportunity to stress once again how important it is that every subscriber be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm, provided in a few languages). During the past few days a few contributors demonstrated that they are not familiar with some of them, especially the following: o All exchanges must be in a courteous and friendly tone. o Personal communication should be conducted privately. o Keep discussions relevant. o Keep subjects separate. o Stick to the subject. o Edit quotes. o Give credit. o Identify yourself (i.e., provide your name in your postings)* * If you find someone's name in square brackets it means that I have added it as a reminder. If after a few of these reminders the omission persists I will ignore that person's submissions without warning and explanation. Regards, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net New subscribers' places of residence: Argentina: Buenos Aires: Buenos Aires [1] Canada: British Columbia: Victoria [1] Quebec: Shawinigan [1] China: Taiwan: Taibei (Taipeh) [1] Germany: Hesse: Frankfurt [1] Lower Saxony: Wedemark [1] North-Rhine-Westphalia: Riesenbeck [1] Indonesia: Sumatera Utara: Medan [1] Netherlands: Zuid-Holland: Leiden [1] South Africa: Cape Province: Belleville [1] Cape Town [1] United Kingdom: England: Essex: Southend on Sea [1] Hampshire: Basingstoke [1] West Yorkshire: Huddersfield [1] Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Pitmedden [1] Lothians: Edinborough [1] South Lanarkshire: Glasgow [1] Wales: Maesteg [1] United States of America: California: Lost Angeles [1] Oakland [1] Indiana: Rushville [1] Kansas: Lawrence [2] Massachussetts: Boston [1] Michigan: Clinton Township [1] Northville [1] Mississippi: Gulfport [1] Missouri: Springfield [1] New York: Rochester [1] Salem [1] North Carolina: Sandford [1] South Carolina: St. George [1] Texas: Sugar Land [1] West Virginia: Oak Hill [1] ? [1] =================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:20:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:20:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (07) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] Hi Ron, I got no "submit" confirmation for this message, which was sent at the same time as my other one, so I'm resending it. Viele Grüße, Gabriele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Global Moose Translations" To: "Discussion list for Germanic Lowlands languages and cultures" Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] > > Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. > > I am very interested. > > Ross, > the example of the double positive was the exclamation at the end of the > little anecdote: "Yeah, right!" Those are two positives, and together they > express that the speaker does not believe what has been said, thus the > opposite of what "yeah" or "right" would have meant by themselves. Of > course, since this is conveyed merely by sarcasm, it's not really an > equivalent of two negatives cancelling each other out. Still, I like the > little story. > > Here's an example of a double negative used tongue-in-cheek by Wilhelm > Busch, the great Lower Saxon poet and painter (who wrote in both Platt and > High German): > > "Drum merk': bei Damen sollst du fein > gar niemals nicht ironisch sein!" > > ("So keep in mind - don't you never be ironic with the ladies"). > > Cheers, > Gabriele ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Speaking of double negatives: The following should count as a point in case; it is part of a request I just received from one of my translation customers: "We now need to review all your details and make sure they are all up to date and fill in any missing gaps we may have." Missing gaps? Well, if they aren't there, why fill them? I find it fascinating that the only way to "correctly" emphasize something negative is to add a string of positive attributes to only one negative one (as in "this is really, truly and most certainly a lie"). Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Daniel and others, While a bit tangential, it's funny to think that in fact, as far as I know, all the "children of Latin", the Romance Languages, flaunt their double negatives right and left! Stan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:22:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:22:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Hello Johan, One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the Münsterland area where we call it "Muorgen". Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! Klaus-Werner Kahl www.plattdeutsch.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:45:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:45:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] > Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. > I am very interested. Ross, the example of the double positive was the exclamation at the end of the little anecdote: "Yeah, right!" Those are two positives, and together they express that the speaker does not believe what has been said, thus the opposite of what "yeah" or "right" would have meant by themselves. Of course, since this is conveyed merely by sarcasm, it's not really an equivalent of two negatives cancelling each other out. Still, I like the little story. Here's an example of a double negative used tongue-in-cheek by Wilhelm Busch, the great Lower Saxon poet and painter (who wrote in both Platt and High German): "Drum merk': bei Damen sollst du fein gar niemals nicht ironisch sein!" ("So keep in mind - don't you never be ironic with the ladies"). Cheers, Gabriele ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:47:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:47:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (10) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > From: Klaus-Werner Kahl > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > > Hello Johan, > > One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the Münsterland area where > we > call it "Muorgen". Bedaankt veur oen antwoart! Noe weet ik allenig nich mear hoevölle morgens mien oald-oom had hef :-) Good goan, Johan Thole ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:48:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:48:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.17 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] Gabrielle stated that "Yeah, right", were double positives. Factually, this is correct. But, literally, it is what is known as "irony" or "ironic", that is a statement that is purposfully the reverse of what you actually mean. While the opposite, negatives, can be used for ironic purposes, i. e., "Well, I never........!" This almost acts as a "segway" (which is a coined word) to another thread, and which has always been an irritant to an English teacher and "linguist" such as I. That is, poor grammar or syntax in an effort to be correct. i.e. "I feel badly about that" in place of its correct "I feel bad about that". Others such as "aren't I ?" in place of "ain't I ?" (the "correct one" is much worse than the vulgar one". But that's a new thread. One gentleman almost quoted me when he inferred that I had stated that authority had no effect on language usage. Just the opposite in fact is true. While I stated that authority could not force usage as in the case of the Normans on the Anglo-Saxons, the structure stayed, but the vocabulary changed dramatically. The illiterate commoner and the literate nobility effect was to change the language into a new English, not a new Norman French. But the French speaking monks and prelates probably had more effect on the common speech, because THEY were the main source and mainstay of the written language, and later the spoken. The latinization of vocabulary by the Normans and their monks caused many good descriptive flexible Middle English words to become unused and eventually lost. The English language method of inflection for complicated, even abstract meanings was much more sophisticated then than now and many of the old forms have been lost or replaced by syntactical arrangement. The English language was a language of impact and clear thought, and still is if you take the weak latinization out. It is interesting to observe Churchill's famous address to the English people. It contains all English words except for one. "surrender". Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 00:52:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:52:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.17 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jim Krause Subject: A Curious English Contraction- This was touched upon briefly by Harlan Ross May when he wrote "Others such as 'aren't I ?' in place of 'ain't I ?' (the correct one is much worse than the vulgar one. But that's a new thread." This brings up a question that I have always had since I was in gradeschool. Why was ain't considered substandard English? Also, am I mistaken in my belief that ain't is a contraction of am not? It always appeared to me that ain't was a particularly useful word and it belonged in proper usage, such as "I ain't going Christmas shopping today." But it would be incorrectly used, following my logic in the sentence "You ain't going Christmas shopping today." Any thoughts? Jim Krause p.s. The closing "As Always, Your Obedient Servant" is a historical closing from the period of late 1700 through the mid-1800's. It was probably the most common closing used to end letters. Lewis and Clark both used this closing in many letters they penned just prior to the expedition. It shows the courtesy and respect used by people of the time. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:29:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:29:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: legislating language change When the mennonites left netherlad after the re-formation,ending up in a part of Poland which later became part of Prussia..They did not write their Friesian or whatever ,but communicated in Dutch.The official language of Prussia being German pressure was put on them to change their writing to German.So their church legislated their school teaching and religious written communication to be German which they adhered to to this day..In Russia they were often thought of as German and suffered the consequences. When Germany occupied their part of Russia in WW2 , she gave them German citizenship.. Cornelius Bergen ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:32:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:32:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.18 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: MEASURES + Etymology Voor wie het interesseert: Er is nu wat druk praatverkeer geweest over maten, metrieke stelsels, en dergelijke. Dit doet mij denken aan de etymologie van HUNEBED. Toevallig ben ik de enige die dat weet. Maar over 18 seconden niet meer. Hier gaat ie: HUNEBED betekent MASSAGRAF. Vanwege de connotatie met dit woord tegenwoordig moet je maar begrijpen: gemeenschapsgraf. BED komt van een Indo-Europees semeem dat 'graven' betekent. HUN betekent 'honderd' en dit woord had in het I-E nog niet het ERD-achtervoegsel, en zonder dit achtervoegsel is het ook in sommige Oudgermaanse talen nog overgeleverd. De Oudgermanen maakten van HUN 'hondERD' [ik vermoed vanwege de overgang van het 12-tallig stelsel naar het decimaal stelsel]. [Vertalers van IJslandse saga's hebben vaak niet door dat 'hundrad' meestal vertaald moet worden met '100', maar soms toch met '120']. [Mijn geheugen vertelt me dat de Krimgoten bij 'honderd' geen 'erd' achtervoegsel hadden]. In het I-E was 100 het hoogste getal [alle I-E talen maakten een eigen woord voor 1000], en '100' werd dan ook gebruikt voor 'heel veel'. Mijns inziens komt HUN / HON in deze betekenis bijvoorbeeld ondermeer ook voor in 'Hondsrug', zijnde een lange reeks droge zandplaten in een natte omgeving. HUNEBED is dus: graf van/voor velen, of zoals we al zeiden: gemeenschapsgraf. Voor mensen uit de I-E cultuur was een gemeenschapsgraf iets bijzonders, want de Indo-Europeers kenden individuele graven. Wel, dit is opgelost. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.17 (03) [D/E] Pieter en Marcel: Betreft pingewijn: ik zat te denken aan overname uit het frans, gezien de -ijn uitgang; en klaarblijkelijk werd de -g- uitgesproken. Scheepsverslaggevers waren wel talig. Ik ben benieuwd of toendertijd pingewijn [ook] gangbare volkstaal was. vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:36:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:36:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Couldn't resist an old joke about measurements. Here's the Canadian version: A Newfie (a Newfoundlander) goes and pays a visit to his cousin in Alberta who owns a large ranch. Cousin: Ya know, I can get up at dawn and drive all day and never come to the end of my property. Newfie: Tell me about it, bye. I used ta have a car like that, too. ---------- From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (10) [E/LS] van Heinrich Becker , woonplats Wedemark maar Mönsterlander van geborte, verschillene germaanse talen pratend... Hallo Johan, het is geen problem als je weet, hoeveel Hektar je old-oom gehad heeft. Moet je alleen maar met vier multiplizeerden. Veel geluk en Prettige Kerstdagen nar het mooie Drenthe. ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: history Reuben wrote: ___________________________ Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? ___________________________ This is because of the ancient Roman calendar. They introduced the calendar as we use it now, but there year started in May. That's why the tenth month was called December (just like September is called 'seventh', whereas it actually is OUR ninth month...). This is by the way also the reason why Februari has fewer days than other months, it was simply the last one left! Another nice anecdote: The month July and August both have 31 days, because emperor August didn't want HIS month to have fewer days than Caesar's one (July), so that's why they both have 31 days. This day was of course taken away from February. (the concept of 31 days - 30 days - 31 days etc. has something to do with the impossiblility to slice up the year into even pieces which also corresponded with the moon tide...) That's why February (again!) loses it's last day three out of four years. Before they introduced this last solution, the calendar had to be corrected every X years by Rome, in order to make it correspond to the moon tides again... But since this is hardly Lowlandic, I'm shutting up now! Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:38:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:38:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Nicholas Jordan Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] As regards "ain't", whether or not it's entirely relevant, it's interesting to notice that "ai" could stand for "am I", to which one can add the commonly-found contracted form of "not", "n't" -> "ain't". Perhaps it was a fashion of the time to do such things in word play, and this is one that's stuck. Perhaps worthy of research, since no-one seems to know for sure where this 'substandard feature' came from. Another theory would be solved quite simply by thinking about speakers' laziness. "Am I not", said at speed, is far more difficult than "ain't". Is it not possible that it is simply that the awkward 'm' dropped out for ease of speech, and that the 'a' shifted so's as not to produce an uncomfortable a->i progression, giving us an "ai" sound. Nick ---------- From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Double negatives Re: Double negatives and cultural elites Don't nobody here care nothin 'bout'at. Kevin McAuliff, Northwest Georgia ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:48:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:48:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language resources" Dear all, this is not strictly Lowlands, but might be of interest to those of you who are interested in German dialects in general: an on-line Swabian-into-English dictionary. While most entries are "serious", some are very funny, too - like the Swabian name for Zerberus: "Jenseitsdaggl" - the Dachshound of Beyond! http://members.aol.com/hgurski3/swabvoc.htm Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Resources Thanks for the resource tip (above), Gabriele (and note that I am one of few who make an effort to spell your name correctly). But why "German dialects in general"? We don't deal with German dialects, except marginally with Missingsch and other North German dialects that have Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") substrates or influences. If you have in mind Lowlands Saxon itself, well, it is a separate language, officially so for several years now. I know that some people in the Netherlands and Germany have missed the bus and still refer to it as _dialect_/_Dialekt_~_Mundart_. But *we* don't do so, do we? Perhaps you meant to say "Germanic varieties"? ;) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 17:58:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:58:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (05) [E] Heavens no, Ron, I'd never make myself guilty of such a crime - I am devastated that you should not put that past me. I said this was NOT strictly Lowlands, and to my knowledge, Swabian - unlike Lower Saxon, of course - is a dialect, not a separate language, unless someone as convincing as you comes and tells me otherwise. But, of course, just to stay on your good side (I haven't forgotten what you made St. Nikolaus do to me, and Christmas is near), I'll scratch the "d" word from my vocabulary entirely to prevent further misunderstandings. I have often wondered how many of the people who misspell my name secretly think that I'm the one who can't spell it... maybe it's time to make a public statement that "Gabriele", with one "l", is the standard German spelling of the name. I went by "Gabrielle" in the States, however, because the German pronunciation is a bit tough for foreigners, and it was the only way of avoiding the infamous "Gabby". It seems that, in general, English speakers are uncomfortable pronouncing German, Lower Saxon, Dutch or Scandinavian names that end in "-e", pronounced "-uh". They tend to overemphasize that last vowel in an effort to get it just right. Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:01:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:01:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ian James Parsley Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (03) [D/E] Mathieu, Of course you meant to write: Their year started in *March*, which is why December was the tenth month... ===== ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Measures When I was in grad school, I had a Japanese housemate. He asked where to shop for souveniers when he was about to return to Japan. I told him that whatever he bought would likely be of Asian manufacture, and his shopping trip confirmed it. I suggested American rulers, measuring cups and spoons, and the like. After conferring these gifts on friends and relatives, he reported to me that everyone was delighted with such exotic items. We all have our own take on things. Kevin McAuliff ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:04:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:04:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable in some standard varieties (e.g., in Afrikaans in the Lowlands group). In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German), double negation may occur with _nich_ ([nIC]) ~ _ni_ ([nI]) ~_neet_ ([nE.It]) ~ _naait_ ([na.It]) ‘not’ if a phrase contains a negative pronoun or adverb, and this form of double negation is mandatory if negation is stressed; e.g., (1) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody talks with Elisabeth.’ (2) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt nich mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks not with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody does talk with Elisabeth.’ (3) Mit Lies’ wardt nie (nich) snackt. (“With Elizabeth is never (not) talked.” [impersonal passive]) ‘One doesn’t talk with Elizabeth.’ (4) Mit Lies’ wardt nie nich snackt. (“With Elizabeth is never not talked.” [impersonal passive])) ‘One doesn’t ever talk with Elizabeth.’ I suppose those of you who know Afrikaans or certain non-standard varieties of other Lowlands languages are familiar with this sort of structure and understand that using a second negative does not cancel/negate the other negative. (I was tempted to provide Afrikaans equivalents but decided to let others do so if they wish.) In Sorbian (~ Lusatian ~ "Wendish", a group of West Slavonic varieties now unique to Germany), including the two standard varieties, double negation and even triple negation is mandatory and does not lead to cancellation or double-cancellation; e.g., Standard Upper Sorbian: (5) Nichtó z Hilžu nihdy njereci. (“Nobody (~ no one) with Elizabeth never not-talks.”) (“Nobody doesn’t never not talk with Elizabeth.” = ungrammatical) (“Nobody never talks with Elizabeth.” = marginally substandard) ‘Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.’ In Lowlands Saxon this can be grammatical, albeit perhaps marginally so to some listeners: (6) Nüms (~ keeneen) snackt nie nich mit Lies’. (“Nobody (~ no one) talks never not with Elizabeth.”) ‘Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.’ [?] To me it “feels” emphatically negative (“nobody never ever ...”). To some listeners there may be emphatic cancellation here, though I am not sure: “There isn’t anybody that never talks with Elizabeth.” = “Everybody talks (~ does talk) with Elizabeth.” Probably constructions 1-4 above would be clearer, hence preferable. What do others think? How does this sort of thing play out in other Lowlands varieties? Thanks in advance. Reinhard/Ron Dear Ron, We have some similar negations in West-Flemish: 't Ei mi da niemand nie gezeid (nobody said that to me). 'k En zeg 'et niet (I don't say it) Neên, gij eit mie dao nie gezien? Nink(no, you did'nt see me there? No i didn't) Gij en gaot dat niet zegg'n eneê? (You won't say that, don't you?) 'k Ei em dao nieverans nie geziene (I didn't see him anywhere) Ge ziet gij nie ziek neê? Nink (You are not sick? Yes I'm not) Kijkt ne keê o t'er geên gevaor niet en is.Nint(Look if there is no danger. No there isn't) Other words that strengthens the negative: nievers niet(nowhere) nooit niet(never) niemand niet(no one) geênszins niet (not at all) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:54:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:54:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: jpkrause Subject: Language Change "So their church legislated their school teaching and religious written communication to be German which they adhered to to this day." Cornelius Bergen Not quite. As a matter of fact, German has not been officially used in the U.S by Mennonite Church publications since the outbreak of WWI. . And being a product of Mennonite higher education I can assure you on personal experience that all of my classes were conducted in standard American English. And while I'm at it, Reuben Epp makes some rather critical observations regarding Mennonite usage of German in his book "The Story of Low German and Plautdietsch" I quote from p. 87 "Moelleken describes the High German of the Mennonites as a radical departure from standard German. He labels it 'Mennonitisches Standard-deutsch,' and thereafter refers to is at MSD at its best, and as 'Dummy High' at its most disfunctional." There is more, but I'll leave it up to the reader to investigat this further. Suffice it to say that I have heard all of Epp's examples in the slopbucket Deutsch spoken in central Kansas. We would be better off retaining our ancestral Plautdietsch. I say "we" because I am one of them. Jim Krause (probably should be Kruse) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:57:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:57:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (10) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] > From: Klaus-Werner Kahl > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > > Hello Johan, > > One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the Münsterland area > where we > call it "Muorgen". > > Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! > > Klaus-Werner Kahl > www.plattdeutsch.net Hallo ! "De tijd die een boer nodig heeft om een akker te ploegen is hier belangrijk. Als een boer heel de voormiddag nodig gehad heeft, dan is dat land een morgen groot. Dat kan dus variëren he! Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: measure words Ian James Parsley wrote: __________________________ Of course you meant to write: Their year started in *March*, which is why December was the tenth month... __________________________ Yes indeed! English is such a difficult language :-) It shows once again: never think ahead, always concentrate on the sentence you're writing... Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:58:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:58:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Syntax Ron wrote: > I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the > topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being > commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard > speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable > in some standard varieties Of course there is always the horrible example of '1980s' Dutch: "never nooit niet" I can also remember that the double/triple negation is considered by some as typical for eastern Brabantish dialects (southern Dutch): "hier gebeurt ok nooit niks nie" Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:59:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:59:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Syntax Ron wrote: > I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the > topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being > commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard > speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable > in some standard varieties Of course there is always the horrible example of '1980s' Dutch: "never nooit niet" I can also remember that the double/triple negation is considered by some as typical for eastern Brabantish dialects (southern Dutch): "hier gebeurt ok nooit niks nie" Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 22:58:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:58:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] I went to my Oxford English Dictionary (which is supposed to be the ultimate authority) and surprisingly it had very little to say about "ain't" except that it was dialectical and means "am not" or "are not" and gives "a'nt" as a variant spelling. It gives about three literary usages (text) dating back to the 1600's. I was surprised that such a common word got such little treatment, when a word such as "fix", gets about three full pages. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 19 15:33:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:33:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.19 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] I think that probably dialectical words such as "ain't" and others will never reveal their true origins because of the lack or written material of a dialectical nature. As most of you know, spelling during the 14th century wasn't exactly prescribed by any authority. Because the scriptures were religiously copied, that is down to the last letter under threat of blesphemy, and suffered no stylistic spelling, many think that there was some standard of spelling that came down to us. Well, I guess it was, but it was just the spelling that the translator decided to use. If you will note, in the Early Modern English of the translations that we call correct today, there are variants in syntax and grammatical choice. So, you could see right there that changes were ongoing, so many variants were considered permissible. One spelling variant that was seen painted on some old signs or engravings, was the use of "Ye". Now, this was not the pronoun "Ye", but actually a spelling of the article pronounced just as we pronounce it today. The word "The". It seems that during the time these names were established the letter "Y" was used for the "th" sound. So it mistakenly ends up today being pronounced the same as the pronoun "Ye". i.e, "Ye Olde Candy Shop". It doesn't translate "Your old candy shop", but "The old candy shop". But I am digressing here. Just thought some might like to pronounce these recreations of old inns in Britain and the U. S., the way they were intended, "the". There are as many correct early spellings as the mind of the writer wanted to fabricate. Would be nice today to legitimately originate your own spellings and coin you own words (like William Shakespeare did). But, come to think of it, my wife enjoys that practice today. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (08) [E] Hi Ron, In Leiden the negation _nooit geen_ (never no) for _nooit_ (never) is very common: "Ik krraig neujt geejn ^antwoorrd" (I never get no answer) and the English-inspired "Daarr hebbie toch never-nooit iets an" (that will never-never help you). It is possible that these double negations also occur in the the other urban dialects in the Randstad area, such as in the Rotterdam dialect. Now I have a question; in the Dutch province of Drenthe (where a Low Saxon dialect is spoken), in the town of Roden, I talked to a man who - to my surprise - applied the double negation the way it was familiar to me in Afrikaans. Attempting to speak Standard Dutch (ABN) he said: "Hij hoeft _niet_ veel te eten _niet_", repeating the negation at the end of every clause! Can anyone tell me if this double negation is normal in Drenthe? Best regards, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 19 16:38:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:38:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: re legislating language In my last mail I should have stated that "some" Mennonites churches adhere to the German language to this day...instead of saying that "they adhere to to this day" Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: Penny S. Tipper Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (09) [E] "'Moelleken describes the High German of the Mennonites as a radical departure from standard German. He labels it 'Mennonitisches Standard-deutsch,' and thereafter refers to is at MSD at its best, and as 'Dummy High' at its most disfunctional.' ... I have heard all of Epp's examples in the slopbucket Deutsch spoken in central Kansas. We would be better off retaining our ancestral Plautdietsch. I say "we" because I am one of them." - Jim Krause (probably should be Kruse) Just wondering about the term "slopbucket Deutsch" -- with languages constantly evolving, couldn't "MSD" eventually become an official language in its own right, deserving every bit of respect? Perhaps it's a different case in that it isn't anyone's mother tongue, but just the funny way you talk to your Prediger (just guessing here). I must say, as a long-time student of German and its all Adjektive-Endungen fun, my first impression of Dutch was, This must be some kind of sloppy, cheater-German. What about the sacred trinity of Der-Die-Das? What about that? De..het? I didn't get it. But as I delve deeper into Dutch, I'm getting to learn its special charm.. kennen. Ha! Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere. I've become interested in the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for it deal with what is spoken in Germany. I have, however, read reports that state the language is generally in great danger of extinction in all Mennonite communities in the Americas, except for those in South America. Is the same true in Germany? Either way, here's a website I came across, explaining, auf deutsch, many fascinating intricacies of the efficient "plattdüütsch" expression. I found to be a lot of fun: http://www.beepworld.de/members18/goldbuett/norddeutscheart.htm mfg, Penny S. Tipper (I hope I didn't mess up too bad on my first post!) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language policies Cornelius, it seems to me that the only difference between "conservative" Mennonite communities and other Protestant communities of what are now Northern Germany and the northern and eastern parts of the Netherlands is that the mentioned Mennonite church elders have not *changed* the language policies. The policies used to be the same, and Mennonites of "Western Prussia" had only adapted to what then was pretty much the law of the land (with little or no separation between church and state). In Northern Germany, "Low German" -- which includes the Saxon-derived dialects (the ones we here call "Low[lands] Saxon") as well as a small group of Low Frankish dialects that are closer to Limburgish but happen to be used on the German side of the German-Belgian-Netherlands border -- came to be pretty much outlawed in administration and churches, certainly by the early 18th century. Those for whom it was the native and only language would thus have to rely on the kindness of neighbors, administrators or pastors to help them understand what was going on "higher up." Those few children from poorer homes that did attend schools got their native language beaten out of them, also by pastors during confirmation lessons (and this well into the 20th century). Children from "better" homes usually were more exposed to "good" (i.e., "high") German and thus had an edge over their poorer classmates. "High" German thus came to be associated with higher status, refinement and anything "legitimate." This came to be adopted in churches, despite the fact that Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism, had expressly ordered translations and services in the language of the Saxons in Saxon lands, and that many or most parishioners did not fully understand scriptures and sermons in "High" German. (This also happened in Slavonic-speaking areas, such as in Zhorjelc/Görlitz, the then capital of Sorbian-speaking Lusatia, which consequetly quickly came to be lost to Lusatia.) I believe that things were pretty much the same in the Netherlands where "good Dutch" was shoved down the throats of non-Dutch speakers in a similar manner. Things changed in the late 19th century, certainly in the 20th century, when in the wake of alternative philosophies (including atheism) competing with Christianity many members of the Protestant (and to a degree Catholic) clergy began to rethink the church's language policy. They would first speak with their parishioners in the Saxon dialects in private, and little by little Saxon-speaking services or at least sermons came to be introduced, usually on an occasional or alternative basis and with a minimum of attention "higher up." Success soon convinced parishes and bishops that this was a beneficial strategy. (Even now, even many people who do not have Lowlands Saxon as their native language like to attend "Platt" services, especially during the Chrismas season.) However, by the time this was happening, most Mennonites (who descended from Frisians, Dutch, and Low Saxons [from both the Netherlands and Germany]) had already left their temporary homeland at the Vistula delta for "New Russia" (i.e., Ukraine) and for the "New World," and when this new movement in the West was gathering speed, many Mennonites had been shipped off to Siberia and Central Asia. In relative isolation some of their communities clung to the old attitude and policies according to which it would be offensive to God to be addressed in the supposedly coarse native language the parishioners. There are two special, remarkable phenomena in the case of Mennonites outside Germany: (1) While Saxon speakers in Germany have been constantly exposed to German and have been (directly or indirectly) forced to learn and use it to survive, Mennonites elsewhere were and are under no such obligation, being instead surrounded by speakers of Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Kyrghyz, Uzbek, English, Spanish or Portuguese. They thus carried German with them in addition to their native language, using and preserving their brand of German as what in Yiddish is known as _loshn koydesh_ (< Hebrew _lashon kodesh_ 'sacred tongue') with reference to Hebrew, using it only for religious purposes (including oratory). In contrast, ever since their land came under German and Dutch domination, to speakers of Lowlands Saxon in Germany and the Netherlands German and Dutch respectively have been the languages of authority, and organized religion is merely a part of this package. Besides, while secular authorities have proved to be anything but sympathetic and helpful to the survival struggle of minority languages (stalling and sabotaging European Charter ratification efforts even now that these languages been officially recognized under European Union pressure), some churches have been the only places of authority in which the language of the land has a place and gets some respect. (2) While I can understand why some Mennonite communities preserved this linguistic stratefication or compartmentalization, what really interests me is what provoked other communities to pretty much abandon German and use predominantly Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (_Plautdietsch_). Did they simply find it too burdensome to deal with German (the native language of none of them) in addition to their own and that of their new countries? Did they arrive at the conclusion independently that the language of the people ought also be the language of their churches, or were they inspired by others, such as other minority groups in their new countries or indeed by the movement in Germany? This movement in Northern Germany culminated in the foundation of Plattform "Plattdüütsch in de Kark", an association that advocates the use of "Platt" in churches: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/europe_religious.htm, http://www.zfn-ratzeburg.de/pd_in_de_kark.htm Lönsweg 28 D-29614 Salta/Soltau Germany Its long-time president, Hein(rich) Kröger (both a pastor and a professor), has studied the history of this movement and published his findings of which he recently sent me a copy: Kröger, Heinrich, _Plattdüütsch in de Kark in drei Jahrhunderten, Bd.1, 18. und 19. Jahrhundert_, Hannover: Luther Verlag, 1996, ISBN 3785907222 I think it would be very interesting to include Mennonite information in this sort of study. Penny, welcome to the List, neighbor (in this case "neighbour")! (I am in Seattle.) No, you did not mess up at all. Congratulations! You are one of few "newbies" who got everything right the first time. You asked: > Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon > Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is > identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of > Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere. I've become interested in > the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for it > deal with what is spoken in Germany. I can really only answer for myself. Coming from the angle of Northern Lowlands Saxon (Neddersassisch ~ Nedderdüütsch ~ Plattdüütsch) of Northern Germany I have hardly any problems understanding Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch). This is partly due to the reason that speakers of both LS and German in Germany are used to the "eastern shifts," such as g > j, ü > ie and ö > e, in both LS and German dialects (though younger Germans are not used to them as much as most displaced citizens from what are now Poland and Russia have passed away). The only two features that gave me minor problems at first were the shifts e > a, and a > au, strangely only in written form, not when I listened to the dialects (which may or may not be a red flag to show that there is an orthographic stumbling block). Another reason why Plautdietsch is relatively easy to understand for Germans is that it seems to have far more ("High") German loanwords than have the LS dialects of Germany (not to mention those of the Netherlands). Some years ago, I introduced Reuben Epp (Canada) and Clara Kramer-Freudenthal (Germany) to each other (via email). Tant Clara wrote to me saying that she had no problems understanding what Reuben wrote in Plautdietsch. I do not really know if communication was as easy when Reuben and Irmgard visited Clara and Heinz in Norderstedt. (Perhaps Reuben can tell us this.) As for Reuben, we ought not be surprised that he understands the other LS dialects very well, since he is very learned in this area and has been dealing with the language for a long time, being one of few who has dared to go beyond Plautdietsch to deal with the entire language (and he no doubt has profited from it). Some Plautdietsch speakers have told me that they have some problems reading LS dialects other than their own. This is clearly due to a lack of exposure and awareness of the sound shifts, as well as lack of familiarity with Saxon words that Plautdietsch has replaced with German (or Russian, English, Spanish or other) loans. I feel confident that continual exposure to each other's dialects will gradually remove these barriers. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:36:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:36:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Negatives and borrowings Hi again! The multiplication of negatives reminds me of a lovely line in a well known Scots and sometimes Irish folksong "The Wild Rover" the chorus of which goes: "No nay never - no nay never no more Will I play the wild rover No never no more." The Scots have lovely ways of being emphatic - as the recent paperback collection of maledictions "Awa and Bile Yer Heid" makes clear. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:38:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:38:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Negatives and borrowings By the way, Harlan, "segway" isn't a coined word! The word "segue" is just a straight Hollywood borrowing from Spanish meaning transition from its literal Spanish meaning "follows." For some reason it became popular among Hollywood gays of the "flamer" variety to pepper their speech with phrases from Spanish to prove they were trendy - (as they had been doing with French for decades if not centuries in England) and it spread from them through the movie industry - being picked up by scriptwriters, d.o.p.s (directors of photography) and from there into the general public. I find it fascinating that it is now so engrained that its origin in L.A.has been forgotten by people who don't work (or dabble as I do) in the movie business! People who still use a lot of "L.A. Spanish" this way are even parodied in some t.v. sitcoms as annoyingly pretentious characters. (e.g. "Michael" on the Newhart show) Feliz navidad Jorge (George) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:41:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:41:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.19 (01) [E] Meneer Rossmay, I think that maybe you are not entirely correct about saying that the leter «Y» was pronounced as «th» (usually represented foneticaly as «dh»), but rather that the leter «þ», was mistaken for «y». the leter «þ», had become obsolete. From that which I have read, that seems to be the origin of the «ye» about which you refer. Blij Zonwende! [Frija van den Haagediessen] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 22:00:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:00:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (02) [E] Dear (Tocayo) Jorge Gibault and other Lowlanders, I have no idea of just how "segway" got to L.A., but "segue"--pronounce the u like w--is Italian. Spanish is "sigue"--don't pronounce the u. They both are third singular, meaning "follows." Present indicative of Italian seguire: (Always pronounce the "u.") seguo segui segue seguiamo seguite seguono Present indicative Spanish seguir--never pronounce the "u." sigo sigues sigue seguimos seguís siguen Bye from PR (Tocayo) Jorge Potter > By the way, Harlan, "segway" isn't a coined word! The word "segue" is just > a straight Hollywood borrowing from Spanish meaning transition from its > literal Spanish meaning "follows." For some reason it became popular among > Hollywood gays of the "flamer" variety to pepper their speech with phrases > from Spanish to prove they were trendy - (as they had been doing with > French for decades if not centuries in England) and it spread from them > through the movie industry - being picked up by scriptwriters, d.o.p.s > (directors of photography) and from there into the general public. I find > it fascinating that it is now so engrained that its origin in L.A.has been > forgotten by people who don't work (or dabble as I do) in the movie > business! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 22:02:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:02:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (03) [D/E] Madam Christine has used a complicated analysis, which I did not seek to do, to say the same thing that I said in common tongue. That is, that "Ye Old Ale House" is pronounced "The Old Ale House" and not the archaic "Ye" (a pronoun) of the Bible which most English speaking people use. You are a fine philologist, Christine as opposed to me, an ordinary "linguist". My hat is off to you. I was also corrected on "Segway" and since I had only heard it vocally, I spelled it the way it sounds, ( definitely a new English word now ) and spelled that way by the uninformed of ther eastern parts of the country, where it only recently filtered as an expression. I stand corrected. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 05:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (05) [E] I thank Meneer RossMay, for his compliment. That was a courteoous thing to do. With respect to the word «segway» and wherefrom it came, I do not know not at all, Never have I known naught of nothing , of the exact origins of «segway», but perhaps from the illustratie given was it actually of Italiaans origin, since the pronounciation and spelling are suggestive thereof. Wad þink others on this? ;^) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 21:04:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:04:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Richard Creel Subject: segue, etc. Discussing the use of "segue" in the US is not worth the effort. For those of you who know Spanish, el empleo de dicho termino no pasa de ser pura guarangada, y chau. Richard Nash Creel, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 23:39:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:39:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (02) [Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Gracias al buen Señor Nash, por su avis. Es múy amable de el nos elucidar tanto. Evidamente le necesitabamos. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 23:46:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:46:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.23 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: xmas Hi, Ron, and all of You, wish You merry Christmas and cheerful going-on in LL-L. I'm hoping for a soon comeback in Your funny, amazing and yet often serious circle. Very best regards Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." "Iced Earth" (originally W.S., Macbeth) ---------- From: andrew waterhouse Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Greetings folks, My name is Andrew. I live in England, UK (near nottingham/Loughborough for those who know the place! I'm not sure if I will be able to contribute to this list, but I think it is very interesting. i have an interest in learning Old (AS) English. I'm pretty poor at it truth be told - but one can only learn!! I remember a post on another list just a month or so ago where a guy found that a frisian speaker could understand his Old English - pretty easily! I would like to comment on negations and other stuff - but need to consult my books first - and that means after Christmas. Til then, Glæd Geol 7 Gesælig Niw Gear eallum mannum þisses geferscipes! Andrew ps No hablo muchos espagnol ala, Milates licho Elenekas! ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings Wæs þu, Andreas, hal! Wæs þu gesund and wilcuma tô ure hrædærendgewritlîsta! Raginhard, êower Seaxan lǽdare and frêond Fiete, moie Wiehnachten ook an Di un Dien Lüüd’. Kaam man gau trügg! Reinhard/Ron Happy Holidays to all! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 03:13:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:13:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.23 (04) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: Double negatives Hello all Lowlanders, I really enjoyed the contributions of Marcel and Luc on the use of double negatives in West Flemish and other members of the Lowlands language group. Afrikaans follows Flemish closely as I have heard the equivelent expressions frequently. In Afrikaans we have the use of a positive and negative which can sometimes carry a deep emotional content. Ja nee ou swaer dit is werklik 'n groot verlies. Literally: yes no old brother-in-law it is truly a great loss. In colloquial use "swaer" does not necessarily mean your actual Brother-in-law but just a close friend. "Ou" does not necessarily mean an aged person but could be someone known for a long time. The question is -what does one term a positive negative? A "nul" perhaps:)? and do any of the lowland languages have anything resembling this? In our dialect of English we also have some strange usages but I'll come back to that after the holidays. 'n merrie krismis en 'n hings nuwe jaar 'n koei vendusie en 'n bul basaar. Just kidding so I shall say it properly 'n Geseënde Kersfees en 'n voorspoedige nuwejaar aan almal. John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 03:58:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:58:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.23 (05) [Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (02) [Spanish] Senor Nash, Felice Navidad ! Muy Importante! [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings Amigos y amigas, Porque esto es una período festivo para muchos de nosotros, es permitido fijar simplemente saludos a la lista. Sin embargo, considere por favor que en situaciones normales necesitamos limitar nuestras actividades a los intercambios de información relevante, más allá de intercambios de las sutilezas que pertenecen a las conversaciones privadas. No debemos tratar este foro pues un chatroom con las charlas "frívolas". Explicaré (en inglés) esto con más detalle en mi mensaje administrativo siguiente. Hasta entonces mí le agradezco por adelantado por su cooperación y paciencia. ¡Feliz Navidad y recuerdos sentidos por el Año Nuevo a todos mis amigos hispánicos y a los otros que pueden leer la lengua castellana -- sobretodo respecto, amor y paz por todas partes en nuestro planeta pequeño! Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Fundador y administrador de Lowlands-L ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 16:00:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:00:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.24 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: Gnaodenrike Winachtsdage un een glüksiälig ni Jaor Dat Liäwen Dat Liäwen is een Spiël, spiël et. Dat Liäwen is ene Plicht, hol di dran. Dat Liäwen is Riekdoom, waar em. Dat Liäwen is een Ewentüür, waog et. Dat Liäwen is ene Siäligkait, do se genaiten. Dat Liäwen is Truerigkait, do se üöwerwinnen. Dat Liäwen is en Draum, maak em waor. Dat Liäwen is wäädvul, gao suorglik daomet üm. Dat Liäwen is een Truerspiël, gao dao giëgenan. Dat Liäwen is een Räödsel, kuëm dao ächter. Dat Liäwen is een Wedstried, niëm em up. Dat Liäwen is Laiwe, frai di dran. Dat Liäwen is Vöspriäken, hol di dran. Dat Liäwen is een Leed, sing et. Dat Liäwen is Liäwen, vödeffendeer et. Dat Liäwen is Glük, vödain et di. Gnaodenrike Winachtsdage un een glüksiälig ni Jaor wünsket Klaus-Werner Kahl uut Risenbiëk www.plattdeutsch.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings [English below] Hier is mien Översetten vun Klaus-Werner sien westfaalsch Riemel (baven) in't Noordneddersassische: Dat Läven Dat Läven is ’n Spääl. Spääl dat. Dat Läven is ’n Plicht. Hold di daar an. Dat Läven is Riekdoom. Wahr em. Dat Läven is ’n Aventüür. Waag’ dat. Dat Läven is ’n Seeligkeit. Do ehr geneten. Dat Läven is Trurigkeit. Do ehr oeverwinnen. Dat Läven is ’n Droom. Maak em wahr. Dat Läven is wäärdvull. Gah sachten daar mit üm. Dat Läven is ’n Truerspeel. Gah daar gägen an. Dat Läven is ’n Raadsel. Kaam daar achter. Dat Läven is ’n Weddstried. Nähm em up. Dat Läven is Leev’. Freih di daar an. Dat Läven is Vörspräken. Hold di daar an. Dat Läven is ’n Leed. Sing dat. Dat Läven is Läven. Verdeffendeer dat. Dat Läven is Glück. Verdehn di dat. My English translation of the verse in Westphalian and North Saxon Lowlands Saxon (Low German) above: Life Life is a game. Play it. Life is a duty. Follow it. Life is wealth. Save it. Life is an adventure. Dare it. Life is bliss. Enjoy it. Life is sadness. Get over it. Life is a dream. Make it come true. Life is precious. Treat it with care. Life is a tragedy. Fight it. Life is a riddle. Solve it. Life is a challenge. Accept it. Life is love. Take pleasure in it. Life is a promise. Keep it. Life is a song. Sing it. Life is life. Defend it. Life is happiness. Earn it. Happy holidays and all the best for 2003! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 21:27:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:27:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.24 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Martijna Briggs Subject: Prettige festdagen Met hartelijke dank voor de LL-L list. Prettige Feestdagen ge wenst en een Gezellig Oud en Nieuw. mb ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings As I am virtually out the door on my way to get settled for Christmas Eve, my best holiday wishes go to all of you who celebrate Christmas, as well as to all of you who celebrate Kwaanza (which also begins today, http://www.tike.com/celeb-kw.htm, http://www.caaap.org/journeymagazine/kwaanza/kwaanza.html). Yours, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 26 18:27:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:27:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: Syntax >> From: George M Gibault >> Subject: Negatives and borrowings >> >> Hi again! >> >> The multiplication of negatives reminds me of a lovely line in a well known >> Scots and sometimes Irish folksong "The Wild Rover" the chorus of which >> goes: >> >> "No nay never - no nay never no more >> Will I play the wild rover >> No never no more." But is this really double negation? I would parse it like this: "No, nay, never - no, nay, never, no more Will I play the wild rover, Nay, never, no more." Not a double negative in sight! I think the real problem with double negatives isn't in speech but in writing. In speech one has emphasis, tone, context, gesture and verification - and even dialectical cues such as accent - to make clear what's meant. These are mostly absent from writing, and especially formal or technical writing. I wouldn't like to come across this in a technical document: "In most cases within Perl code it isn't necessary to use no array indexes." It is just impossible to know whether the negative is being used additively or multiplicatively. In conversation this would be acceptable however, as if the speaker was just using negatives for emphasis he would be shaking his head or something to make this clear. >> The Scots have lovely ways of being emphatic - as the recent paperback >> collection of maledictions "Awa and Bile Yer Heid" makes clear. Yes, lovely George! :) And used copiously where I come from! Most such Scots expressions would never make it through a publishing house, though: "Awa an shite a brick." (Go to hell) "Thick as shite in a bottle." (Thick in the head) "Di'a gie'z yer pish." (Don't give me such nonsense) "He wadna gie ye the reek aff his shite." (He's very stingy) "Happy as a dug wi twa cocks." (Very happy) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 04:58:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:58:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: CedricMasset at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in Spanish so I can't understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? [Cedric Masset] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 05:00:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:00:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] I have with interest followed Sandy and George in their comments. Scots is a very humorous and dry dialect, and I love it. I don't know at which stage my ancestors abandoned it for the Southern dialect of the United States, but they have been here since the very early 1700's, from Ulster, and originally from Skye and Aberdeen. George, I wonder if you are confusing verse, which has no rules, with writing. I don't think you need to parse it to make it correct. And besides, as a scholar, I don't never use no damned double negatives! BG Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 15:25:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 07:25:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (03) [E] > From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] > > I have with interest followed Sandy and George in their comments. Scots is > a very humorous and dry dialect, and I love it. I don't know at which stage > my ancestors abandoned it for the Southern dialect of the United States, but > they have been here since the very early 1700's, from Ulster, and originally > from Skye and Aberdeen. George, I wonder if you are confusing verse, which > has no rules, with writing. I don't think you need to parse it to make it > correct. > > And besides, as a scholar, I don't never use no damned double > negatives! BG > > Harlan Ross May > Gulfport, Mississippi, USA Just some points of clarification: Scots is NOT a dialect - but a seperate language. You say that your ancestors came from Ulster, Skye and Aberdeen. If they spoke Scots - they would have spoken Ulster Scots ( Ullans ) - unless they spoke Irish Gaelic, and N.E Scots ( Aberdeen area ) both of which are very distincitctive dialects of Scots - Colin Wilson's book "Scots language leaner" - shows a good example of N.E Scots - any of us Scots reading it or listening to the CDs would immediately say "Aberdeen!". Your ancestors form Skye would have been Gaelic speaking. Skye Gaelic is a very distinctive dialect of Gaelic and has always been considered a beautiful and pure dialect. Yours Chris Ferguson ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 15:27:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 07:27:47 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.27 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Cedric, It is basically "follow", though can be used in conjunction with a following verb to mean "continue ...ing". Anyway, the "segue", as someone else pointed out, is unmistakably Italian, not Spanish, both in form and pronunciation (seg-way=Italian, Spanish is "sigue" pronounced "see-gay"). Stan > From: CedricMasset at aol.com > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) > [E/Spanish] > > I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in > Spanish so I can't > understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? > > [Cedric Masset] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 17:26:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:26:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.27 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Dear Cedric/Lowlanders, The Spanish seguir and the Italian seguire both mean to follow. Example: Follow my car and I'll get you there. Example: Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." Jorge Potter > From: CedricMasset at aol.com > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] > > I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in Spanish so I can't > understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 17:29:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:29:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.27 (04) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Dan wrote (on Oct. 26): > From: Dan Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) > Subject: LL.L "language survival" > > Moin Holger, > > As ik mi so`n beten över Saterfreesch künnig maken wul, stülter ik över Moin Dan, moin Lowlanders, I immensely enjoyed the review. Considering the examples you reviewed and others world-wide, through the ages, the common denominator appears to be: As long as a language is placed in a secondary position in the - media, - schools - and/or administration, its long-term survival (as a spoken communication language) is impossible. Its as sad and simple as that. Tschüß, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Moin Gabriele, moin to you all, My belated* thanks to you, Gabriele for your travel report. You wrote (a.o.): > If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough > money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... It´s not the money, it´s the political will. The undeclared goal is to snuff out the vernaculars, because they are viewed as a bother rather than a treasure. *health problems prevent me from following the LL-L postings systematically. Tschüß to all, Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 19:30:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:30:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.27 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, I hope that all of you who have celebrated them had wonderful holidays and will continue to enjoy special days as we approach the threashold to the year 2003. Our friends who follow Eastern Orthodox traditions still have the main part of their holiday season in front of them, with Christmas on January 7 and traditional New Year on January 14. I wish everyone a wonderful time on behalf of the entire List, as Lowlands-L begins the last quarter of its eighth year. Since my last administrative message ten days ago we have been joined by a number of people from all over the world. You will find a list of their places at the bottom of this message. I am always pleased to be able to welcome people from "new" places and from countries or regions that so far had been represented scarcely (this time for instance Meurthe et Moselle in France, Usanlo-Bilbao in the Basque Country, Blagoevgrad in Bulgaria, Tyumen in Siberia, and Chennai in India's Tamilnadu). A special welcome to them! And now to some business. Some of you still show in their posting submissions that they are not or only insufficiently familiar with our rules and guidelines. The rules and guidelines are available in English, Dutch, Limburgish, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and Russian at http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm. Please familiarize yourselves with them. Among the most persistent mistakes are these: o not staying with a subject line (i.e., making up one's own topic title in responses), o combining two or more subjects in one response, o responding without saying what one is responding to and whose questions one is answering (forgetting that I will erase everything below your signatures unless it is properly edited), o not "signing" one's postings (i.e., forgetting to give ones name, which I will add in square brackets ([ ]) a few times before beginning to ignore that person's submissions). There is a new one that has not yet made its way into the list of guidelines: writing everything in capital letters. Please remember that this is unacceptable, not only on this list but on the Internet in general (apart from being difficult to read, it is perceived as lazy and/or as "yelling," since all-caps is used only for highly dramatic emphasis in chatrooms). The other day I "quietly" ended a Spanish-language chat with a Spanish reminder and promised to bring it up in my next administrative message. No, the use of Spanish is not the issue. In fact, you are free to use any language you wish, though Lowlands languages are preferable. The issue is that this is a list for eliciting and exchanging information, that it ought not be used as a chatroom. You are encouraged to submit postings to ask and answer questions and to share Lowlands-related information with everyone. You are not encouraged to submit postings that amount to nothing more than exchanges of social pleasantries, namely exchanges that qualify as "private correspondence." Before writing a posting submission, please ask yourselves this basic question: "Is it relevant to the List?" ("List" = around 400 people all over the world) Of course it is proper to thank someone for what they have posted, but if all you want to say is "Thank you" you ought to write the person a private note. If you have things to say in addition and feel that the entire List would benefit from it, then by all means submit it as a posting. No, we do not have to be all serious and stiff all the time, and our generally friendly and familial atmosphere lends itself to occasional jesting. Levity is fine, as long as you avoid put-down jokes and ask yourselves if your jokes will be understood by most readers as intended and are not likely to be construed as offensive or as underhandedly aggressive. Submitting postings *only* for jocular bantering is not all right, also falls into the category of "private correspondence." Friendly regards and thanks for your cooperation, Reinhard/Ron __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net *** New Subscribers December 18-27, 2002: Bulgaria: Sofia: Blagoevgrad [1] Canada: British Columbia: Victoria [1] Manitoba: Winnipeg [1] Ontario: Ottawa [1] France: Meurthe et Moselle: Mazires [1] Germany: North-Rhine-Westphalia: Rheine [1] ? [1] India: Delhi: Delhi [1] Tamilnadu: Chennai [1] Mexico: Mexico City: Mexico City [1] Netherlands: South Holland: Leiden [1] Russian Federation: Siberia: Tyumen: Tyumen [1] Spain: Biskaia/Biscaya (Basque Country): Usanlo-Bilbao United Kingdom: England: Devon: Crediton [1] Leicestershire: Loughborough [1] United States of America: Indiana: Fillmore [1] Kentucky: Paducah [1] Maryland: Baltimore [1] Missouri: Warrensburg [1] North Carolina: Salisbury [1] Oregon: Durham [1] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 00:35:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:35:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.27 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, I am sorry to have to bug you again with an administrative matter, just a postscript to the one I sent earlier today. First of all, thank you to those of you who wrote to me in response. Two matters came up more than once, so I have decided to respond to them on the List for everyone's attention. A few subscribers wrote to me apparently with the assumption that I had had specifically them in mind when I wrote about a need to avoid "frivolous" posting. Please note that I was not pinpointing anyone specific and that this was not some sort of reprimand, just a reminder that what for some people is enjoyable bantering may be unnecessary use of bandwidth to other people. In other words, I am merely reminding us all (yes, myself included) to keep our eyes on the actual purposes of this list. By the same token, I do not want to play the "party pooper" and cramp people's styles. After all, I love a good joke, remark or anecdote just as much as everyone else. So please remember that lightheartedness has most definitely a place, just as long as it accompanies relevant substance, and as long as you are aware that there is cultural diversity in humor. One subscriber's request today reminded me that there had been similar requests over time and that it was high time I brought this matter up to the List. This was a request for all subscribers' names and places (not addresses). Sorry, I cannot do that. Names and addresses of subscribers (and the corresponding places) are privileged information, accessible only to the "owners" and "editors" of the List. This information cannot be passed on to anyone, and this is for the sake of security and common-sense confidentiality. A subscriber becomes known to the List if he or she posts anything to the List, and this is their personal choice. (However, I would not pass on any further information about them either if I were privy to it.) Those who elect to remain "lurkers" ("the silent majority") have every right to remain anonymous. I certainly would love to see more of them "come out" and grace us with their wisdom and/or curiosity, but I would never dream of "outing" them, would never betray the trust with which they honored me when they sent me information (names, addresses and places) about themselves. In a word, confidentiality plays an important role on Lowlands-L, certainly as long as I have anything to do with running it. As you know, I periodically welcome new subscribers and list their places of residence. However, I do not connect this information with names and place. Some subscribers have been with us for a long time, a few since the very early months in 1995. In those days I did not do a thorough job of keeping track of subscriptions, and I gradually lost information about the dates on which people joined and the places in which they lived. Besides, some of our loyal subscribers have moved since they joined us, quite a few of them internationally. Also, please bear in mind that rarely does a day go by that someone does not sign up and/or off, and some people leave us and later return. Thus, membership is very much in flux, though there is a solid, stable core membership (of about 75%-80% in my rough estimation). My only New Year's resolution this time around is that I will attempt to keep better track of membership while guaranteeing the same level of confidentiality. I am compiling a list of current members and will attempt to reconstruct some information about their geographic distribution, hoping to eventually produce periodic lists of places of residence (without names and addresses of course). At the same time I will also attempt to keep track of subscription and unsubscription dates, in part to analyze any patterns, if there are any. I assume that this will be my last administrative message of 2002. I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped to make Lowlands-L a hospitable and interesting place for yet another year. Special thanks go to all who have been quietly supporting the running of the List and thos who have been volunteering for special projects, such as Lowlands Talk (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). A massive kudos each goes to Sandy Fleming (UK), Mathieu van Woerkom (Netherlands) and Roman Laryushkin (Ukraine) who have been particularly helpful and productive in many ways. Many warm thanks also to so many others of you who have been very supportive to me and to the List in 2002 and in many cases for several years prior. There will never be a way for me to adequately express my gratitude and delight. Hoping that you all slide smoothly into 2003 and will be safe and happy this coming year, I send you my regards. __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 00:37:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:37:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (01) [E] Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands. Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect. Take no offense at my reply, Chris, please. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 01:19:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:19:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Double plurals Speaking of double negatives, how about double plurals? Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in cases where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must surely be unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) - araba (car) - araba-lar (car-s) - iki araba (two cars) Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Ole Stig, Lowlanders! > Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in cases > where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must surely be > unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double plural is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > /Söü(e)/ _Schöh_ ~ _Schäuh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this is true double pluralizing. I do agree -- seen globally -- that it seems strange, "excessive," that Germanic languages (and most other Indo-European languages) require plural forms with numbers. It is true that many languages do very well without plural forms or with scarce use of plural markers, for instance Sino-Tibetan languages, Altaic languages (including Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Japanese and Korean), and numerous language groups of Australia, Oceania, Africa and the Americas. Those that manage without plural markers do not seem worse off (contextually), nor do those that do not use articles (another Germanic "extra"), such as Slavic languages and the above-mentioned. So it seems indeed a good question to ask why languages would develop and retain such devices that to others would seem superfluous (aside from difficult to learn -- including also gender marking which is totally unknown and is perceived as unnecessary (!) in most Altaic languages). > ... like Turkish ;-) > > - araba (car) > - araba-lar (car-s) > - iki araba (two cars) Just briefly (for reasons of "un-Lowlandic-ness") let me mention that I have gained the impression that the supposed Turkic plural marker is not a genuine plural marker. In some Turkic varieties, such as the Oghuz languages at the western end (including Turkish), this marker (/-lAr/) seems to be moving toward plural marking function. However, I have found that originally (in Old/Orkhon Turkic and in medieval varieties) and still in the Eastern Turkic languages (such as Uyghur, Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrghyz, Yellow Uyghur, Salar, Khakas, Tuva, Altai) it seems to be something like a "variety marker," implying something like "various (sorts of) ...", not being used in many contexts where plural marking would apply in Germanic languages. I think that in this sense it is similar to Malay and Indonesian noun doubling (e.g., _buah_ 'fruit' versus _buah-buah_ '(various) fruit' where _buah_ alone can indicate plural when plurality is obvious within a given context). We tend to impose our native categorization of morphology on "exotic" languages we learn when in reality the categorization is not entirely warranted. This also applies to Westerners who learn Mandarin Chinese overusing the suffix 們/们 _-men_ indicating plural of humans, and overusing 了 _-le_ (< _-liao_) as though it were a Western past tense marker when its real function focuses more on change than on past action. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 19:36:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:36:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] Ole Stig Andersen wrote: >>Speaking of double negatives, how about double plurals?<< The British Celtic languages have a singular noun following a numeral, i.e. Corn. "two men" (sg. = "man, person"; pl. tus = "men, people"); three cats (sg. cath; pl.: cathas); five years (sg. bledhen; pl. bledhennow); Dialectal and regional English does this a lot, as in "that`s five pound, please"; "it´s only about ten mile" etc. Breton has true double plurals when the diminuitive is used: For example: = "boat" => (or ) = "boats" = "little boat" => sg.n. + pl.sufx. + dim.sufx. + pl.sufx. => = "little boats" Breton (as well as Cornish and Welsh) also have "double" pluarls in other nouns, well, strictly speaking: collective, singulative, plural, i.e. Corn. = "stars" (i.e. in the sky, in general)> collective; = "(one) star" > singulative; = "(a countable amount of) stars" > plural Bret. = "fish" (col.) = "fish" (pl.) = "(one) fish" (sg.) = "(countable amount of) fish" Yours, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 20:19:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:19:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Harlan wrote: > Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements > about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is > not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " > A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish > Lowlands. Yes, just as 'English' is a distinguishing epithet of a dialect of Scots spoken in many parts of the world. It just depends who's writing the definition :) It would be truer to say that Scots is a dialect of Northumbrian, one of the four distinctive Anglo-Saxon dialects of Great Britain. To call this 'English' as if it were the same thing as modern educated English is being a bit vague. > Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but As has often been pointed out, Scots is as distinct from English as Swedish and Danish or Czech and Slovak are from each other. So the political standpoint can't simply be waved away as if it were unimportant in determining language status. > a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, He wouldn't, if he were honest and knowledgable. Judging from the linguistics textbooks I've studied, few have any clue about Scots, often classifying it as a dialect of English yet failing to include it in their discussions of English dialect. Peter Trudgill's popular introductory books on English dialectology leave the Scots question open but restrict their discussion to dialects of England. Even worse is David Crystal, who concludes that Shetlandic is just English, judging from a sample of a Shetland man speaking English (_not_ Shetlandic!). This is like concluding that French is just English because you've heard a Frenchman speaking English. The problem is that while not willing to admit that Scots is outside their domain, they still find it infeasible to treat it as an English dialect. > French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it > spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not Note that Burns poetry as normally published is highly anglicised, partly for the English-speaking market, partly due to Burns and his predecessors emulating the diction of English poets. Scots speakers don't read it in the same way as an English speaker would read it. The versions presented on my website at http://scotstext.org/ are much improved, though still in a form liable to be read incorrectly by English speakers (time to buy Colin Wilson's book and learn the language properly!). Sandy Fleming http://scotstext.org/ -------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] At 00:37 28/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but >a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, >structure, and derivation In doing so, the philologist would be taking a different but equally political standpoint. One could equally well find English to be a form of Scots, which would be as much a political standpoint as the other two. A statement that "Scots and English are each a variation of the Anglo-Saxon/Norman-French creole" would at least be fairly neutral in the political sense. However the suggestion that "Scots is a form/dialect of English" arises from a posited anglocentric (i.e. politicised) world-view, which is really for its proponents to justify rather than being for others to refute. Colin Wilson. ---------- From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: >>Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands. Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect. Take no offense at my reply, Chris, please. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA<< *** Dear Harlan Ross May, >>The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands.<< Indeed the question whether Scots is a "dialect" or a "language" is political AND linguistc, and leads us to a very old discussion in linguistics (langue/parole). I think the terminology in this case is up to Scots people and Scots speakers themselves, and not to anyone else, or the Oxford dictionary for that matter. 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no question of it. A very strong point for the "language" term regarding Scots is the fact that it has a literary tradition of its own, both old and new, which differs significantly in use and form from other English dialect-writings. Oh, and many English and Scots speakers would find Scots differing in syntax, vocabulary, and structure. Comprehension is not a criterium for deciding whether confronted with language or dialect >>But a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language<< This may be a little nitpickety, but I object to the term regarding both Scots and English. It´s either Anglo-Saxon (I prefer Old English) or Norman French (Anglo-Norman). These were two separate languages spoken predominantly in England, and Scotland as well after the Norman Conquest. Despite the large portion of English lexical items borrowed from both Anglo Norman and Continental French these two above mentioned languages were never "fused" to form another from which both English and Scots would have been ultimately derived, as you suggested. It is true that Scots and English are derived from Old English (Anglo-Saxon), but whereas standard English was derived on an East Saxon base with plenty of Mercian admixture, Scots is derived from the Northumbrian dialects of Old English, thus is distinct from the time of the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain. >>colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect<< I always find cliché descriptions such as "colorful", "warm", "lovable expressions" difficult, at best, when it comes down to comparing languages, or dialects. I can only apply these terms to certain speakers of a language. Since speakers of every Language have their very own way of expressing the world as they perceive it, these descriptions apply to any and all languages. This reminds be incredably of what I heard in the States so often when folks commented on my Englsih "Oh, your Briddish Accènt is so cute". Well, maybe it IS "cute", but only because it is perceived as such by some USAmericans. Canadians, Scotsmen, (and southerners, English I mean) already comment differently. My point is, it has always got to do with the point of view your coming from. Yours sincerely, Dan Oh, and a belated very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to come. Nadelek lowen ha bledhen noweth da re`gas bo ! ---------- From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] The Oxford English dictionary may say that - but that is a hang over to the Anglocentric system in the U.K. I have just looked up my Oxford English dictionary -and it says "the form of English used in Scotland". This is highly inaccurate ( I'm glad you pointed it out to me - I will bring it to the attention of Ishbel Mac Leod - editor of the Scots National Dictionary Association ). Scottish English is different to Scots. Scottish English is how we speak English - with our own pronunciation, idioms etc. Whereas Scots is a distinctive - though related - language to English -with it's separate history, grammar, pronunciation etc, etc. To say that Scots is just a dialect of English is a long seated fallacy - based on a system in the U.K that wanted to obliterate any separate identity that wasn't English. Scots is similar to English as they both derive from dialects of Old English -but from different dialects!!! Because we were separate nations our dialects were able to develop in their own directions. People who do not understand Scots, will hear Scottish people speaking Scottish English - mostly for the benefit of non Scots speakers around them - or because there is prejudice against Scots an the use of it identifies you as being "uncouth and uncultured"etc.- and think they are speaking Scots. It is historically or philologically as accurate and as fair to call English a dialect of Scots as Scots a dialect of English - using the criterion and the argument put forward for declaring Scots a dialect of English - because both of them are of them both being descendents of Old English. The major points to remember are: 1) Scots and English are descended of different dialects of Old English -it is possible that these were different dialects even before the Anglo Saxons first came to these Isles - and were still in the are of what is now north west Germany /East Netherlands / Southern Denmark - remembering that the Anglo Saxons came in two waves of the Angles and the Saxons. 2) Both languages had separate historical paths - each going their own separate ways. 3) Each had separate and distinctive influences on them ( part of point 2 above ). Just because two languages have a similar origin does not mean it is therefore justified to call on a dialect of the other -otherwise why don't we call Norwegian a dialect of Danish ( both of which are in fact closer to each other than Scots and English are to each other ), Frisian a dialect of Dutch - or Portuguese a dialect of Castilian Spanish - etc???? It should be pointed out that Scots is recognized as a distinct and separate language by the European Union - it is just some of the English ( and Scottish!! ) Establishment that has a problem with the point!!! I am sure there are other folk here better qualified than me to clarify this point for you but should you need any further information on the Scots language perhaps you could look at: Andy Eagle's excellent "Wir ain Leid" at: http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/ or the Scots language society's web site at: http://www.lallans.co.uk/ Yours Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Sandy wrote (above): > The problem is that while not willing to admit that Scots is outside > their domain, they still find it infeasible to treat it as an English > dialect. Colin wrote (above): > However the suggestion that "Scots is a form/dialect of English" arises > from a posited anglocentric (i.e. politicised) world-view, which is > really for its proponents to justify rather than being for others to > refute. Dan wrote (above): > A very strong point for the "language" term regarding Scots is the fact > that it has a literary tradition of its own, both old and new, which > differs significantly in use and form from other English > dialect-writings. Oh, and many English and Scots speakers would find > Scots differing in syntax, vocabulary, and structure. Comprehension is > not a criterium for deciding whether confronted with language or dialect Chris wrote (above): > 2) Both languages had separate historical paths - each going their own > separate ways. > > 3) Each had separate and distinctive influences on them ( part of point 2 > above ). These highlights, and pretty much everything else said above, incidentally apply to the case of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well -- substituting "English" with "German" (in the Netherlands with "Dutch") and "(Old) Northumbrian" with "Old Saxon". If what are now Northern Germany and the eastern provinces of the Netherlands had by a different turn of events ended up a separate country, *before* German/Dutch imposition, no one would nowadays question its status as a separate language. Chris further wrote : > It should be pointed out that Scots is recognized as a distinct and separate > language by the European Union - it is just some of the English ( and > Scottish!! ) Establishment that has a problem with the point!!! Again, this applies to LS. EU recognition alone is not the magic bullet. In fact, this political decision is considered a great inconvenience and threat to many who are in power, as well as to the many who find it difficult to deal with change or with questioning the status quo in general. The academic establishment is not going to change its texts overnight, keeps teaching the old German- and Dutch-centered dialectological schemes in relative ivory tower seclusion, while administrative officials do their parts in halting the development, usually by ignoring the new regulations under the pretext of insufficient resources. The Nederlandse Taalunie has already come out to say that recognizing Lowlands Saxon in the Netherlands was a grave mistake (namely an opening of the floodgates that pose a threat to the Dutch language) and that recognition of other regional languages (such as Zeelandic) should be denied. Dan further wrote: > I always find cliché descriptions such as "colorful", "warm", "lovable > expressions" difficult, at best, when it comes down to comparing > languages, or dialects. I completely concur. Even if not intended as such, many native speakers and others will find such descriptions patronizing, not only because of the inherent stereotyping but also because such descriptions more often than not go with or imply non-recognition of language status or imply inferior language status (e.g., "that cute little language of yours," as someone once referred to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) in my presence). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 20:38:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:38:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.27 (04) [E/LS] To Mike Wintzer I think the attitude toward Plattdeutsch is illustrated by a young woman from Nuernberg, who stopped at our shop several months ago. I was online at the time and told her somewhat excitedly that I had found Plattdeutsche websites. She said "Plattdeutsch?", and walked away laughing. I think the attitude is that Plattdeutsch is only the language of dumme Bauern. Tom Byro -----Original Message----- My belated* thanks to you, Gabriele for your travel report. You wrote (a.o.): > If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough > money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... It´s not the money, it´s the political will. The undeclared goal is to snuff out the vernaculars, because they are viewed as a bother rather than a treasure. *health problems prevent me from following the LL-L postings systematically. Tschüß to all, Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 04:08:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:08:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Brian A. Rolbiecki Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] I am hosting a Robert Burns Supper in Milwaukee WI I would like to know how a Scotsman would say Welcome! ---------- From: Richard Creel Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Help! Auxilio! Aiuto! Aux secours! I need information about Frisian and maybe also Zeelandic. Please answer somebody in Spanish or English, although I can deal with French and Italian also. Thanks, Richard Nash Creel gringudo at yahoo.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 04:24:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:24:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] > From: Sandy Fleming > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. This is absolutely correct, but not quite to the point, I think. It should have been double bad: > 200 years ago many a NORWEGIAN person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. (Nowadays there are several.) Right on! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/english ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] Ladies and Gentlemen: I was highly gratified that my comments opened such a preponderance of opinion. I was soundly thrashed in a very gentle manner. But, most of the replies had political overtones because I stirred a long-smoldering fire in making this unconditional statement, that Scots is a dialect of English. It certainly does not have its roots in the Celtic tongues even though some of the syntactic structure might have been affected by a Brit or Scot's original Celtic usage. I am aware that Lowland Scots probably had a great influence on the form of Late Middle English or Modern English, that worked it's way into Scotland to replace the banned Gaelic (by whatever name, Goidelic, Cornish, Erse, or what have you). I would suppose that the many Welsh living in Northumbria had an effect on it also. Now, at this point, I am speaking in an historical manner, therefore political. As I stated before, my ancestors (paternal and maternal) originated in different parts of Scotland and Ireland (Ulster). So, I have reason to be proud of the Scottish people, and their massive contribution to the modern world, and I also realize that the Irish monks were responsible for saving most of civilization during the Dark Ages, by preserving and spreading Christianity, the arts and literacy (another thread). I am astounded that my statements about the warmth of Scots would be taken as patronizing. If that is so, Robert Burns, made a big mistake by writing the way he did. I am aware of the modern surge in Scottish nationalism and am proud of Scotland. I just hope their country doesn't sacrifice independence and freedom for some failed political cause. I have one branch of my family on the paternal side who descended from the Normans in England, but I always take the Celtic side. I am gratified by the history of the Scots, except for their waiting for more than fifteen-hundred years to unite into one people. The Celts of Europe waited too long, and now speak a latin language because of it. But that again is another thread. Please excuse me for digressing, but there are so many influences on language that one cannot discuss language without discussing history. [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Harlan Ross May wrote (above): > I am aware that Lowland Scots probably had a great influence on > the form of Late Middle English or Modern English, that worked it's way into > Scotland to replace the banned Gaelic (by whatever name, Goidelic, Cornish, > Erse, or what have you). Exactly when, where, by whom and under what circumstances was Gaelic banned? As far as I am informed, Goidelic is a Celtic language branch to which Irish, Gaelic and Manx belong, and Cornish is a Brythonic Celtic language used way down southwest in Cornwall. The Celtic languages that used to be spoken in various parts of Scotland were Pictish and Welsh. Gaelic was introduced to parts of Scotland from Ireland (hence "Erse" = "Irish") at roughly the same time Germanic varieties were introduced to other parts of Scots, and both these Irish-Scottish and Germanic (Northumbrian) Scottish varieties came to replace the earlier languages of the region. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 22:57:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:57:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] CORRECTION I mistakenly attributed the quote > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. to Sandy Fleming The real author was Dan Prohaska My apologies to you both and y'all. Ole Stig MY MSG SHOULD HAVE READ: > From: Dan Prohaska > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. This is absolutely correct, but not quite to the point, I think. It should have been double bad: > 200 years ago many a NORWEGIAN person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. (Nowadays there are several.) Right on! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/english ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Ron asked when the Gaelic tongue was banned or outlawed. Between 1695 and about 1725, after the Jacobite uprising was put down by the English Government and the Clans loyal to England, it was outlawed and all schools that were erected thereafter sought to erase the tongue, and succeeded in most parts of Scotland except the highlands controlled by the MacDonalds, who were at times almost a country unto themselves. This could be why it is spoken in those same areas today. During much of that time George I was probably the English monarch. And I suppose that the language was outlawed because of the Jacobites, whom England and the Whig government did not want to see active again. Harlan Ross May ---------- From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Frisians" Lowlanders, Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to have gone unrecorded? I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? Bede was the first person to translate the Bible into a form of English. Is it possible that Bede's translation was strongly influenced by Frisian and that subsequent English writings were strongly influenced by Bede's translation? (Actually, a certain member of the family is looking over my shoulder and strongly objecting to some of the assertions I'm making here, but anyway, though this isn't something I know much about, I thought it might be worthwhile to put the subject up for discussion amongst the more knowledgeable!) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Ross May wrote: > As I stated before, my ancestors (paternal and > maternal) originated in different parts of Scotland and Ireland (Ulster). > So, I have reason to be proud of the Scottish people. Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes. Even if they happen to be related to me, I don't see how that would make me feel like I'm a better person by proxy. Everybody is responsible for their own actions, and if perhaps I had a great-grandfather who was considered a hero, that would be something for him to be proud of, not me. As a biologist, I fail to see how glory could be passed on genetically. Somebody (I think it was Sandy) raised the point that Scots is often confused with Scottish English. I think this is a very important distinction. Germany, for example, is a country which features many local language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're exposed to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's how they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions. I have lived in six different Bundesländer so far, from Lower Saxony to Bavaria, and I always found that the way the locals talked to me - which seemed to be a heavy dialect to the unsuspecting ear - was very different from the way they talked among themselves (which I could only listen to and understand with utmost concentration). I was also heavily surprised more than once when, during my college years, I would accompany a close friend home for a weekend with his or her parents, and suddenly find that they were virtually bilingual and that the "strong dialect" I had heard from them so far had actually been their best effort at "Oxford German". ;-) >From this experience, I suspect that, even in Britain, many people are not aware that the Scots language goes way beyond the "Scottish" voices they hear on TV. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] At 04:24 29/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > I was highly gratified that my comments opened such a >preponderance of opinion. I was soundly thrashed in a very gentle manner. >But, most of the replies had political overtones because I stirred a >long-smoldering fire in making this unconditional statement, that Scots is a >dialect of English. It certainly does not have its roots in the Celtic >tongues even though some of the syntactic structure might have been affected >by a Brit or Scot's original Celtic usage. It's common knowledge that Scots does not have its roots in the Celtic tongues. However, to argue that Scots is therefore "a dialect of English" is not only an inconclusive argument, but a complete non-sequitur. The earlier postings on this subject were intended for Harlan Ross May's enlightenment on that point, rather than as a "thrashing", and I suggest respectfully that he read them again. They may indeed have had political overtones, but so has his suggestion of Scots being "a dialect of English". Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Gabriele, you wrote (above): > Germany, for example, is a country which features many local > language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're exposed > to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's how > they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, > tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions. I don't understand why you needed to apologize to me, since what you said applies, quite factually, to "people" (which I understand as implying "in general," and which may or may not include you but apparently is meant to exclude me). I assume you implicitly included what some of us refer to as "Low(lands) Saxon." It is quite correct to say that probably the vast majority of Germans, including North Germans, still think of "Low German" as a German dialect group, most people of the Netherlands think of the Lowlands Saxon (_Nedersaksisch_) as dialects of Dutch, and certainly most Germans have never heard of the European Language Charter and its consequences, or buried reports went by them with all the other "irrelevant gobbledigook" in the media. The fact that LS and German descended from two quite different Germanic languages (Old Saxon and Old ("High") German respectively) is not exactly common knowledge in Germany (and has been traditionally glossed over in academic circles), and assumedly this is not an accident. As I said, EU recognition is not the magic bullet. It's still business as usual: schools are not changing their curricula accordingly, the popular media (which are the sole source of information for about 99% of the population) rarely mention "Platt" and then mostly as a "funny little dialect," and officialdom does it's part to ward off any "fallout" of the European Language Charter ratification promise. Most certainly, I cannot see even the slightest sign of any wholehearted effort to inform the public, and I suspect that the silent motto is "the less said the better." The ideal "one country, one ethnicity, one language" is old in Europe, and the perception that diversity that is more than skin-deep (i.e., goes beyond dialects) equals disunity or threatens national coherence still predominates. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:02:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:02:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.28 (04) [E] At 04:08 29/12/02, Brian A. Rolbiecki wrote: >I am hosting a Robert Burns Supper in Milwaukee WI >I would like to know how a Scotsman would say Welcome! The Scots pronunciation is with the first vowel shortened to a schwa (obscure vowel), here in the north-east at least. There are other things you might say depending on the situation. If you're inviting someone in from outside, you could say "come awa ben" (i.e. come on inside). "You're welcome" as a response to thanks can be expressed as "(it's) nae bather". Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:20:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:20:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > Hi, Ole Stig, Lowlanders! > >> Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in > cases >> where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must >> surely > be >> unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) > > The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double > plural > is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > > /Söü(e)/ > _Schöh_ ~ > _Schäuh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this > is > true double pluralizing. Dear Ole and Ron, Hello again (been away for a week to see the snow in the Alps) In my V we still say shoe (or skoe) for one shoe, and shoen (or skoen or shoes) in plural. So it is really a double pluralizing. I wonder if kind-kinder-kinderen ( or kinders) is not another example. And also : rund-runder-runderen. In my V dictionary(De Bo) i found the same item: De s, teeken van't mv, hangt somwijlen aan -en, een ander teeken van 't mv. Dus: bard(=E plank)-barden-bardens bed-bedden-beddens hemd(=E shirt)-hemden-hemdens mes-messen-messens dilt (=E half)-dilten-diltens knie(= E knee)-knien-kniens- schoe-schoen-schoens kous(= E stocking)-kousen-kousens vest (=E fortress, D vesting)-vesten-vestens tee(= E toe)-teen-teens And there is also(amongst a lot of other words): bijkan (=E almost)-bijkans-bijkanst-bijkansten bin (=E while) bins-binst-binsten misschien(=E maybe)-misschiens-misschienst niever (=E nowhere)-nievers-nieverst nogtan(=E nevertheless)-nogtans-nogtanst-nogtansten schier (=E almost)-schiers-schierst-schiersten waneer (=E when)-waneers-waneerst-waneersten zeker(=E sure)-zekers-zekerst-zekersten But I think that this is a combination of plurals and strengthenings. greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double > plural > is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > > /Söü(e)/ > _Schöh_ ~ > _Schäuh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this > is > true double pluralizing. > Hello Ron, Isn't this the same for double diminutives? In V, we have e kleên huseke e kleên vertellingske... It is used every day, also when we speak Dutch: een klein huisje een klein verhaaltje. We even say: e groat kindje!(=E a tall little child) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Luc! Thanks for the response, and good to see you got back home to the Lowlands safe and sound. Some of the double plurals occur in some Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects as well, such as _Kind_ 'child' > _Kinner_ ~ _Kinners_, also in Missingsch (German dialects on LS substrates): _Kind_ 'child' > _Kinner_ 'children' > _Kinners_ 'Kids!' (vocative). As for double diminutives, this occurs less frequently in most modern Northern LS dialects of Germany, because diminutive forms are used much less there than in most German dialects and certainly far less than in Low Frankish varieties. Looking at your examples, I wonder if you could argue that for instance _kind_ and (originally diminutive) _kindje_ aren't lexicialized separately. The fact that you can say both _e kleên kindje_ ("a small/little kiddie") and _e groat kindje_ ("a big/tall kiddie") seems to point in that direction. Cannot _kindje_ also denote an adult as seen by a parent or by another elder, used as a term of endearment where physical size is not relevant? In that case _e kleên kindje_ may no longer be a case of genuine double diminutive. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:22:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:22:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (04) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Richard Nash Creel wrote: >> I need information about Frisian and maybe also Zeelandic.<< Dear Richard, I`d be glad to help you with Frisian. As you mentioned Zeelandic I reckon you`re more interested in the Westfrisian variety. However I`m afraid I know more about the Frisian dialects spoken in Germany. This already shows the dilemma to the beginner of Frisian as there are very many different "Frisians": !) West Frisian in the Dutch province of Frysklân/Friesland, spoken by about 400 000 Frisians who are mostly bilingual with Dutch. The provincial borders do not exactly coincide with the language border. Traditionally Frisian is not spoken in It Bilt/Het Bildt, a part of the coast which was claimed from the sea in the 16-17 centuries and settled by Dutch speakers, as well as Stellingwerven (where to my knowledge North Saxon dialects are spoken). The Frisian language nowadays is confined to the rural areas whereas in the Frisian towns varieties are spoken, with which it is not always clear to state whether they are Frisian dialects heavily influenced by Duch or Dutch dialects heavily influenced by Frisian. These Town-Dialects are called Stedfrysk (Ljowert/Leeuwarden; Snits/Sneek; Frjentjer; Franeker; Boalsert /Bolsward); Harns/Harlingen; Starum/Staveren). West Frisian is also spoken on the islands of Skiermûnseach and Hylpen. West Frisian is dialectally more homogeneous than North Frisian, however following dialectal divisions can be heard: a) Klaaifrysk (West), b) Wâldfrysk (East); c) Súdwesthoeksk (South-west) as well as the island dialects d) Skiermûntseachsk, e) dialects of Skylge: e1) Aasters, e2) Westers. 2) East Frisian: Careful not to confuse this with the East Frisian dialects of Northn Saxon spoken traditionally today: The Frisian of East Frisian survives only in its colonial dialect in the moors of Saterland. This variety is called Seeltersk (Saterfriesisch). The east Frisian dialect of Wangerooge died out around the turn of the last century. The Frisian dialects were replaced by North Saxon throughout the rest of Eeast Frisia. The term for the language, East Frisian, remaind and continued to be used for the Frisian influenced North Saxon dialects, which are today under strong pressure from High German (standard German). Saterland Frisian as the sole survivor or East Frisian proper is spoken in the three villages of the Saterland: Schäddel (Scharrel); Strukelje (Strücklingen) and Roomelse (Ramsloh) where there are some 1000-2000 speakers of Seeltersk. There are even minute dialectal differences between the villages. 3) North Frisian is spoken in the administrative district of Nordfriesland in the German Bundesland of Schleswig-Holstein; the number of speakers is estimated around 10 000 (of about 60 000 who claim Frisian heritage). Dialectal diversity is enormous in North Frisian. There are two main dialectal divisions a) Island Frisian; and b) Mainland Frisian: a) Island Frisian, the dialects of a1) Söl (Sylt), a2) Feer (Föhr) and a3) Oomram (Amrum), The latter two are more closely related, and a4) Heligoland; b) Mainland Frisian (from North to South): b1) Wiedingharde; b2) Bökingharde; b3) West Mooring; b4) East Mooring; b5) Karrharde; b6) North Goesharde; b7) Middle Goesharde; b8) South Goesharde (moribund); b9) the Halligen; These dialects are so different from eachother that comprehension difficulties may arise, although on "interfrisian get-togethers" speakers are encouraged to speak Frisian in order to increase exposure to the unknown neighbouring variety. This inability to communicate in Frisian beyond the parish boundary is linguistic only to a certain extent. The main reason for this was that Frisian was traditionally only used within the parish. All external business was done either through Low Saxon or Danish. Even today many North Frisians are trilingual (Frisian, Low saxon, High German) or even quadtrilingual (afore mentioned + Danish). The whole area is polyglott. Some lexical examples: English West Frisian East Frisian North Frisian Seeltersk Mooring Fering (Föhr) eel iel äil äil ial old âld oold üülj ual arm earm äärm ärm iarem to bite bite biete bite bitj to bleed bliede bläide blädje bled to thank tankje tonkje tunke toonke village doarp täärp toorp taarep own eigen oain äin aanj iron izer ierzen joorn iisen to eat ite iete ääse iidj to fall falle fale fále faal foot foet fout fötj fut feet fuotten fäite fätj fet grass gêrs gäärs gjars gärs to hear hearre here hiire hiar cheese tsiies síes säis sees church tsjerke säärke schörk sark day dei dai däi dai days dagen dege deege daar to forget ferjitte ferjete ferjeese ferjid to know witte wiete waase wed (I) know wit weet wiitj witj two twa twäin/two twäär/tuu tau I hope this little introduction was helpful. If you have any more questions just fire away. For more information try the links on the LL-L website. Yehes da lemmyn ha woja hemma ynwedh, *** Here a question I posted some weeks ago, which was never answered concerning the relationship between Old Frisian and Old Saxon, as well as Old Frisian developments, Since my last posting was in Englisch and remained ananswered I`ll ty in German. Ron ??? Zum Altfriesischen (AF): Mir ist aufgefallen, dass in der Entwickling von Nordwestgermanischen (NWG) zum AF der Zwielaut /ai/ eine Phonemspaltung erfahren hat (i-Umlaut nicht migerechnet) und den AF Reflex /ē/ (stēn, bēn stc.) oder /ā/ (māra, rāp) aufweist. Die Monophthongierung zu /ē/ ist mir relativ klar. Jene zu /ā/ jedoch weniger: Unter welchen Voraussetzungen wurde NWG */ai/ zu AF /ā/ ? Ich habe gelesen, dass die lexikalische Distribution im ganzen friesischsprachigen Raum gleich ist, also, dass die Phonemspaltung Gemeinfriesisch ist. War das vor-AF Verhältnis zwischen /ā/ und /ē/ ein Allophonisches, wie Altenglisch (AE) / AF kurzes NWG */a/ zu tonerhöhtem /æ/ bzw. /e/ ? Und ist es vielleicht analog zum Kurzvokal zu einem Ausgleich gekommen, der phonemisiert wurde? Wie verhielt sich dieses AF /ā/ (> */ai/) zum Produkt AF /ā/ aus der Monophthongierung von NWG */au/ ? Sind die Laute im ganzen friesischsprachigen Raum zusammengefallen? Zum Niederdeutschen: Um den ingvaeonischeren Charakter des Altniederdeutschen (AND) der vorliterarischen Zeit, gegenüber dem überlieferten Altsächsischen, weiß ich. Mir ist jedoch aufgefallen, dass die modernen östlich westphälischen (O-Wph) und ostphälischen (Oph) Dialekte ebenfalls eine Phonemspaltung von AND /é2/ (> NWG */ai/) aufweisen. Meine Frage daher: Kennt ihr vielleicht die lexikalische Distribution dieser Spaltung, und wisst ihr ob sich diese mit jener des Friesischen deckt? Ist sie vermutlicherweise in der gleichen Zeit entstanden, oder handelt es sich um eine jüngere Entwicklung? Ich kenne keine Wortbeispiele, nur dass AND */é2a/ im O-Wph & SW-Oph zu /EI/ und AND * /é2b/ zu /aI/ wurde; während die Realisierung der Laute im N-Oph jeweils /EI/ und /e:/ ist und im zentralen Oph. respektive /aI/ und /e:/ (laut Ross.). Ich weiß, dass die textuelle Überlieferung in der betreffenden Zeit mager bis nicht existent ist, aber vielleicht könnt ihr mir ja trotzdem weiterhelfen. Grüße, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 01:21:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I wrote: > The > ideal "one country, one ethnicity, one language" is old in Europe, and the > perception that diversity that is more than skin-deep (i.e., goes beyond > dialects) equals disunity or threatens national coherence still > predominates. Sorry. I meant to write "national cohesion" rather than "national coherence." (A Freudian slip?:) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 19:32:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:32:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Madam Gabrielle wrote the following in response to my saying that I am proud of my ancestors: "Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes. Even if they happen to be related to me, I don't see how that would make me feel like I'm a better person by proxy. Everybody is responsible for their own actions, and if perhaps I had a great-grandfather who was considered a hero, that would be something for him to be proud of, not me. As a biologist, I fail to see how glory could be passed on genetically." I can understand why this concept would be difficult for some to understand, and one has my deepest sympathy. Perhaps it is genetic, but as a biologist, you would be obligated to say that attitudes cannot be handed down through generations. As a philosopher, I would say that it can and has. To look with pride upon one's own personal accomplishments is gross pretentionsness. But the pride of a people is something greater than self. However, Robert Frost, the American poet, said it best: " Nothing to look backward with pride, and nothing to look forward to with hope" (in "Home Burial") I would feel empty if I couldn't look backwards to the accomplishments of others with pride, nor foward to the accomplishments of a nation with hope. Proud I remain, and with pride I look forward. That is why one defends his heritage to the last drop of blood. The Scots had it, and thank God they did. They didn't get that pride "by proxy". But then, again, that is why some nations can never rise above their own passiveness. They are satisfied with mediocrity, and lack that indefinable feeling called, for lack of a better name, "pride". If you can't conceive it, you can't really understand it. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] I wrote: > Germany, for example, is a country which features many local > language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're > exposed > to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's > how > they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, Ron replied: > I don't understand why you needed to apologize to me, since what you said > applies, quite factually, to "people" (which I understand as implying "in > general," and which may or may not include you but apparently is meant to > exclude me). No, of course not, please don't feel excluded. I merely apologized for the use of the word "dialect" which got me in serious trouble before. I just meant that that's the word most people would choose, be it correct or not. I suppose that one strong influence which helped to label Lower Saxon as "cute", or "a funny little dialect" is the famous Ohnsorg-Theater in Hamburg. Their plays are often broadcast on TV, and they are always comedies. Also, they are performed in "Missingsch", a watered-down version of Lower Saxon which can easily be understood by any High German speaker, leading them to believe that this is truly "Platt". Also, of course, poems written in Platt are often humorous (just think of Fritz Reuter and Wilhelm Busch), giving a further impression of "cute". Speaking of Wilhelm Busch - I have translated some of his poems into English and hope to do more some day. For a sample, have a look at http://www.rivertext.com/busch.shtml. Gabriele Kahn --------- From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] > From: Sandy Fleming > Subject: "Frisians" > > Lowlanders, > > Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English > language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to > have gone unrecorded? This has a simple explanation: the Anglo-Saxon tribes came from the mainland, where they were neighbours of the Frisians. In fact, many authorities believe some Frisians went along with them when these tribes migrated from the mainland, as they might have passed through Frisian territory. And afterwards, the Frisians kept contact with the Germanic tribes in England due to their extensive trading with Great Brittain (and Scandinavia). Even before the migration, the Germanic tribes (Frisians, Saxons and Angles, mostly) along the North Sea coast (and what is now called "Waadsee" in WF, or "Wattensee" (I believe) in G.) developed some common traits that separated them from the other tribes. It is these traits that are known as "Ingvaeonic" : well-known ones are palatalisation phenomena, like k > ts, g > j (before or after front vowels), a> e, â > ê; and monophtongisation of old ai and au (in more contexts than eg in Old Franconian and Old German), loss of n/m before the fricatives th,s and f, and morhological ones as losing the 3rd/4th case distinction in pronouns, plus a tendency for so-called h-pronouns (like he/him, Old-Frisian hia/hiu etc.), plus some typical words or words in typical meanings (like key(E)/kaai(WF) vs. sleutel (D)) The mainland tribes took these traits with them, and they were preserved in their relative isolation, while some of the tribes they still traded with still had them, so this must have also worked well for keeping these features. In the time of Old-English, Old-Frisian was probably (together with "conservative" (i.e. Ingvaeonic, in this case) Old-Saxon) the easiest Germanic variety to understand. The Frisians are later converted to Christianity by missionaries speaking Old-English in some variety... > I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm > mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain > mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only > other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members > of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts > (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). > > Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? Bede was > the first person to translate the Bible into a form of English. Is it > possible that Bede's translation was strongly influenced by Frisian > and that subsequent English writings were strongly influenced by > Bede's translation? > Mm, I think names do not say much here. The old Germanic tribes basically had the same names in small variations in those days. So the fact that it is found in Frisian sources shows it was a Germanic name, and could have appeared in other tongues as well. And Beda/Bede has little to show for being typically Ingvaeonic, unless it derives from *Bada, of course, but then Old-english would have spelled it "ae" not "e", in most writing traditions (not Kentish, I believe). No, Frisian and Saxon varieties were close from the start, and preserved that (which for Frisian was quite an achievement; Saxon lost most of its typical Ingvaeonic features, while preserving some of them, like monophtongisation and words like "fi^f" and "us" (for "uns", but I believe only in some dialects, not all), and also some of the morphological features (which are more deeply embedded in grammar and harder to get rid of, see Town Frisian and other mixed languages). > (Actually, a certain member of the family is looking over my shoulder > and strongly objecting to some of the assertions I'm making here, > but anyway, though this isn't something I know much about, I thought > it might be worthwhile to put the subject up for discussion amongst > the more knowledgeable!) > > Sandy > http://scotstext.org/ Henno Brandsma ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] At 22:57 29/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: >Ron asked when the Gaelic tongue was banned or outlawed. Between 1695 and >about 1725, after the Jacobite uprising was put down by the English >Government and the Clans loyal to England, it was outlawed and all schools >that were erected thereafter sought to erase the tongue, and succeeded in >most parts of Scotland except the highlands controlled by the MacDonalds, >who were at times almost a country unto themselves. It's common knowledge that, for a very long time, Gaelic and its speakers were oppressed and discriminated against. However, the words "banned" and "outlawed" imply more than that - they imply that merely using (speaking or writing) Gaelic was actually a *criminal act*, for which one could be tried in court and sentenced if found guilty. May we please have a reference to the statute that brought about this situation, and its year? Colin Wilson. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Sandy Fleming wrote: >>Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to have gone unrecorded? I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? << Lowena dhys, Sandy, Interesting theory. And why would a family member of yours object to it??? A Professor at Uni years ago asked in a lecture who the Germanic peoples were who settled in Britain ca.AD 450 and the Angles and Saxons and Jutes were recalled instantly. But then he asked who knew of another Germanic tribe most probably involved, but hardly mentioned, and cocky little me said "The Frisians". So there does seem to be a general agreement on the fact that the Frisians were involved in the settlement. Several placenames also point to this, however they are not numerous. Also judging from place names we can see that it is quite impossible to locate specific areas certain tribes came from. There is correlation to a certain extent but looking at the map one can see that place names and their formatives are found throughout northern and surprisingly enough, western central Germany, the Netherlands and north western Belgium. Jutland is not even represented too much, but this can be owing to the fact that Jutish names may have been replaced by later Danish settlers. So it is difficult to believe that Frisians were not involved in the settlement. My own theory is, (well it`s not my own, but I`ve read similar theories along the same lines, and sort of picked the best bits out) that the number three had some sort of significance in Germanic/Christian/mediaeval history, so three tribes on three ships is something that sounds great in a mediaeval history account. Many of these accounts though factual in their base, cannot be taken at face value. I would say there were many more tribes involved in the settlement - even Swabians for example, who lived futher north around 400, so some went to Britain and others went to South-Western Germany and took their respactive place-names with them. It is quite possible that Bede was of Frisian descent, but was he aware of it himself? I don`t think ethnicity was so important once settlement had taken place, and emphasis had changed to controlling, conquering and intermarrying with the local population, i.e. British/Welsh. Bede is supposed to have lived from ?673-735 so he was English, the arrival of his ancestors lying back at least 150 years. Concerning the language situation: I do not believe in a period of Anglo-Frisian linguistic unity. The West Germanic dialects along the North Sea coast formed a continuum, tribal designations and their political connections loose and fluctuating. I`m sure their languages were mutually intelligible. I do not believe that the Anglo-Saxon tribes/kingdoms have direct continental correspondents that can be pinpointed as easily as: "the utes moved to Kent and the Angles moved from Angeln to the Humber area". I believe people from all these areas came to Britain and formed three initially separate areas in which their dialects were levelled. When these respective settlements expanded and joined the next settlement there was more levelling until an English dialect continuum was formed. Hence Bede`s theory of three tribes. It a simpler explanation for the historical fact of three settlement areas, and I`m afraid it does not have much to do with tribes. Large areas of Northern Germany is reported to have bee depopulated, which means that the old continental dialect continuum had broken apart. Tribes from further south were now moving northwards to take their setlements, sometimes habitation continuity broke off for more than a century. The inhabitants of the North Frisian isles seem to have taken part in the emigration wave (of course they weren´t Frisians at that time). There are also reports of areas being resettled by returnees. The Frisian language is a relic of this old North Sea Germanic dialect continuum. North Saxon and West Flemish developed closer to the language of the southern newcomers, but retained a North Sea Germanic substrate. English in its insular position also retained its North Sea Germanic character. Two and a half centuries later the Frisians settled in the North Frisian isles, and another three centuries later East Frisians were invited by a Danish king to settle and cultivate the North Frisian mainland. I believe many of the features inherent to North Sea Germanic caused both Frisian and Old English to undergo similar developments seperately. Patrik V.Stiles in his extremely interesting article "Remarks on the `Anglo-Frisian´ Thesis", establishes a relative chronology for both Frisian and English (he explains this at length, but I will not go into that): "Relative Chronology for English: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /á/. (3) Monophthongization of */ai/ to long /á/. (4) Fronting of short */a/, including the development */au/ to /aeo/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Breaking (6) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (7) Palatal Diphthongisation. (8) i-mutation. Relative Chronology for Frisian: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /á/. (3) Monophthongization of +/ai/ and */au/. (4) Fronting of short */a/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (6) i-mutation. (7) Breaking." He writes further: "The Invaeonic Model and the Position of Old Saxon: Above, it has been established that English and Frisian shared relative chronology of sound-changes cannot be constructed with certainty beyond change (2). Changes (1), (1a) and (2) hardly suffice to establish an exclusive Anglo-Frisian sub-proto-language - all the more so, as these changes also form part of the relative chronology of Old Saxon. [.....] Indeed, one could make out a case for a closer genetic relationship between Frisian and (some varieties of) Old Saxon than between Frisian and English, in so far as parts of Old saxon can probably share the relative chronology (Frisian) up to at least point (4). [.......]" I will also quote his summary of results, as I concur with all of it: "In this article I have attempted to show that the evidence does not support the notion of an `original Anglo-Frisian unity´ or sub-proto-language. This is bcause it is not possible to construct the exclusive common relative chronology that is necessary in order to be able to establish a node on a family tree. The term and concept of ´Anglo-Frisian´ should be banished to the hitoriography of the subject. Rather, English and Frisian descended largely from adjacent dialect groupings in the Ingvaeonic continuum and thus share a number of exclusive isoglosses (as do in their turn English and Old saxon, and Frisian and Old saxon). It does appear to be the case that the isoglosses that are recoverable from that period justify our regarding English and Frisian as ´more closely related´ to each other than to Low German. Because of the circumstances attending the attestation of Old saxon and Old Dutch - the relatively sparse documentation, possible orthographic complications, and the progressive retreat, already from prehistoric times, of ´Ingvaeonic´ features in the favour of ´inland´ones - the state of affairs from the Old periods of the three languages onward is that English and Frisian show a high degree of resemblance to each other bcause of theirstatus as Invaeonic relic areas" Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ---------- From: pieter meester pieter.meester at hetnet.nl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Beste allemaal Sandy Fleming wrote under more 2002-12-29: > Subject: "Frisians" > > Lowlanders, > > Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English > language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to > have gone unrecorded? > Having done some little reseach recently, I would like to add some findings to Sandy Fleming's most interesting remarks about the influence of Frisian on English. I am also struck by the impression that there is quite some similairity between Frisian and English. Lately I have read a book written by the Dutch writer Theun de Vries, called "Het zwaard, de zee en het valse hart". He used historical figures to compose this roman, but I have reason to believe, it is partly also faction. He describes how a Frisian tribe led by 'dukes' Hengist and Horsa helped the English king Vortigern to beat the Pict and Scot in northern England at about 450. These Frisians however liked living at the other side of the North-Sea and occupied the soutwest of England, let's say Kent, and made Canterbury their capital city. They happely mixed with the locals and consequently you might expect there is reason to assume English is partly based on Frisian (perhaps even a Frisian dialect..., just kidding). Heaving read this book, I looked for historical information and found different sources, some stating Hengist and Horsa were Jutten (Danes) but others stating they are Frisians. (Most convicing was a comprehensive old Dutch text at http://home.planet.nl/~palst004/vanderAA/Friezen.html). (I won't raise the issue of the relation between Jutten and Frisisans, but I learned they, West Juts and Frisians do understand each other quite well). Is there someone who can contribute to the theory that Frisian is a major source for modern English, or just can falsify this? Also Sandy's question about the origin of Beda Venerabilis is of great interest to me. Pieter Meester pieter.meester at hetnet.nl ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks to Sandy for revisiting one of my favorite "mystery" topic of why English and Scots are so closely related to Frisian when Frisians are hardly ever mentioned in the history of Germanic settlement of Britain. Thanks also for the many interesting responses (above). Henno's account makes a lot of sense: contacts between Frisians and the Jutish, Anglish and Saxon migrants from what are now Southern Denmark and Northern Germany, plus sustained trading contacts between Friesland and the British Isles -- nothing so "spectacular" as to be recorded as notable historical events. However, I still wonder if such relatively loose contacts would suffice to account for the close relationship between Frisian on the one hand and English and Scots on the other hand. I remain reluctant to let go of my "wild hypothesis," or "hunch," that the contacts were closer, more intimate than that, namely that among the migrants dwelling *among* Frisians en route to Britain there was a preponderance of males (such as non-first sons in search of new land to own), and they stayed in Friesland long enough to develop relationships with Frisian females and took them with them across the Channel -- namely that Old Frisian influenced the early development of Old English as a maternal language. Is there anything that might support this "guess"? Gabriele (with one "L") wrote (above): > I suppose that one strong influence which helped to label Lower Saxon as > "cute", or "a funny little dialect" is the famous Ohnsorg-Theater in > Hamburg. Their plays are often broadcast on TV, and they are always > comedies. Also, they are performed in "Missingsch", a watered-down version > of Lower Saxon which can easily be understood by any High German speaker, > leading them to believe that this is truly "Platt". The use of German with a "Platt" twist was reserved for *national* broadcast in a series of "folk theater" performances (including Rhenish and Bavarians plays). It ought to be stressed that the Ohnsorg Theater usually performs in genuine Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and had to rewrite/translate the scripts specifically for those national broadcasts. This was not the only thing that angered lots of North Germans (many of whom complained that Bavarian broadcasts never used watered-down Bavarian). Much worse was the fact that there was no disclaimer, no announcement to say that these were *translated* versions. In other words, it might be characterized as willful deception. (This would be similar to selling Scottish English with a sprinkling of well-known Scots words and expressions as "Scots" without an explanation, thus reinforcing the popular myth that Scots is an English dialect group.) For most South Germans that was the only exposure to what they thought was "Platt" (Lowlands Saxon); they had "bought" the deception. As I related at least once before, South Germans once told me that they loved listening to "Platt" and asked me to give them a real-life demonstration; they were quite indignant when they didn't understand anything I said ("Not like that! Like Ohnsorg!") and dismissed it as "some sort of Dutch" when I wrote it down ... Yes, the predominance of humorous and old-time romance in Lowlands Saxon literature certainly contributes to the perception of the language as "cute" and "funny" in a "folksy" and "country" way. In my opinion, another reason for this "cute" perception of "Platt" even among North Germans (who more or less understand it but cannot speak or write it themselves) has something to do with the attitude that LS is not a separate language and that using the language is tantamount to getting away with "talkin' rough" in public, relating LS words with their German cognates because of insufficient understanding of the language in its own right. Sometime ago a friend wrote telling me that he loved to listen to the LS news and weather reports on his way to work, because it helps him "start the day with a good laugh or too," such as _Tja, Lüüd’, vunwegen dat Smuddelwedder na’n Snee is dat hüüt morgen man bloots Modder un Schiet up de Straten_ ("Well, folks, due to this morning's drizzle after a period of snow it's nothing but mud and dirt on the roads."). From a "High" German point of view, this sounds very "earthy": the seemingly informal tone together with the use of _Schiet_ (= German _Scheiße_ 'shit') which in LS can be used to denote 'dirt', 'mess' or 'bad situation' without sounding coarse and offensive. This perception of "cutely naughty" is thus totally German-centered. > Speaking of Wilhelm Busch - I have translated some of his poems into English > and hope to do more some day. For a sample, have a look at > http://www.rivertext.com/busch.shtml. Nice translations! But I have always thought of Wilhelm Busch as a German writer, albeit a Northerner, rather than a LS writer. What works of his are in LS? The only one I am aware of is _Ut ôler Welt_ (Munich: Lothar Joachim, 1910), and that appears to be a collection of (handed-down, recorded?) tales. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 20:04:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:04:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: Happy New Year in Lowlands Languages/Countries Dear Ron and Lowlanders, My greetings and best wishes for a happy 2003. I would like to learn how to wish a Happy New Year on all the Lowlands languages as well as knowing if there are any popular songs (or anything else, besides partying) to celebrate the coming year on the Lowlands countries/languages. (i.e. - in Brazil, people sing a song called ''Adeus Ano Velho, Feliz Ano Novo'', which means ''Goodbye Old Year, Happy New Year'') By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) Best wishes, Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Santos, Brazil ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Oi, Reynaldo! > By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) How to say "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!" in the Lowlands varieties has come up several times before. I just took a peek at our archive and list below what we have so far (without the merry Christmas part): Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! English: Happy New Year! Frisian, East (Saterland): Glücksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluksäls Näijier! Frisian, North (Feerings, Föhr): Fröölig neijuar! Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Lowlands Saxon (Eastern Friesland): Glückelke Nejen Jahr! Lowlands Saxon (Northern): 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! ~ 'n Mooi(et) Nijaar! Lowlands Saxon (Mennonite): Een jlekjeljet Niejoah! Lowlands Saxon (Westphalian): Kommt gued in't Niejaohr! Scots: A guid New Year! Of course, this leaves many other varieties to be added. The now virtually international New Year's song is a Scots one, usually sung horribly mispronounced. You can find it here along with Sandy Flemings phonetic transcription and my (singable) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) translation (also with a phonetic transcription): http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/auld_lang_syne.htm Abraços, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 20:18:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:18:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.30 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.29 (02) [E] But surely Colin -"come away ben" - is only used when inviting someone into your house - at least that is how we would use it in Edinburgh. I don't know of a more general Scots equivalent for welcome when used in the situation of greeting people to an occasion - A'll hae tae awae an think on yon!! Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Expressions By the way, this _ben_ 'inside' in the said Scots expression sounds quite familiar to speakers of Lowlands Saxon (Low German). LS for 'inside' is _binnen_ [bIn(:)]. We could say something like _Kaam (man) na binnen!_ (or _Kaam (man) rin!_) to ask someone to enter. Movement calls for _na_ 'to(ward)', while _binnen_ alone denotes location (e.g., _He is binnen_ 'He is inside'). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:10:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:10:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (04) [E/L] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl Subject: Holidays Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! English: Happy New Year! Frisian, East (Saterland): Glücksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluksäls Näijier! Frisian, North (Feerings, Föhr): Fröölig neijuar! Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Lowlands Saxon (Eastern Friesland): Glückelke Nejen Jahr! Lowlands Saxon (Northern): 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! ~ 'n Mooi(et) Nijaar! Lowlands Saxon (Mennonite): Een jlekjeljet Niejoah! Lowlands Saxon (Westphalian): Kommt gued in't Niejaohr! Scots: A guid New Year! Limburgish: e good nujaor! en det wunsj ich uch den ouch alleneij hiel gaer tow... Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:12:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:12:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.30 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes.>> Harlan Ross May responded: >>To look with pride upon one's own personal accomplishments is gross pretentionsness. But the pride of a people is something greater than self.<< Lowena dheugh why oll, I concur with Gabriele here. Pride in one`s own achievment has absolutly nothing to do with gross pretentiousness. Pride does not necessarily mean boasting. One can feel ties or links to one`s descent, but pride - I don`t know - feels kind of weird to me. I keep seeing people waving flags about singing patriotic songs and following THE STRONG MAN. I can not feel proud of the blood that my ancestors shed. It´s just another painful war in history. I know what I´m talking about. My mixed heritage grants me the possibility to look at the greater picture from all sides. My Irish and Jewish background, need I say more. Uncles fighting in WWII on opposing sides etc. blood, blood, misery, destruction, proverty, starvation, fear. There´s no room for pride there I´m very sorry. Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:44:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:44:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (06) [E/LS/Cornish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] R. F. Hahn wrote: >> I remain reluctant to let go of my "wild hypothesis," or "hunch," that the contacts were closer, more intimate than that, namely that among the migrants dwelling *among* Frisians en route to Britain there was a preponderance of males (such as non-first sons in search of new land to own), and they stayed in Friesland long enough to develop relationships with Frisian females and took them with them across the Channel -- namely that Old Frisian influenced the early development of Old English as a maternal language. Is there anything that might support this "guess"? Reinhard/Ron<< Ron Wheg, Although I usually like "wild" and have a weak spot for radical theories, I don`t think your hypothesis fits. I haven`t read or heard anything pertaining to this idea. I`d call it a nice bedtime-story. The similarities between Old Frisian (which is attested quite a bit later, and actually corresponds with Early Middle English) and English seem to be old and very unlike the result of influence from one variety. They are the consequence of similar phonological changes in closely related dialects/languages. In many respects, unlike their similar outcome, they work quite differently. As pointed out in my previous post, functional changes seem closer to some Old Saxon dialects than to English (I say English here and not Scots, because Germanic speaking Scots still called their language Inglis right into the later Middle Ages, which does not mean it wasn`t Scots. It was Northumbrian on both sides of the Scottish/English border). I shall submit the posting again, maybe for a closer read: Concerning the language situation: I do not believe in a period of Anglo-Frisian linguistic unity. The West Germanic dialects along the North Sea coast formed a continuum, tribal designations and their political connections loose and fluctuating. I`m sure their languages were mutually intelligible. I do not believe that the Anglo-Saxon tribes/kingdoms have direct continental correspondents that can be pinpointed as easily as: "the utes moved to Kent and the Angles moved from Angeln to the Humber area". I believe people from all these areas came to Britain and formed three initially separate areas in which their dialects were levelled. When these respective settlements expanded and joined the next settlement there was more levelling until an English dialect continuum was formed. Hence Bede`s theory of three tribes. It a simpler explanation for the historical fact of three settlement areas, and I`m afraid it does not have much to do with tribes. Large areas of Northern Germany is reported to have bee depopulated, which means that the old continental dialect continuum had broken apart. Tribes from further south were now moving northwards to take their setlements, sometimes habitation continuity broke off for more than a century. The inhabitants of the North Frisian isles seem to have taken part in the emigration wave (of course they weren´t Frisians at that time). There are also reports of areas being resettled by returnees. The Frisian language is a relic of this old North Sea Germanic dialect continuum. North Saxon and West Flemish developed closer to the language of the southern newcomers, but retained a North Sea Germanic substrate. English in its insular position also retained its North Sea Germanic character. Two and a half centuries later the Frisians settled in the North Frisian isles, and another three centuries later East Frisians were invited by a Danish king to settle and cultivate the North Frisian mainland. I believe many of the features inherent to North Sea Germanic caused both Frisian and Old English to undergo similar developments seperately. Patrik V.Stiles in his extremely interesting article "Remarks on the `Anglo-Frisian´ Thesis", establishes a relative chronology for both Frisian and English (he explains this at length, but I will not go into that): "Relative Chronology for English: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /á/. (3) Monophthongization of */ai/ to long /á/. (4) Fronting of short */a/, including the development */au/ to /aeo/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Breaking (6) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (7) Palatal Diphthongisation. (8) i-mutation. Relative Chronology for Frisian: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /á/. (3) Monophthongization of +/ai/ and */au/. (4) Fronting of short */a/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (6) i-mutation. (7) Breaking." He writes further: "The Invaeonic Model and the Position of Old Saxon: Above, it has been established that English and Frisian shared relative chronology of sound-changes cannot be constructed with certainty beyond change (2). Changes (1), (1a) and (2) hardly suffice to establish an exclusive Anglo-Frisian sub-proto-language - all the more so, as these changes also form part of the relative chronology of Old Saxon. [.....] Indeed, one could make out a case for a closer genetic relationship between Frisian and (some varieties of) Old Saxon than between Frisian and English, in so far as parts of Old saxon can probably share the relative chronology (Frisian) up to at least point (4). [.......]" I will also quote his summary of results, as I concur with all of it: "In this article I have attempted to show that the evidence does not support the notion of an `original Anglo-Frisian unity´ or sub-proto-language. This is bcause it is not possible to construct the exclusive common relative chronology that is necessary in order to be able to establish a node on a family tree. The term and concept of ´Anglo-Frisian´ should be banished to the hitoriography of the subject. Rather, English and Frisian descended largely from adjacent dialect groupings in the Ingvaeonic continuum and thus share a number of exclusive isoglosses (as do in their turn English and Old saxon, and Frisian and Old saxon). It does appear to be the case that the isoglosses that are recoverable from that period justify our regarding English and Frisian as ´more closely related´ to each other than to Low German. Because of the circumstances attending the attestation of Old saxon and Old Dutch - the relatively sparse documentation, possible orthographic complications, and the progressive retreat, already from prehistoric times, of ´Ingvaeonic´ features in the favour of ´inland´ones - the state of affairs from the Old periods of the three languages onward is that English and Frisian show a high degree of resemblance to each other bcause of their status as Invaeonic relic areas" Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ea, Dan, coweth wheg! Dursona! Thanks a bunch for the very erudite and detailed response! I really appreciate the effort. I'll read it in greater detail later and will return to it at later times for reference. Yeah, sorry you had to burst my little "Frisian mameloshn" bubble ... :( So, another bedtime story goes down the tubes. But -- hey! -- we're here to learn, not to live in Lala-Land. The explanation that depopulation was involved (which I had known) and then repopulation from the south -- thus major shifts and mixing both on the British Isles and back on the continent, consequently mutual estrangement (even before Norman and German influences) -- makes a lot of sense, and it also explains many a discrepancy between Old Saxon and Middle Saxon (not to mention the modern dialects). Dan, what do you think of the theory of regarding German (including Alemannic, Yiddish, etc.) as belonging to a "South Germanic" branch, as has been suggested a few times? > Gans oll ow holon vy, Ja, as gans oll holen se mi faken ook. ;) (Please don't take this Saxon reaction as making fun of Cornish!) Gans oll an collon vy -- yehes ha sowena! (Hey! We speak slightly different dialects! ;) ) Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 01:26:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:26:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, Just to add the Northumbrian New Year greeting - 'Hev aa heppy new yeor', and 'Aal thi best'. best wishes, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 15:39:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:39:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.30 (05) [E] Paul's reply supporting Gabrielle's remarks seemed to me to be an extension of the same attitude. The area of the United States from which I write has been called by some writers "The Celtic South", and with good reason. I suppose our attitudes in many things came with our ancestors, who were mostly Celts of one country or the other. I heard another writer say that a telephone directory in Mississippi reads like one in Belfast. (Scots-Irish, or "Scotch-Irish as it used to be called) Paul's split ancestry is not uncommon in the United States, nor is pride in the "Motherland" or the "Fatherland". I suppose that there are many in the world with an attitude similar to Paul and Gabrielle, and I say that that is your prerogative, and it fits in nicely with the "one world" philosophy. I will not mention that again, and will try to stick to factual, or things that I believe to be factual, about languages with which I am familiar and have studied. I am very interested in everything that is discussed on this site, and have learned a great deal the short time that I have been a subscriber. I will try to keep things on an impersonal basis. If I err, or make an equivocable statement, please reply to the message, but don't behead the messenger, and I will do the same. If my replies are colored by my conservatism, sobeit. But, I do not subscribe to the school of political correctness. If I use a term, such as, "uncivilized world", instead of the politically correct term,"developing world," please do not correct me. Political Correctness reminds me of a painted stage set, with a paper moon. Now to reply to the other criticism. The Act of 1695 by the English Parliament established English schools, for the express purpose of finally doing away with the "Irish" tongue as it was called. There were stiff penalties for not teaching English, and continuing to use and allow the "savage" language to be used. That is what the respected Scottish author, Fitzroy MacLean wrote in his book, "Scotland". He has been paraphrased by other respected authors. The next Parliamentary act disarmed the Scottish people (sound familiar?) to better control them, and some Scots actually stopped carrying weapons, but very few. The government of George the First didn't need law to act, anyway, as evidenced by the Massacre of Glencoe, an act to set an example to the rest of the Scots. Enough of this history. I will get kicked-off for digression. Sorry. I have another new comment that brings to mind a "language" mentioned in the heading, A-Appalachian. Now, I love to discuss that dialect, since it hits home with me. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 15:42:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:42:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (04) [E/L] Mathieu mentioned the language of the people from the Netherlands who were settled in South Africa. Is it a separate language or just a dialect unto itself? I notice that some of the spellings are different. Could the way that they speak the language be archaic or did the language or dialect change as language is prone to do? Ross May [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Ross May wrote: > But then, again, that is why some nations can never rise above > their own passiveness. They are satisfied with mediocrity, and lack that > indefinable feeling called, for lack of a better name, "pride". If you > can't conceive it, you can't really understand it. Yes, I understand all too well, and that's why I'm restricting my answer to a sad little headshake. But, despite this attitude in many people, I, too, continue to hope. Ron, I'll try to dig deep (no time today, I'm afraid) to see whether Busch actually wrote anything completely in Platt. He did use it a lot of in direct speech; he would describe a situation in High German, and then have a (mostly rural) character say something in Platt. One example would be two lines preceding the ones I recently quoted as an example for a double negative: "Wat het he segt?!" So tönt's im Chor - fünf Besen heben sich empor. Another example would be the following passages from "Fips der Affe": Mit den Schreckensworten: "Da kummt de Dübel!" Fällt sie in einen dastehenden Kübel. Doch Dümmel schreit und kennt ihn gleich wieder: "Dat is de verdammtige Haaresnieder!" ... Sie alle machen großmächtige Schritte, Und plötzlich ruft einer: "Kiek, kiek, da sitt'e!" Given the great popularity of Wilhelm Busch's works in Germany to this day, such lines sprinkled within the "understandable" text often constitute the first time many people are exposed to Lower Saxon "Platt". Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 16:03:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:03:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.31 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: ''Dinner For One'' in Lowlands Saxon Dear Lowlanders, I have just found out on a website (german.about.com) a link for the Lowlands Saxon version of ''Dinner For One'' - A British play that has become a tradition in the New Year's Eve in Germany - according to the website. *Maybe, our fellow Germans can confirm that (or not). Though, it's not a ''Lowlands'' subject, itself.* I, myself, enjoy reading the postings in Lowlands Saxon, even though, I cannot understand them very well, I can get along; depending on the spelling used. However, I have never had the chance to listen* to any dialogue so far, nor anything in Lowlands Saxon, which, disappoints me (or used to). The German radio station ''Radio Bremen'' is broadcasting online this Lowlands Saxon version and I thought that it could be of interest of many members. Abendeeten för een - http://www.radiobremen.de/online/abendeeten/ I hope you enjoy this link. The link is in German and there you can also find the script (which, I liked very much!) in Lowlands Saxon. (Lowlands Saxon = Low German = Plattdeutsch) Feliz Ano Novo! Happy New Year! Een Gelukkige Nieuwjaar! 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! A guid New Year (cool!)! Best Regards, Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Santos, Brazil ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Reynaldo, Thanks for the resource tip! Yes, indeed, the English (British) play "Dinner for One" has become a New Year's Eve tradition in Germany, being shown in the original on television since the 1960s. The original play calls for two actors: an aged upper-class lady and her at least as aged and no longer agile butler. It has very little dialog (butler: "Same as last year, Ma'am?", lady: "Yes, James, same as last year."), and the rest relies on slapstick stunts (as the butler gets more and more drunk), which is why it has been shown untranslated and has always enjoyed much popularity, in part because most viewers are at least tipsy by the time it comes on. (I believe that enjoying it so much year after year *requires* you to be drunk.) So far I had only heard that there was a Lowlands Saxon version, and I thought there wasn't much to be translated, and much of the fun would be lost with the high-class English pronunciatio gonen. So I am greatful to you for pointing out the website, which gave me an opportunity to read the script and to listen to the sound file. I can report that it is only very, very loosely based on the original English play, even has a dog as the narrator, is really a new play with an entirely different tone and atmosphere, in large part because it has been made into a *radio* play (i.e., is minus the visual stunts), and it has been converted to follow the usual folk comedy tradition to which the language has been relegated. At any rate, it may be a useful resource for many of our subscribers, because they get to read the script while listening to the performance, a rare opportunity for many. Cheers, and happy New Year! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:24:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:24:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (04) [Ap/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] 2 remarks: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > > Oi, Reynaldo! > > > By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) > > How to say "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!" in the Lowlands varieties > has come up several times before. I just took a peek at our archive and > list below what we have so far (without the merry Christmas part): > > Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! > Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! > English: Happy New Year! > Frisian, East (Saterland): Glücksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluksäls Näijier! I suppose the first is the Lowlands Saxon version as used in Saterland? The language is quite common there, even though the "original" language is Saterfrisian. The "johr" part gives it away (no palatal vowel). Also, näi for new is correctly spelled (well, there are (unfortunately) more than spelling system for this lovely language (which they are very surprised about when anybody from outside their region, eg. me.., has bothered to learn, but they all agree on this..). Of course, Gluk- is a loan from Lowland Saxon, but the vowel (an [o]-like sound, somewhere between [u] and [o] actually) is not identical to the Lowlands Saxon, due to lack of i-mutation. It could they that it was borrowed from Saxon while Saterfrisian still lacked the phoneme "ü", (it unrounded this sound before) and changed it to something close. Just wondering. > Frisian, North (Feerings, Föhr): Fröölig neijuar! > Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Literally, this is true. But more common as a wish (in my family, but I've seen it on post cards as well): Folle lok en seine yn it nije jier! [aside: _folle_ for "much" in this context (no "implied negative", normally you'd say "in soad", "in protte" or such a word, but "net folle" IS correct) would be ungrammatical. But in this wish only it is used as such..] Henno Brandsma ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (07) [E] Hey! Hae yuins a guid new year, an keep yuins wail. A'll be tae home this New Year's Day o th mornin, an a-kerryin out no ashes. The night afore'll be spent quiet-like, a-thankin on the year done gone. Gone years ago is any playparty er music makin fer thisun. The still o night's too precious tae waste! Hog jowl an greens an black-eye peas'll be et o th day, oer tae Mother's house. Hog jowls is fer health an greens an peas fer wealth, accordin tae them as is superstitious. They ere mighty guid, an wi cornbread er frybread either. An buttermilk. Aw at comes atter church, o course, hit bein eight days atter New Christmas. (w'Mebarekh `Idha Dagzurta!) Come go wi us! Yorn, +Fr Andreas Richard Turner. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Henno, you wrote above: > > Frisian, East (Saterland): Glücksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluksäls Näijier! > I suppose the first is the Lowlands Saxon version as used in Saterland? Now that you suggested it, I think you are write, although the source listed is as "Sater Frisian." I assume that _Gluksäls Näijier!_ is the actual Saterland East Frisian (Seeltersk) version. Father Andreas, great to "hear" from you again, especially in Appalachian! > The night afore'll > be spent quiet-like, a-thankin on the year done gone. Same here. > Hog jowl an greens an black-eye peas'll be et o th day, oer tae > Mother's house. Hog jowls is fer health an greens an peas fer wealth, > accordin tae them as is superstitious. They ere mighty guid, an wi > cornbread er frybread either. An buttermilk. Again similar here. In our ("proudly") mixed household, special days call for at least one dish as homage to each ingredient of this happy mixture. Tonight and tomorrow it'll be "(collard) greens and black-eye peas" (with smoked chops and smoked tofu instead of "hog jowls") and cornbread for the Euro-Indo-Afro-American South, potato salad and smoked wieners for Northern Germany, potato pancakes (_latkes_) for Eastern Europe (with apple sauce for Northern Germany and sour cream [_smetene_] for Jewish friendships), tabouleh and baba ghanouj for Arabic friendships, Lamingtons for Australia, and millet-and-buttermilk pudding in memory of my Sorbian "Oma". It's eclectic all right, but that's considered a good thing as well as perfectly American here. > Hae yuins a guid new year, an keep yuins wail. And you. Peace and respect to all! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:26:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:26:45 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: <> Dear Harlan Ross May, I`m no fan of bending-over-backwards-political-correctness either, but calling the developing world "uncivilized" was OK in the 19th century, but we are in the 21st today - and your statement is not politically-incorrect, it is an insult to the many culturs and civilisations in the developing world, and a downright provocation. Furthermore I do not understand what you mean by it. You don`t have to call it "developing world", but "uncivilized world" is wrong, and I will continue to correct expressions of this sort, without verbal hygene. Yours respectfully (still), Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:28:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:28:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: <> Dear Harlan Ross May, I`m no fan of bending-over-backwards-political-correctness either, but calling the developing world "uncivilized" was OK in the 19th century, but we are in the 21st today - and your statement is not politically-incorrect, it is an insult to the many culturs and civilisations in the developing world, and a downright provocation. Furthermore I do not understand what you mean by it. You don`t have to call it "developing world", but "uncivilized world" is wrong, and I will continue to correct expressions of this sort, without verbal hygene. Yours respectfully (still), Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:30:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:30:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (02) [E] [Harlan Ross May] wrote: This variety is a separate language, it has undergone several changes since the settlement. It has its own literary language, and is one of the official languages of South Africa. It is called Afrikaans. Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 18:21:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:21:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.31 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, This is my last administrative message for the year 2002. Since my last administrative message (December 27) we have been joined by people from the following places: Canada: Ontario: Toronto [1] Netherlands: ? [2] Slovakia: ? [1] Ukraine: Kyiv: Kyiv [1] United States of America: Ohio: Mansfield [1] North Olmsted [1] South Carolina: Easley [1] ? [1] A warm welcome to them all. I ask them and everyone else to be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). One rule is not mentioned there, but it is important to mention it once in a while. This rule actually goes without saying, is a default rule on all discussion lists and in more "civilized" chatrooms: No flame-baiting! In electronic debate jargon, "flaming" denotes sending angry responses to a posting; "flame-baiting" denotes the act or habit of posting deliberately provocative messages, messages the sender intends to result in a barrage of "flaming" (out of which he or she gets some sort of kick, if for nothing else then the attention). Diversity of opinions and attitudes is normal and makes for interesting discussions. Flame-baiting, on the other hand, is a provocative and thus aggressive and disruptive act and will not be tolerated. A clear flame-baiting pattern will result in dismissal and barring without warning. (Yes, it *has* happened before, albeit rarely.) If you ever feel truly angered by a posting, my suggestion is to ask yourselves if you are being flame-baited (especially if there is such a pattern) and then to ignore that posting rather than send the desired angry knee-jerk reply, at least take some time to ponder it calmly before replying. Lack of attention tends to make habitual flame-baiters lose interest, leave and try to elicit attention on other lists. We are making steady, albeit currently slow, progress with our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). This is a series of *basic* introductions to the languages of the Lowlands. Please take a look at it, and consider volunteering to speed up the progress. Many thanks to those who have been participating. Some of you are already in 2003 while others are still in 2002. In any case, here is wishing us all the best for 2003, foremost peace, respect and compassion. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:14:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:14:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] At 15:39 31/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > The Act of 1695 by the English >Parliament established English schools, for the express purpose of finally >doing away with the "Irish" tongue as it was called. There were stiff >penalties for not teaching English, and continuing to use and allow the >"savage" language to be used. That is what the respected Scottish author, >Fitzroy MacLean wrote in his book, "Scotland". If the "Irish" tongue referred to is the Gaelic language in Scotland, then the passage above is incorrect whoever wrote it. The English parliament did not legislate for Scotland. Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:16:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:16:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.30 (03) [E/S] At 20:18 30/12/02, Chris Ferguson wrote: >But surely Colin -"come away ben" - is only used when inviting someone into >your house - at least that is how we would use it in Edinburgh. I don't know >of a more general Scots equivalent for welcome when used in the situation of >greeting people to an occasion - A'll hae tae awae an think on yon!! Personally, I'd see it as appropriate to invite someone _ben_ anywhere I was the host, in some way or other. The most obvious example is into ones own home, but I don't see it as being restricted to that. If I had the role of host, greeting people arriving somewhere for some form of hospitality, I'd feel that "come awa ben" was a natural thing to say to them. Still, I agree that it might not be right for every social occasion. Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:36:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:36:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (10) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: A guid New year tae yous aw Juist a wurd -tae wush yous aw a guid new year in aw airts o the Waurld - fae Edinburgh :-) ( Just a word - to wish you all a good new year in all parts of the world - from Edinburgh ) Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Thanks, Chris, an a guid new year tae ye an aw ... Ye're clean gilravagin, bendin the bicker an ithergates haein a grand Hogmanay yonder in bonnie Auld Reekie (Embro) the nou ... Juist 3.5 ours tae gae for yees in ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:43:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:43:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (10) [E/S] Message-ID: Sorry. This got away too early. (No, I'm *not* celebrating.) RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: A guid New year tae yous aw Juist a wurd -tae wush yous aw a guid new year in aw airts o the Waurld - fae Edinburgh :-) ( Just a word - to wish you all a good new year in all parts of the world - from Edinburgh ) Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Thanks, Chris, an a guid new year tae ye an aw ... Ye're clean gilravagin, bendin the bicker an ithergates haein a grand Hogmanay yonder in bonnie Auld Reekie (Embro) the nou ... Juist 3.5 mair ours tae gae for yees in Britain, 11.5 mair for hus here on the Wast Coast o Americae. Just now someone joined us from Beckenham, Kent, England. Welcome, and Happy New Year! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 22:16:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:16:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (09) [E] Whit aboot _ " yous are aw walcome here the nicht tae this Burns supper" ????? ( ye'll hae tae no mind ma spellin - A wisnae iver leant how tae write oor ain leid - juist skelp at the skool fir using it!!! ). Chris Ferguson ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 1 07:19:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] Beste allemaal Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk ik verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van de oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig is met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Dat wij Nederlanders de neiging hebben Engels (of Duits) te spreken met buitenlanders zou ook te maken kunnen hebben met een Nederlandse (handels georienteerde) karakter waarbij iemand zich onwillekeurig verplaatst in de ander, met hem 'meebeweegt'. Vergelijk: als ik tegen iemand ga fluisteren gaat deze meestal ook fluisteren. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 1 15:20:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 07:20:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.01 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.11.29 (02) [E] People in Austria say "f?nf Euro, 35 cent. Most people pronounce the latter word /sEnt/ though some, especially older people will say /tsEnt/, which seems to be a reading pronunciation because of being the letter /tse:/ in the German Alphabet. Dan >>Concerning the "stuiver", "dubbeltje" etc. in the Netherlands, those terms are indeed a thing of the past, the currency is called "Euro", pronounced with the Dutch "Eu" and you will get "tien Cent" back, not a "dubbeltje". How that works in Germany, Belgium etc. I don't know but I have the impression it will be pretty much the same.<< ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Coinage The person Dan quotes above is Stan Levinson , who posted his request for information on Wed, 27 Nov 2002. Please, everyone, familiarize yourselves with the rules and guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Regards, and best wishes for Advent, for Hanukkah and for the remainder of Ramadh?n! __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 04:48:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 20:48:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.11.29 (02) [E] Dear Helga Ik noem tien eurocenten een dubbeltje en vijf een stuiver; ben ik de enige? Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 05:50:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 21:50:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.29 (01) [E] Dag Wim, You wrote: >Hollanders get very rude however when they come to the east of the >country of the Netherlands, they refuse to learn eastern dialects, and >tell us here in the east that our dialects are "hillbillyspeach...", >well, I guess there is a difference between real guests, and >countrymen...too bad.. I have always been fascinated by local speech, so when my parents went living in Weststellingwerf (southern Friesland) I applied myself to the mastering of both Friesian and Stellingwarfs. Apparently, this was so unusual that I was invited by the local radio to explain why on earth I was making these attempts to learn their local tongue... I think people too often associate local speech with a lower social stratum and they also seem to maintain the false conception of a dialect being a 'variety' of Dutch (whereas Dutch has, conversely, been shaped by Friesian and Low Saxon (i.e. the languages of 'the east', as you mention)! Groeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Taal- en Cultuurwebstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ---------- From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800, pieter meester said: > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] > > Beste allemaal > Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende > fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk > ik > verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van > de > oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig > is > met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het > doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich > richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Ik ben zelf vlak aan de grens opgegroeid, en later naar het westen van Nederland verhuisd. Hier bemerk ik niet alleen meer onbekendheid met Duitsland, maar ook een negatiever sentiment. Ich glaube, es gibt noch etwas. Wie weiter man von der Grenze geht, wie mehr anti-Deutsche Sentimente es gibt. Ich bin nah an der Grenze aufgewachsen, und sp?ter nach den Westen gez?gelt. Hier bemerke ich nicht nur eine gr?ssere Unbekanntheit mit Deutschland, aber auch negativere Gef?hle. Vriendelijke groeten / Mit freundlichen Gruss, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, Bedankt voor je antwoord (boven). > Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse > grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Dit is op de andere zij van de grens min of meer ook zo, maar alleen wat kennis betreft. In het algemeen is het image van Nederlanders in Duitsland positief, maar de meeste mensen weten van de vooroordelen tegen Duitsers en heeft dus een "omzichtig positieve" denkwijze. Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens mij voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in een vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding tussen Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 06:02:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 22:02:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.29 (01) [E] Dag Wim, You wrote: >Hollanders get very rude however when they come to the east of the >country of the Netherlands, they refuse to learn eastern dialects, and >tell us here in the east that our dialects are "hillbillyspeach...", >well, I guess there is a difference between real guests, and >countrymen...too bad.. I have always been fascinated by local speech, so when my parents went living in Weststellingwerf (southern Friesland) I applied myself to the mastering of both Friesian and Stellingwarfs. Apparently, this was so unusual that I was invited by the local radio to explain why on earth I was making these attempts to learn their local tongue... I think people too often associate local speech with a lower social stratum and they also seem to maintain the false conception of a dialect being a 'variety' of Dutch (whereas Dutch has, conversely, been shaped by Friesian and Low Saxon (i.e. the languages of 'the east', as you mention)! Groeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Taal- en Cultuurwebstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ---------- From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.01 (01) [D] On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 23:19:16 -0800, pieter meester said: > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.28 (03) [E] > > Beste allemaal > Ik zou graag wat toevoegen aan de discussie. We vergelijken verschillende > fenomenen, denk ik. De aversie van Nederlanders tegen Duitsers heeft denk > ik > verschillende oorzaken, deels het Calimero-effect, deels een restant van > de > oorlog, hoewel volgens mijn waarneming de duitserhaat omgekeerd evenredig > is > met het historisch besef van de betrokken haters. Bovendien zijn het > doorgaans lieden die die oorlog niet hebben meegemaakt, terwijl zij zich > richten tot Duitsers voor wie hetzelfde geldt. Of geloven ze in erfzonde? Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Ik ben zelf vlak aan de grens opgegroeid, en later naar het westen van Nederland verhuisd. Hier bemerk ik niet alleen meer onbekendheid met Duitsland, maar ook een negatiever sentiment. Ich glaube, es gibt noch etwas. Wie weiter man von der Grenze geht, wie mehr anti-Deutsche Sentimente es gibt. Ich bin nah an der Grenze aufgewachsen, und sp?ter nach den Westen gez?gelt. Hier bemerke ich nicht nur eine gr?ssere Unbekanntheit mit Deutschland, aber auch negativere Gef?hle. Vriendelijke groeten / Mit freundlichen Gruss, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, Bedankt voor je antwoord (boven). > Volgens mij speelt er nog iets mee. Hoe verder Nederlanders van de Duitse > grens af wonen, hoe sterker de eventuele anti-Duitse gevoelens zijn. Dit is op de andere zij van de grens min of meer ook zo, maar alleen wat kennis betreft. In het algemeen is het image van Nederlanders in Duitsland positief, maar de meeste mensen weten van de vooroordelen tegen Duitsers en heeft dus een "omzichtig positieve" denkwijze. Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens mij voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in een vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding tussen Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Groeten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 11:24:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 03:24:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (01) [D] wkv at home.nl wim verdoold hoi, ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... en er komen vast nog wel meer namen bye! wim ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 12:04:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:04:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (02) [D/E/German] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language attitudes > > Maar ik geloof, dat vele oudere Nederlandse Nedersaksen in het oosten ook > nog anti-Duitse gevoelens heeft en een afstand willen houden tussen > Nederlandse en Duitse Nedersaksen. Een reunie van de taal, die volgens > mij > voor zijn voortbestaan nodig is, wordt onder hen waarschijnlijk met > tegenstrijdige gevoelens ontvangen. Bij ouderen is dit waarschijnlijk het geval. Maar bij jongeren in de regio zou het toch mogelijk moeten zijn belangstelling voor "oawer 'n poal" te wekken? Zeker nu sommigen meer "regio-bewust" worden als gevolg van de invloed van Europa. > Dus ben ik voor elk stapje naar een > reunie toe heel dankbaar, en ik hoop, dat ons gemeenschappelijke taal in > een > vereenigd Europa kan voortbestaan en kan helpen een oude verbinding > tussen > Nederland and het "Laaglandse" deel van Duitsland her te scheppen. Ik zou graag zien dat cultuur en taal van deze regio behouden blijven, en juich samenwerking op dat gebied zeker toe. Maar helaas hebben de Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als het Plattd?tsch in Duitsland. Het valt natuurlijk niet te ontkennen dat het oostelijk deel van Nederland en het noordwesten van Duitsland zich qua historie, staatsontwikkeling, regelgeving en gemeenschap op een eigen manier hebben ontwikkeld. Voor een verdergaander samenwerkingsverband zouden er dus nog een paar flinke hobbels genomen moeten worden. Vrendelijke groeten, Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Johan Thole (boven): > Maar helaas hebben de > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > het Plattd?tsch in Duitsland. "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden dialecten? Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het Nedersaksisch het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... Wenn Ji vun mehr "Status" un "Uutstrahlen" snackt, wat de neddersassischen (nedderd??tschen) Dialekten in D??tschland anbelangt, denn mutt dat mit Juun Dialekten in de Nedderlannen ja bes?nners b??s? uutsehen! Egaal, up wecke Sied' de Dialekten mehr Ansehn un Uutstrahlen hebbt, een Tosamenkumst un een Tosamenwarken s?nd f?r de hele Spraak vun groot Belang, un all de Dialekten w??rn daar vun V?rdelen trecken. Ik sehg' mehr Wedderstand [tegenstand] in D??tschland as in de Nedderlannen, bes?nners wat wisse Akademiers un Akademien anbelangt. Wor?m? Ik b?n mi nich seker, kann man bloots gissen. B?rokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside the box? Bang v?r de Noodwennigheit Orthographie-Problemen up nich-d??tsche Wies' antopacken, wenn 'n de Spraak as internatschonaal un as egenst?nnig (d.h. nich as nedderlandsch un nich as d??tsch) ankieken mutt? Fr?ndliche Gr?tens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 2 12:13:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 04:13:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Wim Verdoold schreef: > ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... > en er komen vast nog wel meer namen Pleitte geier? Pleitte can ik me nog voorstellen (pleitte= bankrupt) maar geier? Is dat bedoeld als het Duitse woord voor gier (vulture)? Zonder zo'n munt bij de hand is het maar moeilijk zo'n betekenis te ontrafelen ... Groeten, Gustaaf ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Coinage German _Pleitegeier_ "bancruptcy vulture" = 'threat of bancruptcy'; e.g., _?ber der Firma kreist der Pleitegeier_ ("The bancruptcy vulture is circling/hovering above the company" =) 'The company looks like it is facing bancruptcy/might go under/might bite the dust.' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:22:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:22:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (03) [D] Misschien kunnen we weer de oude Joods-Bargoense woorden invoeren; 'spie' voor een cent en 'pegel' voor een Euro. Het muntstuk van 20 cent wordt al door velen 'kwintje' genoemd; naar analogie met het kwartje. Greoeten, Marcel. ********************************************************************* Marcel Bas Voorschoten, Nederland mrbas_26 at hotmail.com E-post / E-mail http://roepstem.tripod.com Heel-Nederlandse Culturele Webstek "So noodsaaklik soos die bloedsomloop vir die liggaam is, so noodsaaklik is die sirkulasie van gedagtes vir n volk." N.P. Van Wyk Louw in 'Liberale Nasionalisme'. ********************************************************************* ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:08:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:08:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Subject: Old English language I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, Yinneger, Finniger. Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Thanks in anticipation. Peter Smith E-Mail: peter.smith100 at ntlworld.com ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Welcome to the List, Peter. I wonder if you are dealing with remnants of a variety of "secret" Travellers' language, related to Shelta (Sheldru) which is primarily Celtic-based. The numbers you provided do not seem to be in any variety of Romany. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:45:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:45:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.28 (02) [E] > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: etymology / vocabulary > > Dear Lowlanders, > > In Shakespeare's "Hamlet" occurs an exclamation which seems to be > unique. In > Act I, Scene 5, line 164, 166, or 172 (depending on the edition), where > Hamlet and Horatio are following the ghost, Horatio exclaims: > > O day and night, but this is wondrous strange! > > This appears to be simply an expression of amazement, although it is > not > clear whether "day" and "night" are intended in the sense of parts of a > period of twenty-four hours, or in the senses 'light' and 'darkness'. > (But > the nearest relatives in Shakespeare appear to be swearing > exclamations such > as "by this day" and "by this light".) > Can anybody tell me anything about this exclamation, its meaning and > origin? > Was it borrowed from another language, perhaps? > > Jaap Engelsman Dag Jaap, We do use the term "dag en nacht" frequently , meaning : altijd (weer). We also have: bij dage en bij nachte (ij = [i]) Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Jaap, Like Luc (above), I have been pondering the famous phrase "O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!" ever since you asked about it. I have always assumed, and I stay with this assumption or hunch (until something better comes along) that it is a case of taboo replacement of Shakespeare's time that later got lost in later common speech. What I have in mind is avoidance of blasphemy ("using the Lord's name in vain"), something along the lines of "Golly!" or "Gosh!" replacing "God!", "Oh, dear (me)!" replacing "Oh, dear God!", "Jee(z)!" replacing "Jesus!", "bloody ...!" replacing "by our Lady!", etc. Perhaps "O, day and night!" replaced something like "Oh, dear God!" at the time. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 16:50:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 08:50:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > From: Peter > Subject: Old English language > My > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > Yinneger, Finniger. > > Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Hi Peter, I heard somewhere that this a relic of the Celtic spoken by local inhabitants well into medieval times. I.e. because of their isolated existence as hill farmers, Brythonic Celtic continued there despite being an linguistic island surrounded by English (and Norse). See: http://www.yewgrove.demon.co.uk/spirits/faery.htm "Much later on in the time of the Norman conquest it was recorded in the Doomsday Book that many Derbyshire land owners were Welsh speaking." Regards, Edward ---------- From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > From: E Sproston [mailto:eds at nordictrans.plus.com] > Sent: 03 December 2002 16:25 > To: Discussion list for Germanic Lowlands languages and cultures > Subject: RE: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] > > > From: Peter > > Subject: Old English language > > My > > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > > Yinneger, Finniger. > > > > Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this > could be? PS - there is an exact discussion on the theme here: http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba48/ba48lets.html "Sheep counting" Edward ---------- From: E Sproston Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (02) [E] And here: http://www.lakelanddialectsociety.org/sheep.htm Edward ---------- From: Glenn Simpson Subject: Old English Language Peter, Saw your thing about the counting system in N Yorks. I know that up to the early 20th C shepards in Cumbria used to use an old British counting system - similar to Welsh. In many northern English Counties this system or variation of it was used up to a hundred years ago. It's a shame that this has virtually died out because it is one of the few examples where British / Welsh language had survived in England - apart from Cornwall of course! Best wishes, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 19:48:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 11:48:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (05) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.28 (02) [E] > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.11.24 (03) [D/E] > > Beste Lowlanders, > > Naar aanleiding van de gesignaleerde varianten kopie en kopij, een > gevolg > van meervoudige ontlening, wijs ik op de diepgaande behandeling van dit > verschijnsel in het Nederlands in Nicoline van der Sijs, > "Leenwoordenboek" > (1996), hoofdstuk III 'Tweelingen en meerlingen' (pp. 509-567!). Op p. > 517 > noemt zij kopij / kopie onder de leenwoorden die tweemaal in > verschillende > perioden aan het Frans zijn ontleend, oud en jong. De voorbeelden met > de > uitgangen -ij respectievelijk -ie zijn: > OUD JONG > galerij galerie > kopij kopie > selderij selderie > Commentaar van Van der Sijs: "In oude leenwoorden op Frans -ie is het > achtervoegsel gewijzigd in -ij, in jonge leenwoorden is -ie > gehandhaafd. > Maar bij deze woorden heeft ook vaak herverfransing een rol gespeeld, > zie > hoofdstuk I, 3.1 'Invloed van het Frans'. Bovendien is het > achtervoegsel > -ij produktief geworden, terwijl -ie nauwelijks produktief is Dag Jaap, Dat kan dan wel zijn voor het algemene Nederlands. Voor het (West)Vlaams is het dat zeker niet. Iedereen schrijft daar wel "ij " maar spreekt het altijd als " ie" uit! (bakkerie-be?nhouwerie-selderie-kopie-galerie-maolderie-visscherie- schilderie-potterie-apothekerie...) Hier vind ik dat het heel leerrijke boek van Nicoline van der Sijs wel een steek laat vallen. Iedereen weet dat West-Vlaams historisch heel belangrijk is voor de geschiedenis van het Nederlands, maar ik merk daar veel te weinig van in haar turf van een woordenboek. Die (her)verfransing is ook niet zo makkelijk te onderzoeken in een taalgebied dat al altijd van twee walletjes gegeten heeft: Frans en Vlaams mengden zich probleemloos in de loop van de geschiedenis. Dat is nu wel aan het verminderen, maar vroeger was het zeker geen uitzondering om een groep mensen in drie zinnen twee talen door elkaar te horen gebruiken. Groetjes LucVanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 22:43:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:43:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.12.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Several persons have joined us since my last administrative message (November 26). Below please find a list of the places in which they reside. I would like to welcome them all and remind them as well as everyone else that all subscribers are expected to be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). I would like everyone new to know and also to remind those who have been with us longer that the flow and specific contents of questions and information in this forum depend on the input of its subscribers. A couple of people signing off have stated as their reason that the information they had sought had not been presented. Too bad those people did not ask for what they wanted, instead sat back passively hoping that their pet subjects would magically appear if only they watched for a while. Sorry. We are not here to entertain you and read your minds. If there is anything Lowlands-related you wish to know or to discuss, please submit postings to that effect. (Just familiarize yourselves with the rules of posting if you have not already done so: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm.) Furthermore, I would like to remind everyone that we could do with some help translating our language introductions (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), especially into French and Spanish. If you are interested in volunteering, please contact me at sassisch at yahoo.com. With friendly regards and wishes for the holiday season, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net *** Australia: South Australia: Whyalla [1] Belgium: Antwerp: Antwerp [1] Canada: Ontario: London [1] France: Pas de Calais: Le Touquet [1] Kuwait: Kuwait City [1] Malaysia: Kelantan: Wakaf Bharu [1] Netherlands: Zuid-Holland: Voorschoten [1] Poland: Malopolskie: Krakow [1] South Africa: Western Cape: Cape Town [1] United Kingdom: England: Leicestershire: Leicester [1] West Yorkshire: Huddersfield [1] Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Pitmedden [1] Dumfries-shire: Glasgow [1] United States of America: California: Greenbrae [1] Illinois: Altamont [1] Michigan: Grandville [1] ? [1] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 22:48:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 14:48:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Shepherds Score The Shepherds Score counting survived into the 20th century in Northwest Georgia. A friend of mine from Whitfield County, now in his early 50's recalls his grandmother's bouncing him on her lap saying: Een, teen, tether, feather, sather, lather, have another dig, eeny dig, teeny dig, terry dig, fairy dig, bumpsit, eeny bumpsit, teeny bumpsit, terry bumpsit, fairy bumpsit, gidgit. (If my memory serves me.) A comparison with Welsh numbers will confirm it's of some sort of Brythonic origin. Unfortunately, he does not know where his grandmother learned it. Kevin McAuliff ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 23:39:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 15:39:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Lamguage varieties" > From: Peter > Subject: Old English language > > I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have > been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets > in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than > modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My > informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, > Yinneger, Finniger. I posted some comments about this in March this year, so you can read it in the Archives. I can't figure out how to get the URL for a particular posting, so here's the relevant part... As for Brythonic (or "Cymric") in Scotland, I was recently reading an interesting article in the December 1922 edition of the Transactions of the Rymour Club, Edinburgh. It was "Dumfriesshire Rhymes" by Joseph Laing Waugh, who was writer in Scots and a native of Dumfriesshire. Those who follow this sort of thing might be interested in reading some of his assertions about the language in his own locality: It may be interesting to you to know that in counting the numerals up to ten the shepherds in the hill districts still use a speech which by experts is said to be the only remnant left of a distinct language which is known as the Strathclyde Cymric. The kingdom of Strathclyde in the seventh century embraced Cumberland, Westmorland, and the shires of Dumfries, Ayr, Renfrew, Lanark, and Peebles, and sustained with vicissitudes its national character for fully 400 years. Its inhabitants were of two varieties of the British race?-the southern half, including Dumfriesshire, being inhabited by the Cymrie or Welsh the northern by the Damonii or Cornish. Its two most important towns were Carlisle in the south and Dumbarton in the north. Zeendi, Hecturi, Teendi, Zecturi, Taedheri, Aover, Mundheri, Daover, Baombe, Dek. Strange it is that the only fragment of a tongue spoken for so long over so large a part of the country should survive only on the lips of shepherds and old knitting women. I don't know where the assertion that the Damonii were Cornish comes from, but it's certainly interesting to ponder that a form of Cornish may once have been spoken in Scotland! Can anyone offer further enlightenment on this? For comparison, modern Welsh numbers are: Un, Chwech, Dau, Saith, Tri, Wyth, Pedwar, Nau, Pump, Deg. Modern Cornish numbers are (masculine): Onen, Hwegh, Dew, Seyth, Tri, Eth, Peswar, Nau, Pymp, Deg. Two, three and four also have feminine forms diw, teyr, peder, showing more clearly the affinity with "taedheri". It's interesting to note that in Cornish there's the distinction between "onen" = Scots "ane", and "unn" = Scots "ae". Has this feature come into Scots from the Brythonic substrate? The above counting system is still found in children's rhymes in Scotland (or was until very recently?), eg: Zeenty-peenty, heathery-mithery, Bumfy leery over dover; Saw the King o Heazle-Peasil Jumpin ower Jerusalem Dyke; Black fish, white troot, Eerie, oorie, you're oot! This one gets at least as far as nine, but it misses something on the way! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Counting And to add to this: Proto-Celtic: 1=oinos 2=dvai 3=treis 4=qetveres 5=qenqe 6=svex 7=septn 8=oct? 9=nevn 10=decn Gaulish: 1=?nos 2=du? 3=treis 4=petor 5=pempe 6=suex 7=sextan 8=oxt? 9=navan 10=decam Devonian (Brythonic): 1 =un 2=deu 3=tri 4=peduar 5=pemp 6=hueh 7=seith 8=eith 9=nau 10=dek Cf.: other Indo-European equivalents, especially 4: Classical Greek (Hellenic): 1= hei:s 2=d?o: 3=trei:s 4=t?ttares 5=p?nte 6=h?x 7=hept? 8=okt?: 9=enn?a 10=d?ka Old Prussian (Baltic): 1=ai:ns 2=dwa:i 3=trijan 4=keturja:i 5=pe:nkja:i 6=*usjai 7=*septi:njai 8=*asto:njai 9=*newi:njai 10=desi:mtan Lithuanian (Baltic): 1=v?enas 2=d? 3=try~s 4=ketur? 5=penk? 6=shesh? 7=septyn? 8=ashtuon? 9=devyn? 10=de:shimt Latvian (Baltic): 1=vi?ns 2=divi 3=tr?:s 4=chetri 5=p?eci 6=seshi 7=septini 8=ast?ni 9=devini 10=desmit Prakrit (Indo-Aryan): 1=ekko: 2=do: 3=tao: 4=chatta:ri 5=pa?cha 6=ch`a 7=satta 8=atta 9=n.ava 10=dasa Proto-Indo-Iranian (reconstructed): 1=aiwas 2=dva: 3=trayas 4=k'atwa:ras 5=pank'a 6=(k)swacsh 7=sapta 8=ashta: 9=nawa 10=daca Indo-European (reconstructed): 1=oynos/sem 2=duwo: 3=treyes 4=kwetwores 5=penkwe 6=sweks 7=septm 8=okto: 9=newn 10=dekm And to return home ... Old Germanic (reconstructed): 1=ainaz 2=twai 3=thrijiz 4=fithwor 5=fimfi 6=seks 7=sibum 8=ahto: 9=niwun 10=tehun Source: http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm#ie Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:41:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:41:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.03 (09) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.23 (01) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate: > Subject: "Orthography" > > > From: John M. Tait jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk > > Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.16 (02) [S] > > > > Is this an ettle ti _describe_ English spellin or ti _justifee_ > > it? (I'm no > > juist shuir whit ye'r sayin maugre ye gie a puckle mair examples.) Thon > > aboot closed an open syllables seems ti me ti be clutchin at clessical > > straes. > > My description mair or less gauns wi Letts "Getting to Grips > with Spelling" (Letts being thon educational/office stationary > publisher here in the UK). It's naither the tane nor the tither, > mair like "prescription bi description". For English spellin I > dout the'r nae ither option - ye canna prescribe till ye'v > described, an wi English spellin ye never come tae the end o > description - or no athoot writin a hale spellin dictionar, > onywey! Amang the beuks A haed a bit keek intae whan pittin 'Wir Ain Leid' thegither wis: Aw bi William Alexander Craigie, 1969 English spelling : Its rules and reasons . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - VIII, 115 pp. Repr. fae. New York 1927 Some anomalies of spelling - [Repr. fae1942 . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - 26 pp. Problems of spelling reform . - Folcroft, Pa. : Folcroft Pr. , 1969 . - 29 pp. Repr.fae1944 Gin A mynd richt (aiblins ower semplifeein it a guid bit) English spellin is foondit on twa 'tradeetions' An Anglo-Saxon ane an a French/Laitin ane. Thon's whaur monie o the contradeections comes fae - ower an abuin sindrie haivers that's been brocht in bi dictionar makers an the like. A read a wheen ither beuks anent English spellin an the history o't an aw but A aye seem tae mynd thir three. Aiblins it wis thaim that pit the maiter ower clearest an semplest. Andy Eagle ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Orthography Folk, A maun say A div lik the spellin "eu" insteid o "ui" (e.g., in "beuk" versus "buik") fine. Gin A mynd richt, the conservative pronunciaition is [?] (as in French _peu_, German _sch?n_ an Norwegian _k?_). "Eu" is eesed (yeused? yeesed?) for [?] in French, the langages o the Netherlands an in Afrikaans an aw. Will ye writ "eu" in aw cases, in "geud" an "ceud" an aw, where "guid" an "cuid"'s mair sitable for the byleids o the north ([gwid], [kwid])? A see "guid" abeun in Andy's postin. What aboot/about "oo" or "ou"? Is it aye "ou" noo/nou, Andy an Sandy? Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:43:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:43:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (08) [E] To Sandy: Is Cornish still a living language? I should mention that I had dinner with a Canadian steelmaker , Syd Melbourne of Dofasco Steel in Montreal about 10 years ago, when he mentioned a most peculiar experience. He and his friends landed by boat on an island in the Chesepeake Bay where they encountered a population that spoke a form of English that no one could understand. After a while though, it began to sound familiar. It then came to him. He had last heard this language while spending his summers in the Cornish countryside as a young child. Then he began to understand the language a bit. Now he described the language as a form of English but is it possible that this population actually spoke the Keltic Cornish language? Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 3 15:46:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 07:46:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (11) [D/E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.02 (05) [D/E] Gustaaf Van Moorsel wrate: > Wim Verdoold schreef: > > > ik ook...en de duitse 2 euro munt noemen we de pleitte geier...lol... > > en er komen vast nog wel meer namen > > Pleitte geier? Pleitte can ik me nog voorstellen (pleitte= > bankrupt) maar geier? Is dat bedoeld als het Duitse woord > voor gier (vulture)? Zonder zo'n munt bij de hand is het > maar moeilijk zo'n betekenis te ontrafelen ... R. F. Hahn wrate: > Subject: Coinage > > German _Pleitegeier_ "bancruptcy vulture" = 'threat of bancruptcy'; e.g., > _?ber der Firma kreist der Pleitegeier_ ("The bancruptcy vulture is > circling/hovering above the company" =) 'The company looks like it is facing > bancruptcy/might go under/might bite the dust.' Is this 'Pleitegeier' mebbes adae wi the fact that the German Govrenment finds itsel in a bittie o a kinch acause o haein tae haud wi ECB policies adae wi states haein siller on lend oot ower the amoont specifee'd bi the ECB (an Euro treaties)? Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:19:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:19:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.12.04 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: the list Hoi allemaal! Ron wrote: I would like everyone new to know and also to remind those who have been with us longer that the flow and specific contents of questions and information in this forum depend on the input of its subscribers. A couple of people signing off have stated as their reason that the information they had sought had not been presented. Too bad those people did not ask for what they wanted, instead sat back passively hoping that their pet subjects would magically appear if only they watched for a while. Sorry. We are not here to entertain you and read your minds. Actually Ron, I don't think you need to defend yourself at this point. I believe our current societal attitudes have a lot to do with people's displeasure. The world, unfortunately for me, does not revolve around me, me, me. You're right. If one never submits their "pet subjects," these topics will never be discussed. And if one does not get help on a particular topic, it may be because no one on the list knows. Ah, if only I knew all. (Zwar weiss ich viel, doch m?chte ich alles wissen - a little Faust) I say, don't let our egos force you into unnecessary apologies. Kevin Browne ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Thanks for your support (above), Kevin, which is very much appreciated, as is your enthusiasm and your preparedness to state what you don't know and wish to know. I also appreciate your efforts to pass on to your students some of the knowledge you gain here. Passing on our knowledge is one of our missions, and a part of that is passing it "down" to the following generations. This is also one of the reasons why I am very, very delighted that we have a lot of quite young people on this list, beginning somewhere in the mid-teens (who have joined with their parents' or guardians' permission). This is also why I feel extremely pleased and encouraged to be "surrounded" by a wonderful, enthusiastic, creative team working on our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), with a good number of rather young friends such as Mathieu van Woerkom (Netherlands), Roman Laryushkin (Ukraine) and Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro (Brazil), to name but a few. This morning we have been joined by two new Lowlanders from the United States, one from Rochester, New York, and one from Lawrence, Kansas. Both of them are interested especially in Low Saxon (Low German) as their ancestral language. I send them a friendly welcome and encourage them to share their interests after familiarizing themselves with our basic rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). It is wonderful to see that there is a steady increase of the number of subscribers in the Americas, Australia and New Zealand who wish to rediscover Lowlands Saxon and other Lowlands languages that used to be used by their ancestors and in their ancestral immigrant communities. With best wishes for the festive season, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:27:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:27:58 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.04 (02) [E/Cornish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Tom, The Cornish language died out in the 1700s. There is a revival movement but the chain of native speakers was broken. The Chesepeake Bay dialect you refer to is well known to dialectologists. It is an archaic English dialect with a lot of southwestern influence certainly - but sorry - Cornish it ain't. Best wishes George Gibault ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Tom Byron wrote: >>Is Cornish still a living language? I should mention that I had dinner witha Canadian steelmaker , Syd Melbourne of Dofasco Steel in Montreal about 10 years ago, when he mentioned a most peculiar experience. He and his friends landed by boat on an island in the Chesepeake Bay where they encountered a population that spoke a form of English that no one could understand. After a while though, it began to sound familiar. :It then came to him. He had last heard this language while spending his summers in the Cornish countryside as a young child. Then he began to understand the language a bit. Now he described the language as a form of English but is it possible that this population actually spoke the Keltic Cornish language?<< Tom Wheg, Yth yw an Kernowek tavas bew unweyth arta. The Cornish language is once again alive. Cornish was no longer a community language by around 1800. There were probably some indivuduals who had knowledge of the language. Sentences, words, phrases, prayers and the numbers were remebered by some as late as the beginning of the 20th century. Fish were counted in Cornish on the fish market in St Ives up to the 1930ies. There were quite a few Cornish emigrants, mostly miners and farmers, to the Americas, but mainly to Australia. How many of them were Cornish speakers is not known. I know of one Cornish speaker in the 18th century who emigrated (I`m not sure whether it was the US or Canada) and corresponded with his family in Cornish. The year 1904 is generally seen as the starting point of the Cornish language revival, which is when Henry Jenner published his "Handbook of the Cornish Language". Today Cornish has approximately 300 fluent speakers, and probably another 2000 or 3000 speakers of varying competence. There are neo-native-speakers, children of Cornish language enthusiasts raised in Cornish. Cornish is also being learnt in many emigrant communities throughout the world. Since there is no community in which the majority (or even a largish minority) consists of Cornish speakers, I very much doubt that whatever your friend Syd Melbourne heard was the Cornish language but rather was dialect English. I think any native speaker of English could spot an English dialect, even if he understood little of it. Cornish is so different that it would have been recognised as an entirely different language instantly. Older Cornish people still speak the English dialect which had replaced the Cornish language. The dialect of eastern Cornwall is a continuation of the dialects of Devon, with little lexical and structural influence from Cornish. The dialect in the West of Cornwall is different in that it has a more noticeable Cornish substratum and is phonologically closer to standard English. But there is phonological influence from Cornish (mainly the diphthong /IU/ instead of EastCornw./Devon /Y/) and the intonation of West Penwith is very distinct and seen to be a survival of Cornish intonational patterns. I should think these last to sentences saved me from being too much off-topic. So if anyone would like to know more about the Cornish language I`d be glad to answer any of your questions. (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com). Yehes da dheugh lemmyn ha woja hemma ynwedh /`Eh at z daa dhIUh `lEbm at n (h)@ `udj@ hEbm@ @`we:dh/, or: /????h??z d??: ????? h `l??bm??n (h)?? ? d???? ??h??bm?? ????we:??/ "Good health to you now and afterwards, too" Dan ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.03 (10) [E] Hi Thomas, Possibly the English tongue that they heard in the Chesepeake Bay was an English dialect; Cornish was extinct already in the 19th century. Currently the language experiences an upsurge among Cornish people who have taught the language to themselves through books or courses. Cornish is too much a Celtic language to be mistaken for an English laguage. Regards, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:30:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:30:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.04 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp Subject: Counting Dear friends, When I read the following posting, I thought if I could find any similar ocuting examples in a book tilted "A TRASURY OF AMERICAN FOLKLORE" edited by B>A> Botkin Cronwn Publishers New York 12th Printing, July 1945. Quote: From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Shepherds Score The Shepherds Score counting survived into the 20th century in Northwest Georgia. A friend of mine from Whitfield County, now in his early 50's recalls his grandmother's bouncing him on her lap saying: Een, teen, tether, feather, sather, lather, have another dig, eeny dig, teeny dig, terry dig, fairy dig, bumpsit, eeny bumpsit, teeny bumpsit, terry bumpsit, fairy bumpsit, gidgit. (If my memory serves me.) A comparison with Welsh numbers will confirm it's of some sort of Brythonic origin. Unfortunately, he does not know where his grandmother learned it. Kevin McAuliff Unquote I found examples as follows: No. 1. 1. ane 6. sother 11. een dick 2. tane 7. lother 12. teen dick 3. tother 8. co. 13. tother dick 4. feather 9, deffrey 14. feather dck 5. fip 10. dick 15. bumfrey, and so on No. 2. 1. een, 6. sother 11. een dick 2. teen 7. lother 12. teen dick 3. tuther 8. porter 13. tither dick 4. futher 9. dubber 14. futher dick 5. fip 10. dick 15. bumpit, and so on...... Also one more expamle was printed together with the above. A footnote this attached: These examples of the "Anglo-Cymric score"....were obtained .... from Mrs. Ellis Allen of West Newton, now ninety years old of age, who was born at Scituate, Mass, where she learned the formula; and ... of her daughter, who learned it from as Indian woman, Mary wolsomog, of Notick. Though mother and daughter, neither had ever heard the othr's version of ther score. To illustrate the relation of this score with Welsh numerals, we add two examples from Elli's paper ("reprinted for private circulation from the Transactions of the Philological Society for 1877-8-9" pp. 316-372), selected from his fifty-three versions; the first is from England , the second from Ireland. I have not any knowledge in this field, but I felt as if I had ever read similar descriptions, having read Kevin McAuliff's posting. So, I posted this mail. I hope that I've not gone off the point. Yasuji Waki y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:32:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:32:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (04) [LS/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] R. F. Hahn schriev Unner anners als antwoord op Johan Thole (un vieleich annern ook) > > Maar helaas hebben de > > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > > het Plattd?tsch in Duitsland. > > "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden dialecten? > Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het Nedersaksisch > het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... > > Wenn Ji vun mehr "Status" un "Uutstrahlen" snackt, wat de neddersassischen > (nedderd??tschen) Dialekten in D??tschland anbelangt, denn mutt dat mit Juun > Dialekten in de Nedderlannen ja bes?nners b??s? uutsehen! > > Egaal, up wecke Sied' de Dialekten mehr Ansehn un Uutstrahlen hebbt, een > Tosamenkumst un een Tosamenwarken s?nd f?r de hele Spraak vun groot Belang, > un all de Dialekten w??rn daar vun V?rdelen trecken. Ik sehg' mehr > Wedderstand [tegenstand] in D??tschland as in de Nedderlannen, bes?nners wat > wisse Akademiers un Akademien anbelangt. Wor?m? Ik b?n mi nich seker, kann > man bloots gissen. B?rokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside > the box? Bang v?r de Noodwennigheit Orthographie-Problemen up nich-d??tsche > Wies' antopacken, wenn 'n de Spraak as internatschonaal un as egenst?nnig > (d.h. nich as nedderlandsch un nich as d??tsch) ankieken mutt? Dat glieke g??ld ook f?r dat Scots. Op in Ulster ?er ob in Schottland selvst. Een tosamenkumst k??nt alienig dat spraak goedes doen. Dat schriefwies moet dat iegenst?nige art dat sprak overbringe. Wi hebben ook l??d de jummer gloeven moeten dat mensk Scots schriefen moet as 'abwandlung' v?n dat Engels. Wat ick selbver nichs anners as 'dialekt denken' beschrieven kann. Dat hiet nich, dat dat schriefwies anners as Engels sien moet oaver et moet as selvststanniges system doar stannen k?nne. Ick witt dat Ron mit anner l??d toohoop, hier viel schrieft heft, oever een schriefweis dat dialekten overbr?ken k??nt. Dat moet all 'kliene' sprake hebben sonst hiet dat nichs anners as dialekten blieven moeten. Wi hebben ook Akademiers de jummer dat glieke vertellen. Ick gloev de l??d hebben op n school an universit?t nichs anners l?rnt hebben as onser spraaken soo too sahn. Mehr doar too, wenn mann loos latten will mit concepten wie 'language planning' de glieke l??t w??ln jummer too gloaven gefe dat de dialekten nich 'mutually comprehensible' s?nd aover l??d de dat as moeder sprak hebben, vertellen wat anners. Ik b?n ook nich sicher wat de l??t doar too bringt. F?r wat hebben de l??t angst? Wie Ron dat schrieft heft: B?rokratie? Territorialismus? Fear of thinking outside the box? Keek dat mol een bitken anners an. Stell dat soo v?r, du hefft dien gante leven lang een zoo opb??d un op een mol w?lln die apen du vertelln wo dat lang geit. Wat do opb??d hebbst wull du f?r dich selver h?llen un nich de apen overlatten. Ick gloeve dat hiet 'Social linguitics'. Wat ick studiere kann nich so clever sien wie ick selver. Toer??g inne n schublade. Dat k??mt me nich op n kopp dat too studiere wat ick selver b?n. (Na goed, we doen dat, aover we s?nd nich all welts l??d.) Andy Eagle P.S. ick heff nichs tegen wenn l??d mien bitken versoek op Nedersassisch too schrieve verbettern w?lln. Schrief op n list wat ich truch n anner kriegt heff. Its no ma mither tongue, an A can tell ye it isna a schuil bairn's denner dealin wi't. Onie wey, hae guid wind in ye sails! Or as Dr. Spok pits it: Lang mey yer lum reek! (Live long and prosper V) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:33:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:33:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.03 (03) [E] Hi! I wonder if "day and night" may refer to those odd times when the moon has not quite set - but it is visible in the early morning sky? best wishes George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 16:35:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:35:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Peter Subject: Old English Language Thanks to all those who replied so promptly to my question. It seems that what was being used was a form of Bryonic Celtic used for counting sheep and of particular interest were the tales of granny singing a rhyme containing the numbers. Thanks again Peter ---------------------------------------------------- I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan, Yinneger, Finniger. Is there anyone out there that could tell me what language this could be? Thanks in anticipation. Peter Smith E-Mail: peter.smith100 at ntlworld.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 17:04:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:04:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (11) [D/E/S] Dear Andy et al., the "Pleitegeier" refers to the German federal emblem, the eagle (as in "Andy Eagle"...), which is also found on the back of one and two Euro coins. It is also found on all kinds of official documents, including the seals which the bailiff places on items that are officially seized for not being able to pay one's bills. In this function, it is also called the "Kuckuck" (cuckoo). As for the fulfilment of ECB policies... let's change the subject, shall we? :-P Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Coinage" 2002.12.03 (01) [D] ga ik doen, kwintje Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van het kwartje de laatste niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse cultuurkring verdwijnt. Sinds Napoleon hebben we (officieel) al geen halve en kwart voeten of duimen meer. Maten die gebaseerd zijn op het menselijk lichaam en die je zonder meetgereedschap kunt gebruiken. Onze Engelse vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart tot 132ste inches. In de USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. Pieter Meester ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words My father, who spoke mostly Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and Missingsch (LS-based German), used to use a naming system for coinage that seemed to be on its way out when I was a child and seemed to have hung on in his circle of shipbuilding workers and longshoremen. The system seems to be rooted in a superceded (pre-Mark), probably non-decimal monetary system. The following is all I can remember, besides the still used _Mark_ [ma:k], _Groschen_ [['grOSn=] '10 Pfennigs', and German _Pfennig_ / LS _Penn_ [pE.n] ~ _Pennig_ ['pEnIC] ~ _Penning_ ['pEnINk] 'Pfennig': _Sechser_ ['zEks3`] ("sixer") '5 Pfennigs' (!) _Daler_ ['dQ:l3`] (German _Taler_) ("dollar") '3 Marks' _Heiermann_ ['ha.I3`ma.n] '5 Marks' _Pund_ [pU.nt] (German _Pfund_) ("pound") '20 Marks' Does anyone know more about this? Rumor has it that _Heiermann_ comes from Hamburg LS _Heuer_ ['hO.I3`], common LS _H??r_ [h?.I3`] ~ _H??r_ [hy:3`] (cognate of English 'hire'), denoting a sailor's wages. A contradictory rumor has it that it comes from old merchant jargon (Rothwelsh?) _hei_ (or _heh_) for 'five', thus Yiddish-based, referring to the Hebrew letter _hey_ "h" which also stands for "5". Neither rumor or theory explains the _...mann_ ("man") part. Thanks in anticipation. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 17:56:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 09:56:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Language attitutes" 2002.12.02 (04) [E/LS] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language attitudes > > Johan Thole (boven): > > > Maar helaas hebben de > > Saksische dialecten in Nederland niet dezelfde status en uitstraling als > > het Plattd??tsch in Duitsland. > > "Status"?! "Uitstraling"?! Ben je zeker, we praten over dezelfden > dialecten? > Mischien overschatt je het een beetje. En ik had geloofd, het > Nedersaksisch > het in Nederland een betrekkelijk zekere positie ... Ik geleuf, deur wa?k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d?r toch mear gaangs met bint. Twents kuiern w?t nog steeds veul as "boers" oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ?t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek?n. En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat plat proat?n dom steet. Ik heb?t bettien Twents da?k sprek ok op stroat lear?n m?tten. Ie hebt geliek a?j zegt dat d?r mear saam?nwerkt m?t wodd?n. Een algemene schriefwies zol al ?n good begin ween. En mear uutwisseling lek mie ok good too. Ik geleuf da?j dat van unnerop zol m?tten beginn?n, en nich m?t wacht?n tot de "offici?le instanties" de kop bie mekoar stekt. Bedankt veur oen antwoort! Johan Thole ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language attitudes Beste Johan, > Twents kuiern w?t nog steeds veul as "boers" > oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ?t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek?n. > En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat > plat proat?n dom steet. Ik heb?t bettien Twents da?k sprek ok op stroat > lear?n m?tten. Dat is in Noordd??tschland ook nich anners, bes?nners in de St?den. Ik hebb 't ook up de Staten un ?liesen? lehren m?ten. In de School harren wi man bloots 'n paar Leder un Riemels lehrt, as 'n Deel vun ?Heimatkunde? ... un denn harren se 't heel un deel an de Kant smeten, vun wegen ?ungen?gende Mittel? un ?unwichtig? un so'n T?delkraam. > Ik geleuf, deur wa?k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d?r toch > mear gaangs met bint. Dat is man bloots *nu* so. Nu de Spraak offitschell gellen dait, hett se batts wedder 'n paar "fair weather friends," L??d', de mit ehr v?rdem niks to doon hebben wullen un ehr nu up'n Maal "chic" findt -- the flavor of the day, nice and off-mainstream ... Un d?sse "Fr?nnen" findt ehr "niedlich" un "noch so sch?n derb und urig" un nehmt ehr nich f?r vull. Up d?sse Aard Fr?ndschupp hang ik mien Hood nich up; dat ka' 'k Di seggen. Andy: > P.S. ick heff nichs tegen wenn l??d mien bitken versoek op Nedersassisch too > schrieve verbettern w?lln. Schrief op n list wat ich truch n anner kriegt > heff. Dat w??rd' ik geern doon, Andy. Mien Probleem is, dat ik den "snaakschen" westerschen Dialekt vun Dien Rebeed nich kann (ofschoonst ik em verstah). > Onie wey, hae guid wind in ye sails! > Lang mey yer lum reek! Un 'n goden Wind ook in *Dien* Sails, un Dien Schosteen schall ook lang r?ken. (Ik gl??v', Dr. Spock hett maal seggt, dat is beter to w?nschen as r?kene Sails un Wind in d'n Schosteen.) Gr?tens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 22:18:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:18:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (09) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Pieter Meester schreef: > Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van het kwartje de laatste > niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse > cultuurkring verdwijnt. Er is altijd nog het zestigtallig stelsel van minuten in een uur en seconden in een minuut. > Onze Engelse > vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart tot 132ste inches. In de > USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. Dat heb ik hier nog nooit gezien. Ik heb zelfs de indruk dat de USA veel meer hecht aan het feet/pound systeem dan andere Engels- talige landen. Gustaaf ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (07) [D/E] Hoi Pieter, nee, daar kan ik je (helaas) geruststellen: in de USA gebruiken ze nog altijd van die gekke onderdeeltjes van inches, en ze vinden dat de rest van de wereld het eigenlijk ook maar zo moest doen. Daar wordt je naar van als je probeert om een amerikaanse gebruiksaanwijzing te volgen... iets uitteknippen b.v.... en je vraagt jezelf maar: waarom doen ze dat nou als het anders zo veel makkelijker is? Ron, the "Heiermann" is still in use in German slang - I hear it quite frequently in the Ruhrgebiet. It seems to have a somewhat comic connotation, though. Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 22:19:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 14:19:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.04 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (05) [E] Hi, >From wim verdoold wkv at home.nl about counting time by saying "day and night...." In Genesis one in the bible the time is counted like that. , And our for fathers counted the days in nights of sleep. In fact we still do when talking to our children...one more night till Sinterklaas!... So it's rather normal to use that line I hope this added something.. Moi! Wim. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 4 23:32:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 15:32:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: Information needed Dear all, My name is Marcel Bas and I live in the Netherlands. I read English Culture and Language at the Leiden University and my field of interest on the linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages in general, Dutch migr and the etymology of Indogermanic languages. A few years ago I was also subscribed to the Lowlands-L, for several years and I spent some time, during my subscription, in South Africa. Currently, although the exams for this semester are 'nigh', I am conducting research for a webpage which I intend to create for the Afrikaans-Dutch web site 'De Roepstem', which I manage and build continuously (http://roepstem.tripod.com). I want to collect information ob the few Dutch Creole languages that are known and compare them to Afrikaans. Dutch creoles have most rarely been considered a serious subject, but the last decade has shown three scholars who take interest in this. Negerhollands, Berbice Dutch Creole and Skepi Dutch are my main points of interest; Cefas van Rossem's book 'Die Creol Taal' I already have in my possession, and I have borrowed Silvia Kouwenberg's Berbice Dutch Creole (1991) from the university library. A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch. Noteworthy is that both Skepi Dutch (Guyana) and Negerhollands (US Virgin Islands) were recently extinct (sadly!) and Berbice Dutch (deriving from the Zeelandic dialect Zeeuws) still survives with a few speakers in Guyana. Could anybody please give me suggestions for further reading, or could somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages? Little is yet known, literature is scarce so most chunks of information on this subject will be new to me. This is truly an interesting subject! Bij voorbaat mijn dank, Marcel Bas, Voorschoten. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:38:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:38:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.04 (09) [D/E] Gustaaf, Jij hebt gelijk. Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en lengte betreft) te doen hebben. Mijn zusje heeft zelf meerdere keer gezegt "Oh, I just cannot understand that Metric System." Not understand, zeg ik? Kun je tot tien tellen? Moeten jullie echter niet geloven dat Amerikanen dat foot-inch-ounce-pound stelsel beter begrijpen!!! I think it has something to do with our resistance to a system of "proportional representation" in elections! :) Stan > Pieter Meester schreef: > > > Wat ik me realiseer is dat met het verdwijnen van > het kwartje de laatste > > niet-metrieke, niet-decimale maat- en > getalsbenaming uit de Nederlandse > > cultuurkring verdwijnt. > > Er is altijd nog het zestigtallig stelsel van > minuten in een uur > en seconden in een minuut. > > > Onze Engelse > > vrienden zijn de laatsten, denk ik, met hun kwart > tot 132ste inches. In de > > USA hebben ze de inch/duim al decimaal verdeeld. > > Dat heb ik hier nog nooit gezien. Ik heb zelfs de > indruk dat de > USA veel meer hecht aan het feet/pound systeem dan > andere Engels- > talige landen. > > Gustaaf ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure Hello, Gabriele wrote: nee, daar kan ik je (helaas) geruststellen: in de USA gebruiken ze nog altijd van die gekke onderdeeltjes van inches, en ze vinden dat de rest van de wereld het eigenlijk ook maar zo moest doen. Daar wordt je naar van als je probeert om een amerikaanse gebruiksaanwijzing te volgen... iets uitteknippen b.v.... en je vraagt jezelf maar: waarom doen ze dat nou als het anders zo veel makkelijker is? Nee, Gabriele, dat denk ik niet. Ik vind niet dat de rest van de wereld moet doen zoals wij het doen. Ik vind de inches, enz. ook heel gek, maar de meeste mensen luisteren niet naar mij terwijl ik altijd zeg, dat wij vreemde talen moeten leren. Mijn stem is heel klein, precis als mijn invloed, maar ik doe wat ik kan. Langzam maar zeker, h?? There are a lot of things I would change here. (But man, it sure is nice living in the U.S., because I'm so close to the center of the universe. I don't have to revolve too much) (That's a joke, just in case you were wondering.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:41:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:41:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (02) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Marcel: I have been engaged in private correspondence with Marco Evenhuis, giving him names and addresses of people I have known who grew up speaking Dutch in the Catskills in New York and individuals of the Jackson White community in New Jersey/New York. The latter apparently spoke a sort of creole Dutch and he is going to see if he can dig up a few surviving speakers. I just got an e-mail from him today, explaining that he has not caught up with his work but that he will continue his pursuit when he can. I am sure that he will report his findings in this site when he is ready. Tom Byro -----Original Message----- From: Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG]On Behalf Of Lowlands-L Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 6:33 PM To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] From: Marcel Bas Subject: Information needed Dear all, My name is Marcel Bas and I live in the Netherlands. I read English Culture and Language at the Leiden University and my field of interest on the linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages in general, Dutch migr and the etymology of Indogermanic languages. A few years ago I was also subscribed to the Lowlands-L, for several years and I spent some time, during my subscription, in South Africa. Currently, although the exams for this semester are 'nigh', I am conducting research for a webpage which I intend to create for the Afrikaans-Dutch web site 'De Roepstem', which I manage and build continuously (http://roepstem.tripod.com). I want to collect information ob the few Dutch Creole languages that are known and compare them to Afrikaans. Dutch creoles have most rarely been considered a serious subject, but the last decade has shown three scholars who take interest in this. Negerhollands, Berbice Dutch Creole and Skepi Dutch are my main points of interest; Cefas van Rossem's book 'Die Creol Taal' I already have in my possession, and I have borrowed Silvia Kouwenberg's Berbice Dutch Creole (1991) from the university library. A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch. Noteworthy is that both Skepi Dutch (Guyana) and Negerhollands (US Virgin Islands) were recently extinct (sadly!) and Berbice Dutch (deriving from the Zeelandic dialect Zeeuws) still survives with a few speakers in Guyana. Could anybody please give me suggestions for further reading, or could somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages? Little is yet known, literature is scarce so most chunks of information on this subject will be new to me. This is truly an interesting subject! Bij voorbaat mijn dank, Marcel Bas, Voorschoten. ---------- From: ezinsser at worldonline.co.za ezinsser at worldonline.co.za Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.04 (11) [E] Haai almal Marcel, jy skryf: ""A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack labialisation in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often assimilated in the surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and there are other similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch."" Sal jy dit 'n bietjie nader kan toelig, miskien met voorbeelde? Groete, Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 15:47:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 07:47:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.05 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) andy at scots-online.org Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.03 (09) [S] Ron Hahn spiert: > Subject: Orthography > > Folk, > > A maun say A div lik the spellin "eu" insteid o "ui" (e.g., in "beuk" versus > "buik") fine. Gin A mynd richt, the conservative pronunciaition is [?] (as > in French _peu_, German _sch?n_ an Norwegian _k?_). "Eu" is eesed (yeused? > yeesed?) for [?] in French, the langages o the Netherlands an in Afrikaans > an aw. The follaein's taen staucht fae: http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/spellguide.htm an is hou A deal wi thae maiters. The spelling represents the internal diphthong in words like beuk, eneuch, teuch, neuk and heuch etc. This is pronounced either /ju/, /jV/ or /V/ depending on dialect. (See also below.) The spelling for the vowel sound in words like guid, ruif, tuim, spuin, puir, juist and truith etc. This is pronounced /y(:)/ or /?(:)/in conservative dialects. In Northern dialects this is usually pronounced /i(:)/ and /wi/ after /g/ and /k/. In Central dialects this is pronounced /I/ when short and /e:/ when long. (See the Scots Vowel-Length Rule in Phonetic Symbols). Note uise and uiss are [je:z] and [jIs] in central dialects. Many of these words have English cognates which are spelled as a result some writers mistakenly spell some words with where, in fact, they should be spelled . Before /k/ and /x/ the original vowel sound became /ju/, /jV/ or /V/ depending on dialect. (See above.) Note fit (foot), room, wid (wood) and oo (wool). > What aboot/about "oo" or "ou"? Is it aye "ou" noo/nou, Andy an Sandy? The spelling is used for the vowel sound /u(:)/ in words like hoose, aboot and soond in order to avoid confusing with the English pronunciation. The traditional Scots spelling for /u(:)/ is used in all other words where confusion with the English pronunciation is unlikely. Many writers use either or for this /u(:)/ sound in all words. The digraph is always pronounced /u(:)/in Scots, except in Southern Scots, when final, it is pronounced /Vu/. The spelling for the vowel sound /u(:)/ in words where the spelling is established e.g. dule, bure, hure and wure etc. > Will ye writ "eu" in aw cases, in "geud" an "ceud" an aw, where "guid" an > "cuid"'s mair sitable for the byleids o the north ([gwid], [kwid])? A see > "guid" abeun in Andy's postin. "eu" wadna be uised in 'guid' (good) at aw. Some fowk writes the Scots cognates o 'could' an 'should' wi "ui". A dinna gree wi thon acause the unnerlyin phonemes disna follae the paitrens for ordinar associate wi "ui" as abuin. A juist uise the spellins 'coud' an 'shoud' the emphatic maik. Thare is o coorse the maik /kwId/ in the North-East an the unemphatic /kId, kVd, SId, SVd/ no tae mention the aulder sud/soud (should). "eu" wadna be onie better a spellin here aither acause o the selsame unnerlyin phonemic paitrens. Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 16:39:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 08:39:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Stan Levinson schrijft: > Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets > bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste > mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en > lengte betreft) te doen hebben. In het verleden zijn er wel halfslachtige pogingen geweest op het metrieke stelsel over te gaan maar dit is nooit echt aangeslagen. Heel af en toe zie je afstandborden in mijlen *en* kilometers. Ik weet van een net ten zuiden van Santa Fe op de I25 die de afstand naar Albuquerque in beide eenheden aangeeft, maar dat is dan ook het enige voor- beeld in New Mexico. Elders heb ik dit alleen sporadisch in Californie gezien. De enige metrieke voorbeelden in het dagelijkse leven waar ik op kan komen zijn: plastic Cola flessen in twee en drie liter uitvoeringen, wijn in 750ml flessen, en medicijnen in gram en mg. Het wordt voor ons metriekelingen helemaal ingewikkeld met combinaties van eenheden. Miles/gallon is normaal voor benzineverbruik, and acre-foot voor irrigatie (populair hier in de woestijn). Maar ik houd nu op voor Ron me op de vingers tikt dat ik wel erg ver ben afgedreven van een Lowlands onderwerp! Groeten, Gustaaf ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] Dear Stan and Kevin, well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to insult any Americans, but you caught me anyway. :-) Of course I didn't mean to offend; consider it a heartfelt sigh from someone who lived in the States for eight years and, having three children in school, had to deal with those obscure measurements on a daily basis. You've already mentioned feet, inches, ounces and pounds. But there's also degrees Fahrenheit, fluid versus solid ounces, stones, yards, acres, square feet, the whole cup/tablespoon/teaspoon thing, bushels, gallons, quarts, several different kinds of miles... and don't even get me started about that "gaggle of geese" and "bevy of beauties" thing. I used to say that the thing that REALLY amazed me ist that Americans actually measure time in hours, minutes and seconds... it seems to be the ONLY measurement they have in common with the rest of the world. You're right, even the voting system seems to fit this pattern! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Gabriele: > well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to insult any Americans, > but you caught me anyway. :-) We caught you preaching to the choir. It is telling to observe that Americans who live(d) abroad (like Stan), are widely traveled and/or are interested in the world outside their own (like Kevin) tend to have no problem -- philosophical or educational -- with the "metric" system all countries but theirs now use -- yes, even the "mother country" Britain and her British Commonwealth offspring. It needs to be remembered that most countries at one time or other switched from their own "weird" little measuring systems (and there used to be many) to the universal one, that all of them survived it, some with less whining, moaning, temper tantrums, irate letters to editors and psychological trauma than others. I happened to move to Australia when that country "became metric." What bitching and moaning! You have no idea! People complained and complained. "How big is a meter?" they'd ask me expecting an equivalent in feet and inches. Instead, I'd hold up my hands in about a meter's distance from each other, or hold up a metric ruler and show them, "This big." That's all they really needed to know. Sure, it was hard to convert, for instance in the building trade where all sizes had been inch-based. But, guess, what: people got over it, joined the world and aren't the worse for wear. They knew they *had* to, because Australians have never had any delusions of grandeur. Britain and the British Commonwealth were the last countries to convert, and now the US is the odd one out, but few people here seem to care. And why should they? Foreign countries and companies cater to their wishes by communicating with Americans using the old system, and they supply goods by this system to suit the (large) American market. American conversion to the universal system would happen sooner if the rest of the world refused to continue doing so ("Sorry, we don't do inches.") It is also interesting to note that American scientists, including everyone working in any medical field, use the universal "metric" system internally (and almost secretly) and translate information to the old system only for the general public. Did this happen voluntarily, or was it because their collaborating colleagues elsewhere refused to play the "Imperial measures" game to cater to their wishes? Armed with this knowledge, and being bothered by the rapid erosion of respect for patients' privacy in the American health care system, I always provide the metric versions of my height and weight in doctors' offices and hospitals, and I refuse to give the "American" equivalents. At least this way I avoid giving out *some* personal information to most patients that inevitably are within earshot. See if I care! > I used to say that the thing that REALLY amazed me ist that Americans > actually measure time in hours, minutes and seconds... it seems to be the > ONLY measurement they have in common with the rest of the world. Ah, yes! But why? Think about it! It don't need no countin' to *ten*, babe! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 18:04:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 10:04:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (01) [D/E] At 07:38 AM 12/05/02 -0800, Stan Levinson wrote: >Jij hebt gelijk. Hier is het "metric stelsel" iets >bijna zo "gevaarlijk" als communismus! De meeste >mensen willen niets met Metric (vooral wat gewicht en >lengte betreft) te doen hebben. Mijn zusje heeft zelf >meerdere keer gezegt "Oh, I just cannot understand >that Metric System." Not understand, zeg ik? Kun je >tot tien tellen? >Moeten jullie echter niet geloven dat Amerikanen dat >foot-inch-ounce-pound stelsel beter begrijpen!!! >I think it has something to do with our resistance to >a system of "proportional representation" in >elections! :) I heard an American comic one say, "If God wanted us to use the metric system, he would have given us ten apostles instead of twelve." Here's a comeback for Americans who say that the metric system is more confusing than their own: How many yards in a mile? Or how about this: Which is heavier an once of feathers or an once of gold? (gold is measured in apothecary onces, which are heavier). But which is heavier, a pound of feathers or a pound of gold? Wrong. (there are only twelve onces in an apothecary pound as opposed to the standard sixteen). Imagine: before Canada went metric, things were even screwier, since we used the Imperial Standard, which has different sized onces, gallons, measuring spoons, and more! Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: "Ian James Parsley" Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Ron and Gabriele, I think it is interesting, though, to follow what is 'left over' from such a change. Without wishing to make any form of political point, it frustrates me immensely that we in the UK decided to change in 1965, and never completed the job, while our 'daughter countries' went ahead and got on with it! Still we have miles and yards (even though the people constructing the roads use metric), and talk feet/inches and stone/pounds. (For those who have never visited, yards are even used on roadsigns where feet would be in the US.) Although it could be worse - the Irish Republic uses metric for distances ('?th Cliath/DUBLIN 75km') but miles an hour for speed limits ('30 mph')! Confusing! They hadn't considered that all cars to the UK/Ireland (left-hand drive) market give prominence to miles; and they also replaced distance signs *gradually* (older signs are still in miles, you have to seek out the 'km'), which obviously they couldn't do with speed limit signs. But I wonder off-topic a little. Firstly, in the English-speaking world the conversion has not been completed. Australia uses kilos, but still feet/inches for height. The UK and Ireland are very mixed - I much prefer km but would struggle to give either weight or height in metric (even though I favour complete conversion NOW!) Canada of course went metric and there are big warning signs indicated as much at the US border, but nonetheless I've heard Canadians using the 'old' measures. Then there's the issue of what happens elsewhere. Germans still refer metaphorically to a 'Meilenstein'. Did I mishear a soccer commentator say, after a shot that glazed the bar, 'Zentner!' (where an English-speaker would say 'inches!')? Could 'Zentimeter!' as an exclamation be used as an equivalent? And of course the old idea that metric measures would mean the end of the 'traditional British pint' are as untrue as the idea that metric measures are a 'European directive' (like I say, the decision was taken 8 years before entry to the EEC!) - Germans do, after all, still have their 'Pfund' in colloquial parlance. Yes, the metric system is definitely miles better! ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Dear Ron, your reply really had me in stitches - especially the last bit. But I've seen the same - everybody is actually complaining about how HARD the metric system is. Come again?! One litre equals the volume contained in ten by ten by centimeters, or one kilogram of water. And don't tell me it's so hard to remember that water freezes at zero degrees, and boils at a hundred. A chimp can remember that. Maybe that's the problem - all these complicated measurements give people a sense of achievement once they have figured them out? After all, I was very proud of myself when I had learned the mysteries of DOS, and felt downright offended when Windows came along and suddenly EVERYBODY could use a computer without making the same effort that I had made. ;-) On the other hand, neither my husband nor my ex-husband, both American and college graduates with a science degree, could ever explian to me the difference between a fjuid and a solid ounce, and which one would apply to measure applesauce, for example. Another theory is that, since the USA are a young country without a long history, they like to stick to whatever they feel they have in the way of tradition. That would also explain why all their paper money is still green and you can never tell at one glimpse how much you actually have in your wallet, while most other countries are using colour-coded bills, often with additional information in Braille. Of course, it's not like we Europeans are all that innocent in that respect. Remember how, decades ago by now, the "calory" unit was officially replaced by "Joule"? It's not like anyone has ever adapted to that (although I guess they would have easily if the calory information were simply no longer provided). Also, Germans are never really sure how to pronounce "Joule". Een prettige Sinterklaasavond toegewenst! Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Ian: > Then there's the issue of what happens elsewhere. > Germans still refer metaphorically to a 'Meilenstein'. There are still such linguistic fossils in German and in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) -- e.g. also G. _meilenlang_ and LS _mielenlang_ ("miles long") 'very long/far'. But they do not denote actual measures anymore. You can also talk about G. _Daumenbreite_ ("thumb's width"), and you have the good old _Zollstock_ (LS _Tollstock_) ("inch stick") 'folding rule' (which nowadays shows metrics). > Did I mishear a soccer commentator say, after a shot > that glazed the bar, 'Zentner!' (where an > English-speaker would say 'inches!')? A _Zentner_ is the old German equivalent of a hundredweight. It is the equivalent of 1000 _Pfund_ (pounds), and a _Pfund_ (LS _Pund_) is 0.5 kilograms. A _Zentner_ is thus 500 kg. It's just a remnant of the old system, as is the _Pfund_, but they have been adapted to the international system from one in which their values were somewhat different. > Could > 'Zentimeter!' as an exclamation be used as an > equivalent? I have a feeling the commentator was referring to the force of the kick, a "bomb", a "whammy," rather than to the closeness to the bar. (See about _Zentner_ above.) Gabriele: > After all, I was very proud of myself when I had learned the mysteries of > DOS, and felt downright offended when Windows came along and suddenly > EVERYBODY could use a computer without making the same effort that I had > made. ;-) Darn, huh? I went through the same experience, and then again when I had "mastered" HTML script and HTML editing programs came out. Join the club! There are many of us. This is what happens if you have to be at the forefront of stuff and can't wait for the bandwagon to come along. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:35:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:35:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.05 (06) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Dear all, Whit like are ye? Sut ydych chwi? I'm currently doing my duty and working my way through Colin's Scots language learner, and at the same time teaching myself Welsh - mainly cos I don't want to be an ignorant Brit that doesn't know any of the other languages from his country of origin. One thing that I've noticed through learning them side-by-side is the use of the 3rd person singular with plurals when the plurals aren't a pronoun. Eg. Scots : he is, they are, but the bairns is Welsh : y mae ef, y maent hwy, but y mae'r bechgyn (the boys 'is') I'm presuming that this is similar in Scots Gaelic - also being Celtic. My question is, is this an influence of Gaelic on Scots, or is this feature an inheritance from the Old Northumbrian dialect from which it descended? Also, are there other such grammatical influences from Celtic in Scots? I would have tried to write it in Scots, but I didn't want to embarrass myself, and mangle your language in the process! Gary ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Gary: > I would have tried to write it in Scots, but I didn't > want to embarrass myself, and mangle your language in > the process! Sae ye lat me be gawkin an guffin an playin the blunnerin Scots-learnin bummle lee lane? Noo, that's conseederin! Dinna be feart noo! Nummers coont, ye ken. Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:42:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:42:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (05) [D/E] Ed, I couldn't wait to try that one on my American husband. He got the weights wrong (hee hee), but he knew without even thinking how many yards are in a mile: 1770 - or so he says (but then, he has a great head for trivia). Ron: I'm afraid you've been out of the country for too long. A "Zentner" comes to 100 German pounds (500g each), and thus to 50 kg, not 500 kg. Remember that especially heavy people are often referred to as "Zwei-Zentner-Frau" or "Drei-Zentner-Mann". According to your reckoning, they'd have to weigh a ton or more! I know your opinions always carry a lot of weight, but this time you rather overdid it! :-D Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: corber Subject: metric In Canada we started metric many years ago,but then we elected a Conservative government who stopped it.So now we have it 50/50. Produce and meat is priced at both metric and Imperial.. Building supplies are mainly in Imperial. Distance and,fluids are metric.Land was surveyed in miles and feet. Automobiles are metric exept the wheels are in inches as they are in the rest of the world I believe.. I have never been able to figure how the US started Brititish ,then changed their gallons to a smaller gallon and developed machine threads to a system they call SAE. The British untill metrification used more than one machine thread system. Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: measure words Gabrielle, I was not offended. I've lived here in the States all my life and it's still amazing to me how many people in this country walk around as though no other country or language exists. This year, as in many years past, I had a student say: ,,why can't they just speak English like we do?" I replied: Yeah, after all Adam and Eve spoke English and anyone speaking one of those other languages is going to hell." They didn't know I was joking, but I think I got their attention. By the way, I have a thermometer outside my front door that was a gift and it only has celsius. I use it all the time. (Zal ik een jasje dragen of niet?) Ik wens dat we allemaal Nederlands kon spreken...de mooiste en vriendelijkste taal ter wereld. Maar dat is alleen mijn opinie. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:44:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:44:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.05 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Could you tell me something about Dutch 'pink'? There has been some interesting talking now about 'celtic' counting in english dialects. This brings me to Dutch 'pink'; one of my old favourites. Here we go: Dutch 'pink' means 'little finger'. Origin of this word is not known [to me, that is]. But always I liked to understand this word 'pink' as the 'fifth finger'. [Here you have it connected with the counting-talks.] But: understanding 'pink' als '5th finger', means that I like to see it as an Indo-European word, meaning 'the fifth'. The final '-ink' may be linked to Indo-European. The initial 'p-' may be be linked to Indo-European. But combining P with INK [as a Germanic construction] is a trick I am not able to do. Is 'pink' an I-E fossile? Or is 'pink' a fossile of a language very much in the neighbourhood of Old-Germanic, eg. of the language of the Kaninefates / Canninefates [Kennemers]? And this is just saying that the language of these Canninefates was not real Germanic, shame on me! OK, let us deal with substrates: I like making theories about substrates, but working with substrates in practise always turns out to be a mess. Who helps me out? And: what is the first evidence of 'pink' in Dutch or Franconian? All questions, but no answers, unless you ... vr.gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 19:47:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 11:47:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (09) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.05 (02) [A/E] Thomas: Thank you very much for the information. I must say that was fully unaware of people speaking creole Dutch in the United States. Is this a remnant of the early Dutch settlements in New York in the 17th century? Marco Evenhuis I know from his fascinating contribution to the Zeelandic site "Bel-bel's Belangriekste Afleveringen", where he writes about Berbice Dutch after an interview that he had with Berbice researcher Silvia Kouwenberg. I'd appreciate it very much if you will keep me informed on Evenhuis's progress! Elsie, nou sal ek gou-gou oorskakel op hierdie pragtige Afrikaanse taal waarin jy skryf: >"A few things have struck my interest; both afrikaans and the creoles lack >labialisation >in D /y/, which is produced as [i]; the medial /g/ and /x/ are often >assimilated in the >surrounding vowels, the verbal clinations are simplified to the stem and >there are other >similarities between Afrikaans and Creole Dutch."" > >Sal jy dit 'n bietjie nader kan toelig, miskien met voorbeelde? Ja, ek sal. Daardie afwesigheid van labialisering, of ronding, maak dat 'n /y/, soos in _duur_ nie met albei lippe toegerond geproduseer word nie, maar met die lippe effens meer ontspanne. In Nederlands, nes in Duits bij woorde met __, rond ons die lippe wanneer ons _huur_, _U_, __buren_, _ berhaupt_ s. In Afrikaans rond die sprekers die _uu_ nie, waardeur dit amper klink soos 'n _ie_ (die tong se stand is dalk anders as wanneer jy 'n egte _ie_ produseer, maar in die foneemapparaat van 'n Nederlander klink dit maar die einste). So is die werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: /styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ Nou sien jy ook wat bedoel ek met die verval van werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' werkwoord, soos in Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. En die middelste /g/ en /x/ kry 'n apokopee (is 'apokopee' regte Afrikaans?): in Ned. 'tegen' is die middelste /x/ nog teenwoordig, terwyl hy in Afrikaans verdwyn het. Soms spreek mense in Afrikaans die telwoord _nege_ uit as /ni at g@/, pleks van /ni at x@/. Hier lyk dit vir my dat die /g/ sal verdwyn in Afrikaans, indien dit nog nie so ver is by party sprekers nie. Dalk is die /g/ 'n oorgangsvorm van /x/ na volledige verdwyning. So het ons in Afrikaans berg (mountain) - berge (mountains) - bre (to store), wat almal van die Ned. stam _berg-_ af kom, maar uiteindelik alle drie verskillende realiserings van die /x/ het: /bErx/ - /bErg@/ - /bEr@/. Morgen - m re is vergelykbaar; /g/ raak in die /r/ geassimileer. Groetnis, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:04:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:04:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Dear Lowlanders, While our Jewish subscribers are in the middle of their Hanukkah season (November 30 - December 7 this year), our Islamic subscribers today approach the end of their fasting month Ramadh?n (November 6 - December 5 this year) and are looking forward to tomorrow's `Id al-Fitr, a day of feasting with family and friends. To all of them friendly and warm holiday wishes: ????? ??? `Id Mub?rak! (Sorry. This was just too tempting an opportunity to test if graphics and Arabic script can be processed.) Meanwhile, in Christian-rooted homes all over the Continental Lowlands, children young and old are eagerly awaiting tonight's or tomorrow's arrival of St. Nicolas (Santa Claus, Sinterklaas). I hope that all of our subscribers in the Dutch-, Flemish-, Zeelandic-, Limburgish- and Low-Saxon-speaking areas have been more nice than naughty all year and will get at least a little something from Old Nick. We North Germans have the best of both worlds: S?nnerklaas on December 6 (with small gifts in shoes left on a window sill), and then, from the German tradition, the Wiehnachtsmann (German Weihnachtsmann, Father Christmas) on Christmas Eve (December 24). That means prezzies twice! Happy holidays to all of you on behalf of Lowlands-L! Regards, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net P.S.: A little Lowlands Saxon (Low German) selection from years gone by: [Translations below] 1) S?nner Klaas, du gode Bloot, geev mi 'n St?ckje Sukkergoot, nich to v??l un nich to minn, smiet mi't man to de Sch?steen rin! 2) Slaap, Kindken, slaap! Bold ritt de S?nder Klaas, un sl?ppst du denn, denn k?mmt he ran, vun Gold so blank, de hillige Mann. 3) Sunner Klaas, de grote Mann, kloppt an alle D?ren an. L?tte Kinner bringt he wat, Grote stickt he in 'en Sack. 4) S?nder Klaas dat is 'n Eddelmann, 'n Eddelmann is he, he hett 'n B?x van Krinten an, 'n Rock van Risebree. Sien Oogskes s?nd Rosientjes, sien Hoor dat is S??tholt. Sien Lippen s?nd van Sukkergood, sien Wangen s?nd van Gold. 5) Lebe gode S?nner Klaas, b?st ?ber alle Kinner Baas, ried op dienen Schimmel vun den hogen Himmel. Unsen Pollo bindt wi an, dat he di nich bieten kann. Hillige Mann, gah nich v?rbi, S?nner Klaas, wi bidden di! == (Draft translations) 1) Sinterklaas, you dearest blood, Give me a piece of sugar bread, Not too much and not too little! Throw it down the chimney to me! 2) Sleep, my child, sleep! Soon Sinterklaas will ride, And if you'll sleep then He'll approach Aglow with gold, The holy man. 3) Sinterklaas, the great man, Knocks on all the doors. He'll bring gifts to little ones. He'll stick big ones in the sack. 4) Sinterklaas, he's a nobleman, A nobleman is he. Wears breeches made of gingerbread A coat of rice pudding. His little eyes are raisins. His hair, it's licorice. His lips are made of candy. His cheeks are made of gold. 5) Dearest, kindest Sinterklaas, You are all the children's boss. Come riding on your white horse Down from heaven high! We'll tether our Pollo So he won't go and bite. Holy Man, don't pass us by! Sinterklaas, we beg of you. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: `Id-Mubarak.gif Type: image/gif Size: 17679 bytes Desc: not available URL: From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:20:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:20:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 21:36:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:36:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E/LS/S/Russian] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Gabriele's digressions and transgressions Gabriele: > Personally, I have this thing for > Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved > Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. > > But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron > forgive me this once. Na, ye hiv been ower coorse an will find nocht bit a kneevle o coal in yer shae the morn! ???, ?? ???? ??????? ?????????? ? ??????? ?????? ????? ???? ? ????? ????? ?????? ?????! Nee, nee! Du b?st veel to unaardig west un schast morgen fr?h man bloots in St?ck Kohl in dien Schoh finnen! Old Nick (a.k.a. The Ron) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:18:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:18:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.05 (11) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Lowlands-L wrote: > From: j_thole at ftml.net > > Ik geleuf, deur wa?k heurd en leesn heb, dat de leu in Duutsland d?r toch > mear gaangs met bint. Twents kuiern w?t nog steeds veul as "boers" > oetlegt. Kinder kriegt in ?t unnerwies ok gin kans um Twents te sprek?n. > En de ouders leert de kinders ok allenig Nederlands, umdat ze geleuft dat > plat proat?n dom steet. Ik heb?t bettien Twents da?k sprek ok op stroat > lear?n m?tten. Ik ben bang dat ik je teleur moet stellen. De attitude mag dan in duitsland en nederland hetzelfde zijn: plat is boers en ouderwets, maar ik was als Emslander in Groningen wel verbaast dat er nog jonge mensen waren die plat (of fries) met elkaar praten. Dat zou je in Muenster of Osnabrueck niet zo gauw overkomen. Dat streektalen nog alive and kicking zijn (gemeten aan de situatie in duitsland) kun je ook er aan zien dat streektalen nog gebruikt worden om cultuur te beoefenen. Te denken valt aan Skik en Ede Staal, of aan Herman Finkers (die helaas gestopt is) en Normaal. Of aan, ook al is het niet nedersaksisch maar wel laaglands, Rowwen Heze, Flip Kowlier, en niet te vergeten de film Nynke. Mijn indruk is dat in duitsland het plat een onderdeel van de Folklore is, en je wellicht een Shantychor vind, of een amateurtheatertje die een platduits blijspel opvoerd, maar dan heb je het wel een beetje. Als iemand mij van het tegendeel wil overtuigen, graag. De groeten Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:23:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:23:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] At 11:42 AM 12/05/02 -0800, Gabriele Kahn wrote: >I couldn't wait to try that one on my American husband. He got the weights >wrong (hee hee), but he knew without even thinking how many yards are in a >mile: 1770 - or so he says (but then, he has a great head for trivia). I rest my case: it's 1760. I guess we'd better not ask him how many chains, rods, furlongs........ Ed ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Gustaaf, Ron, et al. Gee, this is really getting amusing. Gustaaf, i think you can see nobody took any offense. What's even funnier than our system, is that I seriously doubt there is anyone who actually masters our system. Most people get feet/inches, ounces/pounds, but even when it comes to liquid measures, only kitchen wizards are able to interpret teaspoons-tablespoons-cups-pints etc. You can see why it's so hard to change: it's not that people like the system (they don't know it!, it's "just because", which is the hardest thing to change! Also, re Australia, two things: When Australia first went metric in money, I remember reading an anecdote of a woman who went to the butcher, was told her purchase came to (say) $3.85, and she asked "How much is that is REAL money?" Actually, that may or may not be apocryphal, but I am fanatic about Australian Rugby League and watch the games on the Internet, and more than once I've heard an announcer say (for example), "he's 172cm, about 5'8" in the old language." The OLD LANGUAGE!!! That is rich! So to those announcers, there's no consciousness of a system changing, it's more like a "new language"!!! Lest there be any confusion, by the way, I absolutely LOVE almost anything Aussie, and in fact those Aussie rugby announcers, especially Ray Warren, are great. Stan Gustaaf wrote: > well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to > insult any Americans, > but you caught me anyway. :-) Ron wrote: I happened to > move to Australia when that country "became metric." > What bitching and > moaning! You have no idea! People complained and > complained. "How big is > a meter?" they'd ask me expecting an equivalent in > feet and inches. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 5 22:32:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:32:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E/LS/S/Russian] Ron schreef: >I hope that all of our subscribers in the Dutch-, Flemish-, Zeelandic-, >Limburgish- and Low-Saxon-speaking areas have been more nice >than naughty all year and will get at least a little something from Old Nick. and further: > Nee, nee! Du b?st veel to unaardig west un schast morgen fr?h man bloots in > St?ck Kohl in dien Schoh finnen! > > Old Nick > (a.k.a. The Ron) Uhmmm... Ron... I hate to point this out to you, since you left me all those good wishes for tomorrow (you see, I'm diabetic and sweets would actually be bad for me)... but... you ARE aware that "Old Nick" is not the same as ""Old St. Nick", but is, in fact, a name for the muckle de'il - de D?wel - the devil himself, right?! Remember the song "Ghost riders in the sky" where "they say Old Nick himself was seen along the trail"? Thus I'm not so terribly sure what to make of your heartfelt message for all Lowlanders... ;-) Somewhat apprehensively, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Gabriele: > Uhmmm... Ron... I hate to point this out to you, since you left me all those > good wishes for tomorrow (you see, I'm diabetic and sweets would actually be > bad for me)... but... you ARE aware that "Old Nick" is not the same as ""Old > St. Nick", but is, in fact, a name for the muckle de'il - de D?wel - the > devil himself, right?! Sure. So you *were* paying attention! I was just checking. ;) Isn't Old Nick the one who supplies the lumps of coal for the naughty ones? Cheers, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: And, for your information, American banknotes are now about to go multicolored! So there! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 00:17:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 16:17:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (14) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] While I can appreciate the attempt at inclusiveness by mentioning Jewish and Islamic holidays, why is it that no attempts are made to include other world religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, Native American traditions, Wicca, Asatru, Druidism? Or am I the only non-Christian, non-Jew, non-Muslim on the list? Candon McLean ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Candon, You have a point. However, I do occasionally refer to and wish people well on holidays of other religions, such as Chinese New Year (since I know we have a fair number of Chinese subscribers) and Wicca Yule and Samhain (although I did not know if anyone on the List follows it). I do so if I am aware of such holidays and I am sure that there are at least several subscribers who follow a given tradition. Christianity, Judaism and Islam happen to be the three predominant religions of Europe (including Lowlands Europe), the Americas, Australia and New Zealand, and most of our subscribers live in those parts. What provoked me to send out greetings during this particular period is my awareness that currently holidays are coinciding in these three traditions. As far as I know, Yule will be on December 21, as will be Celtic Alban Arthuan and Alban Heruin, and Kwaanza will be on December 26. Holiday wishes ought not be considered my exclusive domain and responsibility. Anyone on this List should feel free to send them. By all means! Since we talk about diversity in this regard, my greetings go to Buddhists on the List (if any) on Bodhi Day (Japanese Rohatsu) on December 8! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 01:15:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 17:15:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (15) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.DEC.2002 (15) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Stan wrote: > Gee, this is really getting amusing. Gustaaf, i think > you can see nobody took any offense. > Gustaaf wrote: > >>well, I wrote that in Dutch on purpose so as not to >>insult any Americans, >>but you caught me anyway. :-) Ik dacht dat Gabriele dat schreef; ik was het in ieder geval niet. Ik heb allang geleerd me aan de niet metrische maten aan te passen. En terug in Europa betrap ik me erop dat ik de afstanden in km in mijlen omreken al is het alleen maar om het met bekende afstanden in de USA te vergelijken. Zoals gezegd, er blijven problemen voor mij als er twee maten wor- den gecombineerd (pound-foot for torque) of als er meer dan normale precisie nodig is (bij 38.1 graden C kan ik me de koorts precies voorstellen, maar bij 100.8F kan ik dat nog steeds niet.) Groeten uit Socorro (49F) Gustaaf (5'11", 208lb) ---------- From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (12) [E] Ed writes (about yards/mile): > I rest my case: it's 1760. This is not difficult to remember if you know that athletic tracks in the US tend to be 440 yards in length. There is even a world record for this distance, which by the way is very close to 400m. Well, these tracks are also a quarter mile in length, so yards per mile is 4 x 440 = 1760. An area in which yards and feet are the official norm all over the world is soccer. Many in the Netherlands know that at free kicks the wall needs to be at a 9m 15cm dist- ance from the ball, and in Germany they use "Elfmeter", where few will know that the official distances are 10 and 12 yards, respectively. The size of the goal is 8 yards wide and 8 feet high all over the world. Gustaaf (USSF Referee) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:29:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:29:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (14) [E] Ron, thanks for the other world religion's holiday wishes! > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > Holiday wishes ought not be considered my exclusive domain and > responsibility. Anyone on this List should feel free to send them. > By all > means! OK, when the time comes I'll wish every one a Good Yule and 'ware the wild hunt! ;-) Candon McLean ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Digression" 2002.12.05 (10) [E] To Gabrielle Kahn: My children regard themselves more as New Yorkers than as Americans. My daughter (born in Manhattan) thought that she would never leave the city but is happily settled in Basel now.It is not Westphalia but it is much more like home than Pennsylvania. I brought her up bi-lingual Hochdeutsch and English. And yes, on December 6th, I would have her and my other children leave their shoes outside the door. They never did get a lump of coal but it was a close thing at times. They never got to hear the pounding of the boots of Nikolaus and his helpers and the jangling of the chains around their waists and worry if they were going to be beaten on the spot but they allways got candy in their shoes. I was just thinking about my daughter when I read your posting. Assuredly if she were here with me, she would find candy in her shoes in the morning. I would see to it myself, if necessary. Tom Byro From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (07) [D/E] == Hi Kevin, that very much reminds me of the time I was waiting my turn in a country doctor's office in rural Oregon. The only other people there were a Japanese-American lady (I happened to know her - she was born in the country and had never even been to Japan) and a "local" lady in her fifties who started to chat with me. When I mentioned I came from Germany, she said to both me and the other lady: "Well, yeah, I imagine it must have been hard for you two to leave your own country and start over. Not that I'll ever know - I already live here, after all." And she was trying to be nice, for crying out loud - but still implying that no one in his right mind would ever migrate FROM the United States, not to mention the fact that the other lady was every bit as American as herself! I also think that Dutch is probably "the friendliest language in the world", but certainly not the most beautiful. Personally, I have this thing for Scots - and Russian. And, of course, I have a soft spot for my own beloved Lower Saxon - which, as I once explained, I cannot even "truly" speak. But now I'm getting reaaaally subjective - and I'm digressing. May The Ron forgive me this once. Greetings, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:38:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:38:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (03) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] Beste allemaal Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde taal in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het zou minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen dat het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? Pieter Meester ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.05 (11) [D] Ik heff de soelvigen indruck, ik kenn wul no genugh in min doerp bi Rendsborg de no to Hus met eer oellern platt snack aver all mang de kinner soelvens snack se doch meist hochduetsch, in Nederland is dat doch no een beten anners, daar dreep man doch no genug jonge luet de perfekt Friisk, Nedersaksisch or Limburgsch snakken, se suend sik wul ok een beten stolter op eer spraak. Jues in de nordduetschen stede is nedersaksisch doch meist heelsch vergeten, mi is dat ni blot eenmol passeert dat junge luet op Engelsch antern wenn ik ut spaas eer op plat anspreek, de weet garni meer dat man voer hunnert wul kuum wat anners hoeren daeich in de nordduetschen stede as nedersassisch, ik gloef dat schull een in Groningen ni passeeren. ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: digression Hallo Gabrielle, I love to hear the Scots as well. Perhaps though, this is one of those, "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder" things. I must confess that I especially enjoy hearing the women speak Dutch. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:40:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:40:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.06 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 Candon McLean wrote: <> Candon Wheg, You mentioned "Wicca". A couple of years ago I bumped into a couple of Anglo-Saxon style Pagans and they kept speaking of the "wikka". Being heavily involved in Old English studies at the time I told them that OE had a palatal double consonant and was most likely pronounced something like "witcha" /witSa/. They laughed at me and that really pissed me off. I then checked my favourite dictionary THE COLLINS and found the phonetic transscription /wik@/ for this revived Old English word. That pissed me off even more. I don`t know why this gets to me like that, I`m not even a believer!!! Gans oll ow holon vy, Perplexed-at-his-own-reaction Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:33:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:33:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.05 (08) [E] Theo, According to the etymological sources that I have read, the word 'pink' could indeed have derived from an IE root from which also words like Welsh 'Pump' (five), 'five', Greek 'penta' (five), but also the Germanic words 'finger, vinger, Finger' have sprung. The books also seem to agree that 'pink' must indeed be an IE fossil. No hypothetical reason for this un-Germanic relic was given, but the conservation of the initial _p_ could be due to the small size of the finger; in 'little languages' people tend to replace fricatives by plosives, such as little children do. For example, when children in Holland need to take their vitamines, the children as well as the parents will refer to the pills as 'pitamientjes'. Maybe this relic was preserved by children's language? Regards, Marcel. >From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com >Subject: Etymology > >Could you tell me something about Dutch 'pink'? > >There has been some interesting talking now about >'celtic' counting in english dialects. >This brings me to Dutch 'pink'; one of my old >favourites. > >Here we go: >Dutch 'pink' means 'little finger'. >Origin of this word is not known [to me, that is]. > >But always I liked to understand this word 'pink' as >the 'fifth finger'. >[Here you have it connected with the counting-talks.] > >But: >understanding 'pink' als '5th finger', means that I >like to see it as an Indo-European word, meaning 'the >fifth'. >The final '-ink' may be linked to Indo-European. >The initial 'p-' may be be linked to Indo-European. >But combining P with INK [as a Germanic construction] >is a trick I am not able to do. > >Is 'pink' an I-E fossile? >Or is 'pink' a fossile of a language very much in the >neighbourhood of Old-Germanic, eg. of the language of >the Kaninefates / Canninefates [Kennemers]? And this >is just saying that the language of these Canninefates >was not real Germanic, shame on me! > >OK, let us deal with substrates: I like making >theories about substrates, but working with substrates >in practise always turns out to be a mess. >Who helps me out? > >And: what is the first evidence of 'pink' in Dutch or >Franconian? > >All questions, but no answers, unless you ... > >vr.gr. >Theo Homan ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 (13) [E] Dear Ron, Ha! I'll have you know that the Nikolaus has been very good to me. No coal, no brimstone. So there yourself. > P.S.: And, for your information, American banknotes are now about to go > multicolored! So there! Why, did the good old saint bring YOU a brand-new box of crayons?? I don't want to risk being on Santa's naughty list as well (although my latest contributions have been blamed on Gustaaf, so I'm probably safe), so here's a serious question: does anyone know why the devil would be called "Old Nick", then? It does indeed seem odd that this is so close to "St. Nicholas" that it even has our favourite linguist confused. And is there any connection with the word "nickname"? Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:42:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: john feather Subject: Afrikaans? John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word "taakhaar", which presumably from the context is of South African origin and means something like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has revealed no other source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the exact meaning? John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:47:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:47:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.06 (06) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Language varieties - Negerhollands > From: Marcel Bas > Subject: Information needed > > my field of interest on the > linguistic field is Afrikaans, Dutch, Dutch creoles, creole languages ... > somebody mention facts about the Dutch Creole languages > This is truly an interesting subject! Sure is! In the beginning of the 1800s Denmark was still a multiethnic (minor) empire. It was comprised of indigenous subjects speaking - besides Danish (plus "Jutish" and "Bornholmsk", for those of us who believe in the Ethnologue) - Norwegian, Lappish, Faroese, Icelandic, Greenlandic, German, Platt and Frisian. (And a spatter of Bengali, Tamil and Akan in Denmark's minuscule Asian and African trade colonies. All sold by 1850). AND Negerhollands, a "Dutch Creole" in Denmark's American colony. After the "loss" of Norway, in the 1830s Charlotte Amalie (still the main city in the Virgin Islands) was the second largest city of the Danish Empire. English (and Danish too, I suppose) were the high status languages. But the colonialists' children were brought up by Black slaves, thus probably making their Creole, Negerhollands, the mother tongue of even the white upper class of the largest city in Denmark outside Copenhagen! There are not many traces - and almost no awareness, academic or elsewhere - left of this amazing historical peculiarity. The population and their islands were sold "en gros" to the US in 1917. Negerhollands itself went extinct in 1987 with the passing away of Ms. Alice Stevens. This aspect of Denmark's language history has not been studied very much, to put it mildly. For the 80th anniversary of the sale of the islands I produced a broadcast in Danish public radio about Negerhollands. The basis of the broadcast was an interview with the Danish-speaking co-author of "Die Creol Taal", Hein van der Voort. Excerpts of the translated introduction might interest Lowlands aficionados: " [sound bite] It is now 10 years ago Miss Alice Stevens, whom you just heard, died, 90 years old. With her, the language which you just heard, also died. It was called Negerhollands. It was spoken in the Danish West Indies, the 3 islands of St. Thomas, St Croix and St John. Precisely today it is 80 years ago Denmark sold the islands to the USA, without asking the population, ignoring their protests. At the time of the sale in 1917 the local Danes, most of whom were of West African ancestry, spoke mainly English Creole. But during most of the Danish colonial period, the islanders spoke neither English nor Danish, but Negerhollands, which as mentioned died with Miss Alice Stevens 10 years ago. The Great Discoveries and Slavery created a number of new Mixed languages, called Creole languages, all around the West Indian region, and in fact all around the world. There are several hundreds such languages. The vocabularies of Creole languages are in most cases of European origin, but the grammar is quite different. Negerhollands is one of those Creoles which came into being in the West Indies around the year 1700. Negerhollands looks of course like Dutch [and Zeelandic], from which it got the major part of its words, but not the grammar. Creoles are often taken to be a simplification, or even a collapse [lit. breaking on the torture wheel] of both grammar and pronunciation. That is why Creoles are often seen as an degraded, inferior, backwards, primitive version of the source language, just like the slaves, whose language it was, were seen as inferior humans. But the Creole also became the mother tongue for many of the Whites, since they were brought up and taken care of by African women. In the middle of the 1800's the capital of the island, Charlotte Amalie, was the second biggest town of Denmark, but it was not Danish which was the dominant language. There are traits in Creoles that do not originate from ANY of the original contact languages. This is why one cannot just regard Creole languages as defective varieties of the source languages. This fact was pointed out already by the Danish linguist Rasmus Rask at the beginning of the 1800's. [Rask was the discoverer of what was later to be labelled "Grimm's Law"] Creoles occupy a special position among the world's languages: We know when they emerged, namely at contact. One cannot similarly date the emergence of Danish, eg.g. Creoles therefore give an outstanding possibility to study how languages are born. Thus the study of Creole languages, creolistics, can contribute to our knowledge about how the human brain functions. From where do Creoles get their neologisms? What are the minimum requirements of grammar in order for a language to function satisfactory? Negerhollands occupies a special position for several reasons. - It was the first language about which the word "Creole" was used. - The world's first Creole grammar was published in Copenhagen in 1770, J.M. Magens Grammatica [etc.]. - A remarkably large collection of literature in the language has been preserved. [almost all of it religious, of course. I e ] It is a selection from this literature which the two Dutch creolists van Rossem and van der Voort published from Amsterdam University Press [1997]. The book consists of an introduction of about 50 pages and some 200 pages of texts in Negerhollands, translated into English, analysed and commented. The texts owe their existence to the missionaries' wish to convert the Africans to Christianity. That should happen in a language they could understand. So hymns, prayer books, the lesser catechism, NT and parts of OT were translated into Negerhollands. Grammars and dictionaries were made, and ABCs, primers and textbooks. In 1732 the Brethren's Congregation [Herrnhut] decided to mission on the Islands. Some years later, their leader, count Zinzendorf visited the islands, and at his departure he ordered a farewell letter to be written, which is the oldest Negerhollands text in existence.[sound bite] Later a Lutheran mission also arrived, and the competition between the two certainly contributed to the productivity in Negerhollands literature. But in the middle of the 1800's, Negerhollands begins to yield to English Creole. So the missionaries also shift languages and Negerhollands begins to be regarded as a dying language. The Last Speaker of Negerhollands was Miss Alice Stevens. She was an old lady, she managed to live for 90 years. Her language, Negerhollands, a Lowlands lg of World Cultural Heritage stature, died in the crib. It only managed to live for 250 years. [sound bite]. Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/scotland http://www.tjetjenien.dk/chechnya ---------- From: Elsie Zinsser ezinsser at simpross.co.za Subject: Dutch creoles and Afrikaans Haai almal, Ek het Marcel gevra on Afrikaanse verlies aan labialisering effens toe te lig: >>In Afrikaans rond die sprekers die _uu_ nie, waardeur dit amper klink soos 'n _ie_ (die tong se stand is dalk anders as >>wanneer jy 'n egte _ie_ produseer, maar in die foneemapparaat van 'n Nederlander klink dit maar die einste). So is die >>werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: /styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ Ek dink jy verwar Afrikaanse streekvariasies (Kaaps; Griekwa-Afrikaans) met Standaard Afrikaans. Ander voorbeelde is: soontoe > syntoe muur > mier As jy na Radiosondergrense luister sal die meeste aankondigers, wat standaardsprekers is, wel duidelik labialiseer. >>werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' >>werkwoord, soos in Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. Maar is dit tipies van kreolisering? Het dit nie ook in moderne Engels plaasgevind nie? >>En die middelste /g/ en /x/ kry 'n apokopee (is 'apokopee' regte Afrikaans?): in Ned. 'tegen' is die middelste /x/ nog >>teenwoordig, terwyl hy in Afrikaans verdwyn het. Soms spreek mense in Afrikaans die telwoord _nege_ uit as /ni at g@/, >>pleks van /ni at x@/. Hier lyk dit vir my dat die /g/ >>sal verdwyn in Afrikaans, indien dit nog nie so ver is by party sprekers >>nie. Dalk is die /g/ 'n oorgangsvorm van /x/ na volledige verdwyning. Die apokopee is die verlies in die middel van 'n woord. Ek dink jy verwys na sinkopee. Terwyl sekere vorme wel heelemal verdwyn het (tegen > teen; regen > re??n; bogen> boog; ogen > oog + o?? (pl) ens.) is die teenoorgestelde waar ten opsigte van telwoorde. Bv: ne??ntig in plaas van negentig. Die eerste is geaffekteerd en kenmerkend van 'hogere geleerdheid'. >>So het ons in Afrikaans berg (mountain) - berge (mountains) - B? RE (to store), wat almal van die Ned. stam _berg-_ af >>kom, maar uiteindelik al[le] drie verskillende realiserings van die /x/ het: /bErx/ - /bErg@/ - /bEr@/. >>Morgen - m??re is vergelykbaar; /g/ raak in die /r/ geassimileer. Maar is dit nie 'n tipies Germaanse verskuiwing eerder as tiperend van kreolisering nie? Jou voorbeeld morgen>m??re is ook te sien in Plautdietch morjes. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 15:50:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:50:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Tom, I never claimed that ALL Americans see it that way - how could I, since my American husband is now living in Germany with me? When my children were little, even when we were living in the States, we'd always set out cookies for The Saint, and an apple and a bucket full of water for the horse - which were all gone in the morning, of course, except for a few crumbs and the stem of the apple. I also made hoofprints with a horseshoe I secretly kept for that purpose. Of course, they got suspicious when they got older. One year, I overheard my five-year-old asking her sister: "Do you think there really is a Nikolaus, or do you think Mama is doing this?" My seven-year-old reflected for a moment and then said: "No, I don't believe it's her. Just think - she could polish off the cookies and the apple all right, but she'd NEVER be able to drink an entire bucket of water!". Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 16:33:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 08:33:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Richard Smith richard.m.smith at worldnet.att.net Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] Hello Candon! Just letting you know you're not the only one raising a horn this season! Richard "Wartooth" Smith ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Folks, I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom of leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for St. Nicolas to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa Claus coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next to each other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together for another year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. We have already discussed the Scandinavian Yule dance (family members dancing and singing through every room is the house) as a pre-Christian remnant, related to _Mummenschanz_ dances of the Alemannic areas where in the Christmas and News Year's season (i.e., general Yuletide) frighteningly dressed and masked dancers clean houses and villages of lingering evil spirits with a lot of noise. Does any of this survive in Lowlands customs? Yes, and is the Druidic "Wild Hunt" (_la Chasse Artu_) and "Furious Host" related to it? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 17:36:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:36:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (09) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.06 (03) [D/E/LS] > From: pieter meester > Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.04 (08) [D/LS] > > Beste allemaal > Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde taal > in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het zou > minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen dat > het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? > Pieter Meester Hoi Pieter, In het kranten archief van de Neue Osnabruecker heb ik het volgende bericht gevonden: http://www.neue-oz.de/_archiv/noz_print/kreis_emsland/2000/01/pap_platt.html . De aanleiding voor dit bericht is dat plat in Duitsland toen (in 2000) de status van streektaal kreeg, en dat officiele instanties geacht worden om brieven en aanvragen in het plat ook in het plat te beantwoorden. Of dit ook daadwerkelijk gebeurt, kan ik ik helkaas niet zeggen. Wat de situatie in Nederland betreft: De gemeente Rijssen blijkt een maand van de streektaal te hebben (http://www.tctubantia.nl/archief?ArchiefID=960824). Elk jaar in Maart vergadert de gemeenteraad in het plat. Maar volgens een ander bericht eind Maart http://www.tctubantia.nl/archief?ArchiefID=552925 was er wel ophef om, omdat sommige raadsleden vinden dat je over belangrijke dingen niet in het plat kunt praten. Groetjes Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 19:11:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:11:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] Hello John Feather and all, The correct form is "takhaar" and means wild stick-like hair. It denotes a low-class good-for-nothing person. The word originated in the 60's. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ================================= From: john feather Subject: Afrikaans? John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word "taakhaar", which presumably from the context is of South African origin and means something like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has revealed no other source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the exact meaning? John Feather johnfeather at sceptic1.freeserve.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 19:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.06 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.06 (04) [E] > From: Dan Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com > Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.05 > > Candon McLean wrote: > > < Jewish and Islamic holidays, why is it that no attempts are made to > include other world religions, e.g. Buddhism, Hinduism, Shinto, > Native American traditions, Wicca, Asatru, Druidism?>> > > Candon Wheg, > > You mentioned "Wicca". A couple of years ago I bumped into a couple > of > Anglo-Saxon style Pagans and they kept speaking of the "wikka". > Being > heavily involved in Old English studies at the time I told them > that OE > had a palatal double consonant and was most likely > pronounced > something like "witcha" /witSa/. They laughed at me and that really > pissed me off. I then checked my favourite dictionary THE COLLINS > and > found the phonetic transscription /wik@/ for this revived Old > English > word. That pissed me off even more. I don`t know why this gets to > me > like that, I`m not even a believer!!! > > Gans oll ow holon vy, > > Perplexed-at-his-own-reaction Dan Well you were right Dan. In Old English Wicce (fem) Wicca (masc) would have had an palatal affricate, and hence gave Modern English "Witch," which is a big clue to the Old English pronunciation. I'm sorry they laughed at you, but many religions have traditions that are counter to history or science. That modern Witches pronounce their word for their religion "Wicca" as [wik@] should be seen in the light of all literary borrowings from Old English (and a clue to just when the religion of Wicca came into being). So for example, when Kipling used the Old English word _dwerg_ 'dwarf' he would not have pronounced the the final /g/ as a velar affricate (still found in Scots _dwerch_) or (as in later English) as a vowel (dwerrow), he would have pronounced it as [dwerg]. The same goes with other words like _scop_ 'poet,' which according to the OED can be pronounced with a palatal fricative, orthographic or as [sk]. I do understand your annoyance, though. Every time I hear people pronounce "ye olde shoppe" as [ji old Sap], I cringe at the total lack of historical development of their own language. And Shakespeare's miss use and mixing (often in the same sentence) of the various forms of "thou" and "you" I find quite annoying as well. Pob Hwyl, Candon McLean PS: In case you're wondering I'm not a follower of Wicca. I'm Celto-Germanic in outlook, meaning I honor both the Celtic and Germanic Gods. If a lable is needed, I choose to call myself Glasian, from the Celtic word _glas_. C. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 20:14:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 12:14:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at cv3.cv.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom of > leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for St. Nicolas > to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa Claus > coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian > Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next to each > other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together for another > year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. Is this related to the - at least Swedish - custom not to wear shoes inside the house at all times (not just around Christmas? I am always struck by how I am supposed to take off my shoes entering a Swedish house, and how my Swedish friends take off their shoes upon entering mine. I always ascribed this to a deep-rooted aversion to having the ubiquitous mud brought into the house, but reading Ron's comment maybe there is more to this custom. Gustaaf ---------- From: Wim Subject: "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] >From Wim Verdoold wkv at home.nl Hi, about holidays....the time of the mid winter horns has arrived again in twenthe.... One more holiday to remember...also very old. One more for your list. 'Oi , dag allemoalle, Tis weer tied v?r de midwinter 'oorn bloazers. Nog ientie v?r op Oen lieste.... Ajuu! Wim. ---------- From: Candon McLean Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (08) [E] > From: Richard Smith richard.m.smith at worldnet.att.net > Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.06 (01) [E] > > Hello Candon! > > Just letting you know you're not the only one raising a horn this > season! Wassail, Richard! And Good Yule! > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > > Folks, > > I wonder if there is any connection between the North German custom > of > leaving one's shoes on a window sill (or in front of a door) for > St. Nicolas > to find and fill (which must be related to the tradition of Santa > Claus > coming through the chimney to fill stockings) and the Scandinavian > Yule/Christmas tradition of families putting their shoes out next > to each > other to symbolize their wish for all members to remain together > for another > year, which appears to be a pre-Christian tradition. That would be an interesting link. I'm also wondering about traditions of Frau Holle/Holda and Frau Perchta/Berchta both of whom, I have read, have traditions similar to Nicolas associated with them about leaving shoes to be filled by them. Do any traditions of Holda or Perchta survive in Lowlands traditions? I believe the times are similar as well, 6 December or 8 December. > We have already discussed the Scandinavian Yule dance (family > members > dancing and singing through every room is the house) as a > pre-Christian > remnant, related to _Mummenschanz_ dances of the Alemannic areas > where in > the Christmas and News Year's season (i.e., general Yuletide) > frighteningly > dressed and masked dancers clean houses and villages of lingering > evil > spirits with a lot of noise. Does any of this survive in Lowlands > customs? > Yes, and is the Druidic "Wild Hunt" (_la Chasse Artu_) and "Furious > Host" > related to it? Which brings me back to Holda and Perchta both of whom are said to lead the Wild Hunt/Furious Host. Candon McLean ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Candon, In the German Lowlands there are only very vague and watered-down remnants of the Frau Holle ~ Fru Holle ~ Fro Holde feature, mostly related to snow (i.e., winter, the season of the G. _Wilde Jagd_, LS _Wille Jagd_), as in the fairytale recorded by the Grimm brothers: German version of the Grimms' "Frau Holle": http://www.gutenberg2000.de/grimm/maerchen/frauholl.htm English versions of the Gimms' "Frau Holle": http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/grimm024.html As we have also discussed on LL-L sometime ago, this "Frau Holle" character is connected with the elderberry bush, German _Holunder(busch)_ ~ _Holder(busch)_ ~ _Holler(busch)_, which she inhabits and protects, bestowing its berries with powerful, beneficial properties, but at the same time haunting and punishing those that cut and use the wood (which is why in some traditions cut elder branches must be left lying underneath the tree). In songs and writings, the elderberry bush tends to represent protection, a safe haven for those seeking shelter from evil and distress. Waltrud Bruhn (my favorite Lowlands Saxon [Low German] poet who passed away fairly recently) features this very poignantly in the context of her war-time childhood memories in her poem "Sambucus niger - Fleeder du, du Krackholt" (_Gras, Adern, Fragmente - Gedichte/Gedichten_, Hamburg: Quickborn, 1997; please see below, followed by my translation for a planned anthology). Most people in the region nowadays are not aware of this connection between Frau Holle and the elder plant (and between white blossoms and snowflakes), leave alone a connection between Frau Holle and Perchta ~ Bergta ~ Berchta ~ Bertha ~ Hertha ~ Ertha (the second-last one being my mother's name), the ancient leader of the Wild Hunt, the defender against malevolent spirits. Here are some interesting sources: Folklore and Mythology Electronic Texts: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/folktexts.html Ertha, the Germanic Earth Goddess: http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/ertha.html Hertha Lake (Island of R?gen): http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/hertha.html Regards, Reinhard/Ron === Sambucus niger - Fleeder du, du Krackholt vun Waltrud Bruhn Dat Ellholt is en Krack, woll wahr! Maal bleev keen Fleederbeernbusch ganz dar in de Kinneertiet mit l?ttje S?cken, Fahnenr?ck un backsig sengelt Swiegen, wo all de Tanten Weetfruen Kummer harrn, de Watersupp vun Wittkohl opwaarmt geven, wo sch?ne B?ker hopenwies in?n Keller tweifetzt legen. Dar bleev keen Fleederbeerbusch ganz, beh?ll sien nieen Telgen un w?rr so gr?tter mit de Jahrn. Oh, nee. Alltieds in Harvst, wenn dar noch nich maal swatt Vagelswarms un Fr?stk?llns de Bitternis vun all de Heimatlosen starken deen, denn broken Minschen twei, Junge un Ole. Dat Ellholt ok. Rund?m Vandalen. Un w?rr en Krack doch wedder stark un stevig, denn reten se em wedder dal, un jammervull slappd?ster flapp dat Loff an?t Holt. So sehgn wi, jammervull un pl?nnenpaltern, ok alle Mannsl??d, de ut Krieg, Gefangenschap nah Huus tr??chstaaken deen. Gefangen, vun Greesen s??k, bleev?t in ehr Tarnbruun vun Beleeven. Egaalweg jeedeen l?ttjes Lachen kl??v, sleet sik m??r. Bloots Kinner truen sik noch dat Sm??stern un heegen deep ehr binnert Juuchen, wenn se sik in en hogen Boom versteeken kunn?n, wenn speelen Wulken mit ehr Ogen speelen. De scharpe Drangnis schreev sik j?mmer langs ehr Stierns. Veeljahren sneden wi Besinnen bi uns weg, in?n St?ckentakt, den sik en Scheer, de Haar snidd, klappt. Wi schoven achter Wulken, achter s?ven Bargen, den fuurig witten Kalk vun Kummer. J?st so harrn wi dat Stackels??chzen vun den drangsaleerten Fleeder un all de anner Quaal wegdrammt, ?m de de bleeken Fruensl??d ?s nachtens weenen m?ssen, liesen, liesen, heel alleen. Man n?mmer bleev de Ruuch vun doodm??d Minschenhuut vergeten, de T??n vun?t rische Viegelienenspeel verleern sik nich, ok nich de Smack vun Bakalit in?n Feverdroom. Best?nnig stuuk dat Bild vun?n D?rchslag, twei un l?ckrig en Helm, Perlmutternboom dat Ridderkruut in?n Gaarn, sien Smack vun Honnig, dar stuuk de Smack vun Bangnis, wenn ?ver Popp un Poppenkarr deep Fleegers huuljachtern un pielgenau scharp scheten deen. Denn, gau! Deep achter?t Ellholt kropen un in?t Versteek vun?n bl?hen Busch en witte Freedensfahn afpl?ckt. Mang s??t un bitter R??chels m?ssen wi an all sien Wunnerbarkeit gl??ven, dat he de Kuckuck ropen, S??kdom un Nood henwegweeln kunn. Ok d?sse Freeden kl??v, de Struuk br??k twei. Verfraren reet uns maal en scharpe Bitterruuch vun?n Grund, bi d?nne Huut ehr Sweet. Wi fragen dar nix nah un leven so mit hen, bet nu ? daar brook een Woord vun allerhand swattdr?ckte Reegen v?r, een Woord sien Sinn verquer sik un boo Biller, w??r Ellholt, Fleederbeernbusch, wo anners een Sireen, de lilla Bl??m, maal meent hett. Bl??m, de, duff un swaar vun Lillas??t, nien?mmer Feeverd?st stillt, ok nich Smacht un Bangen. Hier nu ward heel vun?t Ellhoornholt vertellt. Sambucus niger. Ohmgr??n dat Loff un sm?digwitt als Melk de Bl?mkenbuschen sweelt hachpachwild ?m?t Holt sien Aten. He w?rr dull stuur. Dat Krackholt. Wo sl??g?t an all uns Seer un Smarten un reet ehr D??ren wiet. So maakt dat heel. === Sambucus niger - elder, you, you wimp wood [Translation: R. F. Hahn, ?2001]: The elder is a wimp. For sure! Some time ago no elderberry bush would stay in one piece, then, in the childhood days with little socks, bunting skirts and burnt-on silence, when all the widowed aunts had grief, would dish out watery soup made from white cabbage, when gorgeous books would lie in basements, torn, in heaps. Then no elderberry bush would stay in one piece, would keep its new branches and would grow taller with the years. Oh, no. Always in autumn, already well before black flocks of birds and frosty chills would intensify the bitterness of all the homeless, people would break to pieces, the young, the old. The elder too. Vandals all around. And when a wimp would grow back strength and daring they?d tear him down again, and pitifully limp and dark would leafs be flopping from the wood. That?s how we?d see, too, all the menfolk, pitiful and dressed in rags, staggering back home from war, imprisonment. Captive, sick with terror?it stayed in the camouflage brown of their experiences. All the while each little laughter would split, wear itself out. Just children would still dare to smile, would hold their cheering deep within when they could hide in a tall tree, when playful clouds toyed with their eyes. The sharp pressure would always write itself across their foreheads. For many years we?d cut away at memories, each piece in time that scissors clack while cutting hair. We?d shove the caustic white lime of sorrow behind some clouds, behind seven mountains. This way we?d push aside the tortured elder?s wimpy sighs and all the other torments that made the pale women cry at night, quietly, quietly, all alone. Yet never would we manage to forget the smell of dead-tired human skin. The sounds of lively fiddle play would never disappear, nor would the taste of Bakelite in feverish dream. Constantly would the image squeeze: the impact, a helmet cracked and riddled, mother-of-pearl delphinium the garden?s knightly plant, its taste of honey; the taste of panic would then squeeze when above doll and doll?s carriage quite low aircraft would come screaming, would shoot with arrow-like precision. Then, quickly! Crawling far behind the elder wood, into the hiding place, picking a white peace flag off the blooming bush. Amid sweet and bitter odors we would have to believe in all its splendor, that it could call the cuckoo, could drive away disease and deprivation. This peace would also split; the bush would break. Once a sharply bitter smell yanked us, frozen, up from the ground by thin skin?s sweat. We took it in our stride and lived with it, so far ... A word broke free from several printed black lines, a word?s meaning went awry and started building images, turned into elder wood, elderberry bush, where someone else would have meant lilac, the purple flowers.* Flowers that, dull and heavy with purple sweetness, will never satisfy feverish thirst, nor hunger and anxiety. Here now there?s talk of elder wood. Sambucus niger. Uncle-green its leafs and smoothly white as milk its flowery tufts, its breath glows wildly panting around the wood. It went all stiff. The wimp wood. How it struck at our wounds and aches and pushed their doors wide open! That?s how it heals. *[Lowlands Saxon _Fleder_ and North German _Flieder_ are used to refer both to elderbushes and lilac bushes.] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 6 22:54:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 14:54:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Ron Has anyone continued the work of the brothers Grimm? I don't mean their "serious" philology work but their work collecting folklore. The countryside that I grew up in, of northern Westphalia, was certainly gloomy enough. I remember walking for kilometers, mostly along dirt roads, to get to school. The land was boggy and flat as a tabletop. Dense fogs would arise and at times all I could see was my feet and the eerie carven horseheads seemingly staring at me down from the tops of the houses. It was in one of those houses that one of my playmates lived. When the nights started early and the wind caused the ancient timbers to creak, we would become scared and play near his grandmother, who seemed allways to be at her spinning wheel. We would then ask her to tell us stories. She allways obliged. I should mention that his family was one of those where only Plattdeutsch was spoken. I have never before or since been transported by the spoken word as by this old woman. Some of the stories were like those I since encountered in the collections of the brothers Grimm. Others though were unlike any I have heard before or since. I remember my favorites being stories about the dwarves and the tricks played by Loki. I don't know if they were traditional stories or if they were made up by her. Sadly, I don't even remember her name. This woman though would be counted as a national treasure by any sane nation. Is anyone ut there trying to find and save the stories of such wonderful people? Tom Byro ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Tom, I really don't know if any such data gathering is still being done these days. Perhaps others on the List know. I doubt that this sort of work is still being done in Europe. I would be pleasantly surprised to hear that it is. Most people assume (perhaps not justifiably so) that human resources such as the ones the Grimm brothers and you have encountered are no longer around, that this sort of gathering ended with the end of the 19th century. Instead, people reinterprete the same old material over and over. These days, folkloristic data gathering is generally expected to be more fruitful outside Europe, such as among Native American, Australian Aborigines and the various peoples of Papua-New Guinea, in places where stories had been transmitted only in spoken form until recently and where languages are expected to go extinct and stories happen to be recorded in the process of recording linguistic corporae. I know that even in the 20th century considerable folkloristic collection work has been performed and published in *some* parts of Europe, especially in Hungary and other parts of Central and Eastern Europe. However, I do not know if anything substantial is being done in the Lowlands. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 00:32:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:32:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.DEC.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: Help Wanted re Lowland Scots In the Edinburgh area a person always ready for a joke or some fun is known as 'Right galluss (or galliss) '. Can anyone clarify the origin of this word which I can only associate with the far from funny gallows ? Is it of Scandinavian or Flemish origin ? Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 06:33:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 22:33:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up in Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see the word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Here we use the word "barrie" with the a similar meaning of Great / fantastic. Though in Glasgow Gallus can have the meaning of someone being slightly cheeky or reckless. Looking in the Scots Concise dictionary - they state that "gall(o)us" is chiefly WC dialect ( that is West Central dialect -the area around Glasgow ) and is first attested in the late 18th Centaury. According to the Collins Scots dictionary gallus "was originally derogatory and meant wild, rascally and deserving to be hanged from the gallows" - and indeed the Concise Scots dictionary has the origin of the word from Gallows too. So gallus finds it origin in the Scots equivalent of the English word Gallows - which according to the Oxford English dictionary is from the Old English galga / gealga relating to the Dutch galg and reinforced in middle English by Old Norse galgi. Remembering that Scots is descended of a different dialect of Old English from English- it could have been from that source -or from English: Since "gall(o)us" as an independent word is first attested in the late 18th centaury - it may have come from English gallows. But "Gallows, gallowis" - are attested from the 15th - 17th Centaury - it may have come from Scots itself ~ and Gall(o)us - in the meaning of Gallows from the 15th - 20th Centaury ( note here - NOT in the use of meaning fantastic / reckless or cheeky - as later use which as stated above only was first attested from the 18th Centaury but in the meaning of Gallows). So it seems - that its origin is in old English - but whether it came from the dialect that became Scots or the dialect that became English and because it's late date as first being noted as being used with this meaning ( i.e post Union and with the heavy pressure of English to dominate )- is a mute point - it is one of these words where there is so much similarity between them - that it is maybe difficult to ascertain which is its origin. So it seems to be a derivative from the word "Gallows" - which is found both in Scots and English and has it's origin in Old English - but whether it was first derived its meaning of reckless/ cheeky from the Scots or English word for Gallows - I think would be hard to ascertain. Hope this make some sense!!! The Edinburgh word "barrie" is from the Romany -we have a number of word in Edinburgh of Romany origin. Chris Ferguson ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] Theo, I should add something to the etymology of the Dutch word _pink_: another source, Jan de Vries's Etymologisch Woordenboek van de Nederlandse Taal, says that the word might be deriving from the word _pin_, because of its narrow, small shape. In Old English _pinca_ means 'point', which also derives from _pin_. The etymology is uncertain, but I happen to like my own hypothesis, of the word being preserved by children's language :p Regards, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Marcel, Theo, Lowlanders, Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating from Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish immigrants. In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can denote anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. Dutch _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting 'to fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' I am wondering if Dutch and Scots just happen to have preserved the above or if it has something to do with Dutch-Scots contacts, such as medieval "Flemish" emigration to Scotland. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 09:46:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:46:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.07 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.06 (12) [E/LS] Gustaaf Ook in Tsjechie is schoenen uitdoen als je ergens binnenkomt usance. Na daar drie jaar gewoond te hebben namen mijn vrouw en ik die gewoonte mee terug naar NL. De Tsjechen, althans, verklaren de gewoonte inderdaad heel prozaisch, buiten is vuil, of modder in de rurale gebieden, en dat neem je niet aan je zolen mee naar binnen. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 7 09:51:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 01:51:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology I wrote: > Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky > (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating from > Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish immigrants. > > In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can denote > anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. Dutch > _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting 'to > fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to > strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' Please also consider Afrikaans _pinkie_ (equivalent of Dutch _pinkje_, i.e., a diminutive derivation of _pink_) ?small finger? I further wonder if this etymological group is based on onomatopoetic *_pink_ for the sound of something small dropping (much like English ?ping?), thus the shift *?small sound? > *?small? > ?small thing? + ?doing something small?. Please also consider Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _pinkeln_ ?to urinate?, assumedly an iterative derivation of *_pinken_ (cf. Dutch _pinken_ and Scots _tae pink_), i.e., /pink-l-/ *?to produce a series of something small? > ?to produce a series of sounds of drops falling? (cf. also Danish _pinke_ and Swedish _pinka_ ?to urinate?, according to the _Herkunftsduden_). _Pinkeln_ has also been borrowed into (?High?) German (because it would begin with _pf..._ if it had undergone the German shift), though the _Herkunftsduden_ makes no mention of this borrowing and attributes _pinkeln_ to children?s language _pi(e)-_ and its derivations (cf. English ?to pee?), which I take with a massive grain of salt. Please consider as a parallel case English onomatopoetic ?ping? describing something small (especially something metallic, such as a ring or a coin) producing a sound upon impact when falling or when being struck (such as a small bell). Though I cannot attest to the existence of a simple verbal derivative *_pingen_ (*/piN-/ *?to make the sound ?ping? once?), I know that Lowlands Saxon has the iterative derivation _pingeln_ (/piN-l-/ ?to make the sound ?ping? several times? =) ?to ring? (also _anpingeln_ ?to ring on? = ?to ring a doorbell?) and the nominal form _Pingel_ ?(small) bell?, ?doorbell? (as opposed to _beiern_ ?to ring? in reference to a large bell, _Klock_, _beiern_ also denoting ?to swing?, such as the motion of a pendulum). In this connection please also consider Dutch _pingelen_ ?to haggle? and _pingelaar_ ?haggler?, perhaps originally referring to an itinerant salesperson that announced his or her arrival by ringing a bell. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:21:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:21:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.08 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (10) [E] > From: elsie zinsser > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] > Hello John Feather and all, > The correct form is "takhaar" and means wild stick-like hair. > Groete, > Elsie Zinsser Hello, In Flemish "takhaar" is "streuvelhaar" [str2:vlO:r] Groetjes Luc vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:23:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:23:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.08 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.05 (06) [E/S] At 19:35 05/12/02, Gary Taylor wrote: >I'm currently doing my duty and working my way through >Colin's Scots language learner, and at the same time >teaching myself Welsh - mainly cos I don't want to be >an ignorant Brit that doesn't know any of the other >languages from his country of origin. > >One thing that I've noticed through learning them >side-by-side is the use of the 3rd person singular >with plurals when the plurals aren't a pronoun. > >I'm presuming that this is similar in Scots Gaelic - >also being Celtic. > >My question is, is this an influence of Gaelic on >Scots, or is this feature an inheritance from the Old >Northumbrian dialect from which it descended? Also, >are there other such grammatical influences from >Celtic in Scots? First of all, it goes without saying that I'm glad another contributor to the list has found my book of interest! To try to answer the question: it's actually impossible to make a direct comparison (in this respect) of Scots with modern Scottish Gaelic. With the exception of the verb "to be" the latter language has lost its simple present tense, so we can't compare it with the present tense in Scots. However, if the feature of Scots mentioned above is due to influence from Gaelic, one might expect to see something similar in modern Irish Gaelic, which is more conservative in this respect and does still have a simple present tense. To my knowledge, even in Irish Gaelic, there is no distinction of the kind that exists in Scots; and the same verbal conjugation is used in the 3rd person present tense irrespective of whether the subject is a pronoun or another noun. As for other grammatical influences, I think the most obvious possibility is the compound present tense (for example, "I am going" instead of "I go"), which is used in English as well as Scots. To my knowledge, this tense exists in all of the Celtic languages; but the only Germanic languages in which it exists are Scots and English, suggesting that this structure is a Celtic loan. ********************************************************************* Colin Wilson the graip wis tint, the besom wis duin the barra wadna row its lane writin fae Aiberdein, an sicna soss it nivver wis seen the ile capital o Europe lik the muckin o Geordie's byre ********************************************************************* ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:55:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:55:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] > From: Marcel Bas > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.06 (02) [E] > > Theo, > > I should add something to the etymology of the Dutch word _pink_: > another source, Jan de Vries's Etymologisch Woordenboek van de > Nederlandse > Taal, says that the word might be deriving from the word _pin_, > because of > its narrow, small shape. > In Old English _pinca_ means 'point', which also derives from _pin_. > The > etymology is uncertain, but I happen to like my own hypothesis, of the > word > being preserved by children's language :p > > Regards, Marcel. > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Marcel, Theo, Lowlanders, > > Let's not forget that Scottish and American English, too, has "pinky > (finger)" ~ "pinkie (finger)" for "little finger," assumedly emanating > from > Scots _pink(ie)_, and that American English got it from Scottish > immigrants. > > In Scots, besides "little finger," _pinkie_ and (earlier?) _pink_ can > denote > anything small, also 'narrowed', 'peering' and 'winking' of eyes (cf. > Dutch > _pinken_ 'to wink'), and in addition the verb: intransitively denoting > 'to > fall' (of small objects, such as drops), and transitively denoting 'to > strike with a small object so as to make a sharp, piercing sound.' > > I am wondering if Dutch and Scots just happen to have preserved the > above or > if it has something to do with Dutch-Scots contacts, such as medieval > "Flemish" emigration to Scotland. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Marcel and Ron, This is what i found in my Flemish dict. : De Bo (1892) -Pinkel (wvl pijnkel)m. - Hetzelfde of pink, kleenste vinger. De pinkel kwetsen. -Wimper, vlegger, pinkhaar -Houten tapje of spietje dat men door het uiteinde van eene schee steekt om te beletten dat er een ander stuk van afwijke, juist gelijk men eene luns in den as steekt om er het wiel op te houden, of gelijk men een scheers steekt door eenen drilbout. Het is bij middel van pinkels in de uiteinden van de schee'n eener wiek, dat de mulders het buitenzoom op die schee'n gevestigd houden. -Pingel, ook pinkel (wvl pijngel, pijnkel)m. - Dunne reep, lijn, lange sterke koorde van eenen vinger dik. Met pingels haalt men ijzeren staven naar omhoog b.v. op een dak. Pingels om het zeil van eenen windmolen open te houden. ... -pingeling, pinkeling, m. en o. Zoo heet elke streng of pees van eene koord. -pinkelen (wvl pijnkelen) Frequent. van pinken, dit is -flikkeren, glinsteren, tintelen. De sterren pinkelen. De ijsel aan de bomen pinkelt als er de zon op schingt. -vonkelen,perelen, mierlen, sprekende van dranken. De champagne-wijn pinkelt in de glazen. Oud bier dat pinkelt. -prikkelen, tintelen, iets smertelijks gevoelen als van duizende naaldesteken. Mijn vingers pinkeleden van de koude. We know als a little poem about fingers: Ik ga slapen - zei Duimerloot (=duim) Ik heb nog niet ge?ten - zei Lekkerpoot (=wijsvinger) Waar gaan we't krijgen - zei Langerakel (=langerebbe, = middelvinger) In mo?rtjes schapra - zei Kortekrakel (= Kieremachuit, = ringvinger) 'k Ga't klappen - zei Kleenkernuit (= pink) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Etymology" > From: ntl > Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (14) [E] > > "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up in > Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see the > word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Here we use the word "barrie" with While "gallus" (/'ga:l at s/, written "gallows" in traditional texts) has been borrowed from Scots into Glasgow English and is used copiously in Glasgow, but it's common in the Scots of other areas. At our school in East Lothian (well to the east of Edinburgh) "gallus" was one of those "pantomime words" which became the cause of endless, pointless argument: "I'm gallus, you'r no." "Ye ar nut gallus, son, I'm gallus!" "I'm gallus!" "Ye ar nur!" "I am sut! &c &c &c It was also the subject of furtuve discussion about the new boy or anyone else whose status in the pecking order was in doubt, to determine whether they were "gallus" enough to be seen with. "Gallus" meaning "rough, cheerful, OK, part of the 'in' crowd" is really the same word as "gallus" (gallows, meaning the thing people are hanged on, also pronounced /'ga:l at s/ in Scots) through a few semantic processes. Originally "gallus" started to be used as an adjective to mean anyone who might end up on the gallows, as in Burns's "The Author's Earnest Cry an Prayer": Is there, that bears the name o Scot, But feels his hert's bluid risin hot, To see his puir auld mither's pot Thus dung in staves, An plunder'd o her hindmaist groat By gallows knaves? There's a natural process of semantic weakening which takes place when one generation gets a habit of exaggerating a word, with the result that the next generation understands it as meaning something weaker (for example, "soon" in English used to mean "immediately", but with people saying "I'll do it soon" and not doing it for a while, later generations understood it to mean "in a little while"). It would seem that some generation of Scots started using "gallus" for people they only mildly disapproved of, so the word came to mean "cool!" to children who approved of people their parents didn't like. Again from the word "gallows", "gallus" was generalised to mean various kinds of supporting brace (also the verb "gallussed" meaning supported using such a brace). The most common use of this today is as "galluses" /'ga:l at sIz/ - braces for holding up trousers - but in the past it was also used for such things as shoulder-straps for carrying fish-baskets and the wooden yoke for carrying pails of milk or water - a milkmaid's yoke was referred to as "galluses". As an aside, another "pantomime word" used copiously at our school was "hacket", meaning "not good-looking enough to go out with", eg: "How div ye no tak Brenda tae the picturs?" "Na, she's hacket!" Usually this meant the responder is desperately in love with the boy/girl in question but determined to deny it (and if you're reading this, Fiona, I didn't mean it! :\ Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Tom Mc Rae Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.07 (01) [E] On Saturday, December 7, 2002, at 04:33 PM, ntl wrote > "Gallous / Gallus " is very much a Glasgow word. I am from and grew up > in > Edinburgh - and have never heard it used in this area - in fact we see > the > word "gallus" as being very Glaswegian. Like you I am born and bred in Edinburgh and can assure you the term was in use among Working Class folks as late as the early 1970's when I left for Australia. I recall it being used in the Prestonfield and Canongate areas when I was a kid in the 1940's. I will concede it is probably a Glescae term that was adopted just like the ubiquitous 'Ginger' for any sort of fizzy drink, luckily this latter never quite caught on. 'Heh Jimmy, gies a boattle o' ginjuh'. 'OK whoat kind dae Ye wa't ?' Regards Tom Mc Rae (Boarn Buccleuch street. Breed Prestonfield. Steyed The Inch an Shandon efter that) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology I wrote about Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _pingeln_: > Please consider as a parallel case English onomatopoetic ?ping? describing > something small (especially something metallic, such as a ring or a coin) > producing a sound upon impact when falling or when being struck (such as a > small bell). Though I cannot attest to the existence of a simple verbal > derivative *_pingen_ (*/piN-/ *?to make the sound ?ping? once?), I know that > Lowlands Saxon has the iterative derivation _pingeln_ (/piN-l-/ ?to make the > sound ?ping? several times? =) ?to ring? (also _anpingeln_ ?to ring on? = > ?to ring a doorbell?) and the nominal form _Pingel_ ?(small) bell?, > ?doorbell? (as opposed to _beiern_ ?to ring? in reference to a large bell, > _Klock_, _beiern_ also denoting ?to swing?, such as the motion of a > pendulum). In this connection please also consider Dutch _pingelen_ ?to > haggle? and _pingelaar_ ?haggler?, perhaps originally referring to an > itinerant salesperson that announced his or her arrival by ringing a bell. I suppose that if 'to haggle' and 'haggler' are correct (as found in Dutch dictionaries), the meaning must be derived from 'to peddle' ~ 'to hawk' and 'peddlar' ~ 'hawker' respectively (if these are not the meanings nowadays as well), because it would be a peddlar or hawker who would engage in both "haggling" and _pingelen_ ("ringing a small bell"). Luc (above): > -Pinkel (wvl pijnkel)m. - Hetzelfde of pink, kleenste vinger. De pinkel > kwetsen. Incidentally, this reminds me of Lowlands Saxon _Pinkel_, a type of sausage. Is there any connection, and, if not, what might be the etymology? _Pinkel_ is eaten in various parts of Lower Saxony (i.e., the German *state* of Lower Saxony), mostly in the western parts (Bremen, Oldenburg and Eastern Friesland), also in the Lunenburg region, usually accompanied by kale (_Gr??nkohl_, German _Gr?nkohl_, Dutch _boerenkool_). In some localities it is "simply" what elsewhere is called _Kohlwost_ ~ _Kohlwoss_ (German _Kohlwurst_ "cabbage sausage," where "cabbage" includes kale and some other winter-time cruciferous greens), a thin, firm sausage stuffed mostly with bacon and/or salt pork and then smoked, to be simmered in kale or other types of winter greens. "Typical" _Pinkel_, however, is a small ("small-finger-like"?) type of sausage stuffed with various types of meat (including offal), fat and groats (in intestinal casing) -- a tiny brother of the good, old Scottish haggis perhaps, both as far as the stuffing is concerned and in that it has a reputation for being an "acquired taste" among non-locals. _Pinkel_ with kale is *the* Christmas time fare in the western parts of Lower Saxony. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 06:57:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 22:57:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.12.08 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language attitudes Pieter schreef: > Ik meen me te herinneren dat het Saksisch enige jaren geleden als derde > taal > in Nederland officiele status heeft gekregen; kranteberichten etc. Het > zou > minder formeel geaccepteerd zijn als het Fries; je kunt niet verlangen > dat > het in de rechtszaal wordt gebruikt. Weet iemand hoe het precies zit? Hallo Pieter, Ja dat klopt, het Nedersaksisch als verzamelnaam voor de streektalen van Groningen, Drenthe, Stellingwerf, Overijssel en de Achterhoek zijn (ik meen in 1996) officieel erkend als streektaal volgens een Europees Handvest, dwz niet zijnde een dialect van het Nederlands. Ook het Limburgs en het Fries hebben die erkenning. Voor het Fries gaat die erkenning echter verder (en is die erkenning ook wat ouder - de erkenning van het Fries is nog van v??r het Europese Handvest). Er zijn namelijk twee niveaus van erkenning: Nedersaksisch en Limburgs worden 'gewoon' erkend als niet zijnde een Nederlands dialect, voor het Fries zijn regels voor gebruik opgesteld. Overigens is het handvest zo vaag, dat dit verschil in erkenning er eigenlijk nauwelijks toe doet, als bijvoorbeeld de Limburgse overheid ??k zulke regels met de Nederlandse overheid zou willen vaststellen, zouden daar geen belemmeringen voor zijn. Het klopt inderdaad dat het gebruik in de rechtszaal ??n van de regels is die de provincie Friesland met de Nederlandse overheid heeft geregeld. Een ander is bijvoorbeeld dat het als (bij)vak op school gegeven mag/moet worden gegeven. Kortom: die erkenningen betekenen vooral dat de betreffende streektalen g??n dialect van het Nederlands zijn, de directe steun moet echter echt van de betreffende provincies komen. In zo'n geval wordt er volgens mij geen strobreed in de weg gelegd, de oorspronkelijke erkenning is namelijk toch al 'afgegeven' en kan niet meer worden ingetrokken. Maw: als bijvoorbeeld de provincie Groningen ineens de geest krijgt, en projecten zoals 'Gronings als schoolvak' of 'Groningse plaatsnaamborden' start, dan zijn daar geen belemmeringen voor. Meer hierover kun je lezen op http://streektaal.cjb.net groeten, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 07:05:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 23:05:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.08 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Deaf culture" I thought I'd bring a reminder of another stratum of language culture in the Lowlands that's rarely mentioned on Lowlands-L but does elicit some discussion when it is - that is to say, Deaf Culture and Sign Languages. Gestures ======== An aspect of oral languages (I use "oral" rather than "spoken" in this context because sign languages are also spoken of as being "spoken") is that as well as the mouth being used to produce sound, the hands are used to a much lesser extent to produce gestures. Students of oral languages often fail to notice these gestures, resulting in an impairment of communication. Similarly, a feature of sign languages often missed by students are "multi-channel signs" - signs in which the mouth is used as well as the hands. Sometimes a multi-channel sign involves using the whole face to add expression to the sign the hands are making. In BSL (British Sign Language) for example, if you make the thumbs-up sign with both hands then bring them down to horizontal, this means "finished at last!" In this case, the facial expression can be used to show the amount of relief, exasperation or triumph associated with having accomplished the object. However, a similar sign can be made, moving the thumbs from the mouth slightly towards a person (whether present or implied) - in this case the teeth bite the lower lip as if saying "fffffff!", which makes it clear that you mean "she's the apple of my eye". Dialects ======== I learned to sign in South Wales, and have picked up most of my BSL from people in Bridgend and Newport. Since I moved 100 miles to Somerset, I've had to attend classes at the local college to learn the South-West England dialect of BSL. International Communication =========================== I was signing with a group of Deaf people, some of whom were English, some French, and some Portuguese (and of course, one Scottish!). All the British people were agreed that, when signing naturally, the French were almost impossible to understand, and that the Portuguese were actually impossible to understand. Suddenly, we were taken aback to see a Portuguese man making a sign involving shaking his index and middle fingers, held downwards, at the top of his ear. Using a more international (graphic) form of sign language, we asked asked him if that meant "cherry". He said that it did, and we told him that in BSL we use the same sign, but make it at the side of the jaw. Then the French person told us that she used the same sign, but at the bottom of the ear. On a course in (oral) French for the Deaf in Li?ge, Mary was the only Hearing person amongst us. In the small hours of one morning there was an earthquake in Maastricht, and only Mary woke up. Next morning I was walking to classes with a Savoyarde, who signed to me, "Damn! I wish I had been woken by the earthquake. If I hadn't been deaf it would have woken me up and I'd have heard it." I understood her perfectly even although we didn't have any signed language in common. Later, I was speaking to one of the locals, a man of about 70 who was also deaf, and I and I asked him if the earthquake had woken him. He said, "No, but it woke my wife, she felt the vibrations." Again, we had no language in common - or presumably he spoke French but we didn't use it. This is possible partly because there was a context, and partly because they were able to select the most graphic signs possible. Another striking use of graphic signing occured when a deaf Swedish woman on British television was describing her experiences with books. After some time depending on subtitles I suddenly saw her, probably aware of her British audience, signing very graphically, "I love books because I can plunge into them and swim away into their depths". This isn't _always_ easy, and can depend very much on experience. Still in Li?ge, I was talking to a Flemish woman and asked her where she had been on holiday. She signed by touching the tips of her forefingers together and bringing them downwards and apart. I didn't understand and turned to an English woman who was more used to international communication, to ask her what the Flemish woman meant. She signed "Oh, it's obvious, try again." The Flemish woman made the sign again and again, but I still couldn't get it. Finally the English woman made the sign of a snake on her head - BSL for "Egypt" - and I said, "Oh, it's obvious!" Speaking Loudly (and Softly) ============================ When I arrived in Li?ge for that course, some of the "old hands" at the caf? where we met were telling me that the year before there had been a power cut and the waiters had brought candles so that people could see. However, the light was soft, so the signs soon got to be very large, so that they could see clearly what was being said. I was speaking to a deaf woman about a common acquaintance recently, and suddenly she lowered her hands and started signing with small movements so that only I could see them, to say, "Peter's slow, isn't he?" (name changed to protect the innocent!). Attracting Attention ==================== In a crowded room, you can always attract a hearing person's attention by shouting and waving (though at some risk of causing annoyance at politer gatherings). An inexperienced hearing person at a predominantly Deaf gathering is often completely stumped by the problem of how to attract a deaf person's attention in the same situation, often waving and shouting like a mad thing until some nearby signer takes pity on them and shows them how it's done - he waves to catch the eye of anyone standing near the person to be contacted, then signs to ask them to tap the person on the shoulder. Other methods of catching attention, appropriate in different situations, are banging on the table so that another person at the table feels the vibrations, stamping on the floor, similarly, and flicking the light switch off and on (none of these are advisable until you've seen the protocol in action for yourself). Walking ======= When two signers walk down the street, they have to look at each other continually to follow the conversation. This results in a situation where neither person can see what's in front of him, but they can see what's in front of each other. So each person continually reaches out to the other to prevent them from bumping into people, traffic signs and wall corners. Swimming ======== Some deaf people will don goggles at the swimming pool and have a conversation underwater, just because they can! Eating Out ========== A hearing person might say on entering a restaurant, "Table for six, please." A deaf person (after making sure the restaurant has good lighting) might say, "Round table for six, please." Making Love =========== In work some time ago the (Hearing) chaps were discussing their favourite subject, and whether it was "kinky" to leave the light on. I said, "I always have the light on, always." After some seconds of puzzled silence, they started cheering. Urban Legends and Tall Stories (1) ================================== A Deaf honeymoon couple arrive at their hotel very late. It's one of those small hotels where if you go down in the middle of the night there's no-one at reception to help you. The bride insists on champagne, but by the time the groom gets downstairs, the receptionist has gone to bed, so he goes out and finds an off-licence. On returning, the whole hotel is in darkness, and he realises that he can't remember the room number. So he gets into his car and blares on the horn until all the windows in the hotel light up - except one! Urban Legends and Tall Stories (2) ================================== The sign for the English word "but" in some sign languages is to raise an index finger from horizontal pointing leftwards, to vertical. In BSL at least, this is the sign for the English word "but", it's not often used in BSL itself. One day a deaf man is driving and is stopped at a railway crossing. He waits, but no train comes. Finally he goes to the signal box and sees a guard asleep. He goes in and wakes the man, then finds a piece of paper and pencil and writes, "PLEASE BUT". Urban Legends and Tall Stories (3) ================================== A lumberjack was happily working his way through a forest with an axe. Each tree he came to he would chop at it for some time with his axe, then yell, "Timber!" and the tree would fall. Eventually he came to a tree which he chopped at for some time, then yelled "Timber!" but it didn't fall. So he chopped some more and yelled "Timber!" again, but still it didn't fall. So he chopped more, and yelled more, and chopped more, and yelled more, but still it didn't fall. So he sent for a tree surgeon. The tree surgeon examined the tree and concluded that it was deaf. So the lumberjack went back to his cabin and spent five minutes learning the manual alphabet. Then he went back to the tree and fingerspelled "t-i-m-b-e-r", and the tree fell over. In Space, No-one can know you're Deaf (Take 1) ============================================== Probably the only complaint you'll hear from Deaf people about being deaf is that it's invisible. Here's how a well-known pocket-book on Deaf Culture describes the experience of a deaf person at an airport: "At the airport, everyone is waiting for the boarding call. Finally, they announce that people in rows 25 to 36 can board the plane. Your seat is row 7. The man at the boarding gate wonders what kind of trick you are trying to pull when you attempt to go with the first group." Of course, you might see what the problem here is, so here's what happens when I'm taking a flight: In Space, No-one can know you're Deaf (Take 2) ============================================== At the check-in, I tell the person there I'm deaf. He calls a stewardess who asks me what I need. I tell her I just need to be collected at the boarding gate. So about an hour later everyone's waiting for the boarding call. When the doors open, a stewardess comes and says, "Mr Fleming, we're boarding now," and escorts me to the plane. Once I'm seated, everyone else may board! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 11:41:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:41:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.08 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.06 (05) [E] On Fri, 6 Dec 2002 07:42:28 -0800 > Groete aan alle laelanders > > John Feather wrote in > John Buchan's novel "Greenmantle" contains the word > "taakhaar", which > presumably from the context is of South African origin > and means something > like "low, ignorant person". A search on AltaVista has > revealed no other > source for the word. Can anyone enlighten me as to the > exact meaning? > > The word should be "takhaar" which literally means "twig or branch hair" as the individual concerned can't even comb his hair. The meaning you give is good. There is another word describing a similar type of person -"gomtor" syrup beetle - These folks make a rather unattractive couple:) John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 11:59:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 03:59:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: Surnames Groete aan alle Laelanders, In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons Korrespondente Banke te vergader. Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen we?ns die feit dat daar paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook te?gekom (onder andere Hoenderdoos). Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem sou word. John le Grange ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Haai, Kobus/John! En "welcome back!" 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) afgekom het. Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 12:24:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 04:24:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.08 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Sandy, Thanks for sharing you very interesting and informative introduction to deaf culture. This got me thinking ... (Uh-oh!) It's not as though we don't have plenty of projects already, but I would like you and others on the List to consider the possibility of presenting a brief introduction to Lowlands-specific sign language features, namely what the sign languages of the Lowlands share and what is different between them, if a certain language also has a signing equivalent, etc. One could even give a few comparative examples with illustrations! Of course, this would require collaboration. Much of the material can probably be found on the Web. I could and would help with American sign equivalents at the very least, unless someone more knowledgeable volunteered. Oh, and I should mention that this would be a part of our evolving series "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net), on which some of us are working busily and could do with some help. (Hint, hint!) ? propos "sign language" ... This leads me to ask if there are signing equivalents for the languages that are "lower-ranking" (minority/regional) or officially not recognized. What about Scots? Is there a general Scottish (common English/Scots) sign language or two separate ones? I don't think there is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) one, or that, if one did exist, it is now lost, pushed out of the way by the Dutch and German sign languages. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 15:25:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:25:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (09) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Haai, Kobus/John en almal! Ek het geskryf: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= die boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Verkoon my! "Haardoring" is natuurlik 'n tikfout. Dit sou "haagdoring" wees (Engels _howthorn_, Nederlands _haagdoorn_, Nedersaksies _Hagedoorn_ ~ _Haagdoorn_ en Duits _Hagedorn_). In Afrikaans en Nederlands is die wortelwoord _haag_ (Engels _hedge(row)_), in Nedersaksies ook _Haag_ [hQ:x] of _Hagen_ ['hQ:gN=] ~ ['hQ:GN=] (_hedge(row)_, _grove_ of 'hok'/_enclosure for smaller animals_), en in ("Hoog"-)Duits is dit ouderwets _Hag_ (?f _bos_ ?f _haag_). Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 8 15:27:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:27:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.08 (11) [N] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Selma Schepel Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.07 (02) [D] Geen folkore, gewoon verstandige zindelijkheid. Ik woon al 53 jaar in Nederland, en trek altijd mijn schoenen uit op de drempel. Inderdaad geleerd van mijn buitenlandse (Finse) moeder. Het is gewoon vies om met zolen die buiten van alles en nog wat aangeraakt hebben, je eigen mooie fijne hol te bevuilen. Daar hoef je geen folk-theorietjes voor te construeren. Ik begrijp mensen die hun schoenen thuis aanhouden ?berhaupt niet, dat zijn voor mij viezeriken, groetjes, Selma Schepel, Amsterdam. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:30:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:30:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Ron schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Met mijn naam is het net hetzelfde; oorspronkelijk was de naam wel "Gagen" (tegen - against), omdat mijn voorouders volgens mijn vader blijkbaar zo'n beetje oproerig zijn geweest. Met een "Kahn" - een aak of roeibootje dus - heeft het eigenlijk helemaal niets te maken. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Dags Jacobus, Jy het gewonder hoekom daar in Nederland sulke growwe vanne soos 'Fokker' bestaan. Wel, die werkwoord _fokken_ beteken niks anders as _teel_ nie. Ons het in Nederland paardenfokkers, hondenfokkers en daar is fokmerries, maar daarenteen ook dekhengsten. Die van 'Hoenderdoos' begryp ek nie. Miskien was dit 'n skryffout gewees en was die oorspronklike van 'Hoenderloos' ('van Hoenderloo'; 'n dorp in die Veluwe-gebied). Tog kan dit gebeur dat sekere vanne aangeneem is om die gek mee te skeer. Daar is vanne soos 'Poepjes' en 'Naaktgeboren'. Waarskynlik het die Nederlanders tydens die Napoleontiese oorheersing nie eintlik geglo in die nuttigheid en duursaamheid van die deur die Franse gedwonge vervanging van patronieme in familiename nie. Hulle wou dus die gek skeer met die nuwe gesag deur sulke vreemde vanne te gee, maar hulle kon nie bevroed dat dit gevolge vir die toekomstige generasies sou h nie. 'n Ander van is 'Zondervan' of 'Sondervan', wat feitlik 'sonder van' beteken. Die Ned. woord _van_ is deesdae vervang deur _achternaam_, dus daaris nouliks iemand wat weet wat hierdie van beteken. Party mense dink selfs dat die Afrikaanse woord _van_ 'n vondstige neologisme is, wat as 't ware genspireer is op die eerste deel van baie vanne (VAN der Merwe, VAN Jaarsveld, VAN Vollenhoven, VAN Rensburg). Groetnis, Marcel. >From: Jacobus Le Grange >Subject: Surnames > >Groete aan alle Laelanders, > >In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n >aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons >Korrespondente Banke te vergader. > >Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid >Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen we ns die feit dat daar >paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. > >Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier >teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is >natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook te?gekom >(onder andere Hoenderdoos). >Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem >sou word. > >John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:31:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:31:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Ron schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Met mijn naam is het net hetzelfde; oorspronkelijk was de naam wel "Gagen" (tegen - against), omdat mijn voorouders volgens mijn vader blijkbaar zo'n beetje oproerig zijn geweest. Met een "Kahn" -- een aak of roeibootje dus - heeft het eigenlijk helemaal niets te maken. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.08 (07) [A] Dags Jacobus, Jy het gewonder hoekom daar in Nederland sulke growwe vanne soos 'Fokker' bestaan. Wel, die werkwoord _fokken_ beteken niks anders as _teel_ nie. Ons het in Nederland paardenfokkers, hondenfokkers en daar is fokmerries, maar daarenteen ook dekhengsten. Die van 'Hoenderdoos' begryp ek nie. Miskien was dit 'n skryffout gewees en was die oorspronklike van 'Hoenderloos' ('van Hoenderloo'; 'n dorp in die Veluwe-gebied). Tog kan dit gebeur dat sekere vanne aangeneem is om die gek mee te skeer. Daar is vanne soos 'Poepjes' en 'Naaktgeboren'. Waarskynlik het die Nederlanders tydens die Napoleontiese oorheersing nie eintlik geglo in die nuttigheid en duursaamheid van die deur die Franse gedwonge vervanging van patronieme in familiename nie. Hulle wou dus die gek skeer met die nuwe gesag deur sulke vreemde vanne te gee, maar hulle kon nie bevroed dat dit gevolge vir die toekomstige generasies sou h nie. 'n Ander van is 'Zondervan' of 'Sondervan', wat feitlik 'sonder van' beteken. Die Ned. woord _van_ is deesdae vervang deur _achternaam_, dus daaris nouliks iemand wat weet wat hierdie van beteken. Party mense dink selfs dat die Afrikaanse woord _van_ 'n vondstige neologisme is, wat as 't ware genspireer is op die eerste deel van baie vanne (VAN der Merwe, VAN Jaarsveld, VAN Vollenhoven, VAN Rensburg). Groetnis, Marcel. >From: Jacobus Le Grange >Subject: Surnames > >Groete aan alle Laelanders, > >In die afgelope week het ek die voorreg gehad om met 'n >aantal van my Nederlandse Kollega's vanaf ons >Korrespondente Banke te vergader. > >Toe ons aan mekaar voorgestel is, moes van die Suid >Afrikaners 'n "Double take " doen we ns die feit dat daar >paar vanne was wat vir ons as redelik grof voorgekom het. > >Fokker ( wat in Suid-Afrika allen deur 'n onderoffisier >teenoor 'n slapgeslaande soldaat gebruik so word) is >natuurlik orals bekend maar ons het ander ook te?gekom >(onder andere Hoenderdoos). >Is daar 'n rede waarom sulke uitsonderlike name aangeneem >sou word. > >John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 05:34:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:34:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.09 (02) [A/D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.06 (06) [A/E] Hi everybody, Thank you so much Ole for all the information that you have given me about Negerhollands and the story of the former Danish Virgin Islands colony. I will save your information and process it in the all-comprising web page about Dutch Creoles. The fact that Hein van der Voort speaks Danish has proven to be quite useful, because several unclear words that could be mistaken for Dutch or creolised words could in his book Die Creol Taal be ascribed to Danish derivations or Danish-inspired orthographical particularities. Thank you! Elsie Zinsser schrijft over mijn eerder gedane opmerkingen over Negerhollands en overeenkomsten met het Afrikaans: >So is die >>werkwoord _sturen_ in Nederlands: >/styr@(n)/ Negerhollands /sti/ Afrikaans /sti:r/ > >Ek dink jy verwar Afrikaanse streekvariasies (Kaaps; Griekwa-Afrikaans) >met Standaard Afrikaans. Ander voorbeelde is: >soontoe > syntoe >muur > mier Uiteraard beschikken we hier niet over fonetische tekens, maar de klinker die ik bedoel, de 'uu' in Afr. 'muur', zoals ik had geschreven, is een hoger uitgesproken /y/ die meer als een /i/ dan een /y/ klinkt (met de tong gerond en dus nader aan het harde verhemelte dan wat bij een zuivere /y/ het geval is, maar die wel gebruikelijk is voor een /i/). Toch is bij 'uu' de labialisering, de ronding, in het Afrikaans beduidend minder dan in het Nederlands (Paardekooper noemt ook 'ontronding') en zal voor een ontgeoefend Nederlands oor meer als een /i/ klinken. Natuurlijk vindt er nog wel ronding van de lippen plaats, zoals je zegt kun je dat bij Radio Sonder Grense horen, maar jouw voorbeeld van Kleurling- en Griekwa-Afrikaans als echte ontrondingsdialecten toont eens te meer aan dat het Afrikaans in tegenstelling tot het Nederlands een neiging tot ontrondig heeft. In het Afrikaans is de ronding bij 'uu' beperkt tot de mondhoeken, waardoor de mond enigszins getuit wordt, terwijl in het Nederlands de ronding volledig is en er een heel kleine opening blijft. Dit heeft duidelijke gevolgen voor de klank. Ontronding heeft bij transcriptie van het Negerhollands ertoe geleid dat een werkwoord als 'sti' met een 'i' wordt weergegeven en niet met een 'u'. > >>werkwoordelike verbuigings tot die stam: daar is nie 'n verskil tussen >die hele infinitiewe werkwoord en die 'verbo ' >>werkwoord, soos in >Afrikaans, in teenstelling tot in Nederlands. > >Maar is dit tipies van kreolisering? Het dit nie ook in moderne Engels >plaasgevind nie? Maar ik heb het bij mij weten helemaal niet gehad over creolisering. Het vergelijken van het Afrikaans met op het Nederlands gebaseerde creoolse talen kan allerlei uitkomsten geven; het kan bijvoorbeeld iets zeggen over een reeds op de scheepvaart aanwezige neiging tot vereenvoudiging van het werkwoordstelsel, maar het kan ook iets zeggen over de dialecten waar het Afrikaans en het Negerhollands op zijn gebaseerd, en het kan ook iets zeggen over creolisering. Bovendien zijn er mensen die beweren dat het Engels ook een creooltaal is. >Maar is dit nie 'n tipies Germaanse verskuiwing eerder as tiperend van >kreolisering nie? Jou voorbeeld morgen>m?re is ook te sien in >Plautdietch morjes. Dit is dus waarom het interessant is om beide tale met elkaar te vergelijken en om te zien of er reeds in het stamland zulke ontwikkelingen waren. Ik denk namelijk ook dat de assimilatie van de 'g' in een woord als 'morgen' tot 'mre' al in Nederland kon zijn gebeurd. Maar dit was een assimilatie van 'g' in 'r'. Maar het verdwijnen van de 'g' tussen twee klinkers, of het verdwijnen van de g in werkwoorden na een lange klinker vindt plaats in zowel het Negerhollands als Afrikaans (Ned. 'dragen', Afr. 'dra' Neg. 'dra') is toch op z'n minst opmerkelijk. Groeten, Marcel, Bas. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 06:16:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:16:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: luc.hellinckx at pandora.be Subject: Folklore Beste li?glanners, Maybe I can kill two (or three) birds with one stone this time.some people were wondering if there's anybody around in the Lowlands area who has collected all these "Great Stories" that our grandparents used to tell.just like Grimm used to do in the 19th century.Well folks, such a guy does exist and his name is Stefaan Top. He is a professor at the university of Leuven in Belgium (Afdeling Nederlandse literatuur en volkskunde) and he's been collecting and publishing such stories ever since I know. You can find more information about him at the following link : http://cwisdb.cc.kuleuven.ac.be/persdb-bin/persdb?lang=N&oproep=persoon&fnaa m=17689 The second bird is about "Old Nick" (vs. Saint Nick). Could he be related to all those water sprites that we usually denote with : *nikker, nekker in Dutch (cf. Nekkerspoel in Mechelen) *nix in German *neck in English *nokke in Danish I always thought these words were derived from the Latin base "necro" (necromancy for example is pronounced "niggermanse" in Brabantish), which means black, quite an appropriate name for a devil I guess. On the other hand, this word has probably been influenced by the Sea God "?gir" (related with Latin aqua = water, ~ aquarium). In this respect, maybe the story of "Ekke Nekkepen" (told in Helgoland) could provide more insight, dealing with an (impossible) relationship between a merman and a girl from the mainland. Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of leaving shoes outside the house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the inside, the more dirty it will be outside the house". It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folkore Luc, Lowlanders, > Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of leaving shoes outside the > house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And > finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the inside, the more dirty it > will be outside the house". > It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department > stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* Welcome to culture shock, Luc! Well, what you wrote there isn't really all that much off-topic. Bear in mind that China and the Lowlands are on one continent, Eurasia, and there is a cultural continuum betweeen them (never mind what fantasies circulate about "the continent Europe" and Marco Polo having discovered China). What you are witnessing in China -- and I know it very well first-hand, involving also throwing bones and fruit and vegetable peelings on the floor of homes and restaurants, later to be swept away -- is what used to be the case in Europe also, and not all that long ago (involving also animal stables and people's dwellings being under one roof and on one floor). It gradually disappeared with multi-story apartment living and carpeted floors. In China, as in Europe and Africa, floors are or used to be made from patted-down dirt and are or were perceived as extensions of the outside. Garbage thus can or could be trown onto them, and liquids could be spilled onto them, and the loose garbage would periodically be swept up and thrown outside. Because of this, floors are considered dirty, and you must always wear shoes inside and never sit or lie on a floor. This has been carried over into "modern" living, where floors are wooden, tiled, linoleum-covered or concrete and are or ought to be kept clean. You must also bear in mind the omnipresent gray Gobi Desert dust throughout Northern China, making it impossible to keep anything very clean without storing it in airtight containers (especially during those dry, biting-cold winters). My Chinese roommate used to be horrified when I walked around barefoot on our (atypically) immaculately clean wooden floor in the summer. He would swear that I would pick up a terrible disease or two and would die a torturous death, but he did not have any scientific explanation for that when I asked for it. In other words, this "knowledge" was unquestioned, had become folklore based on traditional Chinese medical knowledge that assumed dirt(y) floors. This would also explain why on a visit to a Kazakh family in Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) my Han Chinese companions would sit in a row on one bed, the only piece of furniture in the yurt, and would watch in discomfort as our hosts and I were sitting on a beautiful, clean rug eating dried fruit and sheepsmilk curds and drinking tea set on a silver tray placed on that rug on the floor (= patted-down clay) -- a truly barbarian and horrific sight for Han Chinese to behold. As for leaving shoes outside, let me clarify that the focus of the pre-Christian Scandinavian custom was not that the shoes were left outside (and for all I know they may have been left inside by the threshold) but that all family members' shoes were placed together to symbolize the wish that the next Yule none of the pairs would be missing, that the family would stay together another year. Leaving shoes outside to keep floors clean may be a much later development and does not only apply to Yule/Christmas. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: E Sproston Subject: "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattd??tsch mehr..." A song by Knut Kiesewetter - does anyone have the lyrics to this song? Thanks, Edward ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:16:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:16:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Deaf culture" 2002.12.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Deaf culture" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Names > > This got me thinking ... (Uh-oh!) It's not as though we don't have plenty > of projects already, but I would like you and others on the List > to consider > the possibility of presenting a brief introduction to > Lowlands-specific sign > language features, namely what the sign languages of the Lowlands That's quite an idea - I'll see what I can find out and if anyone else has any information along these lines we should gradually be able to pull something together. Aside from its occurrence in the story of the lumberjack, I didn't even mention that other large and fascinating area of Deaf communication, namely fingerspelling. In most countries, fingerspelling is done one-handed, using the hand to make shapes resembling the letters of an alphabet. In the UK, Australia and NZ, however, a two-handed alphabet is used. This can be traced back to Dalgrano's Glove, a fingerspelling alphabet devised by the 17th century scholar George Dalgranoch. Statistical analysis of Dalgrano's Glove suggests that it in turn was devised from the Pictish Ogham script, which Dalgranoch, being from Aberdeen, may well have been familiar with. Ogham, in turn, may actually have been a fingerspelling alphabet before it was ever carved on the standing stones. Why else would one transform the Roman alphabet into a script involving four sequences of five strokes, (left, right, slanted and dots)? It may be that Ogham derives from the Druidic tradition of Imbas Forosnai, where a poet or seer would cover his face with his hands and vast amounts of knowledge in poetic form would flow from his fingertips. St Patrick banned this practice in its incantatory form, but allowed it as a mnemonic device for recalling poetry. > propos "sign language" ... This leads me to ask if there are signing > equivalents for the languages that are "lower-ranking" (minority/regional) > or officially not recognized. What about Scots? Is there a general > Scottish (common English/Scots) sign language or two separate > ones? I don't > think there is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) one, or that, if one > did exist, > it is now lost, pushed out of the way by the Dutch and German sign > languages. Like every other language in the UK, the main danger to BSL is from English. Many hearing teachers of the Deaf only know the most rudimentary BSL and as a result attempt to either teach Deaf children to speak English, or in the case of those who really can't make themselves understood this way, attempt to teach them BSL signs with English grammar. The situation is slowly improving, however. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:26:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:26:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.09 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folkore I responded to Luc's experiences in China: > > Maybe Ron allows me to digress onto this other (folkloric) habit of > eaving shoes outside the > > house. First of all, I would like to state that it's not very difficult to > buy a mat in Belgium *s*. And > > finally I'd like to point out that "The cleaner we keep our houses on the > inside, the more dirty it > > will be outside the house". > > It's quite common here (= China) to see even young women spit on the floor in department > stores for example, so maybe China has already taken its toll of me. *s* > > Welcome to culture shock, Luc! > > Well, what you wrote there isn't really all that much off-topic. Bear in > mind that China and the Lowlands are on one continent, Eurasia, and there is > a cultural continuum betweeen them (never mind what fantasies circulate > about "the continent Europe" and Marco Polo having discovered China). What > you are witnessing in China -- and I know it very well first-hand, involving > also throwing bones and fruit and vegetable peelings on the floor of homes > and restaurants, later to be swept away -- is what used to be the case in > Europe also, and not all that long ago (involving also animal stables and > people's dwellings being under one roof and on one floor). It gradually > disappeared with multi-story apartment living and carpeted floors. > > In China, as in Europe and Africa, floors are or used to be made from > patted-down dirt and are or were perceived as extensions of the outside. > Garbage thus can or could be trown onto them, and liquids could be spilled > onto them, and the loose garbage would periodically be swept up and thrown > outside. Because of this, floors are considered dirty, and you must always > wear shoes inside and never sit or lie on a floor. This has been carried > over into "modern" living, where floors are wooden, tiled, linoleum-covered > or concrete and are or ought to be kept clean. You must also bear in mind > the omnipresent gray Gobi Desert dust throughout Northern China, making it > impossible to keep anything very clean without storing it in airtight > containers (especially during those dry, biting-cold winters). My Chinese > roommate used to be horrified when I walked around barefoot on our > (atypically) immaculately clean wooden floor in the summer. He would swear > that I would pick up a terrible disease or two and would die a torturous > death, but he did not have any scientific explanation for that when I asked > for it. In other words, this "knowledge" was unquestioned, had become > folklore based on traditional Chinese medical knowledge that assumed dirt(y) > floors. This would also explain why on a visit to a Kazakh family in > Xinjiang (Eastern Turkestan) my Han Chinese companions would sit in a row on > one bed, the only piece of furniture in the yurt, and would watch in > discomfort as our hosts and I were sitting on a beautiful, clean rug eating > dried fruit and sheepsmilk curds and drinking tea set on a silver tray > placed on that rug on the floor (= patted-down clay) -- a truly barbarian > and horrific sight for Han Chinese to behold. > > As for leaving shoes outside, let me clarify that the focus of the > pre-Christian Scandinavian custom was not that the shoes were left outside > (and for all I know they may have been left inside by the threshold) but > that all family members' shoes were placed together to symbolize the wish > that the next Yule none of the pairs would be missing, that the family would > stay together another year. Leaving shoes outside to keep floors clean may > be a much later development and does not only apply to Yule/Christmas. I am not sure if I made myself clear. Let me just say that it is my basic hypothesis that folk *wisdom* (i.e., handed-down scientific knowledge - such as disease prevention rules - acquired through experience and observation over millennia) is oftentimes passed down without the original scientific reasoning, thus ?deteriorates? by becoming unquestioned traditional etiquette (?Thou shalt not ... (but don?t ask me why)?), oftentimes with folkloristic embellishments and thus disguised as or transformed to folklore, and this tradition may be retained even after the need for it disappears (in this case perceiving and treating all floors as equal to earth/soil, even where they are not). Perhaps we can think of parallel cases in Lowlands cultures. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 9 16:31:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 08:31:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Holidays Hi everyone - and best wishes for Christmas etc, The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized Christmas? For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? curious as always George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 05:10:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 21:10:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.10 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] At 08:31 AM 12/09/02 -0800, George Gibault wrote: >The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite >characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying >the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North >America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized >Christmas? >For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? There used to be, and probably still is, a Mummers' Parade in Philadelphia on New Years. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.09 (07) [E] To George Gibault Philadelphia is well known in the Northeast for its colorful mummers. I have never seen them myself but they are apparently a very old tradition there. Tom Byro From: George M Gibault Subject: Holidays Hi everyone - and best wishes for Christmas etc, The old English custom of mumming survives in Newfoundland - with definite characters and traditional rhymes and theatre - such as St. George slaying the dragon. Are there any other signs of this in other parts of North America - or other really old customs not part of the highly commercialized Christmas? For instance - in Appalachia, New England, or in Mennonite communities? curious as always George Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 06:00:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 22:00:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.10 (02) [A/D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.09 (01) [A/D] Dag allen, Ron, jij schreef: > 'n Eienaardige familienaam is dikwels die gevolg van geleidike > klankveranderinge of klankverdraaiinge, soos my Saksiese "van": Hahn, in > Nederland "(de) Haan" geskryf, wat nou in Duitsland en Nederland as > "hoenderhaan" verstaan word maar werklik van "Hagen" (= de boer, wat in of > by 'n "haag" [= 'n klein bossie, soos in Afrikaans "haardoring"] woon) > afgekom het. Dat doet mij denken aan iemands bijdrage aan Lowlands-L van enkele jaren geleden; de persoon schreef jou aan met 'Ron Haan', en jouw reactie was niet alleen maar een correctie, maar je toonde je ook nogal blij dat iemand jouw achternaam met zo'n cht Laaglandse spelling (dubbel 'a') tooide. Dat vond ik erg grappig. Grtoeten, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Names Marcel, "Grappig"?! Hoekom dit verbaas jy dat *ek* meer hou van die *Laaglandse* spelling van my naam -- die spelling wat my met baie naamgenote in Nederland, Belgi? en Suid-Afrika verbind -- dan die "verduitste" spelling? Terloops, sommige Noordduitse naamgenote spel hul naam ook "Haan". Ja, ek gebruik dikwels 'n "verduitste" spelling as ek Nedersaksies (Nederduits, Platduits) skryf, maar dat doen ek te?sinnig, hou meer van spellings wat in die Laaglandse tradisie is (sonder _Dehnungs-H_, dus _Haan_ in plaas van _Hahn_). Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 10 20:54:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:54:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] Dear all Interested in discussion over word 'Gallus' / 'gallous'. There is a Northumbrian word 'Gallouses' meaning 'braces', which blokes wear to hold up their 'troosers'. Gan canny, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for the above, Glenn. I hope you won't mind that for the benefit of our subscribers in the United States I add that what you call "braces (for trousers)" are "suspenders" in US English (_bretels_ in Dutch, Scots _gallowses (for breeks or troosers)_). As far as I know, in non-American English "suspender" (or "suspender belt") denotes or used to denote devices that hold up articles of underwear (overlapping somewhat with "garter belt"). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 00:55:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:55:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: gallus I've heard the term "gallus suspenders" used in North Georgia to describe wide, colorful suspenders. Kevin McAuliff ---------- From: jpkrause Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] Yes, the word "Gallusses" is well known here in the US, too. [Jim Krause] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:23:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:23:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.10 (03) [E] > From: Glenn Simpson > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] > > Dear all > > Interested in discussion over word 'Gallus' / > 'gallous'. There is a Northumbrian word 'Gallouses' meaning 'braces', > which blokes wear to hold > up their 'troosers'. > > Gan canny, > > Glenn Simpson > Northumbrian Language Society > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks for the above, Glenn. I hope you won't mind > that for the benefit of > our subscribers in the United States I add that what > you call "braces (for > trousers)" are "suspenders" in US English (_bretels_ > in Dutch, Scots > _gallowses (for breeks or troosers)_). As far as I > know, in non-American > English "suspender" (or "suspender belt") denotes or > used to denote devices > that hold up articles of underwear (overlapping > somewhat with "garter > belt"). > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron Well, most interesting. It reminds me that in Dutch -some 150 years ago or so- suspenders / braces were called 'galgjes' which mean 'little gallows'. Who said we didn't have humour. vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:25:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:25:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp repp at silk.net Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.09 (04) [E] > From: E Sproston > Subject: "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattd??tsch mehr..." > > A song by Knut Kiesewetter - does anyone have the lyrics to this song? > Thanks, > Edward I do not have the lyrics to this song in print, but they can be heard on a Karussel Audio Cassette, titled "Fresenhof, " Number 839 021-4. The whole title is "Mien Gott, he kann keen Plattd??tsch mehr un he versteiht uns nich." Reuben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 15:27:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 07:27:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.11 (03) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.12.10 (02) [A/D] Hallo Ron, >"Grappig"?! Hoekom dit verbaas jy dat *ek* meer hou van die *Laaglandse* >spelling van my naam -- die spelling wat my met baie naamgenote in >Nederland, Belgi? en Suid-Afrika verbind -- dan die "verduitste" spelling? >Terloops, sommige Noordduitse naamgenote spel hul naam ook "Haan". Ek hoop nie jy dink ek skeer die gek met jou voorkeurspelling van Nedersaksiese vanne nie; inteendeel! Ek waardeer dit wanneer iemand so konsekwent bewus is van sy kulturele agtergrond. Maar dis net 'snaaks' omdat die meeste mense taamlik omgekrap is as iemand hul vanne verkeerdelik skryf, terwyl *jy* dit juis waardeer as jou van volgens die - in daardie geval - Nederlandse ortografie gespel word. Groetnis, Marcel Bas (my kort van is glo 'n tipiese voorbeeld van 'n kort, Noord-Hollandse van; dis glo 'n vorm van Sebastiaan). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 16:22:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:22:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: jpkrause Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.10 (01) [E] The custom of Mummers Plays, or parades has died out among Low German Mennonites in Kansas, where I have lived for thirty years. I only found out about it from looking up various words in Herman Rempel's dictionary. Too bad too, for it sounded like fun. Jim Krause ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 21:44:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 13:44:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: RBlaustein at aol.com Subject: Folklore Dear Lowlanders, I find this recent discussion of folklore extremely interesting for a number of reasons. Firstly, it is good to learn about the ongoing work of Professor Stefaan Tap at the University of Leuven concerning what the Grimm Brothers termed Kinder und Haus M?rchen. Luc?s question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as collectors of folktales. I recently consulted their pioneering dictionary, seeking to determine the etymology of <>. Most of the English and German sources I have thus far consulted state that "Pelznickel" or "Belsnickel" means "Furry Nicholas, Nicholas in Furs," though some admit that its etymology is uncertain and debatable. (if any readers of this list know of any books or journal articles dealing with the etymology of Pelznickel, please let me know). According to the Grimm?s Deutsches W?rterbuch (Leipzig: Verband von S. Hirzel, 1889), "nickel" has several meanings in German, including: 1) nickel, n. pr. The short form of the name Nikolaus; 2) nickel is like Hans, Kunz, etc., used among other things as a name for the devil (Myth 4, 889), Swabian nickel kobold Birlinger Volksth., 1, 349. (The Online Etymological Dictionary states that nickel in German is "a rascal, demon, goblin, (a pet form of the name Nickolaus ), hence Old Nick, "the devil." ) The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition supports Luc?s hypothesis: "Nick or Old Nick is a well-known appellation of the Devil. The name appears to have been derived from the Dutch Nikken, the devil, which again comes from the Anglo-Saxon nac-an, to slay--for as Wachter says the devil was "a murderer from the beginning." [is this the root of modern English "knacker," "butcher" ?] In the northern countries there is a river spirit named "Neck," "Nikke," or "Nokke" of the same nature as the water Kelpie, and the Merman of Triton." The English term for a water spirit, "nixie" is closely related to German words such as "wassernixe" (nixie), "nixe" (mermaid), and "nickert," a child-stealing water sprite, and also the Shetlandic "njugl," a sea-dwelling shape-shifter who takes the form of a monstrous water-horse. In the Prose Edda, Nikudr ("Spear-Lord") and Nickar ("Striker") are two of the twelve names of Odin. Several sources claim that Old Nick derives from Hold Nickar, the Teutonic/Norse counterpart of Poseidon and Neptune, king of the water sprites and sea monsters. While this etymology is clearly speculative, it is also a classic example of the linguistic and cultural survivals that fascinated the Grimms and the 19th century folklorists they inspired. As Reinhold/Ron suggests in his response to Luc, folklore includes such eroded vestiges of beliefs and practices Ges?nkenes Kulturgut whose original meanings or rationales have been lost or changed over time, such as myths becoming fairy tales or rituals preserved in children?s games or seasonal festivities. There are undoubtedly no end of linguistic and cultural survivals in Lowland cultures (and elsewhere), though these days most folklorists are more concerned with documenting living traditions rather than speculatively reconstructing their roots. Nonetheless, survivals do exist and they are well worth exploring. Best wishes to all for a happy holiday season and a good new year! Richard ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 22:20:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:20:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.11 (01) [E] To Glenn Simpson: In a book, "The Gangs of New York", there is a description of a female bouncer in one of the most dangerous waterside bars of New York of the mid 19th century, "The Hole in the Wall Bar." Her name was given as either Gallus Nag or Gallus Meg ( I don't have the book handy. She was reportedly over 6 feet tall and from England and carried a club tucked into a sash around her waist. When someone displeased her, she would knock them down with her club and drop down to all fours, bite an ear of the unfortunate person and drag them out by the ear. If they protested or screamed in pain, she would cut the ear off and add it to her collection of human ears maintained in a jar behind the bar (presumably preserved in alcohol). I used to wonder about her strange first name but it appears that it might have been a nickname rather than a proper first name. Are there a lot of very tough female bouncers in Northumberland? By the way, the Hole in the Wall bar is now the sedate Bridge Cafe, and is where the Brooklyn Bridge enters Manhattan. It is noteworthy in being one of the few wooden buildings in Manhattan. Most of the old wooden buildings got burned down by arsonists sent in by George Washington to punish New Yorkers for taking the side of the king during the Revolutionary War. According to a book I saw at the Metropolitan Museum of Art, 80% of New Yorkers were deprived of their citizenship and nearly deprived of their property after the Revolutionary War for having sided with the king. New York has allways been out of sorts with the rest of the country and could with some justice be described as not being a part of the states at all but rather an island in between America and Europe. Some two months before the South attempted to seccede from the United States, our major, Fernando Woods, attempted to read a declaration of independence from the United States for New York City, when he got busted by federal troops. I love the city and I wish I was still living there. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 22:43:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 14:43:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Folklore" > From: RBlaustein at aol.com > Subject: Folklore > > Lucs question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that > "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water > spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as > collectors of folktales. I found Richard's comments on spirits by the name of Nick & variations very interesting. Of course there's the very common "Auld Nick" in Scots and various other names for the Devil with the qualifier "Auld", the most general being simply "The Auld Ane" ("The Old One"). Perhaps this too goes back to Odin - ie, the God of the old religion, now considered evil? Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Like Sandy (above), found Richard's thoughts and observations very interesting -- even though he attributed Gabriele's question to Luc and joined the ranks of those that call me "Reinhold" instead of "Reinhard," perhaps because I seem more _hold_ ('gracious,' 'well-disposed', 'sweet', 'dear') than hard (though little does he know ...). ;) We need to bear in mind that in many traditions the kindly figure St. Nick is accompanied by one or more scary figures, ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 11 23:24:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:24:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Message-ID: This one decided to run away before I could mention the scary guys. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Folklore" > From: RBlaustein at aol.com > Subject: Folklore > > Lucs question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that > "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water > spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as > collectors of folktales. I found Richard's comments on spirits by the name of Nick & variations very interesting. Of course there's the very common "Auld Nick" in Scots and various other names for the Devil with the qualifier "Auld", the most general being simply "The Auld Ane" ("The Old One"). Perhaps this too goes back to Odin - ie, the God of the old religion, now considered evil? Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Like Sandy (above), found Richard's thoughts and observations very interesting -- even though he attributed Gabriele's question to Luc and joined the ranks of those that call me "Reinhold" instead of "Reinhard," perhaps because I seem more _hold_ ('gracious,' 'well-disposed', 'sweet', 'dear') than "hard" (though little does he know ...). ;) We need to bear in mind that in many traditions the kindly figure St. Nick is accompanied by one or more scary figures, like _Zwarte Piet_ in the Netherlands, and the German _Weinachtsmann_'s helper Knecht Ruprecht. Note the following customs in Austria: Customs connected with St. Nicholas are performed on the eve of his feast. On the evening of December 5th, the bishop and his companion(s) appear either in the old way (on foot and in small groups) or in more modern parades (and often on trucks and with many costumed characters, for example at Laxenburg, Laa an der Thaya and Wolkersdorf, Lower Austria, or at Innsbruck-H?tting in Tyrol). These big public parades are recent developments, probably influenced by the Nicholas traditions of the Netherlands. Nicholas pageants, combined with plays or at least scenes, can be found at Matrei (Tyrol) under the name "Klaubaufgehen", at Oberdrauburg (Carinthia) as "Bartel-Lauf" ("Bartel" being one of the many names for the devil characters accompanying St. Nicholas), at Haimburg (Carinthia), at Bad Mitterndorf (Styria) and at St. Roman and Windischgarsten (Upper Austria). A strange masked figure called "Thomasnikolo" (Tom Nicholas) is known only at Gams near Hieflau (Styria) and appears on December 21st, the feast of St. Thomas, and shows the interlinking of mid-winter customs which, e.g., moved St. Nicholas to Christmas Eve as Santa Claus in the traditions of English-speaking nations. The "Wild Hunt" ("Wildes Gjaid") of the Untersberg roams the streets of Salzburg on the second Thursday in Advent, the masked men representing characters of local folk legends. (http://www.anto.com/artikel3.html) Richard mentioned the _Pelznickel_. Aren't those the scary mummers that cleanse houses of evil spirits in the Alemannic areas? (The wear costumes that are like _Pelz_ 'fur', are _zottig_ 'shaggy'.) It seems to me that lots of pre-Christian trolls and the like somehow got mixed up with the devil. And names of for the devil in Sussex: Some people in Sussex used to refer to the Devil as "He" since it was bad luck to speak the Devil's name. For those who didn't hold this superstition, there were several names that the Devil went by. An old name for part of the ramparts of Devil's Dyke Camp is the" Poor Man's Wall", Poor Man being one of many names for the Devil, others include Old Nick, Old Scratch, Old Man, Old Harry, Naughty Man, Old Grim and Mr. Grimm. These names echo the ridicule the Devil has to suffer in the legends associated with him. In addition to these, the name Beelzebub is used in the Sussex Mummers Play and there may be a link with the name Puck, more readily associated with fairies. A companion for Satan also gets a mention, going under the name of "Dame Dark". (http://www2.prestel.co.uk/aspen/sussex/devil.html#main8) Obviously, these names are all taboo name replacements (which I find a very interesting topic in itself). I assume that of all religious and mythological figures, that of the devil is the most tabooized and thus has the largest number of replacement names. Grimm wrote an entire chapter about that (here in English: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/03301.html). Is not the Yiddish name _shed_ (one of several) for the devil a shortened version of _sheytan_ ('Satan'), or does it have a different etymology? I also remember vaguely that the weird-sounding German phrase (_wo der Bartel den Most herholt_, as in _Geh dahin, wo der Bartel den Most herholt!_ telling someone to get lost), which sounds like "where Bartel (= Bartholomew) fetches/gets the cider (from)", goes back to the now extinct social fringe jargon Rotwelsch, where _Most_ comes from Yiddish _maos_ or _mos_ (< Hebrew _ma'oth_ 'small coins') and Bartel may be derived from one of the devil's names (thus, "where the devil gets (the) money"?). Getting back to what Richard and Sandy talked about, consider this Old Saxon (8-9th cent.) baptismal oath (under "Low Saxon" at http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/, with English, Dutch, German and Russian translations so far) in which Germanic gods are characterized as demons: A: forsaichistu diobolae? B: ec forsacho diobolae. A: end allum diobolgelde? B: end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae. A: end allum dioboles uuercum? B: end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuoden ende Saxnote ende allvm them unholdum the hira genotas sint. A: gelobeistu in got alamehtigan fadaer? B: ec gelobo in got alamehtigan fadaer. A: gelobeistu in Crist gotes suno? B: ec gelobo in Crist gotes suno. A: gelobeistu in halogan gast? B: ec gelobo in halogan gast A: Do you forsake the devil? B: I (do) forsake the devil. A: And all devil worship? B: And I (do) forsake all devil worship. A: And all the devil?s works? B: And I (do) forsake all the devil?s works and words, Donar and Wotan (Odin) and Saxnot and all those demons that are their companions. A: Do you believe in God, the Almighty Father? B: I (do) believe in God, the Almighty Father. A: Do you believe in Christ, the Son of God? B: I (do) believe in Christ, the Son of God. A: Do you believe in the Holy Ghost? B: I (do) believe in the Holy Ghost. Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: A demon (and 'evil-doer') is referred to as _unhold_, thus the opposite of _hold_ (as in "Reinhold," see above). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 00:53:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 16:53:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] Hi all! If pelznikel relates to goblins in some dialects - could it relate to pilz? Some mushrooms - such as amanita muscaria - are extremely hallucinogenic - when not actually lethal. I gather reindeer eat them in Lapland and Lapplanders make fun of the antics of these "stoned" reindeer. I have also heard that "petit chaperon rouge" - Little Red Riding Hood - is a secret name for the same mushroom. Could we be bumping into some pre-Christian plan worship lore disguised in fairy tales? Just curious George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 15:27:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:27:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.12 (01) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.11.23 (01) [S] Sandy wrate: > >But ar thae examples comprehensive? Whit aboot: > >mat - mate - material, maternal >rat - rate - fraternity >fat - fate - fatal >fad - fade - >rap - rape - papal > >How div ye describe thir: The'r twa things here. (a) some o thaim dis (happen ti?) fit the reul - in 'fatal' an 'papal' the single consonant shaws at the 'a' is [e] - or in ither words, at the 'magic e' is implicit. fate gies fatal, but fat gies fatted - cp fated. (b) Maternal, material an fraternity is aa Latin wirds, an sae disna follae the reul. Like I'v been sayin aa alang, if ye'r gaun ti adapt English-type spellin ti Scots (an that's no the same thing as describin English spellin as it staunds) ye maun recognise thae etymological spellins as bein ootwi the reul. Nou, of coorse, 'fate' an 'papal' is Latinate wirds as weel - ye coud say at thay only follae the reul bi a happen! But that disna maiter - cause we'r no tryin ti justifee English spellin here. Whit I'm arguin is no at English haes a reul at ye can uise ti generate English spellin, but at _if_ ye want ti adapt English-style spellin ti Scots, _than_ the'r reuls aboot consonant dooblin at ye can apply ti words like 'maiter', 'hame' an the like. Thae reuls is identifiable in English spellin - the fact at the'r a fouth o exceptions in English spellin disna alter the fact at ye can uise thae reuls ti spell Scots words at's no common wi English, an thay'll than mell wi ither English words at's spelt wi the same conventions. Sae 'maiter' like 'waiter', 'hame' like 'same', 'hale' like 'pale', etc. Coorse ye need ither spellins for Scots tae, at disna kythe in English - for example, ye'v the initial consonant cluster 'skl' in Scots at ye dinna (I dinna think) hae in English, an gin 'aiple' wis an English pronunciation it wad likely be spelt 'aple' - cp 'maple' - but it's still faur mair homogenous nor the kynd o Scots spellin at comes oot wi pairs like 'muckle' an 'bukkil' or 'skart' an 'scar'. An that's the rael pynt. The affcome o no daein whit I'm sayin is no at a faur better spellin will kythe - it's at aabodie will juist cairie on uisin spellins like 'maitter' , 'haill' an 'skart' at's _mair_ inconsistent nor the feck o English anes. > >natural - nature >national - nation >feral - federal >rational - rationale >lapidary, lapel - ape >age - agar >radical - radiation >&c &c &c > >Ye can come up wi a description for thir, but yer rules juist >multiplies tae whaur they're wirth naething. Aa ye can describe >wi general rules is the simple cases. Na na - ye'r completely ignorin whit I'v sayed aa the time (an I dinna ken whit wey - it's no like I hinna sayed it aften eneuch!) at thae fremmit words (includin _agar_, at's Malay) disna conform ti the consonant dooblin reuls. This is whit wey - ti repeat mysel again - I say at ye need ti recognise Etymological spellins as bein different frae the lave. O the ithers, the spellin 'lappel' is leetit in Chambers dictionar, sae the'r nae raison whit wey that coudna be uised in Scots; an _ape_ an _age_ is regular. > >> I canna see at disna faa inti the uisual doobled consonant reul - >> compare able, maple, table, noble, bogle wi apple, babble, rabble, nobble, >> boggle. Here the is juist a conventional wey o writin final >> [l], no the >> 'magic' e, but the convention for shawin the vowel soond is >> obvious eneuch. > >Like afore, it seems tae wirk gin ye wale aesy examples. What >happens whan ye rin intae the likes o , , >(cf , ), &c? Again, I'm no tryin ti justifee English spellin per se - raither ti identifee reuls at lats ye ken hou ti spell onie wird (or e'en maist wirds wad be a impruvement!) in Scots. Anither thing I'v aye sayed is at, even whan ye'v sortit oot the Etymological (nation, etc.), morphological carefu - wi the 'fu' pronunced different in different airts, an spelt as a morpheme) an phonological ('glaikit', etc) spellins in Scots, ye'v still the problem o the English spellins at disna faa inti onie o thir categories - door, tongue, etc. It's than a strecht (Hobson's?) chyce whither ye spell thaim as they ar in English, or conform thaim ti the reuls ye'v identifeed for the sake o spellin Scots (doar, tung). But except ye identifee an decide on thae reuls first, ye canna conform thaim. Ye micht write it as a (kynd o) algorithm: 1. Spell Latin, Greek an (possibly) French words the same as in English (nation, angel, touch), exceptin whaur ye get tradeetional spellins like 'speerit' whaur the Scots pronunciation is emphasised. 2. Mak a leet o words (maistly pronouns, preposeetions, thirlt morphemes an the like) ti be spelt morphologically. 3. Spell ither words efter the English-type consonant dooblin reuls (ootlined in the Spellin Comatee blad) 4. Hobson's chyce whither ye spell the hine orra spellins like 'door' the same as English, or re-spell thaim efter (3). Sae the'r nae pynt speakin aboot whit ti dae whan ye rin inti the likes o 'ugly' an 'juggling' or 'gobble' an 'goblet' unless ye (a) decide whit the reul is - a thing ye'll nivver dae as lang's ye haud at this is nae uiss - an than (b) whither ye conform the Scots spellin o thaim ti the reul, or leave the English inconsistencies on the grunds o kenspeckleness. The ettle o this is no ti cleck a haley consistent spellin - it's first o aa ti evyte the haley inconsistent spellins the like o 'maitter' an 'haill'. > >> In , the problem is at the 'e' baith alters the vowel frae [a] ti >> [e:] (uisin Scottish Standard English pronunciations) an the >> consonant frae >> [g] ti [dZ] (or the group frae [N] ti [n(d)Z]. Compare: >> >> bang - change > >Again, it juist wirks gin ye watch yersel an no wale haurd examples, >eg , , . Of course ye can describe aa thir but >like I says afore, ye need mair an mair rules. Nou hing on a meenutie! It wis you at cam up wi thae examples, no me! If ye'r makkin up a spellin for Scots, ye can draw the line (as ti whit's a reul an whit's an exception) whaurivver ye like. I'm speakin aboot follaein English spellin whaur the reuls can be follaed, no whaur thay canna. (Coorse, i the examples abuin, ye'v the addit complication o the English [Ng] correspondin ti Scots [N] in certain wirds.) 'Banger' an 'stranger' is baith morphological spellins - 'bang-er' an 'strange-er'. (Ti be fykie, ye coud spell 'stranger' as 'strange'r', ti shaw whaur the'r a 'e' hippit, tho 'strange' is French oniewey) 'Angel' is a etymological spellin, frae the Greek. It wad be possible ti mak a pronuncable spellin system for Scots bi cleckin new conventions, like: strangre (strang-re), angre, stranger (strange-r) strangir, angir, stranger Houaniver, for practical purposes ye dinna hiv ti tell fowk hou ti say words at's areddies fameeliar in English - the problem is hou ti spell words at's no (whither no standard English ava, like _glaikit_, or English cognates like _aiple_) sae at fowk kens hou ti pronunce words like 'strang-er' different frae 'strange-r'. Oniewey, the extra problem caused bi the final -e efter -g is a speecial case - ir the onie seemilar problems wi ither consonants? Gin it's only final 'g' at causes the problem, it wadna be impossible ti redd that up. >> >This is whit wey yer "dooble-v" idea is wirthless, John - >> >it's liftin ae shui whan the hale midden wants reddin. >> >> I canna see at it's wirthless ti dae somethin juist cause ye canna dae >> aathing. Apply that wey o leukin at it ti life in general, an naething wad >> ivver be duin! Dooble dis awa wi onie ambiguities aboot the >> pronuncin o >> words like 'ivver', 'rivven' an siclike bi uisin a convention >> at's weel kent >> in the likes o 'hidden'. > >But we'r no applyin it tae life in general, we'r juist applyin >it tae English spellin - applyin it tae a system for writin >naething mair than the 40-odd phonemes o English. It juist >shows ye what a mire ye'v gotten yersel intae whan ye think >the natur o life in general is a appropriate analogy for >English spellin! > >Fowk haes tae can write, an write richt. Fowk wi nae spaecial >intellectual pretensions should can maister a spellin system >tae the pynt whaur they can write wi some confidence. They >_should_ can dae aathing - it's only 40-odd phonemes! Ti begin wi, spellin is life in general - in Scotland, oniewey - cause it's a maiter o psychology - no sae muckle hou the langage shoud be spelt, as whit fowk will accept. In fact, ye coud compare it ti poleetical ideologies. The'r some at believes (or uised ti) in bringin in Utopia bi violent revolution (compare raidical spellin systems) an ithers at believes at ye'll nivver hae perfection, an oniething ye dae maun be bi greement. The differ is at it's _possible_ ti hae a nearhaund perfect spellin system the wey at it's no possible ti hae a perfect society; but _successful_ spellin systems haes aften no been perfect ava - like English, Faroese, Chinese. Whit thay maun be is stable. The thing aboot intellectual pretensions coud be sayed the ither wey. The less intellectual pretensions fowk haes, the less thay'll likely can be bathered wi oniething at's ower different frae the fameeliar English. Unless ye can teach thaim it frae primary wan in schuil, that is. > >> >I dout we can say that English orthographic rules is descriptive, >> >but asweel, that it's no possible tae mak a daecent description >> >o'd the wey it stauns. Ye end up wi circular airgyments, aa in >> >conflick wi ane anither. >> >> Ay, that's fairly true - but ye dinna need airguments ti describe >> somethin. >> Aa ye maun dae is describe whit's actually there - ie, ye can describe the >> mat-mate reul wi'oot tryin ti justifee it. Is it no tryin ti inhaud things >> at disna fit at maks maist o the fause threips? The 'dooble v' >> reul is juist > >But ye _canna_ describe it. You'r giein ae rule, ignorin aa >exceptions an speakin as tho ye'r describin English spellin. Na - I'm ettlin ti describe juist eneuch o't ti shaw hou it's possible ti spell non-English words ti mell wi't. Ti dae that, ye only hiv ti shaw the braid conventions - exceptions disna maiter. Ye can aither juist ignore thaim, or redd thaim up efterhaund if ye like. Ye canna decide whither or no ti conform wirds til a reul except ye decide whit the reul is first. Gin the dooble consonant reul can be shawn for maist aa consonants, than ye can spell Scots words wi the same consonants that wey - an that's maistly whit we dae oniewey, for example, whan we spell 'laddie' an 'tattie' an no 'ladie' an 'tatie'. >Yer rule's insignificant compared wi what a richt description >o English orthography wad tak. But whit wad the proportions be? Hou monie words wad ye need ti redd up (or ignore), compared wi anes ye wadna? In ither words, hou comprehensive a description o English spellin div ye actually need ti come up wi reuls for spellin Scots? Naither "description" is ony >uise for onything - ane's ower simple tae help fowk tae spell >mair than the simplest wirds, the ither's ower complicate for >onybody tae apply. But aften it's spellin the simple words - like 'aiple' an 'maiter' - whaur the problems kythes. > >> flittin 'v' frae the list o exceptions whaur the dooblin reul disna wirk, >> inti the 'body o the Kirk' as ye micht say, an it haes the advantage o >> makkin it less likely at fowk is gaun ti rhyme 'ivver' wi 'fiver' raither >> nor wi 'liver' (at wad than be 'livver' in Scots). It's a hauf-wey hoose, >> recognisin at (a) even gin ye div spell words wi English-like spellins (b) >> ye still canna lippen on fowk ti pronunce the Scots words richt bi sheer >> fameeliarity, like ye can in English. > >But it disna tak ye a significant step nearer a mensefu spellin >system - ye'v hunders o rules an exceptions tae redd up yit. >Bi the time ye'v redd aathing up ye'll be left wi a radical >spellin system - ye'd a been a sicht better aff startin wi a >radical spellin system in the first place! I dinna believe this. Aince ye'v waled oot the Etymological an Morphological anes, an acceptit at ye can aither ignore or redd the orra English anes, I dinna believe it wad tak aa this ti come up wi a raisonable wey o spellin onie wird ye come ower at's aither no fameeliar frae standard English, or at haes ti be altert frae the English spellin. Juist for a experiment, I'll gang throwe the abuin paragraph wird bi wird an pit thaim in categories (whaur thay can belang mair nor ae catogory - eg: 'or' or 'ignore' - it disna maiter - it's whaur thay dinna fit inti onie category at the'r a problem; an the'r ithers at coud be spelt aither morphologically - duina - or phonologically - dinna.) Morphological spellins: I, ye, ye'v, wad, wi, hae-s, the, an, ane-s, or, it, ti, up, a, o, no, frae, be, for, I'll. Etymological spellins (altert or no): etymological, morphological, acceptit, ignore, raisonable (Fr raison), fameeliar, experiment, paragraph, standard, aa (airguably, cause o the hippit final /l/) (dia)Phonological Spellins: dinna, believe, wale, oot, can, orra, wey, spellin, onie, wird, ower, aither, altert, juist, gang, throwe, abuin, (this). Orra Anes redd - tradeetional spellin - shoud be follaein normal convention tak - tradeetional spellin - shoud be come - English spellin - shoud be English - English spellin - shoud be aince - airguably shoud be _ance_ cause o _ane_. This seems ti me ti fit inti the scheme I'v been speakin aboot. The feck o wirds is the wee 'morphological' anes, at can be leetit. Whan ye'v waled oot thaim an the 'etymological' (Laitin, Greek, French) anes (whaur onie alterations is foondit on the phonological spellins - eg: 'ignore' wi a follaein 'e' at's no i the Laitin, an emphasis o 'ee' soonds in wirds like 'speerit') ye'r left wi maistly wirds at follaes fairly easy reuls. Onie problems wi spellin thaim - like 'aither' 'either' or 'aether' - is (dia)phonological questions at ye wad hae wi a raidical system an aa (except 'this' at I'v left here raither nor i the morphological category ti shaw up the want o a sinderin atween [T] an [D] in English.) The lave - the orra anes - ye can aither conform ti phonological spellins or English/tradeetional fameeliarity. I wad jalouse at, in maist paragraphs o this lenth, this wad be the case, wi only the odd ane thrawin up a anomaly (or whiles juist conflict wi English pronunciations) like 'fin(n)d' or 'strang-er' at wad need mair raidical surgery - or wadna, gin ye decidit at the Scots spellins wis a system in thairsels an shoudna need sindert frae English pronuncins. In ither wirds, whaur ye finnd a heap o exceptions in a dictionar, in actual texts I jalouse ye dinna finnd thaim that aften. >> This is a hauf-wey-hoose airgument, but ye _coud_ cleck a mair regular >> spellin foondit on English-like spellins. Here ye wad - for >> example - spell >> 'chainge' an 'aible', keepin the 'e' no cause it's a magic 'e' in >> thir cases >> but cause final an = [dZ] is ither orthographic conventions. In >> ither words, cause the final canna wirk here, ye wad faa back >> on anither >> wey o shawin the vowel soond - bi a digraph. I canna see whit wey >> this wadna >> wirk, unless by 'wirk' ye mean at nae exceptions is allooed. It >> still wadna >> be completely regular, but it wad be mair regular nor the wey Scots is >> maistly written evenou. > >It's no that nae exceptions can be alloued in a system - but >a system that leaves us wi hunders o exceptions isna wirth >onything. I think ye need tae try an git some perspective on >juist hou mony rules the ar in English spellin (an traditional >Scots is waur) an juist hou mony exceptions the ar tae maist >rules. Ay - but hou monie actual wirds is thae reuls takkin tent o? Aiblins a puckle reuls dis for the maist feck o wirds, an it taks a fouth o reuls ti tak tent o a puckle exceptions? > >A wad say that exceptions is mensfu for awfu common wirds - it's >better tae write "we" an "be" an save the bather o extrae letters >for things that ony reader uizes that aften he disna need rules >tae mind them, an whaur the wirds is uized that aften that the >letters saved is significant. Ye micht mak exceptions for antrin >foreign wirds or even allou something like twice as mony rules >wi the wey Scots an English is baith creoles wi Saxon an Latin >strynds. But no hunders o exceptions tae vernear every rule! Hou monie reuls can ye gie hunders o exceptions for? An whit div ye mean bi a exception - is aa the words wi final 'g' coontit as single exceptions, for example? Insteid o reuls, ye coud think on it as analogies. Maist Scots words haes conventional analogies in English, for example _muckle_ wi _buckle_. Whit I'm tryin ti dae is recognise the common conventions sae ye can spell bi analogy wi thaim. The exceptions disna maiter, cause ye dinna want ti spell bi analogy wi thaim. Oniewey, ye can tak it ye'v wun the airgument! Whit this aa pruves is at onie spellin at's thocht up for Scots will be uised bi precisely ae bodie - the ane at thocht it up. The consequences can be seen in this threip - at insteid o wirkin til a common spellin frae a common approach, we'r wirkin awa frae a common spellin frae differin approaches. Oniewey, the boddom line is - aither ye'v ti spell Scots wi somethin like the tradeetional spellins (at, for practical ettles, nou means maistly English-influenced anes), or ye'v ti spell it some ither wey, an mak it less readable ti maist readers. An wha's gaun ti dae that? John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 15:29:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 07:29:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.12 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson westwylam at yahoo.co.uk Subject: ""Etymology" [E] FAO Tom Byro - Tom, Thanks for that - found it very amusing. I'm very interested in the fact that in the US some words have survived in there. It reminds me of a song we have in the region - Cushie Butterfield: 'She's aa big lass 'an aa bonny wern [one] and she lykes [likes] hor [her] beor [beer], Wuh [we] caal [call] hor Cushie Butterfield 'an wu [we] wish she wez [was] heor' [here]. Who knows it might be her! Are there records of any Northumrian survivals in North America? Gan canny, Glenn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 17:28:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:28:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.11 (05) [E] On Wednesday 11 December 2002 14:44, Richard wrote: > (if any readers of this list know of any books or > journal articles dealing with the etymology of Pelznickel, please let me > know). I didn't find anyhting for 'Pelznickel' but went off on a tangent with 'Pumpernickel'. Several etymologies claim that is "to break wind" + goblin, or 'devil's fart'. bob ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Ron, Surely the etymology for the Yiddish "shed" could be found instead in the Babylonian "sheddu." Yours, Fr Andreas Richard Turner. ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E] Sandy Fleming s: >Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben". >Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes >from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner) >room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben". Dit herinner my aan 'n woord in Afrikaans, "nikker", wat ook "duiwel" kan beteken. In Nederlands is "nikker" egter 'n diskriminerende benaming vir 'n swart persoon, maar ek vermoed dat di Nederlandse vorm 'n vorm van "neger" is. Groetnis, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca: > If pelznikel relates to goblins in some dialects - could it relate to pilz? > Some mushrooms - such as amanita muscaria - are extremely hallucinogenic - > when not actually lethal. I gather reindeer eat them in Lapland and > Lapplanders make fun of the antics of these "stoned" reindeer. I have also > heard that "petit chaperon rouge" - Little Red Riding Hood - is a secret > name for the same mushroom. Could we be bumping into some pre-Christian > plan worship lore disguised in fairy tales? Even though I still prefer the theory that this _Pelz_ in _Pelznickel_ refers to "fur" rather than to "mushroom" (because _Pelznickel_ mummers wear shaggy fur suits (looking like Bigfoot or the Yeti), and Standard German _Pilz_ 'mushroom' tends to have equivalents like _Schwammerl_ in Bayuvarian German dialects, thus "little sponge"), I can confirm that hallucinogenic mushrooms used to be ingested in pre-Christian religious circles (also after introduction of Christianity). You will find this sort of information in cultural anthopological literature, and I guess there are reasons why it is not disseminated in the popular media. In many religious practices the world over -- particularly well known with regard to Africa, Siberia, and the Americas, also South Asia, Central Asia and Korea -- altered (supposedly heightened) states of consciousness are sought, sometimes only by the shaman (who mediates between this world and another, heals and "channels" spirits of the deceased), oftentimes by select groups of participants or indeed all participants. This was (and is) clearly the case in various indigenous religions of Europe as well. Commonly used methods (used by themselves of in combinations) of achieving altered states of consciousness are as follows: * entrancing music/percussion and/or dancing, or simply repetitive movements, such as bowing or twirling (African, Afro-Caribbian, Siberian and American shamans, twirling continued by Islamic Mehlevi Sufi dervishes) * physical hardship ("approaching the brink of death"); e.g., ... - pain to a level of semi-consciousness, trance or unconsciousness (e.g., certain self-imposed practices of Hindu Sadhus, Lakota youths hanging from hooks piercing their flesh, perhaps continued in some forms of penitence practices by Christian monks and in Spanish and Filipino Easter processions) - extreme exhaustion and/or sleep deprivation (as in Native American vision quests and certain self-imposed practices of Hindu Sadhus) - exposure to extreme temperature (as in Native American vision quests, and in Siberian and American sweat lodges [probably also the origin of the sauna]) * ingestion of mind-altering substances; e.g., - ingesting alcohol (by way of fermented fruit or brews) - inhaling smoke from tobacco or other herbs (as in Native American pipe rituals [which are rarely performed; thus tobacco has the first-time smoker effect]) - ingesting plants with halucinogenic properties (commonly herbs and roots, also mushrooms [e.g., American peyote (_Lophophora williamsii_)], including mushrooms that would have lethal effects if taken in larger quantities, in Europe especially the "magic mushroom," the red-capped fly agaric [_Amanita muscaria_, German _Fliegenpilz_, _Narrenschwamm_, Dutch _vliegenzwam_, Danish _r??d fluesvamp_, Norwegian _r??d fluesopp_, Swedish _r??d flugsvamp_, Finnish _punak??rp??ssieni_, Estonian _Punane k????rbseseen_, Hungarian _L??gy??l?? gal??ca_, Polish _muchomor czerwony_, Russian _?????????????? ??????????????_, Turkish _sinek mantar??_, Spanish _falsa oronja_, _ag??rico pintado_, _oronja pintada_, _oronja matamoscas_, Portuguese _, Chinese ???? ????, Japanese ?????????????????????]) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 18:05:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 10:05:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Hi, Ron. You prefer to maintain that _pelz_ in _Pelznickel_ indeed denotes 'fur'. As a frequent visitor of Austria and someone who is interested in particularly the Carinthian culture this makes perfect sense to me. In Tyrol as well as in Carinthia the 'Perchten' are men clad in fur, with big, horned snapping heads that chase people. They are said to scare off the bad winter spirits. Around Fassnacht (Fasching, Carneval) they haunt the streets in many towns. What is most striking is their fur and wild, beast-like appearance. Maybe the Pelznickel is in fact the same mythological figure. Regards, Marcel Bas. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Marcel, I believe that they are the same, that those _Perchten_ were originally members of the entourage of Frau Perchta (> Perchte) ~ Berchta ~ Bertha ~ Hertha ~ Ertha in the "Wild Hunt" in which during Yuletide human habitation is liberated from evil spirits. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 12 16:21:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 08:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.10 (05) [E/V] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Folklore > > In many religious practices the world over -- particularly well known with > regard to Africa, Siberia, and the Americas, also South Asia, Central Asia > and Korea -- altered (supposedly heightened) states of consciousness are > sought, sometimes only by the shaman (who mediates between this world and > another, heals and "channels" spirits of the deceased), oftentimes by > select > groups of participants or indeed all participants. This was (and is) > clearly the case in various indigenous religions of Europe as well. I seem to recall reading something recently suggesting that the Oracle at Delphi used an altered state of consciousness resulting from gases rising out of a fissure in the earth (connected with thermal/seismic activity such as a hot spring, if I recall correctly). The Greek word used in the New Testament for witchcraft or sorcery is "pharmakeia", from which we get the word "pharmacy", and which evidently referred to the use of herbs, either for potions or to achieve an altered state of consciousness. It also referred to medications. But this is starting to go far afield from Lowlands languages. Kevin Caldwell ---------- From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (08) [E] Hooi Aelemael, 'k heb stel intres in het naem van den Goddin die in standdaart Nederlands 'Frija' word, men die van de Noordse Goddin 'Freyja' wil zyn. Hoe gaet 't in Vest Valemstael? Kan ieman me enige informatie geven? 'k ben Prester in yenst aen de Goddin en vil het me viel plezier, als ieman wat me voortellen? Dank en maeg de Goddin Zy Ge zegendt. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:11:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:11:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at worldonline.co.za Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (03) [E] Haai almal, Marcel, ek ken die woord 'nikker' vir duiwel glad nie in Afrikaans nie. Dalk verwar jy dit met 'nikkerbol' - 'n ronde swart soethoutsmakende lekkergoed, of 'Niek' - wat wel die duiwel impliseer. Groete Elsie Zinsser =================================================== > Dit herinner my aan 'n woord in Afrikaans, "nikker", wat ook "duiwel" kan beteken. ---------- From: Marcel Bas Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.12 (04) [E] Ron, The connection that _Nickel_, _Niklaus_ and other mythological figures like the Tyrolean _Perchten_ seem to have throughout the Germanic Western European countries, reminded me of the _Kluse_ in Switzerland; ne of the most peculiar and beautiful events in the Alpine region that I can think of. It happens in the Swiss kanton of Appenzell. There the Kl use come into action on 'new' Silvester, December 31st, and on old Silvester according to the Julian calendar on the 13th of January, from dusk till deep in the night. If the date is on a Sunday, then the Kluse come the Saturday before. Houses and farms are being visited by these men in traditional costumes, wearing wooden masks. On their heads they wear a huge wooden hat with a wide square frame. The rimmed frame can be positioned vertically or horizontally. The big rim is adorned with mirrors, emroidered flowers and little scenes of farming life. On top of the horizontal hat there are dolls standing, who also symbolise farmers. The men are called _Silvesterkl use_ or _Silvschterchlause_ (Silvester = New Year's Eve)and after they they have been admitted to a house they will sing in the yard a "Jodellied" (known as _Z uerli_), a capella, with the three of them. They wear huge cowbells around their bodies, which chime when they mover from house to house, jumping and turing around. The bells are called _Schotteschelle_. There are three types of Kluse; there are the _w eschte_, the _schne_ and the _Wald-_ or _Naturkl use_. I have some recordings (on video and audio) of Kluse singing to a farmer's couple. Their singing is very clear and pure. On a videorecording a farmer's couple was so touched by the singing of a group (_Schuppel_) of _sch ne Kluse_ that they started crying. After the visit the Kl use receive a hot drink and they remain unidentified. This, or at least the name, should be related to all the aforesaid mythological figures of Nickel and the like. Regards, Marcel. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Thanks for the description above, Marcel, which, although not Lowlandic, is quite interesting, since it fits into the general theme of "spirit cleansing" and mumming traditions that are specific to Yuletide. Also, the Alemannic words _Kluse_ (pl. _Kl?se_ ~ _Kl?si_) and _Chlaus(e)_ (pl. _Chl?use_) must be related to _St. Nicolaus_, etc., considering also the name _Santichlaus_. A page with pictures: http://afro-data.com/heiner/char9801/char9801.htm A sample of a Chlause song (Chlause-Z?uerli): Brief: http://www.alpeblueme.ch/musik_s2.html Full: http://www.alpeblueme.ch/music/alpeblueme2.mp3 It is also important to consider that many of the Alpine regions, like all of France, much of Spain and Portugal, parts of Flanders and the Netherlands and, of course, the British Isles, have pre-Germanic Celtic roots, which are also found farther east along the Danube. Apart from this, most of these areas used to be Roman colonies. So it would be rather interesting to see if there are common features in Yuletide, mumming and Halloween traditions. As far as I know, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) region, like Scandinavia and much of the Frisian regions do not have Celtic strata (their pre-Germanic ethnicities being unknown), nor were they ever integrated into the Pax Romana (the Roman legions having been sent packing by the Germanic tribes that inhabited the then densely wooded parts of Europe). It would be interesting to look at major folkloristic differences in these two regions. Lowlanders, today is Friday the 13th, in many traditions an unauspicious date. This prompts me to ask what sorts of superstitions of this nature there are in the Lowlands, how far they are spread, etc. Bear in mind, though, that recent spread through the media ought to be discounted. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:13:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:13:37 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore > Lowlanders, today is Friday the 13th, in many traditions an unauspicious > date. This prompts me to ask what sorts of superstitions of this nature > there are in the Lowlands, how far they are spread, etc. Bear in mind, > though, that recent spread through the media ought to be discounted. Oops! That was supposed to be "inauspicious," of course. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 16:40:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:40:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.13 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze??uws) ======================================================================= From: carmel bruggen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] pink is in het limburgs ook een kalf van een jaar oud, volgens mij niet alleen in het Limburgs, maar ook in het Nederlands Marcel Grubben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Welkom bij Lowlands-L, Marcel! Lowlanders, under "Folklore" I wrote about technics of inducing shamanist altered states of consciousness, and among other: > - ingesting plants with halucinogenic properties (commonly herbs and > roots, also mushrooms [e.g., American peyote (_Lophophora williamsii_)], > including mushrooms that would have lethal effects if taken in larger > quantities, in Europe especially the "magic mushroom," the red-capped > fly agaric [_Amanita muscaria_, German _Fliegenpilz_, _Narrenschwamm_, > Dutch _vliegenzwam_, Danish _r??d fluesvamp_, Norwegian _r??d > fluesopp_, Swedish _r??d flugsvamp_, Finnish _punak??rp??ssieni_, > Estonian _Punane k????rbseseen_, Hungarian _L??gy??l?? gal??ca_, > Polish _muchomor czerwony_, Russian _?????????????? ??????????????_, > Turkish _sinek mantar??_, Spanish _falsa oronja_, _ag??rico pintado_, > _oronja pintada_, _oronja matamoscas_, Portuguese _, Chinese ???? ????, > Japanese ?????????????????????]) Incidentally, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) names for the mushroom are as follows: /fleig-n+stoul/ _fleygenstoul_ ~ _Flegenstohl_ ~ _Fleigenstauhl_ ("fly stool") /kreig-n+stoul/ _kreygenstoul_ ~ _Kregenstohl_ ~ _Kreigenstauhl_ ("? stool") /pog-n+stoul/ _poggenstoul_ ~ _Poggenstohl_ ~ _Poggenstauhl_ ("toad stool") I do not know the etymology of _Kregen..._. Does anyone else? _Poggenstohl_ ~ _Poggenstauhl_ is also a general word for 'mushroom', not only of poisonous mushroom (cf. English "toadstool") but indeed of *any* mushroom! Is this not also the case in Scots, where _puddock-stuil_ means both 'mushroom' and 'toadstool'? Might "toadstool" also be the original English word for both, while "mushroom" (< French _mousseron_) was introduced especially for edible mushrooms? Compare also Dutch _paddestoel_ and _zwam_, also W. Frisian _poddestoel_, for all types of mushrooms, a poisonous one being marked (_vergiftige paddestoel_, cf. German _Giftpilz_, LS _giftig Poggenstohl_ [_gift(ig)_ 'poison(ous)'], Plautdietsch _jeftje Pilskje_ [_jeft(ich)_ 'poison(ous)']). Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 13 18:14:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.05 (04) [D/E] Estimado Ron (Rum) y dem?s aficionados de lenguas de pa?ses bajos, In 1946, when I was new in Puerto Rico, with one year of university, majoring in physics, I was bemused that we had speed limit signs in mph and cars with speedometers in mph, but all distances and "milestones," actually kilometer stones, left by the Spaniards in 1898 in kilometers. Kilometer stones are called "mojones," literally "wet ones," the identical word for "turds." Actually, we had one old International carry-all with the speedometer in kph and I delighted in showing visitors around,speeding around our cliffside curves as my victims thought it was mph they were enduring. At that time we bought milk in "litros," but they were actually quarts. Now rum (ron) and wine come in 750 ml. bottles. We buy gas in liters, but brag that our cars get 28 miles per gallon. I don't know who actually calculates that. And of course, soda pop in 2 l. bottles. But the real nitty-gritty is in machine parts, especially bolts, as we buy machines made in the US with Kawasaki engines, etc. I have machines with metric threads, but the heads are in the American "system," taking fractional inch size wrenches! Here's another goodie: I was brought up to believe that a 1/2 " bolt had a shaft diameter of 1/2", but some manuals describe a machine screw as a "13 mm bolt." Come to find out, this means that the bolthead takes a 13 mm wrench, but I haven't the foggiest what the shaft diameter or threads per inch, excuse me, it couldn't be per inch, or per meter or per millimeter. Per centimeter would be a poor choice. AAAAAgh! I'm sorry. There is a message to all my ranting. I do believe that eventually international matching and mixing will force the US to go metric and as yet I have no metric taps, dies or drills. ?V?lgame Dios! Jorge Potter from a confused island ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words ?Hola, Jorge! T? escribiste (arriba): > Estimado Ron (Rum) ... Ahora el hombre de la isla confusa me ha confundido... ?Est? "Rum" una palabra de la medida, la bebida alcoh?lica ("ron"), o es ?l relacionado a Rum, la parte europea de Turqu?a, y a Rumi, el gran maestro de los Sufis? Lo sospecho est? la bebida. ?Pero soy un te'-totaller (aunque el ron era realmente mi licor preferido en una de mis vidas anteriores)! Respeto amistoso, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:08:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:08:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.14 (01) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.13 (03) [D/E] > From: carmel bruggen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.08 (03) [D/E] > > pink is in het limburgs ook een kalf van een jaar > oud, volgens mij niet > alleen in het Limburgs, maar ook in het Nederlands > > Marcel Grubben > ------------- reactie van Theo Homan: Ja, dat is mij bekend. Maar ik vermeldde het niet, om niet te oeverloos te worden. Bij woorden van onbekende afkomst [net als trouwens bij onderwerpen als folklore en zo] sta je al gauw tot je borstkas in het moeras. Bij pink = kalf heb ik wel eens verzonnen [als ik dus absoluut wil blijven bij pink = 5e vinger] dat je dan zou kunnen denken aan iets als: pink/kalf is een koebeest van 5 kwartalen oud. Het nederlands heeft trouwens nogal wat woorden met initiele p- waarvan de etymologie duister is. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Bil Hawkins Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] It was very curious to see "mojones" [wet ones] as a synonym for "turds"...I teach blind children how to use a white cane and mostly in Spanish, as living in Southern Arizona, many of my students are from Mexico and speak little or no English. I was writing "mojon/es" as "landmark" as it is listed in old dictionaries as such. I was severely chastized as that not being a suitable word to use on an educational plan. One of the old stories about that word is that when the Spanish Fleet in the late 1500's wrecked off the coast of Ireland, the survivors [the forebears of the BlackIrish] intermarried with the Gaelic catholic folk on the West coast. The boundary markers [cairns] also looked like turds to the Spanish and were called that by them. But remember that the Gaelic 'Pog ma thon" [pronouned mojon] became related to backside, or ass, or its product by metonomy. When Spanish filtered back to Spain a generation or two later with the word, it slipped into the language. I am sure "wet ones" is the more correct and authentic etiology but I've always liked the "pog ma thon" story. They say here the only difference between the Irish and the Mexican people are the booze: tequila vs whiskey...the religion is the same, the colours of the flag are the same...both have an antipathy to the English... Funny story. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:09:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:09:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge: There are consequences to living in a country that is next door to one that persists in using units of measurement that were designed in the dark ages. When I stayed at the Coast Inn of the North in Prince George, British Columbia, there was a parking lot to the rear with a rather low overhang. There was a sensibly sized sign giving the clearance in meters and a much larger sign giving the clearance in feet and inches. The latter obviously for the benefit of numbskull Americans who could not cope with the metric system. It is peculiar in this day and age to listen to news broadcasters giving the water flow of rivers in terms of acre-feet. Even stranger to have the size of things compared to football fields. Now here is something that may resonate with the American public in a way that the metric system apparently cannot. I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football field to replace the metric system. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 20:13:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:13:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Folklore > .....[deleted] > As far as I know, the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > region, like Scandinavia > and much of the Frisian regions do not have Celtic > strata (their > pre-Germanic ethnicities being unknown), nor were > they ever integrated into > the Pax Romana (the Roman legions having been sent > packing by the Germanic > tribes that inhabited the then densely wooded parts > of Europe). It would be > interesting to look at major folkloristic > differences in these two regions. ... [deleted] ----------------- A personal note: It is my deepest conviction that Celtic and Germanic religion / rituals / folklore are pretty much the same. Not only in depth structure, but also surprisingly much in 'the-year-round-traditions'. We must not be confused by eg. the differences in names and stories of the catalogue of Celtic heroes and gods, compared with the Germanic 'religious' catalogue. In other words: I'm convinced that the Indo-European religious archetypes are shining through in both societies. [small note besides: The town of Lyon in France got its name from the Celtic god Lugden. The town of Leiden in The Netherlands got its name from the same Lugden: Lugden Batavorum]. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Haai Elsie, Jy wonder of my bewering dat die Afrikaanse woord _nikker_ 'duiwel' beteken, korrek is. Ek het vir bevestiging in die Handwoordeboek van die Afrikaanse Taal (HAT) gesoek vir die woord en daar staan: "nikker - bose gees. Mv. 'nikkers'." Dus die betekenis is sowat dieselfde. Maar die woord _Niek_ vir 'duiwel' is darem ook interessant. Groetnis, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 14 23:13:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 15:13:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Hi, Can we please have that translated into soccerfield sizes?? Just to make it understandable for us Europeans? Wim. (wkv at home.nl wim verdoold zwolle netherlands) From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge: There are consequences to living in a country that is next door to one that persists in using units of measurement that were designed in the dark ages. When I stayed at the Coast Inn of the North in Prince George, British Columbia, there was a parking lot to the rear with a rather low overhang. There was a sensibly sized sign giving the clearance in meters and a much larger sign giving the clearance in feet and inches. The latter obviously for the benefit of numbskull Americans who could not cope with the metric system. It is peculiar in this day and age to listen to news broadcasters giving the water flow of rivers in terms of acre-feet. Even stranger to have the size of things compared to football fields. Now here is something that may resonate with the American public in a way that the metric system apparently cannot. I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football field to replace the metric system. Tom Byro ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Tom Byro wrote: > I propose a whole new system of measurement based on the football > field to replace the metric system. Actually, I have always had my own little system to visualize - and explain to my children - multiples or fractions of a hundred grams, since 100g is the standard size for a German or Swiss chocolate bar (including Toblerone, Lindt and Ritter Sport, all of which are also available in the USA). Fifty grams is an abstract quantity for a child, but "half a chocolate bar" is something they are very familiar with. Speaking of vittles: from my years in the States, I am very familiar with recipes that use the units "teaspoon" and "tablespoon". I have seen them used in British recipes as well. But, the other day, I had to translate a British muffin recipe into German where the units were given as "teaspoons" and "dessert spoons", and that confused me no end. First of all, in Germany, a dessert spoon is the same as a teaspoon. Also, the recipe called for two dessert spoons each of sugar and honey, which seemed very little for 300 grams of flour. At the same time, it called for two dessert spoons of baking soda, in addition to the baking powder already used, which would have been way too much if it had been tablespoons. Also, salt and spices were measured in teaspoons. Unfortunately, I had no time to do some test baking, so I told the customer that I refused all responsibility for the outcome. Is there anyone who can clear up this confusion for me? How big a spoon does it take to eat Spotted Dick?? Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 17:29:35 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 09:29:35 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Wim Verdoold vroeg zich af: > Can we please have that translated into soccerfield sizes?? Just to > make it understandable for us Europeans? Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards bij 100 yards. Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen introduceert dus geen nieuwe eenheden ... Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is daarom on- geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen geldt: lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een voetbalveld zo'n 70% groter is dan een football field. Gustaaf ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Wim, Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are just too imprecise with the size of your soccer fields.... :) Stan > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > Hi, > > Can we please have that translated into soccerfield > sizes?? Just to > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > Wim. ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking on a little higher level? Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Hi, Ross, and welcome! No real anti-American stuff here, Ross, just poking, and Americans aren't the only victims. (Besides, they are in the majority on the list.) Serious stereotyping, haranguing and the like isn't permitted. "Higher level"? Whatever you mean, why not give it a shot and see if we're up to it? Cheers! Reinhard/Ron (Seattle, Washington, USA) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 08:31:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:31:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 08:35:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:35:21 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: Sorry - this is the full version of the previous. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung. Robert [Lantz] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 09:20:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 01:20:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Message-ID: Sorry, folks, the mail system is playing tricks on me today ... RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Ron, pleased to make the aquaintance, I am sure. The "higher level" that I was speaking of was one of taking into consideration the nature of people. This is very similar to the way languages change over the years, making it a "living" language. First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took measures that tried to force this. But the citizenry will speak the language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not reflect the will of the many. Maybe someday. When pigs fly. (grin) Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] Okay, I know we are beating this to death, but here is the word on American (and Canadian) football fields, from http://www.americanfootballbettinglines.com/rules_differences.htm#FIELD "In the NFL (pro) and NCAA (University), the field is a total of 120 yards long--100 yards of playing field with two end zones, one at either end of the field, each end zone being 10 yards long. The field is 53 1/3 yards wide. NFL goal posts are 18 1/2 feet wide, with the crossbar at 10 feet, while the NCAA widened their goals to 23'4''. Also, the NCAA uses two supports for goal posts, while the NFL has only one. In the CFL (Canadian pro), the field is a total of 150 yards by 65 yards, having two 20-yard end zones, for 110 yards of playing field. " Stan > From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] >> Een Amerikaans football field is precies 50 yards > bij 100 yards. > Zo'n veld als oppervlakteeenheid te nemen > introduceert dus geen > nieuwe eenheden ... > > Een voetbalveld heeft geen vaste afmetingen en is > daarom on- > geschikt als oppervlaktemaat. Voor de afmetingen > geldt: > > lengte tussen de 100 en 130 yards > breedte tussen de 50 en 100 yards > > verder mag het veld niet vierkant zijn. > > Voor officiele velden is de vrijheid wat geringer: > > lengte tussen de 110 en 120 yards > breedte tussen de 70 en 80 yards > > Nemen we de gemiddelden geldt dus dat een > voetbalveld zo'n > 70% groter is dan een football field. > > Gustaaf > > ---------- > > From: Stan Levinson > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] > > Wim, > Sorry, that is not possible because you folk are > just > too imprecise with the size of your soccer > fields.... > :) > Stan > > From: Wim > > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > > > Hi, > > > > Can we please have that translated into > soccerfield > > sizes?? Just to > > make it understandable for us Europeans? > > > > Wim. ---------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place anyway. If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. Traditional measures were not "designed" during "Dark Ages" (a concept whose range has been much reduced, first by the Romantic movement and then by serious historical scholarship), they arose from practical experience in different fields of endeavor and their continued usefulness was justification enough for their persistence. Drywall screws are only a few decades old and are measured in inches, rather than in pennies, the standard for nails. This difference has not prevented a single house from being built. Making either or both metric will not yield any appreciable improvement in house construction. Those who aren't carpenters need not be bothered by the "irrationality" of drywall screws in inches as against 3d, 4d, 6d, 8d, etc., nails. As for Canada, don't ever ask for 10 penny nails in Markdale, Ontario. They have forgotten a perfectly good measuring system there, although oddly enough it was still in use in West London (UK) last time I was there in 1990. On the job, you don't actually need to "know" the length of an 8d nail in inches or metric whatevers; you already know from experience whether it will hold what you're nailing or whether it will split the board. Noncarpenters don't need to know this and no one calls for making them adopt the penny-nail system. Scientists find the metric system useful - and good for them. Carpenters lay out your walls in 2x4s on 16 or 24 inch centers and knock them together with 12d or 16d nails. (The "d" = denarius, Latin for penny, an "irrational" survival that does no harm.) The "2x4s" are actually 1 1/2" by 3 1/2." There is no harm in the discrepancy between nominal and real dimension. The drywall hangers hang sheetrock on the 2x4s with 1" screws and go away. The painters put paint on the sheetrock. Still no harm done, and it is probably a matter of indifference whether they do so from gallon cans or litre cans, although the painters may care. The craft of carpentry (for one) does not need metric reform. If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there is no need to discuss that disaster here. The IQ of Americans does not enter into it. There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the world speak the same language or profess the same religion. Cheers, Joe Stromberg ----------- From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (05) [D/E] .> From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > > I really like this site, but why the antipathy towards Americans? We use > both systems, but prefer the older system, because it is easier to relate to > inches, feet, and yards than to centimeters and such. We learn both systems > in school and then use the one that we prefer for common everyday purposes. > As you may remember from your school days (or maybe you didn't learn this) > the inch is approximately equal to the average first index finger joint, the > foot is about the same size as the average man's foot, etc. This is easy to > relate to in common things, although we can just as easily convert ourselves > to the metric system. A kind of "freedom of choice" to coin a vulgarly used > phrase. I would love to post to this list, but are you guys up to speaking > on a little higher level? > Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA rossmay at bellsouth.net Dear Lowlanders, Having been in the vocational training sytem in British Columbia during the period when metric measurements were supposed to come into being in Canada, as legislated by the government of Canada, I was much involved in the proposed changeover from conventional British measure to Metric measure. Since I had been rather well-introduced to metric measurements during my school years in the late 1920's and early 1930's, I felt no particular difficulties other than a suspicion that Canada was probably not ready nor in favour of conversion to metric measurements. I suspected that conversion to metric measurement in Canada would not fly. Subesequent events have shown that it didn't! Oh sure, we changed our highway speed limits to kilometres-per-hour rather than miles-per-hour, but our grocery stores continue carefully to price food at so-much-per pound as well as so-much-per-kilogram. A sheet of plywood is nowhere to be found in dimensions other than 48 by 96 inches. Of course, special dimensions can be obtained by special order -- at special prices. Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? Cheers! Reuben ---------- From: rlantz <2x47j3 at shentel.net> Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (04) [E] Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung. Robert [Lantz] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 21:45:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:45:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (02) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Hi all! The similarities between Celtic and Germanic traditions and myths can stem from as many as four sources: 1. Celtic substrates in some areas 2. Common Indo-European origin eg the French river Indre - perhaps the same as the Hindu God Indra? Slavic ogni "fire" which they worshipped Sanskrit Hindu God Agni English ignite etc. 3. Earlier common origin - so called "universals" somewhat contentious 4. Borrowing from a common outside source - e.g. Middle Eastern material brought back by Crusaders a modern example is borrowing of words for new technologies or agreed coining from classical Greek roots (although German tries hard to coin based on German roots) certain words like "coffee" spread world wide with the new substance - while the word was localised it still seemed to be based on the Arabic root Gahwa/Qahwa (real Arabs - Bedouins - voice the initial consonant). Mind you Chai is tea in English (although chah is an ultra Brit rendering and tay is Anglo Irish. I can only think of one language - Polish - which doesn't use the Chinese root but calls tea "Herbata". The connection of reindeer with Christmas is another modern case of common borrowing from an outside source - nothing to do with substrates (or even Christianity for that matter) Similarity does not always mean a substrate! Cheers George ---------- From: RBlaustein at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] Regarding the widespread distribution of St. Nicholas? rough, frightening companions, Dr. Manfred Becker-Huberti provides a extensive though incomplete list of their names and locations:: <> (Source, "Nikolaus- Begleiter" copyrighted web page article by Dr. Manfred Becker-Huberti, K?ln http://www.nikolaus-von-myra.de/brauchtum/nikolausbegleiter.html) Here is my content analysis of Dr, Becker-Huberti?s list. Though there are numerous gaps here, nonetheless some interesting patterns emerge: Etymology and Distribution of Names of St. Nicholas? Harsh Companions Asche - =1 "ashes" + Klas (diminutive of Nicholas) (Westfalen, Norddeutschland) Batten = 1 "beating" +"manner "men" Bartl=2 " little beard"and/or "diminutive of Bartholemew" (K?rnten, Steiermark), Belzebub 1 "Biblical Hebrew baal zebub "Lord of The Flies" or German "Furry Lout Pelze+bub ? Biggesel 1 ? -Bock 1 "he-goat" cognate of Eng. "buck" + Pelze- (fur, furry" (Eifel und Mosel), B?ser "bad, evil" -Bercht 1 "devil" -Brecht 1 "devil" -Bub 2 "lout, ruffian" Buwe 1 "louts, ruffians," or Buhe "bogeymen"? Bull- =1 "bull" +kater "tom cat" Buller =1 ? Bur 1 = "rough guy, bursche? Buse 1 "bad, evil" Buze 1 "bad, evil" Butz 1 "bogeyman" butzmann (Schwaben), Dollochs 1 "Stabber?" D?sseli 1 "Dopey, Stupid" (Schweiz), D?vel 1 "Devil" Einspeiber, 1 ? Erbsbar 1 "Hereditary Bear" or "Pea Bear"? (Gurktal, ?sterreich) Hans = 2 "German nickname for Old Nick" + Muff "Stink" and Trapp, family name ; of 16th century Palatine military officer who terrorized peasants, becoming a bogeyman (Kinderschreck) and harsh companion of St. Nicholas". (Pfalz), Heiliger 1 "holy" + Mann "man" Gangerln 1 ? Kasperchen 1 "little Casper" :+ Schwartz- :"black" Kehraus 1 ? Klas =6 diminutive of Nicholas Klaubauf 1 ? (Bayern), Klaus=3 diminutive of Nicholas Klause 1 diminutive of Nicholas Klosen 1 ? diminutive of Nicholas Klausenpicker 1 ? Klomb 1 ? + Sack "sack" Knatsch 1? + Zink- Krampus 1 ? (?sterreich), Leutfresser 1 "Cannibal ? People-Eater" (Ostalpen) -m?nneken 1 "little man " +Klaus Muff 2 "Stink" (muffig"?) Nikolo 1 diminutive of Nicholas -nickel 1 "little devil, diminutive of Nicholas, Nick" + Pelz- (Pfalz und Saar) Partl 1 "little beard" (K?rnten, Steiermark), Pelz, = 3 "fur, furry" (Eifel und Mosel, Baden, Pfalz und Saar), Pelzebub 1 (Baden), 1 "Biblical Hebrew baal zebub "Lord of The Flies" or German "Furry Lout" Pelze+bub ? Perchten 1 "devils" + Schlacht- (fighting, beating) Pere Fouettard 1 "Father Beater" (France) -Precht 1 "devil" + Ru- raue "raw, harsh" (found in all German-speaking lands). Pulter 1 "noisy, rowdy" polter" + -Klas (Diethmarschen) Rollebuwe 1 "Rolling Knavea" rolle+bube" or Roving Bogeymen "Relle-Buhe? Ru - 1 "raw, harsh raue"+ Klas (Mecklenburg) Rumpel 1 "rumbling") + Klas (Allg?u) Rup 1 "grumpy" + sack "sack, bag" (Mecklenburg) Ruprecht "raw, harsh"+ "devil" + Knecht (farmhand, servant) (found in all German-speaking lands) - Sack 2 "sack" Rup- "grumpy " and klomb ? Schiacht- 1 "beating, fighting" +perchten :"devils" (Salzburger Land), Schmutzli, 1 "flithy, dirty" (Schweiz), Schwartz 1 :"black" + Kasperin "Little Black Casper" Semper 1 ? Spitzbartel "short beard - "goatee" Zink 2 "saint sankt ?" + Muff stink? and Knatsch ? (Niederrhein) Zwarte Piet, 1 "Black +Pete"( Swarte Piet, Pietermann) (Niederlande) What do these characters share in common? A detailed composite portrait of St. Nicholas? rough, demonic companions emerges from listing their most common names and characteristics in order of frequency: Major Attributes of St. Nicholas? Harsh Companions Diminutive of Nicholas 12 (nickel 1 Pfalz und Saar) Devil 7 Little 6 Bad, Evil 3 Black 3 Fur, Furry 3 (Eifel und Mosel, Baden, Pfalz und Saar), Raw., Harsh 3 Short Beard, Little Beard, Goatee 3 (diminutive of Bartholomew) Ashes, Dirty 2 Beating 2 Bogeyman 2 Hans 2 (German nickname for Old Nick) Sack 2 Stinky 2 As Ron has already noted, names for these characters beginning with Pelz/Belz (fur, furry) are concentrated in the Rhine Valley of southwestern Germany. Folklorist Alfred L. Shoemakers states in Christmas In Pennsylvania: A Folk-Cultural Study (1959; reissued 1999 with foreword and afterword by Don Yoder) that the Pennsylvania German custom of Belsnickling originated in the Rhineland and that it is historically associated with the so-called "Gay Dutch" gem?tlich Reformed and Lutheran churches, who festively celebrated Christmas, unlike the puritanical "Plain Dutch" (Amish, Mennonites). (xiii). Henry Harbaugh (1817-1867), a minister of the Reformed Church and author of Star Of Bethelem: A Christmas Story For Good Children (1862), vividly describes the Pelznickel in early nineteenth rural Pennsylvania German Christmas festivities: O kennscht du den wieschde, den gaschtische Mann? Hu! Darf mer den Kall en Mensch heesse? Ya, ass er en Mensch iss maag glaawe wer kann, Er guckt mir zu viel wie der Beese! "Seh yuscht mol sei Aage, sei Naas---alle Welt! Er dutt's Maul uff un zu wie die Scheere; En Schwans wie'n Ochs, ys, des hot er, gelt? Un en haaricher Bels wie die Baere. "Kummt der in dei Haus, dann gebt's Laerme genunk, Er sucht die nixnutziche Kinder! Un finnt er eens, geht er uff eemol zum Punkt, Un dengelt gaar bummrisch die Sinder. "Er schtellt sich do hie mit der farchbaare Ruud, Un brummelt sei drohende Reede; Do waare die Kinner uff eemol arrig gut Un fange recht hefdich aa beede! "Waar eens, wie's manchmol der Fall iss, recht knitz; Wollt die Fitz der Mudder verschpettle; Ich wett, es lacht net vor der Belsnickelfitz--- Es dutt um gut Wedder gschwinnt bettle. "Nau schiddelt der Belsnickel grausam sei Sack, Raus falle die Kuche un Keschde; Wer gut iss, kann lese; wer schlecht iss, dann wack! Des schmiert er mit Fitzeel zum Beschde. "Vum Belsnickel hawwich nau ebbe gelannt, Des waer ich aa nie net vergesse: Noochdem dass mer seeht, watt eem aa in die Aernt Die Frucht vum seim Waerk ausgemesse!" "Oh, do you know that ugly, that nasty man? Wow! Can you call that fellow a human being? Yes, that he is a human, may be believed by whomever wants to, He looks to me too much like the devil! "Just look at his eyes, his nose---wow! He opens and closes his mouth like shears; A tail like an ox, yes, that he has, right? And a hairy pelt like the bears. "If he comes into your house, there'll be noise enough, He seeks out the bad children! And if he finds one, he get right to the point, And beats, very badly, the sinners. "He stands there with that terrible whip, And grumbles his threatening speech; The children suddenly become very good And begin to pray mightily! "If one of them, as is sometimes the case, was right mischievous; Wanted to mock his mother's whip; I bet he won't laugh at Belsnickel's whip--- He quickly begs for good weather. "Now Belsnickel shakes his bag terribly, Out fall the cakes and chestnuts; Whoever is good can pick them up; whoever is bad, then whack! He flogs him thoroughly." From the Belsnickel I have now learned something, I will never forget it: After you sow, then in the harvest The fruit of your work is meted out! (Source: The Pennsylvania German Society --- Pennsylvania German Dialect http://www.pgs.org/dialect/12_16_99.asp) (Excerpted from Professor. Earl C. Haag's Pennsylvania German Column, Es Neinuhr Schtick, which appears weekly in several Schuylkill County community newspapers, The Call, The Press-Herald and the West Schuylkill Herald.. Recently retired, Professor Haag served as Associate Professor of German and English Composition at the Pennsylvania State University, Schuylkill Campus. Author of A Pennsylvania German Reader and Grammar (1982), he edited A Pennsylvania German Anthology (1988), and compiled the recently-published One Hundred Years: An Index of Publications of The Pennsylvania German Society.) Happy holidays, everyone! All the best, Richard Blaustein ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Folklore Thanks for your interesting contributions (above), George and Richard. I suppose that folk etymology as genesis or reinforcement of some folkloristic features is a possibility, where foreign words or names came to be reanalyzed on the basis of native names and words; e.g., Hebrew _be`el z(e)H?bh_ ("fly master", "lord of the flies" = taboo replacement for _sheyt?n_ 'Satan') > Greek _beelzeboub_ > German _Belzebub_ ['bEltz at bu(:)p], perhaps misinterpreted to contain German _Pelz_ [pElts] (also _Belz_ in some dialects, due to southern /b/ and /p/ variation) 'fur', '(animal's) coat' and _Bub_ [bu(:)p] ~ _Bube_ ['bu:b@] '(naughty) boy', 'lout' (etymologically linked with English _babe_ and _baby_). Something like this could apply also in the case of _Nikolaos_ and *_nik(l)_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.14 (03) [A/E] Dag s aan al die Laelanders On Sat, 14 Dec 2002 12:13:22 -0800 Marcel Bas wrote: > > > From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com > Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.13 (01) [A/E] > > Haai Elsie, > > Jy wonder of my bewering dat die Afrikaanse woord > _nikker_ 'duiwel' > beteken, korrek is. Ek het vir bevestiging in die > Handwoordeboek van die > Afrikaanse Taal (HAT) gesoek vir die woord en daar staan: > "nikker - bose > gees. Mv. 'nikkers'." Dus die betekenis is sowat > dieselfde. > Maar die woord _Niek_ vir 'duiwel' is darem ook > interessant. > > Groetnis, Marcel. > > This made me go to various dictionaries - The Readers Digest Afrikaans/English dictionary gives - nikker - a nix, water-elf, fiend. I must admit I had never heard of the word -miskien is dit 'n boekwoord of 'n folklore woord wat allenlik in akademiese geskrifte voorkom. Nix is given back as - 'n manlike water-gees en "nixie" of "nixy" as 'n vroulike watergees of nikse. Dit wil voorkom dat die "nik" in verskeie vorms opkom en as bose geeste deel van die Duiwel se vogelinge beskou word of selfs die Duiwel kan beteken. John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 15 21:55:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 13:55:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] At 12:31 AM 12/16/02 -0800, Ross May wrote: > First, no people are going to, by government edict, change their >system of measurement. I am sure that the Norman Dukes would have preferred >that the commoners of Britain speak Norman French, and several times took >measures that tried to force this. Actually, the result was a creole, unintelligible to speakers of either source language within a few generations. > But the citizenry will speak the >language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to >use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. If it was up to the people of Canada, there never would have been a change here, either. It's another case of the government choosing the minority position for the good of the majority. Most people here now are either in favour of the "new" system, or are at least accepting of it. It's also another case of the benefits of the parliamentary system of government, which gives the governing party far more power than in the American system, so things like the metric system and universal single payer health care systems can be mandated despite opposition from various interest groups which benefit from the status quo. >From: Joe Stromberg >Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.14 (02) [E] > >So far no one has given us anything like a good reason for American adoption >of the metric system. With one of the largest internal markets in the world, >we don't need it. Firms involved in foreign trade internalize whatever costs >are involved in conversion, and I don't see why they should externalize >their costs onto the rest of us. A lot of foreign trade seems to take place >anyway. Actually, we're happy you don't adopt it, because it gives the rest of us a competitive edge in world markets. Ever check your trade deficit figures recently? >If Canadians put up signs in both systems, they are 1) being polite (this is >quite possible), 2) making a rational business decision, given that they >have American customers, or 3) expressing suppressed resentment at having been >forced to adopt a system of measurement whose only real recommendation, for >everyday use, lies in its relationship to the French Revolution, but there >is no need to discuss that disaster here. One very, very rarely sees both systems. Canada decided to leave most building materials in Imperial measure, since we ship a lot of plywood and other building materials to the States and less overseas. Plus there's the issue of retrofit, since all existing buildings were put up before metric. However, bricks and blocks and carpet and a few other things are all metric now. >There is quite enough levelling and legislated uniformity in the world as it >is. Why on earth should we want any more? If a few people want the metric >system, where do they get the right to impose it on those who don't? This is like the seatbelt argument. Unfortunately those who think that no one should be forced to wear a seatbelt are never in favour of those who don't wear them paying solely for all the extra medical and social costs caused by those who don't. As long as I have to bear part of the cost of people not wearing seatbelts, or smoking, for example, I think I should have a certain right to control this behavior. >American adoption of the metric system is perhaps the least imperative >reform of which I can think. One might as well demand that everyone in the >world >speak the same language or profess the same religion. Really? You can't be serious. Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 02:34:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 18:34:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: mesure Dear Lowlanders! Joe Stromberg asks if there is any reason why the US should adopt Metric. I can think of one reaon.. When the US citizens travels to other countries on business or pleasure ,they would better understand the values of goods and distances between cities or the heights of mountains..Of course Joe is right that Metric will never happen in the US unless it is legislated . In Canada metrication stalled when a far right government was elected,who had promised to kill it,but could or would not ...It's use is increasing slowly and will continue more quickly once the over 60 people are gone ... Enjoy the season....Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: bowman Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] At 12:31 AM 12/16/2002 -0800, Joe Stromberg wrote: >If we ever do need the metric system, it will be adopted gradually through >normal market decisions. No politician will have to lift a finger. There wasn't much of a market decision about the 750 ml 'fifth' of whisky. The BATF said, "Thou shalt" and the liquor and wine bottlers obeyed. [Robert Bowman] ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Ross May wrote: > ... But the citizenry will speak the > language that they choose to, just as the people of America have chosen to > use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Metric usage has been > pushed in the schools for many years, and it simply will not replace the > common one that we use. Not unless the people are willing. It is a > language of sorts, this metric system. It is sensible, being based on the > divisibility of tens, and it is exponentially sound. But, this does not > reflect the will of the many. Ross, I very much disagree. How can this archaic measuring system reflect "the will of many", since it is being FORCED on the American people by their own government? They can "push it" (?!) in schools all they want (which they actually don't!) as long as road signs and speedometers are still in miles, newscasters predict temperatures in Fahrenheit, gasoline is sold by the gallon, and, and, and... What CHANCE does an American have to actually use the metric system? I am European and lived in the USA for eight years; it is not like I ever had a choice which system I wanted to use. Using the metric system is simply not allowed as an option in day-to-day life. My children were even punished for trying to use metric units in school and made to mend their evil, un-American ways. You make it sound like the American people are exercising some kind of "freedom" by putting up with this herd of dinosaurs. This could not be farther from the truth. Unless, maybe, it is considered "patriotic" to stubbornly adhere to a system that requires you to measure 1/64 of an inch? I have a sinking feeling that this is exactly the case - in a country which has been built by humans from many nations, maybe it gives Americans an extra feeling of national identity (and a slight feeling of triumph over all those hapless immigrants who have to switch from a world-wide system that makes perfect sense to this relic of WASP superiority). By the way, an average man's foot is ten inches long at most - much shorter than twelve inches, or "one foot" (but then, we know about that male tendency to exaggerate...). And what about women's feet? They make up half the population. Respectfully, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:30:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:30:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ian James Parsley Subject: Measure Words Folk, May I be bold enough to suggest we are straying a little from the subject here?! (I know it has already been done in German, but presumably no one noticed!) I think there *is* a related issue here, namely that what is ostensibly merely a methodology for measuring things can become a cultural symbol, as suggested most recently by Gabriele. I think in both the UK and the US this is the case - the Customary Measures are used to illustrate difference and as a symbol of national identity in countries that are 'melting pots', and in the former case whose population feels its identity is 'under threat' from those 'nasty Europeans' (evidenced by the constant repetition of the idea the system is being forced on them 'by Brussels', where in fact the UK Government adopted it in 1965). To bring this back to the point, can Lowlanders think of any parallels used by the various speech communities on this list? Are there any cases of measuring systems (of time, length, weight or particularly currency) that are/were used as a cultural marker? Compliments of the Season, ===== ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Wasp Superiority". For shame, Pandora. Please close your box. First, I approve of the SAE system that we currently have. I am very comfortable with it. But "WASP" ! Do I detect a mite of resentment here? Let us see, "White" (must mean Caucasian), "Anglo-Saxon" (But, dear I am not Anglo-Saxon, I am of Celtic-Viking descent, with a little Croatian inserted. "Protestant", hmmmm........ I guess am at that, but I do think she protests too much! And your little foot, well, we could hav a "bitty-foot" of only eight inches (or centimeters of you wish). And, by the way, Gabby, I am eighth-generation American, with ancestors who fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, WWI, and WWII, Korea, and I myself fought in Viet-Nam, all for the right to use what we choose. Long-live the REAL Freedom of Choice! Greetings from the New World. ---------- From: bowman Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] At 06:34 PM 12/15/2002 -0800, Gabriele Kahn wrote: >By the way, an average man's foot is ten inches long at most - much shorter >than twelve inches, or "one foot" (but then, we know about that male >tendency to exaggerate...). Not being average, my foot is one foot long. Oddly enough, the 12 inch foot fits nicely into a size 12 shoe. Not a 45 or 46, whatever that may derive from. I have nothing against metrification (though I wish my vehicles were one system or the other, not a blend). However, there are many physical things which are based on English units. As someone pointed out, the building trades work in inches and feet. If a carpenter starts putting in joists on something other than 18" or 24" centers, suddenly none of the premanufactured parts will fit. So, do we call it 45.72 cm centers or some other odd measurement? Weights, speeds, and distances are relatively easy to change. It would take a generation before a '1/4 kilo' steak really meant much, but it could be done. Likewise, there isn't a big difference if I go down the road at 100 kph or 65 mph. Many things have already been metrified; its just that no one noticed. ----------- From: UB82DN at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] Liewe Laaglanders, I only got into this particular discussion because I got tired of hearing that ordinary Americans are backward for preferring a measurement system which works well enough for most purposes. Ed Alexander answers part of my post with To save time, I answer that I am quite serious. If I got into other points he has raised, I would have to mention Jewkes, Mises, Hayek, roads to serfdom.... Unless the moderators want a full-scale political debate, this might be a good place to stop. Much better to get back to the fate of the two Indo-European /e:/s in Gothic, as opposed to West Germanic. Moderately, Joe Stromberg, Auburn, Alabama ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.13 (04) [E/Spanish] Jorge As to bolts it is even more complicated. Wrenches for Whitworth bolts are based on the stem diameter is fractional inches. The wrench for a 5/16 inch whitworth or the more fine BSF (British Standard Fine) reads 5/16" but measures between the jaws 9/16" (if you are lucky a 13 mm spanner would just fits). But if you are faced with a UNF, as used in car engines the world over, 5/16" needs a 1/2" spanner. (Hard experience of maintaining a 1961 Rover 100 for over 30 years, which uses BSF for chassis and body work, but UNF for the engine (or motor if you like)). Pieter Meester ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure words Hey Tom, I'm not a numbskulled American! I might be ignorant of a lot of things, but I also don't make direct attacks at other nationalities on this list. Pas op, wat je zegt! Vrede! Vrede! Vrede! I personally like the metric system. Het was drie grad s'morgens. And I have driven in Canada on occassions and had no problem with kilometers. Gabrielle, my foot is about 1 foot and I am about 6 foot tall, if that's average? (For Tom: I'm about 1.87 m - dig, dig, dig!) Kevin Browne ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.15 (03) [E] > Ross May wrote: > >> ... But the citizenry will speak the >> language that they choose to, just as the people of America have >> chosen to >> use the SAE measurements instead of the metric. Dear Ross, I do not agree with that statement. I live next to the French border. All the Flemish people in France were obliged to speak French and they did,'t want to.The state punished everyone that spoke Flemish. But after more than 300 years, the French state won. Now there are just a few thousand left that still can speak Flemish. Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words Folks, Obviously this is a volatile subject to some, lending itself to triggering expressions of resentment and accusations that may be more deeply rooted. All the more reason to make an effort to stay on the straight and narrow, to remember that this is an international forum consisting of individuals rather than of ethnic or national delegates or representatives, to refrain from name-calling (real or implied), to remember that one person's "stubbornness" and "arrogance" are the other person's "choice" and "prerogative", to remember that it will eventually all come out in the wash, and to file this one away under "V", as in "volatile" and _vive la diff?rence_. Peace! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:33:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:33:19 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: etymology A couple of weeks ago Steve Brown asked why 'pinguin' was called 'Pikkewijne' in Afrikaans. Now in Dutch 17th century records I found written: pingewijn. Well, It's obvious. The dutch emigrants to South-Africa took also this word with them, and in Afrikaans they changed it, just as they did with [nearly] all dutch words, to make them more pronounceable. At your service. Vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:35:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:35:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language loyalty" 2002.12.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: Low German use Hallo to all, We all know that the Low German language is spoken in many foreign countries. What do think: How many people of your country can understand Low German? How many people of your country can read Low German? How many people of your country speak Low German? You can estimate it or if you know it more presisely tell it me by adding where you have the information from. Thanks for your help! Gu?tgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! Klaus-Werner Kahl www.plattdeutsch.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 19:39:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:39:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable in some standard varieties (e.g., in Afrikaans in the Lowlands group). In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German), double negation may occur with _nich_ ([nIC]) ~ _ni_ ([nI]) ~_neet_ ([nE.It]) ~ _naait_ ([na.It]) ?not? if a phrase contains a negative pronoun or adverb, and this form of double negation is mandatory if negation is stressed; e.g., (1) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody talks with Elisabeth.? (2) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt nich mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks not with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody does talk with Elisabeth.? (3) Mit Lies? wardt nie (nich) snackt. (?With Elizabeth is never (not) talked.? [impersonal passive]) ?One doesn?t talk with Elizabeth.? (4) Mit Lies? wardt nie nich snackt. (?With Elizabeth is never not talked.? [impersonal passive])) ?One doesn?t ever talk with Elizabeth.? I suppose those of you who know Afrikaans or certain non-standard varieties of other Lowlands languages are familiar with this sort of structure and understand that using a second negative does not cancel/negate the other negative. (I was tempted to provide Afrikaans equivalents but decided to let others do so if they wish.) In Sorbian (~ Lusatian ~ "Wendish", a group of West Slavonic varieties now unique to Germany), including the two standard varieties, double negation and even triple negation is mandatory and does not lead to cancellation or double-cancellation; e.g., Standard Upper Sorbian: (5) Nicht? z Hil?u nihdy njer??i. (?Nobody (~ no one) with Elizabeth never not-talks.?) (?Nobody doesn?t never not talk with Elizabeth.? = ungrammatical) (?Nobody never talks with Elizabeth.? = marginally substandard) ?Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.? In Lowlands Saxon this can be grammatical, albeit perhaps marginally so to some listeners: (6) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt nie nich mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks never not with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.? [?] To me it ?feels? emphatically negative (?nobody never ever ...?). To some listeners there may be emphatic cancellation here, though I am not sure: ?There isn?t anybody that never talks with Elizabeth.? = ?Everybody talks (~ does talk) with Elizabeth.? Probably constructions 1-4 above would be clearer, hence preferable. What do others think? How does this sort of thing play out in other Lowlands varieties? Thanks in advance. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 21:46:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:46:29 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] First of all, I'll have you all know that my husband's shoe size is an average 42 - that's a men's 11 or 12 in America. That's another one I never understood, by the way: different shoe sizes for men and women?! And his foot is exactly 25 centimeters long - ten inches, that is (I just measured - he was somewhat puzzled). Maybe it's just that men like to exaggerate the size of their feet - like the size of the fish they catch. ;-) Ross wrote: > And, by the way, Gabby, I am eighth-generation American, with > ancestors who fought in the American Revolution, War of 1812, Civil War, > WWI, and WWII, Korea, and I myself fought in Viet-Nam, all for the right to > use what we choose. Long-live the REAL Freedom of Choice! Yes, Ross, that exactly was my point - for those wars also represent a big part of the American "national identity", just like Thanksgiving, apple pie and the measuring system (and also counting generations, which Europeans seldom do since it would be rather pointless). It all comes as one big, all-included package. There seem to be no rational reasons for such an ecclectic mix of various non-decimal measuring systems. But I can fully understand how one would strive to keep it because it also means part of one's personal identity - something that has always been there, and that you've used all your life. It's probably comparable to changing over to the Euro - which to most people means a personal loss of sorts, since an integral part of their lives, their familiar national currency, has been taken from them. Fighting in Vietnam does not exactly sound like a choice to me, however, even if they made you believe it was for a good cause. This is a tragedy that happens again and again, all over the world. Never trust a government of any kind that feels the urge to TELL you that it's freedom you're enjoying. As to the REAL freedom of choice: Butterfly ballot!! I'm going to shut up now and stick to that good old Lower Saxon saying (to get this back on track): Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! Gabriele - please never, ever call me Gabby - Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 16 21:52:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 13:52:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] On the subject of double negatives: So Dale Brown is teaching his freshman English class about double negatives. In English, says Professor Brown, two consecutive negatives form a positive, for example when you say "He ain't got no class," you're really saying that he's a classy guy. And Professor Brown was saying that this situation prevails in many languages around the world, that two negatives often make a positive. But then he told his students that the converse was never true. He was absolutely sure that there was no instance in any language in which a double positive becomes a negative. And a skeptical freshman in the back row says, "Yeah, right!" Ron, I haven't been "on board" for several years, so if y'all already know this one, please don't post it. I thought it was just too good to miss. Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Mr Hahn spoke of double negatives. Thereby hangs a tale. In both American and British English, the double negative is considered both ungrammatical, unsymantical, and substandard. Be that so, and I am a teacher of English and speak, read, and write one other language, Farci (Persian). But that was not always so. Albert C. Baugh, in his History of the English Language, says that for a long time in the development of our language, the double negative was common, and usage was permitted. In fact, he states, it was used to make a stronger nagative. So Shakespeare could say, "Thou hast spoken no word all this while - nor understood none neither; I know not, nor I greatly care not; nor this is not my nose neither. First he denied you had in him no right; My father hath no child but I, nor none is like to have; Nor never none shall mistress be of it, save I alone." It is a pity, even though I will stipulate that it is symantically incorrect as well as grammatical, that we have lost so useful an intensive in the name of correctness. The double negative nowadays is considered low-class and uneducated, and is surely confined to the slightly educated. But every now and then, when I am addressing a folk music crowd, I love to fall into the colorful colloquial dialect of my Scotch-Irish ancestors (or Scots-Irish as it is said today), and use an expression such as, " I ain't got no haints in my house!" One thing that a student of language and even a professional should keep in mind is that the prescriptive grammar and syntax of today would not have flown more that two-hundred years ago. Language is a self-repairing animal, and will develop in its own direction, regardless of authorotative convention, and edicts. Surely, the only thing that authority can do to affect a language is to destroy it as exhibited by what has happened to Frisian and Gaelic and many other languages over the earth. By destroy, I mean kill. Gaelic is barely alive, has almost no change, as is Frisian. It can only be preserved in its present state unless its use is encouraged in Scotland and Ireland, as well as the Welsh. I wonder how many Brits still speak their native tongue other that the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Celts. Another subject I would love to talk about is substandard words, namely, "ain't". We know it stood for "something not". Does anyone know which two words are contracted. Is it "aye" and "not", or just what is it ? I know theories, but does anyone have a written example in some sort of literature or poetry? Something with the missing words used separately, or some such. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 00:52:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:52:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (05) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Please don't call me "Gabby" or words to that effect. Therefore I will not. Most of the statements which she made, I disagree with, both in fact and spirit, so I will not pursue that thread since I am to the right of Attilla the Hun and she, to the left of Trotsky. Sobeit. Oh, by the way, I understand Persian (Farsi) but not the language that she put at the bottom of the text. Exactly what did it say and in which language. It looks Germanic. I can read Old English, but only a few words of that text, and that I probably interpret incorrectly. But, getting back to the thread, I will try not to make any more side-trips, unless someone else decides to be a sharpshooter. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Measure words All right then, folks. And now we're going to bury this hatchet, at least *on* the List. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] To Ian Parsley I am vaguely aware of archaic measuring systems retaining some usage in my village in Westphalia but I had little to do with them. For example, I recall land being measured in a unit called, I think, a Morgen, rather than a Hektar. My father had a Zollstock, which measured in units much larger than centimeters. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 00:57:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:57:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Polly Christensen Subject: Double negatives RE: mr. Ross' comments (below). I remember my father and his brother---two old Frisian Sylters---discussing an old childhood friend of theirs who had just died. My uncle said, "Ah, ja, Deshe. We will never see him, no more." Indeed, the double negative sometimes means a lot more. " In both American and British English, the double negative is considered both ungrammatical, unsymantical, and substandard. Be that so, and I am a teacher of English and speak, read, and write one other language, Farci (Persian). But that was not always so. Albert C. Baugh, in his History of the English Language, says that for a long time in the development of our language, the double negative was common, and usage was permitted. In fact, he states, it was used to make a stronger nagative. So Shakespeare could say, "Thou hast spoken no word all this while - nor understood none neither; I know not, nor I greatly care not; nor this is not my nose neither. First he denied you had in him no right; My father hath no child but I, nor none is like to have; Nor never none shall mistress be of it, save I alone." It is a pity, even though I will stipulate that it is symantically incorrect as well as grammatical, that we have lost so useful an intensive in the name of correctness. The double negative nowadays is considered low-class and uneducated, and is surely confined to the slightly educated. But every now and then, when I am addressing a folk music crowd, I love to fall into the colorful colloquial dialect of my Scotch-Irish ancestors (or Scots-Irish as it is said today), and use an expression such as, " I ain't got no haints in my house!" One thing that a student of language and even a professional should keep in mind is that the prescriptive grammar and syntax of today would not have flown more that two-hundred years ago. Language is a self-repairing animal, and will develop in its own direction, regardless of authorotative convention, and edicts. Surely, the only thing that authority can do to affect a language is to destroy it as exhibited by what has happened to Frisian and Gaelic and many other languages over the earth. By destroy, I mean kill. Gaelic is barely alive, has almost no change, as is Frisian. It can only be preserved in its present state unless its use is encouraged in Scotland and Ireland, as well as the Welsh. I wonder how many Brits still speak their native tongue other that the Scottish, Irish, and Welsh Celts." -- Polly Christensen Senior Designer Publications and Creative Services University Communications University of Colorado-Boulder phone: 303.492.8087 fax: 303.492.7828 e-mail: polly.christensen at colorado.edu ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. I am very interested. [Harlan May] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:42:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:42:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (01) [A/E] > > To Ian Parsley > > I am vaguely aware of archaic measuring systems retaining some usage in > my > village in Westphalia but I had little to do with them. For example, I > recall land being measured in a unit called, I think, a Morgen, rather > than > a Hektar. Thanks for the reminder! A great-uncle of mine always spoke about a "morgen" land too. I don't know how many square meters his "morgen" was. Another old unit I recall is "bunder". FWIW, my family (from that side) originates from Drenthe, in the Netherlands. Johan Thole ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.16 (07) [E] Ross wrote: > ...Oh, by the way, I > understand Persian (Farsi) but not the language that she put at the bottom > of the text. Exactly what did it say and in which language. It looks > Germanic. That was indeed Germanic - in fact it was plain old Lower Saxon, quoting a sign that is found in pubs throughout Northern Germany - designed to prevent brawls, I suppose: Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! meaning: Drink till you're drunk and eat till you're fat and just shut up about politics! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: measure words Gabriele wrote: Suup di duhn un freet di dick un hool din Muul van Politik! Oh no Gabriele! Always discuss politics and religion, because then we find out what people are really thinking, instead of just talking about the weather. (Maar ik vind het ook wel leuk over het weer te praten.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:45:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:45:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] Dear All, I can generally subscribe to what Ron has said about double negative (DN henceforth). It seems the Western Germanic dialects show the double negative to be the norm, rather than a "low-status-corruption-something-or-other". I believe the "incrimination" of the DN to go back to renaissance grammarians and their successors, all educated in Latin. It was much taught as a "logical" (even described as such in my school days), almost "mathematical" language. It was held in high esteem and deemed to be superior to the vernaculars. If you base your grammatical ideal on a different language from the one you are describing, interference of this kind can happen. But DN is no more illogical that adjective inflections agreeing with noun inflections, or personal pronouns agreeing with personal verb forms. It`s a case of "doppelt gemoppelt h?lt besser". Additionally DN can take over intensifying functions as pointed out by yourself, Ron. Unfortunately I have erased the posting in which was stated that language can not really be influenced by a form of authority, be it academic or through Government. History has proved this to be wrong. Language can be very much influenced by an elite that will adhere to certain trends, that have been decided upon by those who consider themselves to be "superior" or somehow "grammatically enlightened". Your (whoever`s, sorry, don`t know) very own example from the Norman conquest shows the far reaching linguistic effect the use of Anglo-Norman by the elite had. Your right in that a language shift did not occur, neither was the structure of the language radically changed (change may have been excellerated a bit), but the effect it had on the vocabulary was profound. I also believe that if an elite, Latin educated, imposes its power and sense of being right on an educational programme, language can be changed. DN is just one of these enforced changes. Just look at the way dialect speech in general is being abandoned in many areas of Europe and the world. It goes back to the traditional view that dialect is an inferior way of speaking. If a sense of inadequacy is evoked in the people whose speech the "enlightened grammarian" wishes to correct, and an alternative is offered, this feeling of inadequacy is a powerful motor to spark change, whether in dialect speech in general or certain dialectal features. Oh, here`s one for Gabriele, I heard my cousin say the other day when I was trying to get something political out of him. He said: "Politics is like swapping deck-chairs on the Titanic". Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:48:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:48:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.17 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Theo Well not exactly so, I am afraid. I have never experienced difficulties in pronouncing Dutch after I was 2 years of age, so why should Dutchmen occupying the Cape colonies all of a sudden get difficulties in pronouncing their mother tongue? Perhaps they already had difficulties in pronouncing Dutch before they left the muddy Rhinemouth just because they were often not the upper class, Hollands speaking, people who send them on their tour. Not to forget many of them weren't even Hollanders but all kinds of "easterlings" with their various own dialects. Overigens las ik enige tijd geleden dat Zuid-Afrikaans pas zo sterk van het Nederlands ging afwijken na 1880, laten we zeggen de boerenoorlogen. Is dat ontstaan toen ze richting Transvaal trokken. Een punt van overweging is dat ze de Statenvertaling van 1639 nog steeds toegedaan waren en die is als geen ander document bepalend geweest voor de standaardisering van het Nederlands. Dus zolang ze in de meer geciviliseerde Kaapprovinicie woonden bepaalde dat de taal. Weet iemand hier meer van? Pieter Meester ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.16 (02) [E] Pikkewyn zou onder het kopje 'volksetymologie' kunnen vallen. Een woord dat, mogelijk, afstamde van het Engelse woord 'pin-wing' klonk onzinnig in Nederlandse oren, dus werd een constructie ontwikkeld bestaande uit _pik(ke)_ en _wijn_. Een soortgelijk geval is _alo_ dat veranderde in _aalwyn_. Mogelijk is dit onder invloed van de bekendere woorden _aal_ en _wijn_ ontstaan, of onder invloed van de eigennaam _Halewijn_. Soortgelijk is het woord _leguaan_ dat in het Afrikaans _likkewaan_ is. Een heel aparte vorm is het Afrikaanse bijwoord _opsluit_ dat voortkomt uit het leenwoord _absoluut_. Er zijn nog legio voorbeelden van volksetymologie te noemen, waar ook het Nederlands veel voorbeelden van heeft. Groeten, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:50:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:50:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.17 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: (no subject) Hooi Aelemael, Ik heet Frija. ik ben prester in de Noordse Hedens traditie aen deze Goddin. ' k heb groet stel in het naem van den Goddin die in standdaart Nederlands 'Frija' wurd schrieven, men die in ouwd Noords de naem voor de Goddin, 'Freyja' wil zyn. Hoe maekt 't man in Vlaems? Kan ieman me enige informatie om deze wordt geven? 'k ben Prester in dienst aen de Goddin Frija van de Diessen (Freyja Vanad?s) vil het me viel plezier als ieman wat me voortellen. Dank jullie al viel, in naem van Frija van den Diessen en maeg Zy Gy gezegendt. Gelukig Jultijd als de viel van het jaer kaert om. Heil aen Gy Zonna, Goddin van der zonn! De Groet Moeder, maeg zy wacht over julli alle. Frija ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 15:53:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:53:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (05) [E/LS/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Robert schreef: >>>Mir geht's irgendwie vorbei, was metrisch oder "football fields" mit "lowlands language" zu tun hat. Vielleicht habe ich nur lange Leitung.<<< Jaa, Robert. Mi gaait dat ook so. Annersiids de w??r de bruukt warrn s?nd jaa ook deel vun`e spraak, un waneer dat ene systeem dat annere verdr?ngen daait, den s?n de w??r daar v??r ook weg. Dat is so as mid usen nijen geld. Seker k??nt wi ook to een Euro, Mark, Pund, Schilling of s?nst no wat seggen, wen wi dat sch?ner vindt. Daait avers n?ms nich. So warrn d?sse w??r ook mid de tiid vergeten. Wat dat systeem vun de maten anlangt, k?mt dat doch daar op an, wo an sik de l?? went hebt. Dat "eenfachste", "logischste" systeem is doch j?mmers dat wo een mid opwussen is, egaal woveel vingers een to`n aftellen bruukt, or nich? Dan ---------- From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.12.15 (01) [D/E/German] Ross History in Europe learned that it took about one century to get metric on the continent. In the Netherlands initially forced by legislation by Napoleon and after 1813 by kings William I, II and III and still we use "pond" for half a kilo. So you must be patient (if you want them to go metric) but at the end of the day (in this case Century) they might, perhaps. Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 16:07:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 08:07:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administativia" 2002.12.17 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last message on this subject (December 3), several people have joined us, and I would like to welcome each and every one of them. At the end of this message you will find a list of the their places of residence. I would also like to take this opportunity to stress once again how important it is that every subscriber be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm, provided in a few languages). During the past few days a few contributors demonstrated that they are not familiar with some of them, especially the following: a.. All exchanges must be in a courteous and friendly tone. a.. Personal communication should be conducted privately. a.. Keep discussions relevant. a.. Keep subjects separate. a.. Stick to the subject. a.. Edit quotes. a.. Give credit. a.. Identify yourself (i.e., provide your name in your postings)* * If you find someone's name in square brackets it means that I have added it as a reminder. If after a few of these reminders the omission persists I will ignore that person's submissions without warning and explanation. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:14:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:14:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administativia" 2002.12.17 (06) [E] Message-ID: This one got away too soon; here is the full list. Sorry - getting used to the program. RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, Since my last message on this subject (December 3), several people have joined us, and I would like to welcome each and every one of them. At the end of this message you will find a list of the their places of residence. I would also like to take this opportunity to stress once again how important it is that every subscriber be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm, provided in a few languages). During the past few days a few contributors demonstrated that they are not familiar with some of them, especially the following: o All exchanges must be in a courteous and friendly tone. o Personal communication should be conducted privately. o Keep discussions relevant. o Keep subjects separate. o Stick to the subject. o Edit quotes. o Give credit. o Identify yourself (i.e., provide your name in your postings)* * If you find someone's name in square brackets it means that I have added it as a reminder. If after a few of these reminders the omission persists I will ignore that person's submissions without warning and explanation. Regards, __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net New subscribers' places of residence: Argentina: Buenos Aires: Buenos Aires [1] Canada: British Columbia: Victoria [1] Quebec: Shawinigan [1] China: Taiwan: Taibei (Taipeh) [1] Germany: Hesse: Frankfurt [1] Lower Saxony: Wedemark [1] North-Rhine-Westphalia: Riesenbeck [1] Indonesia: Sumatera Utara: Medan [1] Netherlands: Zuid-Holland: Leiden [1] South Africa: Cape Province: Belleville [1] Cape Town [1] United Kingdom: England: Essex: Southend on Sea [1] Hampshire: Basingstoke [1] West Yorkshire: Huddersfield [1] Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Pitmedden [1] Lothians: Edinborough [1] South Lanarkshire: Glasgow [1] Wales: Maesteg [1] United States of America: California: Lost Angeles [1] Oakland [1] Indiana: Rushville [1] Kansas: Lawrence [2] Massachussetts: Boston [1] Michigan: Clinton Township [1] Northville [1] Mississippi: Gulfport [1] Missouri: Springfield [1] New York: Rochester [1] Salem [1] North Carolina: Sandford [1] South Carolina: St. George [1] Texas: Sugar Land [1] West Virginia: Oak Hill [1] ? [1] =================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:20:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:20:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (07) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] Hi Ron, I got no "submit" confirmation for this message, which was sent at the same time as my other one, so I'm resending it. Viele Gr??e, Gabriele ----- Original Message ----- From: "Global Moose Translations" To: "Discussion list for Germanic Lowlands languages and cultures" Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:39 AM Subject: Re: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] > > Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. > > I am very interested. > > Ross, > the example of the double positive was the exclamation at the end of the > little anecdote: "Yeah, right!" Those are two positives, and together they > express that the speaker does not believe what has been said, thus the > opposite of what "yeah" or "right" would have meant by themselves. Of > course, since this is conveyed merely by sarcasm, it's not really an > equivalent of two negatives cancelling each other out. Still, I like the > little story. > > Here's an example of a double negative used tongue-in-cheek by Wilhelm > Busch, the great Lower Saxon poet and painter (who wrote in both Platt and > High German): > > "Drum merk': bei Damen sollst du fein > gar niemals nicht ironisch sein!" > > ("So keep in mind - don't you never be ironic with the ladies"). > > Cheers, > Gabriele ---------- From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Speaking of double negatives: The following should count as a point in case; it is part of a request I just received from one of my translation customers: "We now need to review all your details and make sure they are all up to date and fill in any missing gaps we may have." Missing gaps? Well, if they aren't there, why fill them? I find it fascinating that the only way to "correctly" emphasize something negative is to add a string of positive attributes to only one negative one (as in "this is really, truly and most certainly a lie"). Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (02) [E] Daniel and others, While a bit tangential, it's funny to think that in fact, as far as I know, all the "children of Latin", the Romance Languages, flaunt their double negatives right and left! Stan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 17:22:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 09:22:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Hello Johan, One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the M?nsterland area where we call it "Muorgen". Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! Klaus-Werner Kahl www.plattdeutsch.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:45:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:45:15 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.17 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations globalmoose at t-online.de Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (08) [E] > Gabrielle, please give me an example of a "double positive" in a sentence. > I am very interested. Ross, the example of the double positive was the exclamation at the end of the little anecdote: "Yeah, right!" Those are two positives, and together they express that the speaker does not believe what has been said, thus the opposite of what "yeah" or "right" would have meant by themselves. Of course, since this is conveyed merely by sarcasm, it's not really an equivalent of two negatives cancelling each other out. Still, I like the little story. Here's an example of a double negative used tongue-in-cheek by Wilhelm Busch, the great Lower Saxon poet and painter (who wrote in both Platt and High German): "Drum merk': bei Damen sollst du fein gar niemals nicht ironisch sein!" ("So keep in mind - don't you never be ironic with the ladies"). Cheers, Gabriele ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:47:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:47:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (10) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: j_thole at ftml.net Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > From: Klaus-Werner Kahl > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > > Hello Johan, > > One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the M??nsterland area where > we > call it "Muorgen". Bedaankt veur oen antwoart! Noe weet ik allenig nich mear hoev?lle morgens mien oald-oom had hef :-) Good goan, Johan Thole ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 17 20:48:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:48:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.17 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] Gabrielle stated that "Yeah, right", were double positives. Factually, this is correct. But, literally, it is what is known as "irony" or "ironic", that is a statement that is purposfully the reverse of what you actually mean. While the opposite, negatives, can be used for ironic purposes, i. e., "Well, I never........!" This almost acts as a "segway" (which is a coined word) to another thread, and which has always been an irritant to an English teacher and "linguist" such as I. That is, poor grammar or syntax in an effort to be correct. i.e. "I feel badly about that" in place of its correct "I feel bad about that". Others such as "aren't I ?" in place of "ain't I ?" (the "correct one" is much worse than the vulgar one". But that's a new thread. One gentleman almost quoted me when he inferred that I had stated that authority had no effect on language usage. Just the opposite in fact is true. While I stated that authority could not force usage as in the case of the Normans on the Anglo-Saxons, the structure stayed, but the vocabulary changed dramatically. The illiterate commoner and the literate nobility effect was to change the language into a new English, not a new Norman French. But the French speaking monks and prelates probably had more effect on the common speech, because THEY were the main source and mainstay of the written language, and later the spoken. The latinization of vocabulary by the Normans and their monks caused many good descriptive flexible Middle English words to become unused and eventually lost. The English language method of inflection for complicated, even abstract meanings was much more sophisticated then than now and many of the old forms have been lost or replaced by syntactical arrangement. The English language was a language of impact and clear thought, and still is if you take the weak latinization out. It is interesting to observe Churchill's famous address to the English people. It contains all English words except for one. "surrender". Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 00:52:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 16:52:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.17 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jim Krause Subject: A Curious English Contraction- This was touched upon briefly by Harlan Ross May when he wrote "Others such as 'aren't I ?' in place of 'ain't I ?' (the correct one is much worse than the vulgar one. But that's a new thread." This brings up a question that I have always had since I was in gradeschool. Why was ain't considered substandard English? Also, am I mistaken in my belief that ain't is a contraction of am not? It always appeared to me that ain't was a particularly useful word and it belonged in proper usage, such as "I ain't going Christmas shopping today." But it would be incorrectly used, following my logic in the sentence "You ain't going Christmas shopping today." Any thoughts? Jim Krause p.s. The closing "As Always, Your Obedient Servant" is a historical closing from the period of late 1700 through the mid-1800's. It was probably the most common closing used to end letters. Lewis and Clark both used this closing in many letters they penned just prior to the expedition. It shows the courtesy and respect used by people of the time. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:29:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:29:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: legislating language change When the mennonites left netherlad after the re-formation,ending up in a part of Poland which later became part of Prussia..They did not write their Friesian or whatever ,but communicated in Dutch.The official language of Prussia being German pressure was put on them to change their writing to German.So their church legislated their school teaching and religious written communication to be German which they adhered to to this day..In Russia they were often thought of as German and suffered the consequences. When Germany occupied their part of Russia in WW2 , she gave them German citizenship.. Cornelius Bergen ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:32:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:32:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.18 (02) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: MEASURES + Etymology Voor wie het interesseert: Er is nu wat druk praatverkeer geweest over maten, metrieke stelsels, en dergelijke. Dit doet mij denken aan de etymologie van HUNEBED. Toevallig ben ik de enige die dat weet. Maar over 18 seconden niet meer. Hier gaat ie: HUNEBED betekent MASSAGRAF. Vanwege de connotatie met dit woord tegenwoordig moet je maar begrijpen: gemeenschapsgraf. BED komt van een Indo-Europees semeem dat 'graven' betekent. HUN betekent 'honderd' en dit woord had in het I-E nog niet het ERD-achtervoegsel, en zonder dit achtervoegsel is het ook in sommige Oudgermaanse talen nog overgeleverd. De Oudgermanen maakten van HUN 'hondERD' [ik vermoed vanwege de overgang van het 12-tallig stelsel naar het decimaal stelsel]. [Vertalers van IJslandse saga's hebben vaak niet door dat 'hundrad' meestal vertaald moet worden met '100', maar soms toch met '120']. [Mijn geheugen vertelt me dat de Krimgoten bij 'honderd' geen 'erd' achtervoegsel hadden]. In het I-E was 100 het hoogste getal [alle I-E talen maakten een eigen woord voor 1000], en '100' werd dan ook gebruikt voor 'heel veel'. Mijns inziens komt HUN / HON in deze betekenis bijvoorbeeld ondermeer ook voor in 'Hondsrug', zijnde een lange reeks droge zandplaten in een natte omgeving. HUNEBED is dus: graf van/voor velen, of zoals we al zeiden: gemeenschapsgraf. Voor mensen uit de I-E cultuur was een gemeenschapsgraf iets bijzonders, want de Indo-Europeers kenden individuele graven. Wel, dit is opgelost. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.17 (03) [D/E] Pieter en Marcel: Betreft pingewijn: ik zat te denken aan overname uit het frans, gezien de -ijn uitgang; en klaarblijkelijk werd de -g- uitgesproken. Scheepsverslaggevers waren wel talig. Ik ben benieuwd of toendertijd pingewijn [ook] gangbare volkstaal was. vr. gr. Theo Homan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:36:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:36:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] Couldn't resist an old joke about measurements. Here's the Canadian version: A Newfie (a Newfoundlander) goes and pays a visit to his cousin in Alberta who owns a large ranch. Cousin: Ya know, I can get up at dawn and drive all day and never come to the end of my property. Newfie: Tell me about it, bye. I used ta have a car like that, too. ---------- From: Heinrich Becker Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (10) [E/LS] van Heinrich Becker , woonplats Wedemark maar M?nsterlander van geborte, verschillene germaanse talen pratend... Hallo Johan, het is geen problem als je weet, hoeveel Hektar je old-oom gehad heeft. Moet je alleen maar met vier multiplizeerden. Veel geluk en Prettige Kerstdagen nar het mooie Drenthe. ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: history Reuben wrote: ___________________________ Let us not forget that a full circle continues to consist of 360 degrees and that a year consists of 12 months, of which the last month, December, is named the tenth. I wonder why! How can you metricate that? ___________________________ This is because of the ancient Roman calendar. They introduced the calendar as we use it now, but there year started in May. That's why the tenth month was called December (just like September is called 'seventh', whereas it actually is OUR ninth month...). This is by the way also the reason why Februari has fewer days than other months, it was simply the last one left! Another nice anecdote: The month July and August both have 31 days, because emperor August didn't want HIS month to have fewer days than Caesar's one (July), so that's why they both have 31 days. This day was of course taken away from February. (the concept of 31 days - 30 days - 31 days etc. has something to do with the impossiblility to slice up the year into even pieces which also corresponded with the moon tide...) That's why February (again!) loses it's last day three out of four years. Before they introduced this last solution, the calendar had to be corrected every X years by Rome, in order to make it correspond to the moon tides again... But since this is hardly Lowlandic, I'm shutting up now! Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:38:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:38:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Nicholas Jordan Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (06) [E] As regards "ain't", whether or not it's entirely relevant, it's interesting to notice that "ai" could stand for "am I", to which one can add the commonly-found contracted form of "not", "n't" -> "ain't". Perhaps it was a fashion of the time to do such things in word play, and this is one that's stuck. Perhaps worthy of research, since no-one seems to know for sure where this 'substandard feature' came from. Another theory would be solved quite simply by thinking about speakers' laziness. "Am I not", said at speed, is far more difficult than "ain't". Is it not possible that it is simply that the awkward 'm' dropped out for ease of speech, and that the 'a' shifted so's as not to produce an uncomfortable a->i progression, giving us an "ai" sound. Nick ---------- From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Double negatives Re: Double negatives and cultural elites Don't nobody here care nothin 'bout'at. Kevin McAuliff, Northwest Georgia ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 15:48:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:48:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language resources" Dear all, this is not strictly Lowlands, but might be of interest to those of you who are interested in German dialects in general: an on-line Swabian-into-English dictionary. While most entries are "serious", some are very funny, too - like the Swabian name for Zerberus: "Jenseitsdaggl" - the Dachshound of Beyond! http://members.aol.com/hgurski3/swabvoc.htm Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Resources Thanks for the resource tip (above), Gabriele (and note that I am one of few who make an effort to spell your name correctly). But why "German dialects in general"? We don't deal with German dialects, except marginally with Missingsch and other North German dialects that have Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") substrates or influences. If you have in mind Lowlands Saxon itself, well, it is a separate language, officially so for several years now. I know that some people in the Netherlands and Germany have missed the bus and still refer to it as _dialect_/_Dialekt_~_Mundart_. But *we* don't do so, do we? Perhaps you meant to say "Germanic varieties"? ;) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 17:58:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:58:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.18 (05) [E] Heavens no, Ron, I'd never make myself guilty of such a crime - I am devastated that you should not put that past me. I said this was NOT strictly Lowlands, and to my knowledge, Swabian - unlike Lower Saxon, of course - is a dialect, not a separate language, unless someone as convincing as you comes and tells me otherwise. But, of course, just to stay on your good side (I haven't forgotten what you made St. Nikolaus do to me, and Christmas is near), I'll scratch the "d" word from my vocabulary entirely to prevent further misunderstandings. I have often wondered how many of the people who misspell my name secretly think that I'm the one who can't spell it... maybe it's time to make a public statement that "Gabriele", with one "l", is the standard German spelling of the name. I went by "Gabrielle" in the States, however, because the German pronunciation is a bit tough for foreigners, and it was the only way of avoiding the infamous "Gabby". It seems that, in general, English speakers are uncomfortable pronouncing German, Lower Saxon, Dutch or Scandinavian names that end in "-e", pronounced "-uh". They tend to overemphasize that last vowel in an effort to get it just right. Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:01:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:01:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ian James Parsley Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (03) [D/E] Mathieu, Of course you meant to write: Their year started in *March*, which is why December was the tenth month... ===== ------------------ Ian James Parsley www.ianjamesparsley.net +44 (0)77 2095 1736 JOY - "Jesus, Others, You" ---------- From: Kevin McAuliff Subject: Measures When I was in grad school, I had a Japanese housemate. He asked where to shop for souveniers when he was about to return to Japan. I told him that whatever he bought would likely be of Asian manufacture, and his shopping trip confirmed it. I suggested American rulers, measuring cups and spoons, and the like. After conferring these gifts on friends and relatives, he reported to me that everyone was delighted with such exotic items. We all have our own take on things. Kevin McAuliff ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:04:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:04:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.16 (04) [E] From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Syntax Dear Lowlanders, I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable in some standard varieties (e.g., in Afrikaans in the Lowlands group). In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German), double negation may occur with _nich_ ([nIC]) ~ _ni_ ([nI]) ~_neet_ ([nE.It]) ~ _naait_ ([na.It]) ?not? if a phrase contains a negative pronoun or adverb, and this form of double negation is mandatory if negation is stressed; e.g., (1) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody talks with Elisabeth.? (2) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt nich mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks not with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody does talk with Elisabeth.? (3) Mit Lies? wardt nie (nich) snackt. (?With Elizabeth is never (not) talked.? [impersonal passive]) ?One doesn?t talk with Elizabeth.? (4) Mit Lies? wardt nie nich snackt. (?With Elizabeth is never not talked.? [impersonal passive])) ?One doesn?t ever talk with Elizabeth.? I suppose those of you who know Afrikaans or certain non-standard varieties of other Lowlands languages are familiar with this sort of structure and understand that using a second negative does not cancel/negate the other negative. (I was tempted to provide Afrikaans equivalents but decided to let others do so if they wish.) In Sorbian (~ Lusatian ~ "Wendish", a group of West Slavonic varieties now unique to Germany), including the two standard varieties, double negation and even triple negation is mandatory and does not lead to cancellation or double-cancellation; e.g., Standard Upper Sorbian: (5) Nicht? z Hil?u nihdy njereci. (?Nobody (~ no one) with Elizabeth never not-talks.?) (?Nobody doesn?t never not talk with Elizabeth.? = ungrammatical) (?Nobody never talks with Elizabeth.? = marginally substandard) ?Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.? In Lowlands Saxon this can be grammatical, albeit perhaps marginally so to some listeners: (6) N?ms (~ keeneen) snackt nie nich mit Lies?. (?Nobody (~ no one) talks never not with Elizabeth.?) ?Nobody ever talks with Elizabeth.? [?] To me it ?feels? emphatically negative (?nobody never ever ...?). To some listeners there may be emphatic cancellation here, though I am not sure: ?There isn?t anybody that never talks with Elizabeth.? = ?Everybody talks (~ does talk) with Elizabeth.? Probably constructions 1-4 above would be clearer, hence preferable. What do others think? How does this sort of thing play out in other Lowlands varieties? Thanks in advance. Reinhard/Ron Dear Ron, We have some similar negations in West-Flemish: 't Ei mi da niemand nie gezeid (nobody said that to me). 'k En zeg 'et niet (I don't say it) Ne?n, gij eit mie dao nie gezien? Nink(no, you did'nt see me there? No i didn't) Gij en gaot dat niet zegg'n ene?? (You won't say that, don't you?) 'k Ei em dao nieverans nie geziene (I didn't see him anywhere) Ge ziet gij nie ziek ne?? Nink (You are not sick? Yes I'm not) Kijkt ne ke? o t'er ge?n gevaor niet en is.Nint(Look if there is no danger. No there isn't) Other words that strengthens the negative: nievers niet(nowhere) nooit niet(never) niemand niet(no one) ge?nszins niet (not at all) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:54:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:54:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: jpkrause Subject: Language Change "So their church legislated their school teaching and religious written communication to be German which they adhered to to this day." Cornelius Bergen Not quite. As a matter of fact, German has not been officially used in the U.S by Mennonite Church publications since the outbreak of WWI. . And being a product of Mennonite higher education I can assure you on personal experience that all of my classes were conducted in standard American English. And while I'm at it, Reuben Epp makes some rather critical observations regarding Mennonite usage of German in his book "The Story of Low German and Plautdietsch" I quote from p. 87 "Moelleken describes the High German of the Mennonites as a radical departure from standard German. He labels it 'Mennonitisches Standard-deutsch,' and thereafter refers to is at MSD at its best, and as 'Dummy High' at its most disfunctional." There is more, but I'll leave it up to the reader to investigat this further. Suffice it to say that I have heard all of Epp's examples in the slopbucket Deutsch spoken in central Kansas. We would be better off retaining our ancestral Plautdietsch. I say "we" because I am one of them. Jim Krause (probably should be Kruse) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:57:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:57:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (10) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (08) [E] > From: Klaus-Werner Kahl > Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.17 (01) [D/E/LS] > > Hello Johan, > > One "Morgen" is 2500 square meters. I live in the M?nsterland area > where we > call it "Muorgen". > > Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best! > > Klaus-Werner Kahl > www.plattdeutsch.net Hallo ! "De tijd die een boer nodig heeft om een akker te ploegen is hier belangrijk. Als een boer heel de voormiddag nodig gehad heeft, dan is dat land een morgen groot. Dat kan dus vari?ren he! Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: measure words Ian James Parsley wrote: __________________________ Of course you meant to write: Their year started in *March*, which is why December was the tenth month... __________________________ Yes indeed! English is such a difficult language :-) It shows once again: never think ahead, always concentrate on the sentence you're writing... Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:58:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:58:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Measure words" 2002.12.18 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Syntax Ron wrote: > I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the > topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being > commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard > speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable > in some standard varieties Of course there is always the horrible example of '1980s' Dutch: "never nooit niet" I can also remember that the double/triple negation is considered by some as typical for eastern Brabantish dialects (southern Dutch): "hier gebeurt ok nooit niks nie" Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 18:59:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:59:49 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Syntax Ron wrote: > I wonder if some of you are interested in revisiting once again the > topic of double negation and exploring triple negation, these being > commonly regarded as being features of unsophisticated or substandard > speech modes but are grammatically prescribed or at least acceptable > in some standard varieties Of course there is always the horrible example of '1980s' Dutch: "never nooit niet" I can also remember that the double/triple negation is considered by some as typical for eastern Brabantish dialects (southern Dutch): "hier gebeurt ok nooit niks nie" Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Dec 18 22:58:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:58:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.DEC.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] I went to my Oxford English Dictionary (which is supposed to be the ultimate authority) and surprisingly it had very little to say about "ain't" except that it was dialectical and means "am not" or "are not" and gives "a'nt" as a variant spelling. It gives about three literary usages (text) dating back to the 1600's. I was surprised that such a common word got such little treatment, when a word such as "fix", gets about three full pages. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 19 15:33:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:33:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.19 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (04) [E] I think that probably dialectical words such as "ain't" and others will never reveal their true origins because of the lack or written material of a dialectical nature. As most of you know, spelling during the 14th century wasn't exactly prescribed by any authority. Because the scriptures were religiously copied, that is down to the last letter under threat of blesphemy, and suffered no stylistic spelling, many think that there was some standard of spelling that came down to us. Well, I guess it was, but it was just the spelling that the translator decided to use. If you will note, in the Early Modern English of the translations that we call correct today, there are variants in syntax and grammatical choice. So, you could see right there that changes were ongoing, so many variants were considered permissible. One spelling variant that was seen painted on some old signs or engravings, was the use of "Ye". Now, this was not the pronoun "Ye", but actually a spelling of the article pronounced just as we pronounce it today. The word "The". It seems that during the time these names were established the letter "Y" was used for the "th" sound. So it mistakenly ends up today being pronounced the same as the pronoun "Ye". i.e, "Ye Olde Candy Shop". It doesn't translate "Your old candy shop", but "The old candy shop". But I am digressing here. Just thought some might like to pronounce these recreations of old inns in Britain and the U. S., the way they were intended, "the". There are as many correct early spellings as the mind of the writer wanted to fabricate. Would be nice today to legitimately originate your own spellings and coin you own words (like William Shakespeare did). But, come to think of it, my wife enjoys that practice today. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Marcel Bas mrbas_26 at hotmail.com Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.18 (08) [E] Hi Ron, In Leiden the negation _nooit geen_ (never no) for _nooit_ (never) is very common: "Ik krraig neujt geejn ^antwoorrd" (I never get no answer) and the English-inspired "Daarr hebbie toch never-nooit iets an" (that will never-never help you). It is possible that these double negations also occur in the the other urban dialects in the Randstad area, such as in the Rotterdam dialect. Now I have a question; in the Dutch province of Drenthe (where a Low Saxon dialect is spoken), in the town of Roden, I talked to a man who - to my surprise - applied the double negation the way it was familiar to me in Afrikaans. Attempting to speak Standard Dutch (ABN) he said: "Hij hoeft _niet_ veel te eten _niet_", repeating the negation at the end of every clause! Can anyone tell me if this double negation is normal in Drenthe? Best regards, Marcel. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 19 16:38:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 08:38:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: corber Subject: re legislating language In my last mail I should have stated that "some" Mennonites churches adhere to the German language to this day...instead of saying that "they adhere to to this day" Cornelius Bergen ---------- From: Penny S. Tipper Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (09) [E] "'Moelleken describes the High German of the Mennonites as a radical departure from standard German. He labels it 'Mennonitisches Standard-deutsch,' and thereafter refers to is at MSD at its best, and as 'Dummy High' at its most disfunctional.' ... I have heard all of Epp's examples in the slopbucket Deutsch spoken in central Kansas. We would be better off retaining our ancestral Plautdietsch. I say "we" because I am one of them." - Jim Krause (probably should be Kruse) Just wondering about the term "slopbucket Deutsch" -- with languages constantly evolving, couldn't "MSD" eventually become an official language in its own right, deserving every bit of respect? Perhaps it's a different case in that it isn't anyone's mother tongue, but just the funny way you talk to your Prediger (just guessing here). I must say, as a long-time student of German and its all Adjektive-Endungen fun, my first impression of Dutch was, This must be some kind of sloppy, cheater-German. What about the sacred trinity of Der-Die-Das? What about that? De..het? I didn't get it. But as I delve deeper into Dutch, I'm getting to learn its special charm.. kennen. Ha! Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere. I've become interested in the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for it deal with what is spoken in Germany. I have, however, read reports that state the language is generally in great danger of extinction in all Mennonite communities in the Americas, except for those in South America. Is the same true in Germany? Either way, here's a website I came across, explaining, auf deutsch, many fascinating intricacies of the efficient "plattd??tsch" expression. I found to be a lot of fun: http://www.beepworld.de/members18/goldbuett/norddeutscheart.htm mfg, Penny S. Tipper (I hope I didn't mess up too bad on my first post!) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language policies Cornelius, it seems to me that the only difference between "conservative" Mennonite communities and other Protestant communities of what are now Northern Germany and the northern and eastern parts of the Netherlands is that the mentioned Mennonite church elders have not *changed* the language policies. The policies used to be the same, and Mennonites of "Western Prussia" had only adapted to what then was pretty much the law of the land (with little or no separation between church and state). In Northern Germany, "Low German" -- which includes the Saxon-derived dialects (the ones we here call "Low[lands] Saxon") as well as a small group of Low Frankish dialects that are closer to Limburgish but happen to be used on the German side of the German-Belgian-Netherlands border -- came to be pretty much outlawed in administration and churches, certainly by the early 18th century. Those for whom it was the native and only language would thus have to rely on the kindness of neighbors, administrators or pastors to help them understand what was going on "higher up." Those few children from poorer homes that did attend schools got their native language beaten out of them, also by pastors during confirmation lessons (and this well into the 20th century). Children from "better" homes usually were more exposed to "good" (i.e., "high") German and thus had an edge over their poorer classmates. "High" German thus came to be associated with higher status, refinement and anything "legitimate." This came to be adopted in churches, despite the fact that Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism, had expressly ordered translations and services in the language of the Saxons in Saxon lands, and that many or most parishioners did not fully understand scriptures and sermons in "High" German. (This also happened in Slavonic-speaking areas, such as in Zhorjelc/G?rlitz, the then capital of Sorbian-speaking Lusatia, which consequetly quickly came to be lost to Lusatia.) I believe that things were pretty much the same in the Netherlands where "good Dutch" was shoved down the throats of non-Dutch speakers in a similar manner. Things changed in the late 19th century, certainly in the 20th century, when in the wake of alternative philosophies (including atheism) competing with Christianity many members of the Protestant (and to a degree Catholic) clergy began to rethink the church's language policy. They would first speak with their parishioners in the Saxon dialects in private, and little by little Saxon-speaking services or at least sermons came to be introduced, usually on an occasional or alternative basis and with a minimum of attention "higher up." Success soon convinced parishes and bishops that this was a beneficial strategy. (Even now, even many people who do not have Lowlands Saxon as their native language like to attend "Platt" services, especially during the Chrismas season.) However, by the time this was happening, most Mennonites (who descended from Frisians, Dutch, and Low Saxons [from both the Netherlands and Germany]) had already left their temporary homeland at the Vistula delta for "New Russia" (i.e., Ukraine) and for the "New World," and when this new movement in the West was gathering speed, many Mennonites had been shipped off to Siberia and Central Asia. In relative isolation some of their communities clung to the old attitude and policies according to which it would be offensive to God to be addressed in the supposedly coarse native language the parishioners. There are two special, remarkable phenomena in the case of Mennonites outside Germany: (1) While Saxon speakers in Germany have been constantly exposed to German and have been (directly or indirectly) forced to learn and use it to survive, Mennonites elsewhere were and are under no such obligation, being instead surrounded by speakers of Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Kyrghyz, Uzbek, English, Spanish or Portuguese. They thus carried German with them in addition to their native language, using and preserving their brand of German as what in Yiddish is known as _loshn koydesh_ (< Hebrew _lashon kodesh_ 'sacred tongue') with reference to Hebrew, using it only for religious purposes (including oratory). In contrast, ever since their land came under German and Dutch domination, to speakers of Lowlands Saxon in Germany and the Netherlands German and Dutch respectively have been the languages of authority, and organized religion is merely a part of this package. Besides, while secular authorities have proved to be anything but sympathetic and helpful to the survival struggle of minority languages (stalling and sabotaging European Charter ratification efforts even now that these languages been officially recognized under European Union pressure), some churches have been the only places of authority in which the language of the land has a place and gets some respect. (2) While I can understand why some Mennonite communities preserved this linguistic stratefication or compartmentalization, what really interests me is what provoked other communities to pretty much abandon German and use predominantly Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (_Plautdietsch_). Did they simply find it too burdensome to deal with German (the native language of none of them) in addition to their own and that of their new countries? Did they arrive at the conclusion independently that the language of the people ought also be the language of their churches, or were they inspired by others, such as other minority groups in their new countries or indeed by the movement in Germany? This movement in Northern Germany culminated in the foundation of Plattform "Plattd??tsch in de Kark", an association that advocates the use of "Platt" in churches: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/europe_religious.htm, http://www.zfn-ratzeburg.de/pd_in_de_kark.htm L?nsweg 28 D-29614 Salta/Soltau Germany Its long-time president, Hein(rich) Kr?ger (both a pastor and a professor), has studied the history of this movement and published his findings of which he recently sent me a copy: Kr?ger, Heinrich, _Plattd??tsch in de Kark in drei Jahrhunderten, Bd.1, 18. und 19. Jahrhundert_, Hannover: Luther Verlag, 1996, ISBN 3785907222 I think it would be very interesting to include Mennonite information in this sort of study. Penny, welcome to the List, neighbor (in this case "neighbour")! (I am in Seattle.) No, you did not mess up at all. Congratulations! You are one of few "newbies" who got everything right the first time. You asked: > Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon > Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is > identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of > Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere. I've become interested in > the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for it > deal with what is spoken in Germany. I can really only answer for myself. Coming from the angle of Northern Lowlands Saxon (Neddersassisch ~ Nedderd??tsch ~ Plattd??tsch) of Northern Germany I have hardly any problems understanding Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch). This is partly due to the reason that speakers of both LS and German in Germany are used to the "eastern shifts," such as g > j, ? > ie and ? > e, in both LS and German dialects (though younger Germans are not used to them as much as most displaced citizens from what are now Poland and Russia have passed away). The only two features that gave me minor problems at first were the shifts e > a, and a > au, strangely only in written form, not when I listened to the dialects (which may or may not be a red flag to show that there is an orthographic stumbling block). Another reason why Plautdietsch is relatively easy to understand for Germans is that it seems to have far more ("High") German loanwords than have the LS dialects of Germany (not to mention those of the Netherlands). Some years ago, I introduced Reuben Epp (Canada) and Clara Kramer-Freudenthal (Germany) to each other (via email). Tant Clara wrote to me saying that she had no problems understanding what Reuben wrote in Plautdietsch. I do not really know if communication was as easy when Reuben and Irmgard visited Clara and Heinz in Norderstedt. (Perhaps Reuben can tell us this.) As for Reuben, we ought not be surprised that he understands the other LS dialects very well, since he is very learned in this area and has been dealing with the language for a long time, being one of few who has dared to go beyond Plautdietsch to deal with the entire language (and he no doubt has profited from it). Some Plautdietsch speakers have told me that they have some problems reading LS dialects other than their own. This is clearly due to a lack of exposure and awareness of the sound shifts, as well as lack of familiarity with Saxon words that Plautdietsch has replaced with German (or Russian, English, Spanish or other) loans. I feel confident that continual exposure to each other's dialects will gradually remove these barriers. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:36:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:36:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Negatives and borrowings Hi again! The multiplication of negatives reminds me of a lovely line in a well known Scots and sometimes Irish folksong "The Wild Rover" the chorus of which goes: "No nay never - no nay never no more Will I play the wild rover No never no more." The Scots have lovely ways of being emphatic - as the recent paperback collection of maledictions "Awa and Bile Yer Heid" makes clear. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:38:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:38:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Negatives and borrowings By the way, Harlan, "segway" isn't a coined word! The word "segue" is just a straight Hollywood borrowing from Spanish meaning transition from its literal Spanish meaning "follows." For some reason it became popular among Hollywood gays of the "flamer" variety to pepper their speech with phrases from Spanish to prove they were trendy - (as they had been doing with French for decades if not centuries in England) and it spread from them through the movie industry - being picked up by scriptwriters, d.o.p.s (directors of photography) and from there into the general public. I find it fascinating that it is now so engrained that its origin in L.A.has been forgotten by people who don't work (or dabble as I do) in the movie business! People who still use a lot of "L.A. Spanish" this way are even parodied in some t.v. sitcoms as annoyingly pretentious characters. (e.g. "Michael" on the Newhart show) Feliz navidad Jorge (George) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 17:41:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:41:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.19 (01) [E] Meneer Rossmay, I think that maybe you are not entirely correct about saying that the leter ?Y? was pronounced as ?th? (usually represented foneticaly as ?dh?), but rather that the leter ???, was mistaken for ?y?. the leter ???, had become obsolete. From that which I have read, that seems to be the origin of the ?ye? about which you refer. Blij Zonwende! [Frija van den Haagediessen] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 22:00:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:00:48 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (02) [E] Dear (Tocayo) Jorge Gibault and other Lowlanders, I have no idea of just how "segway" got to L.A., but "segue"--pronounce the u like w--is Italian. Spanish is "sigue"--don't pronounce the u. They both are third singular, meaning "follows." Present indicative of Italian seguire: (Always pronounce the "u.") seguo segui segue seguiamo seguite seguono Present indicative Spanish seguir--never pronounce the "u." sigo sigues sigue seguimos segu?s siguen Bye from PR (Tocayo) Jorge Potter > By the way, Harlan, "segway" isn't a coined word! The word "segue" is just > a straight Hollywood borrowing from Spanish meaning transition from its > literal Spanish meaning "follows." For some reason it became popular among > Hollywood gays of the "flamer" variety to pepper their speech with phrases > from Spanish to prove they were trendy - (as they had been doing with > French for decades if not centuries in England) and it spread from them > through the movie industry - being picked up by scriptwriters, d.o.p.s > (directors of photography) and from there into the general public. I find > it fascinating that it is now so engrained that its origin in L.A.has been > forgotten by people who don't work (or dabble as I do) in the movie > business! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 22 22:02:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:02:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (03) [D/E] Madam Christine has used a complicated analysis, which I did not seek to do, to say the same thing that I said in common tongue. That is, that "Ye Old Ale House" is pronounced "The Old Ale House" and not the archaic "Ye" (a pronoun) of the Bible which most English speaking people use. You are a fine philologist, Christine as opposed to me, an ordinary "linguist". My hat is off to you. I was also corrected on "Segway" and since I had only heard it vocally, I spelled it the way it sounds, ( definitely a new English word now ) and spelled that way by the uninformed of ther eastern parts of the country, where it only recently filtered as an expression. I stand corrected. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 05:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:14:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.22 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.12.22 (05) [E] I thank Meneer RossMay, for his compliment. That was a courteoous thing to do. With respect to the word ?segway? and wherefrom it came, I do not know not at all, Never have I known naught of nothing , of the exact origins of ?segway?, but perhaps from the illustratie given was it actually of Italiaans origin, since the pronounciation and spelling are suggestive thereof. Wad ?ink others on this? ;^) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 21:04:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:04:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Richard Creel Subject: segue, etc. Discussing the use of "segue" in the US is not worth the effort. For those of you who know Spanish, el empleo de dicho termino no pasa de ser pura guarangada, y chau. Richard Nash Creel, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 23:39:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:39:40 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (02) [Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ChristineVlaamse at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Gracias al buen Se?or Nash, por su avis. Es m?y amable de el nos elucidar tanto. Evidamente le necesitabamos. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 23 23:46:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:46:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.23 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: xmas Hi, Ron, and all of You, wish You merry Christmas and cheerful going-on in LL-L. I'm hoping for a soon comeback in Your funny, amazing and yet often serious circle. Very best regards Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." "Iced Earth" (originally W.S., Macbeth) ---------- From: andrew waterhouse Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] Greetings folks, My name is Andrew. I live in England, UK (near nottingham/Loughborough for those who know the place! I'm not sure if I will be able to contribute to this list, but I think it is very interesting. i have an interest in learning Old (AS) English. I'm pretty poor at it truth be told - but one can only learn!! I remember a post on another list just a month or so ago where a guy found that a frisian speaker could understand his Old English - pretty easily! I would like to comment on negations and other stuff - but need to consult my books first - and that means after Christmas. Til then, Gl?d Geol 7 Ges?lig Niw Gear eallum mannum ?isses geferscipes! Andrew ps No hablo muchos espagnol ala, Milates licho Elenekas! ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings W?s ?u, Andreas, hal! W?s ?u gesund and wilcuma t? ure hr?d?rendgewritl?sta! Raginhard, ?ower Seaxan l?dare and fr?ond Fiete, moie Wiehnachten ook an Di un Dien L??d?. Kaam man gau tr?gg! Reinhard/Ron Happy Holidays to all! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 03:13:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:13:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Syntax" 2002.12.23 (04) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jacobus Le Grange Subject: Double negatives Hello all Lowlanders, I really enjoyed the contributions of Marcel and Luc on the use of double negatives in West Flemish and other members of the Lowlands language group. Afrikaans follows Flemish closely as I have heard the equivelent expressions frequently. In Afrikaans we have the use of a positive and negative which can sometimes carry a deep emotional content. Ja nee ou swaer dit is werklik 'n groot verlies. Literally: yes no old brother-in-law it is truly a great loss. In colloquial use "swaer" does not necessarily mean your actual Brother-in-law but just a close friend. "Ou" does not necessarily mean an aged person but could be someone known for a long time. The question is -what does one term a positive negative? A "nul" perhaps:)? and do any of the lowland languages have anything resembling this? In our dialect of English we also have some strange usages but I'll come back to that after the holidays. 'n merrie krismis en 'n hings nuwe jaar 'n koei vendusie en 'n bul basaar. Just kidding so I shall say it properly 'n Gese?nde Kersfees en 'n voorspoedige nuwejaar aan almal. John le Grange ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 03:58:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:58:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.23 (05) [Spanish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (02) [Spanish] Senor Nash, Felice Navidad ! Muy Importante! [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings Amigos y amigas, Porque esto es una per?odo festivo para muchos de nosotros, es permitido fijar simplemente saludos a la lista. Sin embargo, considere por favor que en situaciones normales necesitamos limitar nuestras actividades a los intercambios de informaci?n relevante, m?s all? de intercambios de las sutilezas que pertenecen a las conversaciones privadas. No debemos tratar este foro pues un chatroom con las charlas "fr?volas". Explicar? (en ingl?s) esto con m?s detalle en mi mensaje administrativo siguiente. Hasta entonces m? le agradezco por adelantado por su cooperaci?n y paciencia. ?Feliz Navidad y recuerdos sentidos por el A?o Nuevo a todos mis amigos hisp?nicos y a los otros que pueden leer la lengua castellana -- sobretodo respecto, amor y paz por todas partes en nuestro planeta peque?o! Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Fundador y administrador de Lowlands-L ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 16:00:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:00:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.24 (01) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Klaus-Werner Kahl Subject: Gnaodenrike Winachtsdage un een gl?ksi?lig ni Jaor Dat Li?wen Dat Li?wen is een Spi?l, spi?l et. Dat Li?wen is ene Plicht, hol di dran. Dat Li?wen is Riekdoom, waar em. Dat Li?wen is een Ewent??r, waog et. Dat Li?wen is ene Si?ligkait, do se genaiten. Dat Li?wen is Truerigkait, do se ??werwinnen. Dat Li?wen is en Draum, maak em waor. Dat Li?wen is w??dvul, gao suorglik daomet ?m. Dat Li?wen is een Truerspi?l, gao dao gi?genan. Dat Li?wen is een R??dsel, ku?m dao ?chter. Dat Li?wen is een Wedstried, ni?m em up. Dat Li?wen is Laiwe, frai di dran. Dat Li?wen is V?spri?ken, hol di dran. Dat Li?wen is een Leed, sing et. Dat Li?wen is Li?wen, v?deffendeer et. Dat Li?wen is Gl?k, v?dain et di. Gnaodenrike Winachtsdage un een gl?ksi?lig ni Jaor w?nsket Klaus-Werner Kahl uut Risenbi?k www.plattdeutsch.net ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings [English below] Hier is mien ?versetten vun Klaus-Werner sien westfaalsch Riemel (baven) in't Noordneddersassische: Dat L?ven Dat L?ven is ?n Sp??l. Sp??l dat. Dat L?ven is ?n Plicht. Hold di daar an. Dat L?ven is Riekdoom. Wahr em. Dat L?ven is ?n Avent??r. Waag? dat. Dat L?ven is ?n Seeligkeit. Do ehr geneten. Dat L?ven is Trurigkeit. Do ehr oeverwinnen. Dat L?ven is ?n Droom. Maak em wahr. Dat L?ven is w??rdvull. Gah sachten daar mit ?m. Dat L?ven is ?n Truerspeel. Gah daar g?gen an. Dat L?ven is ?n Raadsel. Kaam daar achter. Dat L?ven is ?n Weddstried. N?hm em up. Dat L?ven is Leev?. Freih di daar an. Dat L?ven is V?rspr?ken. Hold di daar an. Dat L?ven is ?n Leed. Sing dat. Dat L?ven is L?ven. Verdeffendeer dat. Dat L?ven is Gl?ck. Verdehn di dat. My English translation of the verse in Westphalian and North Saxon Lowlands Saxon (Low German) above: Life Life is a game. Play it. Life is a duty. Follow it. Life is wealth. Save it. Life is an adventure. Dare it. Life is bliss. Enjoy it. Life is sadness. Get over it. Life is a dream. Make it come true. Life is precious. Treat it with care. Life is a tragedy. Fight it. Life is a riddle. Solve it. Life is a challenge. Accept it. Life is love. Take pleasure in it. Life is a promise. Keep it. Life is a song. Sing it. Life is life. Defend it. Life is happiness. Earn it. Happy holidays and all the best for 2003! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 24 21:27:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 13:27:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Greetings" 2002.12.24 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Martijna Briggs Subject: Prettige festdagen Met hartelijke dank voor de LL-L list. Prettige Feestdagen ge wenst en een Gezellig Oud en Nieuw. mb ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Greetings As I am virtually out the door on my way to get settled for Christmas Eve, my best holiday wishes go to all of you who celebrate Christmas, as well as to all of you who celebrate Kwaanza (which also begins today, http://www.tike.com/celeb-kw.htm, http://www.caaap.org/journeymagazine/kwaanza/kwaanza.html). Yours, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Dec 26 18:27:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 10:27:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: Syntax >> From: George M Gibault >> Subject: Negatives and borrowings >> >> Hi again! >> >> The multiplication of negatives reminds me of a lovely line in a well known >> Scots and sometimes Irish folksong "The Wild Rover" the chorus of which >> goes: >> >> "No nay never - no nay never no more >> Will I play the wild rover >> No never no more." But is this really double negation? I would parse it like this: "No, nay, never - no, nay, never, no more Will I play the wild rover, Nay, never, no more." Not a double negative in sight! I think the real problem with double negatives isn't in speech but in writing. In speech one has emphasis, tone, context, gesture and verification - and even dialectical cues such as accent - to make clear what's meant. These are mostly absent from writing, and especially formal or technical writing. I wouldn't like to come across this in a technical document: "In most cases within Perl code it isn't necessary to use no array indexes." It is just impossible to know whether the negative is being used additively or multiplicatively. In conversation this would be acceptable however, as if the speaker was just using negatives for emphasis he would be shaking his head or something to make this clear. >> The Scots have lovely ways of being emphatic - as the recent paperback >> collection of maledictions "Awa and Bile Yer Heid" makes clear. Yes, lovely George! :) And used copiously where I come from! Most such Scots expressions would never make it through a publishing house, though: "Awa an shite a brick." (Go to hell) "Thick as shite in a bottle." (Thick in the head) "Di'a gie'z yer pish." (Don't give me such nonsense) "He wadna gie ye the reek aff his shite." (He's very stingy) "Happy as a dug wi twa cocks." (Very happy) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 04:58:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 20:58:33 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: CedricMasset at aol.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in Spanish so I can't understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? [Cedric Masset] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 05:00:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 21:00:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] I have with interest followed Sandy and George in their comments. Scots is a very humorous and dry dialect, and I love it. I don't know at which stage my ancestors abandoned it for the Southern dialect of the United States, but they have been here since the very early 1700's, from Ulster, and originally from Skye and Aberdeen. George, I wonder if you are confusing verse, which has no rules, with writing. I don't think you need to parse it to make it correct. And besides, as a scholar, I don't never use no damned double negatives! BG Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 15:25:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 07:25:45 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (03) [E] > From: rossmay > Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.26 (01) [E/S] > > I have with interest followed Sandy and George in their comments. Scots is > a very humorous and dry dialect, and I love it. I don't know at which stage > my ancestors abandoned it for the Southern dialect of the United States, but > they have been here since the very early 1700's, from Ulster, and originally > from Skye and Aberdeen. George, I wonder if you are confusing verse, which > has no rules, with writing. I don't think you need to parse it to make it > correct. > > And besides, as a scholar, I don't never use no damned double > negatives! BG > > Harlan Ross May > Gulfport, Mississippi, USA Just some points of clarification: Scots is NOT a dialect - but a seperate language. You say that your ancestors came from Ulster, Skye and Aberdeen. If they spoke Scots - they would have spoken Ulster Scots ( Ullans ) - unless they spoke Irish Gaelic, and N.E Scots ( Aberdeen area ) both of which are very distincitctive dialects of Scots - Colin Wilson's book "Scots language leaner" - shows a good example of N.E Scots - any of us Scots reading it or listening to the CDs would immediately say "Aberdeen!". Your ancestors form Skye would have been Gaelic speaking. Skye Gaelic is a very distinctive dialect of Gaelic and has always been considered a beautiful and pure dialect. Yours Chris Ferguson ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 15:27:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 07:27:47 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.27 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Cedric, It is basically "follow", though can be used in conjunction with a following verb to mean "continue ...ing". Anyway, the "segue", as someone else pointed out, is unmistakably Italian, not Spanish, both in form and pronunciation (seg-way=Italian, Spanish is "sigue" pronounced "see-gay"). Stan > From: CedricMasset at aol.com > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) > [E/Spanish] > > I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in > Spanish so I can't > understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? > > [Cedric Masset] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 17:26:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:26:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.27 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Dear Cedric/Lowlanders, The Spanish seguir and the Italian seguire both mean to follow. Example: Follow my car and I'll get you there. Example: Jesus said, "Follow me and I will make you fishers of men." Jorge Potter > From: CedricMasset at aol.com > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.23 (01) [E/Spanish] > > I don't remember the sense of the verb seguir in Spanish so I can't > understand the use of segway.Someone can help me?? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 17:29:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 09:29:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.27 (04) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.12.26 (02) [E] Dan wrote (on Oct. 26): > From: Dan Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) > Subject: LL.L "language survival" > > Moin Holger, > > As ik mi so`n beten ?ver Saterfreesch k?nnig maken wul, st?lter ik ?ver Moin Dan, moin Lowlanders, I immensely enjoyed the review. Considering the examples you reviewed and others world-wide, through the ages, the common denominator appears to be: As long as a language is placed in a secondary position in the - media, - schools - and/or administration, its long-term survival (as a spoken communication language) is impossible. Its as sad and simple as that. Tsch??, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Moin Gabriele, moin to you all, My belated* thanks to you, Gabriele for your travel report. You wrote (a.o.): > If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough > money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... It?s not the money, it?s the political will. The undeclared goal is to snuff out the vernaculars, because they are viewed as a bother rather than a treasure. *health problems prevent me from following the LL-L postings systematically. Tsch?? to all, Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Dec 27 19:30:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:30:31 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.27 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, I hope that all of you who have celebrated them had wonderful holidays and will continue to enjoy special days as we approach the threashold to the year 2003. Our friends who follow Eastern Orthodox traditions still have the main part of their holiday season in front of them, with Christmas on January 7 and traditional New Year on January 14. I wish everyone a wonderful time on behalf of the entire List, as Lowlands-L begins the last quarter of its eighth year. Since my last administrative message ten days ago we have been joined by a number of people from all over the world. You will find a list of their places at the bottom of this message. I am always pleased to be able to welcome people from "new" places and from countries or regions that so far had been represented scarcely (this time for instance Meurthe et Moselle in France, Usanlo-Bilbao in the Basque Country, Blagoevgrad in Bulgaria, Tyumen in Siberia, and Chennai in India's Tamilnadu). A special welcome to them! And now to some business. Some of you still show in their posting submissions that they are not or only insufficiently familiar with our rules and guidelines. The rules and guidelines are available in English, Dutch, Limburgish, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and Russian at http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm. Please familiarize yourselves with them. Among the most persistent mistakes are these: o not staying with a subject line (i.e., making up one's own topic title in responses), o combining two or more subjects in one response, o responding without saying what one is responding to and whose questions one is answering (forgetting that I will erase everything below your signatures unless it is properly edited), o not "signing" one's postings (i.e., forgetting to give ones name, which I will add in square brackets ([ ]) a few times before beginning to ignore that person's submissions). There is a new one that has not yet made its way into the list of guidelines: writing everything in capital letters. Please remember that this is unacceptable, not only on this list but on the Internet in general (apart from being difficult to read, it is perceived as lazy and/or as "yelling," since all-caps is used only for highly dramatic emphasis in chatrooms). The other day I "quietly" ended a Spanish-language chat with a Spanish reminder and promised to bring it up in my next administrative message. No, the use of Spanish is not the issue. In fact, you are free to use any language you wish, though Lowlands languages are preferable. The issue is that this is a list for eliciting and exchanging information, that it ought not be used as a chatroom. You are encouraged to submit postings to ask and answer questions and to share Lowlands-related information with everyone. You are not encouraged to submit postings that amount to nothing more than exchanges of social pleasantries, namely exchanges that qualify as "private correspondence." Before writing a posting submission, please ask yourselves this basic question: "Is it relevant to the List?" ("List" = around 400 people all over the world) Of course it is proper to thank someone for what they have posted, but if all you want to say is "Thank you" you ought to write the person a private note. If you have things to say in addition and feel that the entire List would benefit from it, then by all means submit it as a posting. No, we do not have to be all serious and stiff all the time, and our generally friendly and familial atmosphere lends itself to occasional jesting. Levity is fine, as long as you avoid put-down jokes and ask yourselves if your jokes will be understood by most readers as intended and are not likely to be construed as offensive or as underhandedly aggressive. Submitting postings *only* for jocular bantering is not all right, also falls into the category of "private correspondence." Friendly regards and thanks for your cooperation, Reinhard/Ron __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net *** New Subscribers December 18-27, 2002: Bulgaria: Sofia: Blagoevgrad [1] Canada: British Columbia: Victoria [1] Manitoba: Winnipeg [1] Ontario: Ottawa [1] France: Meurthe et Moselle: Mazires [1] Germany: North-Rhine-Westphalia: Rheine [1] ? [1] India: Delhi: Delhi [1] Tamilnadu: Chennai [1] Mexico: Mexico City: Mexico City [1] Netherlands: South Holland: Leiden [1] Russian Federation: Siberia: Tyumen: Tyumen [1] Spain: Biskaia/Biscaya (Basque Country): Usanlo-Bilbao United Kingdom: England: Devon: Crediton [1] Leicestershire: Loughborough [1] United States of America: Indiana: Fillmore [1] Kentucky: Paducah [1] Maryland: Baltimore [1] Missouri: Warrensburg [1] North Carolina: Salisbury [1] Oregon: Durham [1] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 00:35:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:35:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.27 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, I am sorry to have to bug you again with an administrative matter, just a postscript to the one I sent earlier today. First of all, thank you to those of you who wrote to me in response. Two matters came up more than once, so I have decided to respond to them on the List for everyone's attention. A few subscribers wrote to me apparently with the assumption that I had had specifically them in mind when I wrote about a need to avoid "frivolous" posting. Please note that I was not pinpointing anyone specific and that this was not some sort of reprimand, just a reminder that what for some people is enjoyable bantering may be unnecessary use of bandwidth to other people. In other words, I am merely reminding us all (yes, myself included) to keep our eyes on the actual purposes of this list. By the same token, I do not want to play the "party pooper" and cramp people's styles. After all, I love a good joke, remark or anecdote just as much as everyone else. So please remember that lightheartedness has most definitely a place, just as long as it accompanies relevant substance, and as long as you are aware that there is cultural diversity in humor. One subscriber's request today reminded me that there had been similar requests over time and that it was high time I brought this matter up to the List. This was a request for all subscribers' names and places (not addresses). Sorry, I cannot do that. Names and addresses of subscribers (and the corresponding places) are privileged information, accessible only to the "owners" and "editors" of the List. This information cannot be passed on to anyone, and this is for the sake of security and common-sense confidentiality. A subscriber becomes known to the List if he or she posts anything to the List, and this is their personal choice. (However, I would not pass on any further information about them either if I were privy to it.) Those who elect to remain "lurkers" ("the silent majority") have every right to remain anonymous. I certainly would love to see more of them "come out" and grace us with their wisdom and/or curiosity, but I would never dream of "outing" them, would never betray the trust with which they honored me when they sent me information (names, addresses and places) about themselves. In a word, confidentiality plays an important role on Lowlands-L, certainly as long as I have anything to do with running it. As you know, I periodically welcome new subscribers and list their places of residence. However, I do not connect this information with names and place. Some subscribers have been with us for a long time, a few since the very early months in 1995. In those days I did not do a thorough job of keeping track of subscriptions, and I gradually lost information about the dates on which people joined and the places in which they lived. Besides, some of our loyal subscribers have moved since they joined us, quite a few of them internationally. Also, please bear in mind that rarely does a day go by that someone does not sign up and/or off, and some people leave us and later return. Thus, membership is very much in flux, though there is a solid, stable core membership (of about 75%-80% in my rough estimation). My only New Year's resolution this time around is that I will attempt to keep better track of membership while guaranteeing the same level of confidentiality. I am compiling a list of current members and will attempt to reconstruct some information about their geographic distribution, hoping to eventually produce periodic lists of places of residence (without names and addresses of course). At the same time I will also attempt to keep track of subscription and unsubscription dates, in part to analyze any patterns, if there are any. I assume that this will be my last administrative message of 2002. I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped to make Lowlands-L a hospitable and interesting place for yet another year. Special thanks go to all who have been quietly supporting the running of the List and thos who have been volunteering for special projects, such as Lowlands Talk (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). A massive kudos each goes to Sandy Fleming (UK), Mathieu van Woerkom (Netherlands) and Roman Laryushkin (Ukraine) who have been particularly helpful and productive in many ways. Many warm thanks also to so many others of you who have been very supportive to me and to the List in 2002 and in many cases for several years prior. There will never be a way for me to adequately express my gratitude and delight. Hoping that you all slide smoothly into 2003 and will be safe and happy this coming year, I send you my regards. __________ Reinhard "Ron" F. Hahn Administrator, Lowlands-L http://www.lowlands-l.net ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 00:37:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:37:51 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (01) [E] Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands. Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect. Take no offense at my reply, Chris, please. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 01:19:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:19:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Double plurals Speaking of double negatives, how about double plurals? Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in cases where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must surely be unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) - araba (car) - araba-lar (car-s) - iki araba (two cars) Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Ole Stig, Lowlanders! > Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in cases > where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must surely be > unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double plural is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > /S??(e)/ _Sch?h_ ~ _Sch?uh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this is true double pluralizing. I do agree -- seen globally -- that it seems strange, "excessive," that Germanic languages (and most other Indo-European languages) require plural forms with numbers. It is true that many languages do very well without plural forms or with scarce use of plural markers, for instance Sino-Tibetan languages, Altaic languages (including Turkic, Mongolic, Tungusic, Japanese and Korean), and numerous language groups of Australia, Oceania, Africa and the Americas. Those that manage without plural markers do not seem worse off (contextually), nor do those that do not use articles (another Germanic "extra"), such as Slavic languages and the above-mentioned. So it seems indeed a good question to ask why languages would develop and retain such devices that to others would seem superfluous (aside from difficult to learn -- including also gender marking which is totally unknown and is perceived as unnecessary (!) in most Altaic languages). > ... like Turkish ;-) > > - araba (car) > - araba-lar (car-s) > - iki araba (two cars) Just briefly (for reasons of "un-Lowlandic-ness") let me mention that I have gained the impression that the supposed Turkic plural marker is not a genuine plural marker. In some Turkic varieties, such as the Oghuz languages at the western end (including Turkish), this marker (/-lAr/) seems to be moving toward plural marking function. However, I have found that originally (in Old/Orkhon Turkic and in medieval varieties) and still in the Eastern Turkic languages (such as Uyghur, Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrghyz, Yellow Uyghur, Salar, Khakas, Tuva, Altai) it seems to be something like a "variety marker," implying something like "various (sorts of) ...", not being used in many contexts where plural marking would apply in Germanic languages. I think that in this sense it is similar to Malay and Indonesian noun doubling (e.g., _buah_ 'fruit' versus _buah-buah_ '(various) fruit' where _buah_ alone can indicate plural when plurality is obvious within a given context). We tend to impose our native categorization of morphology on "exotic" languages we learn when in reality the categorization is not entirely warranted. This also applies to Westerners who learn Mandarin Chinese overusing the suffix ?/? _-men_ indicating plural of humans, and overusing ? _-le_ (< _-liao_) as though it were a Western past tense marker when its real function focuses more on change than on past action. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 19:36:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 11:36:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] Ole Stig Andersen wrote: >>Speaking of double negatives, how about double plurals?<< The British Celtic languages have a singular noun following a numeral, i.e. Corn. "two men" (sg. = "man, person"; pl. tus = "men, people"); three cats (sg. cath; pl.: cathas); five years (sg. bledhen; pl. bledhennow); Dialectal and regional English does this a lot, as in "that`s five pound, please"; "it?s only about ten mile" etc. Breton has true double plurals when the diminuitive is used: For example: = "boat" => (or ) = "boats" = "little boat" => sg.n. + pl.sufx. + dim.sufx. + pl.sufx. => = "little boats" Breton (as well as Cornish and Welsh) also have "double" pluarls in other nouns, well, strictly speaking: collective, singulative, plural, i.e. Corn. = "stars" (i.e. in the sky, in general)> collective; = "(one) star" > singulative; = "(a countable amount of) stars" > plural Bret. = "fish" (col.) = "fish" (pl.) = "(one) fish" (sg.) = "(countable amount of) fish" Yours, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 20:19:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:19:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Harlan wrote: > Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements > about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is > not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " > A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish > Lowlands. Yes, just as 'English' is a distinguishing epithet of a dialect of Scots spoken in many parts of the world. It just depends who's writing the definition :) It would be truer to say that Scots is a dialect of Northumbrian, one of the four distinctive Anglo-Saxon dialects of Great Britain. To call this 'English' as if it were the same thing as modern educated English is being a bit vague. > Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but As has often been pointed out, Scots is as distinct from English as Swedish and Danish or Czech and Slovak are from each other. So the political standpoint can't simply be waved away as if it were unimportant in determining language status. > a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, He wouldn't, if he were honest and knowledgable. Judging from the linguistics textbooks I've studied, few have any clue about Scots, often classifying it as a dialect of English yet failing to include it in their discussions of English dialect. Peter Trudgill's popular introductory books on English dialectology leave the Scots question open but restrict their discussion to dialects of England. Even worse is David Crystal, who concludes that Shetlandic is just English, judging from a sample of a Shetland man speaking English (_not_ Shetlandic!). This is like concluding that French is just English because you've heard a Frenchman speaking English. The problem is that while not willing to admit that Scots is outside their domain, they still find it infeasible to treat it as an English dialect. > French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it > spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not Note that Burns poetry as normally published is highly anglicised, partly for the English-speaking market, partly due to Burns and his predecessors emulating the diction of English poets. Scots speakers don't read it in the same way as an English speaker would read it. The versions presented on my website at http://scotstext.org/ are much improved, though still in a form liable to be read incorrectly by English speakers (time to buy Colin Wilson's book and learn the language properly!). Sandy Fleming http://scotstext.org/ -------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] At 00:37 28/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but >a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, >structure, and derivation In doing so, the philologist would be taking a different but equally political standpoint. One could equally well find English to be a form of Scots, which would be as much a political standpoint as the other two. A statement that "Scots and English are each a variation of the Anglo-Saxon/Norman-French creole" would at least be fairly neutral in the political sense. However the suggestion that "Scots is a form/dialect of English" arises from a posited anglocentric (i.e. politicised) world-view, which is really for its proponents to justify rather than being for others to refute. Colin Wilson. ---------- From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: >>Chris Ferguson wrote in his correction of my critique of earlier statements about the use of double negatives in the Scots dialect, that "Scots is not a dialect". The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands. Perhaps from a political standpoint, Scots is a separate language, but a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language, colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect. Take no offense at my reply, Chris, please. Harlan Ross May, Gulfport, Mississippi, USA<< *** Dear Harlan Ross May, >>The Oxford English Dictionary defines the word "Scots" as " A distinguishing epithet of a dilalect of English spoken in the Scottish Lowlands.<< Indeed the question whether Scots is a "dialect" or a "language" is political AND linguistc, and leads us to a very old discussion in linguistics (langue/parole). I think the terminology in this case is up to Scots people and Scots speakers themselves, and not to anyone else, or the Oxford dictionary for that matter. 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no question of it. A very strong point for the "language" term regarding Scots is the fact that it has a literary tradition of its own, both old and new, which differs significantly in use and form from other English dialect-writings. Oh, and many English and Scots speakers would find Scots differing in syntax, vocabulary, and structure. Comprehension is not a criterium for deciding whether confronted with language or dialect >>But a philologist would find it a form of English, in syntax, vocabulary, structure, and derivation as another variation of the Anglo-Saxon-Norman French language<< This may be a little nitpickety, but I object to the term regarding both Scots and English. It?s either Anglo-Saxon (I prefer Old English) or Norman French (Anglo-Norman). These were two separate languages spoken predominantly in England, and Scotland as well after the Norman Conquest. Despite the large portion of English lexical items borrowed from both Anglo Norman and Continental French these two above mentioned languages were never "fused" to form another from which both English and Scots would have been ultimately derived, as you suggested. It is true that Scots and English are derived from Old English (Anglo-Saxon), but whereas standard English was derived on an East Saxon base with plenty of Mercian admixture, Scots is derived from the Northumbrian dialects of Old English, thus is distinct from the time of the Anglo-Saxon settlement of Britain. >>colorful, poetical, and warm as it is. I love to hear it spoken, read it (if I could), and read it in Burn's poetry. I would not doubt that it is sprinkled graciously with many lovable expressions, that would only be understood by a speaker or scholar of the dialect<< I always find clich? descriptions such as "colorful", "warm", "lovable expressions" difficult, at best, when it comes down to comparing languages, or dialects. I can only apply these terms to certain speakers of a language. Since speakers of every Language have their very own way of expressing the world as they perceive it, these descriptions apply to any and all languages. This reminds be incredably of what I heard in the States so often when folks commented on my Englsih "Oh, your Briddish Acc?nt is so cute". Well, maybe it IS "cute", but only because it is perceived as such by some USAmericans. Canadians, Scotsmen, (and southerners, English I mean) already comment differently. My point is, it has always got to do with the point of view your coming from. Yours sincerely, Dan Oh, and a belated very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to come. Nadelek lowen ha bledhen noweth da re`gas bo ! ---------- From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] The Oxford English dictionary may say that - but that is a hang over to the Anglocentric system in the U.K. I have just looked up my Oxford English dictionary -and it says "the form of English used in Scotland". This is highly inaccurate ( I'm glad you pointed it out to me - I will bring it to the attention of Ishbel Mac Leod - editor of the Scots National Dictionary Association ). Scottish English is different to Scots. Scottish English is how we speak English - with our own pronunciation, idioms etc. Whereas Scots is a distinctive - though related - language to English -with it's separate history, grammar, pronunciation etc, etc. To say that Scots is just a dialect of English is a long seated fallacy - based on a system in the U.K that wanted to obliterate any separate identity that wasn't English. Scots is similar to English as they both derive from dialects of Old English -but from different dialects!!! Because we were separate nations our dialects were able to develop in their own directions. People who do not understand Scots, will hear Scottish people speaking Scottish English - mostly for the benefit of non Scots speakers around them - or because there is prejudice against Scots an the use of it identifies you as being "uncouth and uncultured"etc.- and think they are speaking Scots. It is historically or philologically as accurate and as fair to call English a dialect of Scots as Scots a dialect of English - using the criterion and the argument put forward for declaring Scots a dialect of English - because both of them are of them both being descendents of Old English. The major points to remember are: 1) Scots and English are descended of different dialects of Old English -it is possible that these were different dialects even before the Anglo Saxons first came to these Isles - and were still in the are of what is now north west Germany /East Netherlands / Southern Denmark - remembering that the Anglo Saxons came in two waves of the Angles and the Saxons. 2) Both languages had separate historical paths - each going their own separate ways. 3) Each had separate and distinctive influences on them ( part of point 2 above ). Just because two languages have a similar origin does not mean it is therefore justified to call on a dialect of the other -otherwise why don't we call Norwegian a dialect of Danish ( both of which are in fact closer to each other than Scots and English are to each other ), Frisian a dialect of Dutch - or Portuguese a dialect of Castilian Spanish - etc???? It should be pointed out that Scots is recognized as a distinct and separate language by the European Union - it is just some of the English ( and Scottish!! ) Establishment that has a problem with the point!!! I am sure there are other folk here better qualified than me to clarify this point for you but should you need any further information on the Scots language perhaps you could look at: Andy Eagle's excellent "Wir ain Leid" at: http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/ or the Scots language society's web site at: http://www.lallans.co.uk/ Yours Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Sandy wrote (above): > The problem is that while not willing to admit that Scots is outside > their domain, they still find it infeasible to treat it as an English > dialect. Colin wrote (above): > However the suggestion that "Scots is a form/dialect of English" arises > from a posited anglocentric (i.e. politicised) world-view, which is > really for its proponents to justify rather than being for others to > refute. Dan wrote (above): > A very strong point for the "language" term regarding Scots is the fact > that it has a literary tradition of its own, both old and new, which > differs significantly in use and form from other English > dialect-writings. Oh, and many English and Scots speakers would find > Scots differing in syntax, vocabulary, and structure. Comprehension is > not a criterium for deciding whether confronted with language or dialect Chris wrote (above): > 2) Both languages had separate historical paths - each going their own > separate ways. > > 3) Each had separate and distinctive influences on them ( part of point 2 > above ). These highlights, and pretty much everything else said above, incidentally apply to the case of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) as well -- substituting "English" with "German" (in the Netherlands with "Dutch") and "(Old) Northumbrian" with "Old Saxon". If what are now Northern Germany and the eastern provinces of the Netherlands had by a different turn of events ended up a separate country, *before* German/Dutch imposition, no one would nowadays question its status as a separate language. Chris further wrote : > It should be pointed out that Scots is recognized as a distinct and separate > language by the European Union - it is just some of the English ( and > Scottish!! ) Establishment that has a problem with the point!!! Again, this applies to LS. EU recognition alone is not the magic bullet. In fact, this political decision is considered a great inconvenience and threat to many who are in power, as well as to the many who find it difficult to deal with change or with questioning the status quo in general. The academic establishment is not going to change its texts overnight, keeps teaching the old German- and Dutch-centered dialectological schemes in relative ivory tower seclusion, while administrative officials do their parts in halting the development, usually by ignoring the new regulations under the pretext of insufficient resources. The Nederlandse Taalunie has already come out to say that recognizing Lowlands Saxon in the Netherlands was a grave mistake (namely an opening of the floodgates that pose a threat to the Dutch language) and that recognition of other regional languages (such as Zeelandic) should be denied. Dan further wrote: > I always find clich? descriptions such as "colorful", "warm", "lovable > expressions" difficult, at best, when it comes down to comparing > languages, or dialects. I completely concur. Even if not intended as such, many native speakers and others will find such descriptions patronizing, not only because of the inherent stereotyping but also because such descriptions more often than not go with or imply non-recognition of language status or imply inferior language status (e.g., "that cute little language of yours," as someone once referred to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) in my presence). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Dec 28 20:38:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 12:38:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.27 (04) [E/LS] To Mike Wintzer I think the attitude toward Plattdeutsch is illustrated by a young woman from Nuernberg, who stopped at our shop several months ago. I was online at the time and told her somewhat excitedly that I had found Plattdeutsche websites. She said "Plattdeutsch?", and walked away laughing. I think the attitude is that Plattdeutsch is only the language of dumme Bauern. Tom Byro -----Original Message----- My belated* thanks to you, Gabriele for your travel report. You wrote (a.o.): > If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough > money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... It?s not the money, it?s the political will. The undeclared goal is to snuff out the vernaculars, because they are viewed as a bother rather than a treasure. *health problems prevent me from following the LL-L postings systematically. Tsch?? to all, Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 04:08:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:08:44 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Brian A. Rolbiecki Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] I am hosting a Robert Burns Supper in Milwaukee WI I would like to know how a Scotsman would say Welcome! ---------- From: Richard Creel Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Help! Auxilio! Aiuto! Aux secours! I need information about Frisian and maybe also Zeelandic. Please answer somebody in Spanish or English, although I can deal with French and Italian also. Thanks, Richard Nash Creel gringudo at yahoo.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 04:24:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2002 20:24:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] > From: Sandy Fleming > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.27 (07) [E] > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. This is absolutely correct, but not quite to the point, I think. It should have been double bad: > 200 years ago many a NORWEGIAN person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. (Nowadays there are several.) Right on! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/english ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] Ladies and Gentlemen: I was highly gratified that my comments opened such a preponderance of opinion. I was soundly thrashed in a very gentle manner. But, most of the replies had political overtones because I stirred a long-smoldering fire in making this unconditional statement, that Scots is a dialect of English. It certainly does not have its roots in the Celtic tongues even though some of the syntactic structure might have been affected by a Brit or Scot's original Celtic usage. I am aware that Lowland Scots probably had a great influence on the form of Late Middle English or Modern English, that worked it's way into Scotland to replace the banned Gaelic (by whatever name, Goidelic, Cornish, Erse, or what have you). I would suppose that the many Welsh living in Northumbria had an effect on it also. Now, at this point, I am speaking in an historical manner, therefore political. As I stated before, my ancestors (paternal and maternal) originated in different parts of Scotland and Ireland (Ulster). So, I have reason to be proud of the Scottish people, and their massive contribution to the modern world, and I also realize that the Irish monks were responsible for saving most of civilization during the Dark Ages, by preserving and spreading Christianity, the arts and literacy (another thread). I am astounded that my statements about the warmth of Scots would be taken as patronizing. If that is so, Robert Burns, made a big mistake by writing the way he did. I am aware of the modern surge in Scottish nationalism and am proud of Scotland. I just hope their country doesn't sacrifice independence and freedom for some failed political cause. I have one branch of my family on the paternal side who descended from the Normans in England, but I always take the Celtic side. I am gratified by the history of the Scots, except for their waiting for more than fifteen-hundred years to unite into one people. The Celts of Europe waited too long, and now speak a latin language because of it. But that again is another thread. Please excuse me for digressing, but there are so many influences on language that one cannot discuss language without discussing history. [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Harlan Ross May wrote (above): > I am aware that Lowland Scots probably had a great influence on > the form of Late Middle English or Modern English, that worked it's way into > Scotland to replace the banned Gaelic (by whatever name, Goidelic, Cornish, > Erse, or what have you). Exactly when, where, by whom and under what circumstances was Gaelic banned? As far as I am informed, Goidelic is a Celtic language branch to which Irish, Gaelic and Manx belong, and Cornish is a Brythonic Celtic language used way down southwest in Cornwall. The Celtic languages that used to be spoken in various parts of Scotland were Pictish and Welsh. Gaelic was introduced to parts of Scotland from Ireland (hence "Erse" = "Irish") at roughly the same time Germanic varieties were introduced to other parts of Scots, and both these Irish-Scottish and Germanic (Northumbrian) Scottish varieties came to replace the earlier languages of the region. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 22:57:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 14:57:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.28 (02) [E] CORRECTION I mistakenly attributed the quote > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. to Sandy Fleming The real author was Dan Prohaska My apologies to you both and y'all. Ole Stig MY MSG SHOULD HAVE READ: > From: Dan Prohaska > 200 years ago many a Danish person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. Nowadays there is no > question of it. This is absolutely correct, but not quite to the point, I think. It should have been double bad: > 200 years ago many a NORWEGIAN person would have begged to differ at the > existence of a separate Norwegian language. (Nowadays there are several.) Right on! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk/english ---------- From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Ron asked when the Gaelic tongue was banned or outlawed. Between 1695 and about 1725, after the Jacobite uprising was put down by the English Government and the Clans loyal to England, it was outlawed and all schools that were erected thereafter sought to erase the tongue, and succeeded in most parts of Scotland except the highlands controlled by the MacDonalds, who were at times almost a country unto themselves. This could be why it is spoken in those same areas today. During much of that time George I was probably the English monarch. And I suppose that the language was outlawed because of the Jacobites, whom England and the Whig government did not want to see active again. Harlan Ross May ---------- From: Sandy Fleming Subject: "Frisians" Lowlanders, Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to have gone unrecorded? I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? Bede was the first person to translate the Bible into a form of English. Is it possible that Bede's translation was strongly influenced by Frisian and that subsequent English writings were strongly influenced by Bede's translation? (Actually, a certain member of the family is looking over my shoulder and strongly objecting to some of the assertions I'm making here, but anyway, though this isn't something I know much about, I thought it might be worthwhile to put the subject up for discussion amongst the more knowledgeable!) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] Ross May wrote: > As I stated before, my ancestors (paternal and > maternal) originated in different parts of Scotland and Ireland (Ulster). > So, I have reason to be proud of the Scottish people. Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes. Even if they happen to be related to me, I don't see how that would make me feel like I'm a better person by proxy. Everybody is responsible for their own actions, and if perhaps I had a great-grandfather who was considered a hero, that would be something for him to be proud of, not me. As a biologist, I fail to see how glory could be passed on genetically. Somebody (I think it was Sandy) raised the point that Scots is often confused with Scottish English. I think this is a very important distinction. Germany, for example, is a country which features many local language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're exposed to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's how they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions. I have lived in six different Bundesl?nder so far, from Lower Saxony to Bavaria, and I always found that the way the locals talked to me - which seemed to be a heavy dialect to the unsuspecting ear - was very different from the way they talked among themselves (which I could only listen to and understand with utmost concentration). I was also heavily surprised more than once when, during my college years, I would accompany a close friend home for a weekend with his or her parents, and suddenly find that they were virtually bilingual and that the "strong dialect" I had heard from them so far had actually been their best effort at "Oxford German". ;-) >From this experience, I suspect that, even in Britain, many people are not aware that the Scots language goes way beyond the "Scottish" voices they hear on TV. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.12.28 (05) [E] At 04:24 29/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > I was highly gratified that my comments opened such a >preponderance of opinion. I was soundly thrashed in a very gentle manner. >But, most of the replies had political overtones because I stirred a >long-smoldering fire in making this unconditional statement, that Scots is a >dialect of English. It certainly does not have its roots in the Celtic >tongues even though some of the syntactic structure might have been affected >by a Brit or Scot's original Celtic usage. It's common knowledge that Scots does not have its roots in the Celtic tongues. However, to argue that Scots is therefore "a dialect of English" is not only an inconclusive argument, but a complete non-sequitur. The earlier postings on this subject were intended for Harlan Ross May's enlightenment on that point, rather than as a "thrashing", and I suggest respectfully that he read them again. They may indeed have had political overtones, but so has his suggestion of Scots being "a dialect of English". Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Gabriele, you wrote (above): > Germany, for example, is a country which features many local > language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're exposed > to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's how > they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, > tinted with a certain accent and a sprinkling of unusual expressions. I don't understand why you needed to apologize to me, since what you said applies, quite factually, to "people" (which I understand as implying "in general," and which may or may not include you but apparently is meant to exclude me). I assume you implicitly included what some of us refer to as "Low(lands) Saxon." It is quite correct to say that probably the vast majority of Germans, including North Germans, still think of "Low German" as a German dialect group, most people of the Netherlands think of the Lowlands Saxon (_Nedersaksisch_) as dialects of Dutch, and certainly most Germans have never heard of the European Language Charter and its consequences, or buried reports went by them with all the other "irrelevant gobbledigook" in the media. The fact that LS and German descended from two quite different Germanic languages (Old Saxon and Old ("High") German respectively) is not exactly common knowledge in Germany (and has been traditionally glossed over in academic circles), and assumedly this is not an accident. As I said, EU recognition is not the magic bullet. It's still business as usual: schools are not changing their curricula accordingly, the popular media (which are the sole source of information for about 99% of the population) rarely mention "Platt" and then mostly as a "funny little dialect," and officialdom does it's part to ward off any "fallout" of the European Language Charter ratification promise. Most certainly, I cannot see even the slightest sign of any wholehearted effort to inform the public, and I suspect that the silent motto is "the less said the better." The ideal "one country, one ethnicity, one language" is old in Europe, and the perception that diversity that is more than skin-deep (i.e., goes beyond dialects) equals disunity or threatens national coherence still predominates. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:02:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:02:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.28 (04) [E] At 04:08 29/12/02, Brian A. Rolbiecki wrote: >I am hosting a Robert Burns Supper in Milwaukee WI >I would like to know how a Scotsman would say Welcome! The Scots pronunciation is with the first vowel shortened to a schwa (obscure vowel), here in the north-east at least. There are other things you might say depending on the situation. If you're inviting someone in from outside, you could say "come awa ben" (i.e. come on inside). "You're welcome" as a response to thanks can be expressed as "(it's) nae bather". Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:20:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:20:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > > Hi, Ole Stig, Lowlanders! > >> Why do some lgs (e.g. Lowlands) require a plural ending on the noun in > cases >> where the plurality is already given, say, by a number? This must >> surely > be >> unnecessary doubling, and is not used in logical lgs like Turkish ;-) > > The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double > plural > is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > > /S??(e)/ > _Sch?h_ ~ > _Sch?uh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this > is > true double pluralizing. Dear Ole and Ron, Hello again (been away for a week to see the snow in the Alps) In my V we still say shoe (or skoe) for one shoe, and shoen (or skoen or shoes) in plural. So it is really a double pluralizing. I wonder if kind-kinder-kinderen ( or kinders) is not another example. And also : rund-runder-runderen. In my V dictionary(De Bo) i found the same item: De s, teeken van't mv, hangt somwijlen aan -en, een ander teeken van 't mv. Dus: bard(=E plank)-barden-bardens bed-bedden-beddens hemd(=E shirt)-hemden-hemdens mes-messen-messens dilt (=E half)-dilten-diltens knie(= E knee)-knien-kniens- schoe-schoen-schoens kous(= E stocking)-kousen-kousens vest (=E fortress, D vesting)-vesten-vestens tee(= E toe)-teen-teens And there is also(amongst a lot of other words): bijkan (=E almost)-bijkans-bijkanst-bijkansten bin (=E while) bins-binst-binsten misschien(=E maybe)-misschiens-misschienst niever (=E nowhere)-nievers-nieverst nogtan(=E nevertheless)-nogtans-nogtanst-nogtansten schier (=E almost)-schiers-schierst-schiersten waneer (=E when)-waneers-waneerst-waneersten zeker(=E sure)-zekers-zekerst-zekersten But I think that this is a combination of plurals and strengthenings. greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.27 (08) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Morphology > The first example that came to mind as a possible case of true double > plural > is Dutch _schoen_ 'shoe' > _schoenen_ 'shoes'; cf. German _Schuh_ > > _Schuhe_, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) /Sou/ _Schoh_ ~ _Schauh_ > > /S??(e)/ > _Sch?h_ ~ > _Sch?uh_; cf. Scots _shae_ > _shuin_. However, I am not sure if this > is > true double pluralizing. > Hello Ron, Isn't this the same for double diminutives? In V, we have e kle?n huseke e kle?n vertellingske... It is used every day, also when we speak Dutch: een klein huisje een klein verhaaltje. We even say: e groat kindje!(=E a tall little child) Greetings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Morphology Hi, Luc! Thanks for the response, and good to see you got back home to the Lowlands safe and sound. Some of the double plurals occur in some Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects as well, such as _Kind_ 'child' > _Kinner_ ~ _Kinners_, also in Missingsch (German dialects on LS substrates): _Kind_ 'child' > _Kinner_ 'children' > _Kinners_ 'Kids!' (vocative). As for double diminutives, this occurs less frequently in most modern Northern LS dialects of Germany, because diminutive forms are used much less there than in most German dialects and certainly far less than in Low Frankish varieties. Looking at your examples, I wonder if you could argue that for instance _kind_ and (originally diminutive) _kindje_ aren't lexicialized separately. The fact that you can say both _e kle?n kindje_ ("a small/little kiddie") and _e groat kindje_ ("a big/tall kiddie") seems to point in that direction. Cannot _kindje_ also denote an adult as seen by a parent or by another elder, used as a term of endearment where physical size is not relevant? In that case _e kle?n kindje_ may no longer be a case of genuine double diminutive. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Dec 29 23:22:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 15:22:38 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (04) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.12.28 (01) [E] Richard Nash Creel wrote: >> I need information about Frisian and maybe also Zeelandic.<< Dear Richard, I`d be glad to help you with Frisian. As you mentioned Zeelandic I reckon you`re more interested in the Westfrisian variety. However I`m afraid I know more about the Frisian dialects spoken in Germany. This already shows the dilemma to the beginner of Frisian as there are very many different "Frisians": !) West Frisian in the Dutch province of Fryskl?n/Friesland, spoken by about 400 000 Frisians who are mostly bilingual with Dutch. The provincial borders do not exactly coincide with the language border. Traditionally Frisian is not spoken in It Bilt/Het Bildt, a part of the coast which was claimed from the sea in the 16-17 centuries and settled by Dutch speakers, as well as Stellingwerven (where to my knowledge North Saxon dialects are spoken). The Frisian language nowadays is confined to the rural areas whereas in the Frisian towns varieties are spoken, with which it is not always clear to state whether they are Frisian dialects heavily influenced by Duch or Dutch dialects heavily influenced by Frisian. These Town-Dialects are called Stedfrysk (Ljowert/Leeuwarden; Snits/Sneek; Frjentjer; Franeker; Boalsert /Bolsward); Harns/Harlingen; Starum/Staveren). West Frisian is also spoken on the islands of Skierm?nseach and Hylpen. West Frisian is dialectally more homogeneous than North Frisian, however following dialectal divisions can be heard: a) Klaaifrysk (West), b) W?ldfrysk (East); c) S?dwesthoeksk (South-west) as well as the island dialects d) Skierm?ntseachsk, e) dialects of Skylge: e1) Aasters, e2) Westers. 2) East Frisian: Careful not to confuse this with the East Frisian dialects of Northn Saxon spoken traditionally today: The Frisian of East Frisian survives only in its colonial dialect in the moors of Saterland. This variety is called Seeltersk (Saterfriesisch). The east Frisian dialect of Wangerooge died out around the turn of the last century. The Frisian dialects were replaced by North Saxon throughout the rest of Eeast Frisia. The term for the language, East Frisian, remaind and continued to be used for the Frisian influenced North Saxon dialects, which are today under strong pressure from High German (standard German). Saterland Frisian as the sole survivor or East Frisian proper is spoken in the three villages of the Saterland: Sch?ddel (Scharrel); Strukelje (Str?cklingen) and Roomelse (Ramsloh) where there are some 1000-2000 speakers of Seeltersk. There are even minute dialectal differences between the villages. 3) North Frisian is spoken in the administrative district of Nordfriesland in the German Bundesland of Schleswig-Holstein; the number of speakers is estimated around 10 000 (of about 60 000 who claim Frisian heritage). Dialectal diversity is enormous in North Frisian. There are two main dialectal divisions a) Island Frisian; and b) Mainland Frisian: a) Island Frisian, the dialects of a1) S?l (Sylt), a2) Feer (F?hr) and a3) Oomram (Amrum), The latter two are more closely related, and a4) Heligoland; b) Mainland Frisian (from North to South): b1) Wiedingharde; b2) B?kingharde; b3) West Mooring; b4) East Mooring; b5) Karrharde; b6) North Goesharde; b7) Middle Goesharde; b8) South Goesharde (moribund); b9) the Halligen; These dialects are so different from eachother that comprehension difficulties may arise, although on "interfrisian get-togethers" speakers are encouraged to speak Frisian in order to increase exposure to the unknown neighbouring variety. This inability to communicate in Frisian beyond the parish boundary is linguistic only to a certain extent. The main reason for this was that Frisian was traditionally only used within the parish. All external business was done either through Low Saxon or Danish. Even today many North Frisians are trilingual (Frisian, Low saxon, High German) or even quadtrilingual (afore mentioned + Danish). The whole area is polyglott. Some lexical examples: English West Frisian East Frisian North Frisian Seeltersk Mooring Fering (F?hr) eel iel ?il ?il ial old ?ld oold ??lj ual arm earm ??rm ?rm iarem to bite bite biete bite bitj to bleed bliede bl?ide bl?dje bled to thank tankje tonkje tunke toonke village doarp t??rp toorp taarep own eigen oain ?in aanj iron izer ierzen joorn iisen to eat ite iete ??se iidj to fall falle fale f?le faal foot foet fout f?tj fut feet fuotten f?ite f?tj fet grass g?rs g??rs gjars g?rs to hear hearre here hiire hiar cheese tsiies s?es s?is sees church tsjerke s??rke sch?rk sark day dei dai d?i dai days dagen dege deege daar to forget ferjitte ferjete ferjeese ferjid to know witte wiete waase wed (I) know wit weet wiitj witj two twa tw?in/two tw??r/tuu tau I hope this little introduction was helpful. If you have any more questions just fire away. For more information try the links on the LL-L website. Yehes da lemmyn ha woja hemma ynwedh, *** Here a question I posted some weeks ago, which was never answered concerning the relationship between Old Frisian and Old Saxon, as well as Old Frisian developments, Since my last posting was in Englisch and remained ananswered I`ll ty in German. Ron ??? Zum Altfriesischen (AF): Mir ist aufgefallen, dass in der Entwickling von Nordwestgermanischen (NWG) zum AF der Zwielaut /ai/ eine Phonemspaltung erfahren hat (i-Umlaut nicht migerechnet) und den AF Reflex /?/ (st?n, b?n stc.) oder /?/ (m?ra, r?p) aufweist. Die Monophthongierung zu /?/ ist mir relativ klar. Jene zu /?/ jedoch weniger: Unter welchen Voraussetzungen wurde NWG */ai/ zu AF /?/ ? Ich habe gelesen, dass die lexikalische Distribution im ganzen friesischsprachigen Raum gleich ist, also, dass die Phonemspaltung Gemeinfriesisch ist. War das vor-AF Verh?ltnis zwischen /?/ und /?/ ein Allophonisches, wie Altenglisch (AE) / AF kurzes NWG */a/ zu tonerh?htem /?/ bzw. /e/ ? Und ist es vielleicht analog zum Kurzvokal zu einem Ausgleich gekommen, der phonemisiert wurde? Wie verhielt sich dieses AF /?/ (> */ai/) zum Produkt AF /?/ aus der Monophthongierung von NWG */au/ ? Sind die Laute im ganzen friesischsprachigen Raum zusammengefallen? Zum Niederdeutschen: Um den ingvaeonischeren Charakter des Altniederdeutschen (AND) der vorliterarischen Zeit, gegen?ber dem ?berlieferten Alts?chsischen, wei? ich. Mir ist jedoch aufgefallen, dass die modernen ?stlich westph?lischen (O-Wph) und ostph?lischen (Oph) Dialekte ebenfalls eine Phonemspaltung von AND /?2/ (> NWG */ai/) aufweisen. Meine Frage daher: Kennt ihr vielleicht die lexikalische Distribution dieser Spaltung, und wisst ihr ob sich diese mit jener des Friesischen deckt? Ist sie vermutlicherweise in der gleichen Zeit entstanden, oder handelt es sich um eine j?ngere Entwicklung? Ich kenne keine Wortbeispiele, nur dass AND */?2a/ im O-Wph & SW-Oph zu /EI/ und AND * /?2b/ zu /aI/ wurde; w?hrend die Realisierung der Laute im N-Oph jeweils /EI/ und /e:/ ist und im zentralen Oph. respektive /aI/ und /e:/ (laut Ross.). Ich wei?, dass die textuelle ?berlieferung in der betreffenden Zeit mager bis nicht existent ist, aber vielleicht k?nnt ihr mir ja trotzdem weiterhelfen. Gr??e, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 01:21:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 17:21:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I wrote: > The > ideal "one country, one ethnicity, one language" is old in Europe, and the > perception that diversity that is more than skin-deep (i.e., goes beyond > dialects) equals disunity or threatens national coherence still > predominates. Sorry. I meant to write "national cohesion" rather than "national coherence." (A Freudian slip?:) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 19:32:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 11:32:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Madam Gabrielle wrote the following in response to my saying that I am proud of my ancestors: "Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes. Even if they happen to be related to me, I don't see how that would make me feel like I'm a better person by proxy. Everybody is responsible for their own actions, and if perhaps I had a great-grandfather who was considered a hero, that would be something for him to be proud of, not me. As a biologist, I fail to see how glory could be passed on genetically." I can understand why this concept would be difficult for some to understand, and one has my deepest sympathy. Perhaps it is genetic, but as a biologist, you would be obligated to say that attitudes cannot be handed down through generations. As a philosopher, I would say that it can and has. To look with pride upon one's own personal accomplishments is gross pretentionsness. But the pride of a people is something greater than self. However, Robert Frost, the American poet, said it best: " Nothing to look backward with pride, and nothing to look forward to with hope" (in "Home Burial") I would feel empty if I couldn't look backwards to the accomplishments of others with pride, nor foward to the accomplishments of a nation with hope. Proud I remain, and with pride I look forward. That is why one defends his heritage to the last drop of blood. The Scots had it, and thank God they did. They didn't get that pride "by proxy". But then, again, that is why some nations can never rise above their own passiveness. They are satisfied with mediocrity, and lack that indefinable feeling called, for lack of a better name, "pride". If you can't conceive it, you can't really understand it. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] I wrote: > Germany, for example, is a country which features many local > language varieties, and people from other areas often think they're > exposed > to the local "dialect" (forgive me, Ron, if I simplify here, but that's > how > they see it) when all they hear is what the locals consider High German, Ron replied: > I don't understand why you needed to apologize to me, since what you said > applies, quite factually, to "people" (which I understand as implying "in > general," and which may or may not include you but apparently is meant to > exclude me). No, of course not, please don't feel excluded. I merely apologized for the use of the word "dialect" which got me in serious trouble before. I just meant that that's the word most people would choose, be it correct or not. I suppose that one strong influence which helped to label Lower Saxon as "cute", or "a funny little dialect" is the famous Ohnsorg-Theater in Hamburg. Their plays are often broadcast on TV, and they are always comedies. Also, they are performed in "Missingsch", a watered-down version of Lower Saxon which can easily be understood by any High German speaker, leading them to believe that this is truly "Platt". Also, of course, poems written in Platt are often humorous (just think of Fritz Reuter and Wilhelm Busch), giving a further impression of "cute". Speaking of Wilhelm Busch - I have translated some of his poems into English and hope to do more some day. For a sample, have a look at http://www.rivertext.com/busch.shtml. Gabriele Kahn --------- From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] > From: Sandy Fleming > Subject: "Frisians" > > Lowlanders, > > Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English > language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to > have gone unrecorded? This has a simple explanation: the Anglo-Saxon tribes came from the mainland, where they were neighbours of the Frisians. In fact, many authorities believe some Frisians went along with them when these tribes migrated from the mainland, as they might have passed through Frisian territory. And afterwards, the Frisians kept contact with the Germanic tribes in England due to their extensive trading with Great Brittain (and Scandinavia). Even before the migration, the Germanic tribes (Frisians, Saxons and Angles, mostly) along the North Sea coast (and what is now called "Waadsee" in WF, or "Wattensee" (I believe) in G.) developed some common traits that separated them from the other tribes. It is these traits that are known as "Ingvaeonic" : well-known ones are palatalisation phenomena, like k > ts, g > j (before or after front vowels), a> e, ? > ?; and monophtongisation of old ai and au (in more contexts than eg in Old Franconian and Old German), loss of n/m before the fricatives th,s and f, and morhological ones as losing the 3rd/4th case distinction in pronouns, plus a tendency for so-called h-pronouns (like he/him, Old-Frisian hia/hiu etc.), plus some typical words or words in typical meanings (like key(E)/kaai(WF) vs. sleutel (D)) The mainland tribes took these traits with them, and they were preserved in their relative isolation, while some of the tribes they still traded with still had them, so this must have also worked well for keeping these features. In the time of Old-English, Old-Frisian was probably (together with "conservative" (i.e. Ingvaeonic, in this case) Old-Saxon) the easiest Germanic variety to understand. The Frisians are later converted to Christianity by missionaries speaking Old-English in some variety... > I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm > mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain > mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only > other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members > of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts > (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). > > Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? Bede was > the first person to translate the Bible into a form of English. Is it > possible that Bede's translation was strongly influenced by Frisian > and that subsequent English writings were strongly influenced by > Bede's translation? > Mm, I think names do not say much here. The old Germanic tribes basically had the same names in small variations in those days. So the fact that it is found in Frisian sources shows it was a Germanic name, and could have appeared in other tongues as well. And Beda/Bede has little to show for being typically Ingvaeonic, unless it derives from *Bada, of course, but then Old-english would have spelled it "ae" not "e", in most writing traditions (not Kentish, I believe). No, Frisian and Saxon varieties were close from the start, and preserved that (which for Frisian was quite an achievement; Saxon lost most of its typical Ingvaeonic features, while preserving some of them, like monophtongisation and words like "fi^f" and "us" (for "uns", but I believe only in some dialects, not all), and also some of the morphological features (which are more deeply embedded in grammar and harder to get rid of, see Town Frisian and other mixed languages). > (Actually, a certain member of the family is looking over my shoulder > and strongly objecting to some of the assertions I'm making here, > but anyway, though this isn't something I know much about, I thought > it might be worthwhile to put the subject up for discussion amongst > the more knowledgeable!) > > Sandy > http://scotstext.org/ Henno Brandsma ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] At 22:57 29/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: >Ron asked when the Gaelic tongue was banned or outlawed. Between 1695 and >about 1725, after the Jacobite uprising was put down by the English >Government and the Clans loyal to England, it was outlawed and all schools >that were erected thereafter sought to erase the tongue, and succeeded in >most parts of Scotland except the highlands controlled by the MacDonalds, >who were at times almost a country unto themselves. It's common knowledge that, for a very long time, Gaelic and its speakers were oppressed and discriminated against. However, the words "banned" and "outlawed" imply more than that - they imply that merely using (speaking or writing) Gaelic was actually a *criminal act*, for which one could be tried in court and sentenced if found guilty. May we please have a reference to the statute that brought about this situation, and its year? Colin Wilson. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Sandy Fleming wrote: >>Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to have gone unrecorded? I was recently thinking about the Venerable Bede, and while I'm mostly ignorant about his life, I do remember that there's a certain mystery about where his name came from. As I recall, the only other known "Beda" was named on a stone column listing members of a Frisian regiment that came over to help hold back the Picts (or something - like I said, this is not my subject). Is it possible that Bede himself was of Frisian descent? << Lowena dhys, Sandy, Interesting theory. And why would a family member of yours object to it??? A Professor at Uni years ago asked in a lecture who the Germanic peoples were who settled in Britain ca.AD 450 and the Angles and Saxons and Jutes were recalled instantly. But then he asked who knew of another Germanic tribe most probably involved, but hardly mentioned, and cocky little me said "The Frisians". So there does seem to be a general agreement on the fact that the Frisians were involved in the settlement. Several placenames also point to this, however they are not numerous. Also judging from place names we can see that it is quite impossible to locate specific areas certain tribes came from. There is correlation to a certain extent but looking at the map one can see that place names and their formatives are found throughout northern and surprisingly enough, western central Germany, the Netherlands and north western Belgium. Jutland is not even represented too much, but this can be owing to the fact that Jutish names may have been replaced by later Danish settlers. So it is difficult to believe that Frisians were not involved in the settlement. My own theory is, (well it`s not my own, but I`ve read similar theories along the same lines, and sort of picked the best bits out) that the number three had some sort of significance in Germanic/Christian/mediaeval history, so three tribes on three ships is something that sounds great in a mediaeval history account. Many of these accounts though factual in their base, cannot be taken at face value. I would say there were many more tribes involved in the settlement - even Swabians for example, who lived futher north around 400, so some went to Britain and others went to South-Western Germany and took their respactive place-names with them. It is quite possible that Bede was of Frisian descent, but was he aware of it himself? I don`t think ethnicity was so important once settlement had taken place, and emphasis had changed to controlling, conquering and intermarrying with the local population, i.e. British/Welsh. Bede is supposed to have lived from ?673-735 so he was English, the arrival of his ancestors lying back at least 150 years. Concerning the language situation: I do not believe in a period of Anglo-Frisian linguistic unity. The West Germanic dialects along the North Sea coast formed a continuum, tribal designations and their political connections loose and fluctuating. I`m sure their languages were mutually intelligible. I do not believe that the Anglo-Saxon tribes/kingdoms have direct continental correspondents that can be pinpointed as easily as: "the utes moved to Kent and the Angles moved from Angeln to the Humber area". I believe people from all these areas came to Britain and formed three initially separate areas in which their dialects were levelled. When these respective settlements expanded and joined the next settlement there was more levelling until an English dialect continuum was formed. Hence Bede`s theory of three tribes. It a simpler explanation for the historical fact of three settlement areas, and I`m afraid it does not have much to do with tribes. Large areas of Northern Germany is reported to have bee depopulated, which means that the old continental dialect continuum had broken apart. Tribes from further south were now moving northwards to take their setlements, sometimes habitation continuity broke off for more than a century. The inhabitants of the North Frisian isles seem to have taken part in the emigration wave (of course they weren?t Frisians at that time). There are also reports of areas being resettled by returnees. The Frisian language is a relic of this old North Sea Germanic dialect continuum. North Saxon and West Flemish developed closer to the language of the southern newcomers, but retained a North Sea Germanic substrate. English in its insular position also retained its North Sea Germanic character. Two and a half centuries later the Frisians settled in the North Frisian isles, and another three centuries later East Frisians were invited by a Danish king to settle and cultivate the North Frisian mainland. I believe many of the features inherent to North Sea Germanic caused both Frisian and Old English to undergo similar developments seperately. Patrik V.Stiles in his extremely interesting article "Remarks on the `Anglo-Frisian? Thesis", establishes a relative chronology for both Frisian and English (he explains this at length, but I will not go into that): "Relative Chronology for English: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /?/. (3) Monophthongization of */ai/ to long /?/. (4) Fronting of short */a/, including the development */au/ to /aeo/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Breaking (6) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (7) Palatal Diphthongisation. (8) i-mutation. Relative Chronology for Frisian: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /?/. (3) Monophthongization of +/ai/ and */au/. (4) Fronting of short */a/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (6) i-mutation. (7) Breaking." He writes further: "The Invaeonic Model and the Position of Old Saxon: Above, it has been established that English and Frisian shared relative chronology of sound-changes cannot be constructed with certainty beyond change (2). Changes (1), (1a) and (2) hardly suffice to establish an exclusive Anglo-Frisian sub-proto-language - all the more so, as these changes also form part of the relative chronology of Old Saxon. [.....] Indeed, one could make out a case for a closer genetic relationship between Frisian and (some varieties of) Old Saxon than between Frisian and English, in so far as parts of Old saxon can probably share the relative chronology (Frisian) up to at least point (4). [.......]" I will also quote his summary of results, as I concur with all of it: "In this article I have attempted to show that the evidence does not support the notion of an `original Anglo-Frisian unity? or sub-proto-language. This is bcause it is not possible to construct the exclusive common relative chronology that is necessary in order to be able to establish a node on a family tree. The term and concept of ?Anglo-Frisian? should be banished to the hitoriography of the subject. Rather, English and Frisian descended largely from adjacent dialect groupings in the Ingvaeonic continuum and thus share a number of exclusive isoglosses (as do in their turn English and Old saxon, and Frisian and Old saxon). It does appear to be the case that the isoglosses that are recoverable from that period justify our regarding English and Frisian as ?more closely related? to each other than to Low German. Because of the circumstances attending the attestation of Old saxon and Old Dutch - the relatively sparse documentation, possible orthographic complications, and the progressive retreat, already from prehistoric times, of ?Ingvaeonic? features in the favour of ?inland?ones - the state of affairs from the Old periods of the three languages onward is that English and Frisian show a high degree of resemblance to each other bcause of theirstatus as Invaeonic relic areas" Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ---------- From: pieter meester pieter.meester at hetnet.nl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.29 (01) [E] Beste allemaal Sandy Fleming wrote under more 2002-12-29: > Subject: "Frisians" > > Lowlanders, > > Some time ago a question was raised on the list: Why is the English > language so like Frisian, when Frisian presence in Britain seems to > have gone unrecorded? > Having done some little reseach recently, I would like to add some findings to Sandy Fleming's most interesting remarks about the influence of Frisian on English. I am also struck by the impression that there is quite some similairity between Frisian and English. Lately I have read a book written by the Dutch writer Theun de Vries, called "Het zwaard, de zee en het valse hart". He used historical figures to compose this roman, but I have reason to believe, it is partly also faction. He describes how a Frisian tribe led by 'dukes' Hengist and Horsa helped the English king Vortigern to beat the Pict and Scot in northern England at about 450. These Frisians however liked living at the other side of the North-Sea and occupied the soutwest of England, let's say Kent, and made Canterbury their capital city. They happely mixed with the locals and consequently you might expect there is reason to assume English is partly based on Frisian (perhaps even a Frisian dialect..., just kidding). Heaving read this book, I looked for historical information and found different sources, some stating Hengist and Horsa were Jutten (Danes) but others stating they are Frisians. (Most convicing was a comprehensive old Dutch text at http://home.planet.nl/~palst004/vanderAA/Friezen.html). (I won't raise the issue of the relation between Jutten and Frisisans, but I learned they, West Juts and Frisians do understand each other quite well). Is there someone who can contribute to the theory that Frisian is a major source for modern English, or just can falsify this? Also Sandy's question about the origin of Beda Venerabilis is of great interest to me. Pieter Meester pieter.meester at hetnet.nl ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks to Sandy for revisiting one of my favorite "mystery" topic of why English and Scots are so closely related to Frisian when Frisians are hardly ever mentioned in the history of Germanic settlement of Britain. Thanks also for the many interesting responses (above). Henno's account makes a lot of sense: contacts between Frisians and the Jutish, Anglish and Saxon migrants from what are now Southern Denmark and Northern Germany, plus sustained trading contacts between Friesland and the British Isles -- nothing so "spectacular" as to be recorded as notable historical events. However, I still wonder if such relatively loose contacts would suffice to account for the close relationship between Frisian on the one hand and English and Scots on the other hand. I remain reluctant to let go of my "wild hypothesis," or "hunch," that the contacts were closer, more intimate than that, namely that among the migrants dwelling *among* Frisians en route to Britain there was a preponderance of males (such as non-first sons in search of new land to own), and they stayed in Friesland long enough to develop relationships with Frisian females and took them with them across the Channel -- namely that Old Frisian influenced the early development of Old English as a maternal language. Is there anything that might support this "guess"? Gabriele (with one "L") wrote (above): > I suppose that one strong influence which helped to label Lower Saxon as > "cute", or "a funny little dialect" is the famous Ohnsorg-Theater in > Hamburg. Their plays are often broadcast on TV, and they are always > comedies. Also, they are performed in "Missingsch", a watered-down version > of Lower Saxon which can easily be understood by any High German speaker, > leading them to believe that this is truly "Platt". The use of German with a "Platt" twist was reserved for *national* broadcast in a series of "folk theater" performances (including Rhenish and Bavarians plays). It ought to be stressed that the Ohnsorg Theater usually performs in genuine Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and had to rewrite/translate the scripts specifically for those national broadcasts. This was not the only thing that angered lots of North Germans (many of whom complained that Bavarian broadcasts never used watered-down Bavarian). Much worse was the fact that there was no disclaimer, no announcement to say that these were *translated* versions. In other words, it might be characterized as willful deception. (This would be similar to selling Scottish English with a sprinkling of well-known Scots words and expressions as "Scots" without an explanation, thus reinforcing the popular myth that Scots is an English dialect group.) For most South Germans that was the only exposure to what they thought was "Platt" (Lowlands Saxon); they had "bought" the deception. As I related at least once before, South Germans once told me that they loved listening to "Platt" and asked me to give them a real-life demonstration; they were quite indignant when they didn't understand anything I said ("Not like that! Like Ohnsorg!") and dismissed it as "some sort of Dutch" when I wrote it down ... Yes, the predominance of humorous and old-time romance in Lowlands Saxon literature certainly contributes to the perception of the language as "cute" and "funny" in a "folksy" and "country" way. In my opinion, another reason for this "cute" perception of "Platt" even among North Germans (who more or less understand it but cannot speak or write it themselves) has something to do with the attitude that LS is not a separate language and that using the language is tantamount to getting away with "talkin' rough" in public, relating LS words with their German cognates because of insufficient understanding of the language in its own right. Sometime ago a friend wrote telling me that he loved to listen to the LS news and weather reports on his way to work, because it helps him "start the day with a good laugh or too," such as _Tja, L??d?, vunwegen dat Smuddelwedder na?n Snee is dat h??t morgen man bloots Modder un Schiet up de Straten_ ("Well, folks, due to this morning's drizzle after a period of snow it's nothing but mud and dirt on the roads."). From a "High" German point of view, this sounds very "earthy": the seemingly informal tone together with the use of _Schiet_ (= German _Schei?e_ 'shit') which in LS can be used to denote 'dirt', 'mess' or 'bad situation' without sounding coarse and offensive. This perception of "cutely naughty" is thus totally German-centered. > Speaking of Wilhelm Busch - I have translated some of his poems into English > and hope to do more some day. For a sample, have a look at > http://www.rivertext.com/busch.shtml. Nice translations! But I have always thought of Wilhelm Busch as a German writer, albeit a Northerner, rather than a LS writer. What works of his are in LS? The only one I am aware of is _Ut ?ler Welt_ (Munich: Lothar Joachim, 1910), and that appears to be a collection of (handed-down, recorded?) tales. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 20:04:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:04:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: Happy New Year in Lowlands Languages/Countries Dear Ron and Lowlanders, My greetings and best wishes for a happy 2003. I would like to learn how to wish a Happy New Year on all the Lowlands languages as well as knowing if there are any popular songs (or anything else, besides partying) to celebrate the coming year on the Lowlands countries/languages. (i.e. - in Brazil, people sing a song called ''Adeus Ano Velho, Feliz Ano Novo'', which means ''Goodbye Old Year, Happy New Year'') By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) Best wishes, Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Santos, Brazil ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Oi, Reynaldo! > By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) How to say "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!" in the Lowlands varieties has come up several times before. I just took a peek at our archive and list below what we have so far (without the merry Christmas part): Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! English: Happy New Year! Frisian, East (Saterland): Gl?cksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluks?ls N?ijier! Frisian, North (Feerings, F?hr): Fr??lig neijuar! Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Lowlands Saxon (Eastern Friesland): Gl?ckelke Nejen Jahr! Lowlands Saxon (Northern): 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! ~ 'n Mooi(et) Nijaar! Lowlands Saxon (Mennonite): Een jlekjeljet Niejoah! Lowlands Saxon (Westphalian): Kommt gued in't Niejaohr! Scots: A guid New Year! Of course, this leaves many other varieties to be added. The now virtually international New Year's song is a Scots one, usually sung horribly mispronounced. You can find it here along with Sandy Flemings phonetic transcription and my (singable) Lowlands Saxon (Low German) translation (also with a phonetic transcription): http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/auld_lang_syne.htm Abra?os, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Dec 30 20:18:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 12:18:03 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.30 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.12.29 (02) [E] But surely Colin -"come away ben" - is only used when inviting someone into your house - at least that is how we would use it in Edinburgh. I don't know of a more general Scots equivalent for welcome when used in the situation of greeting people to an occasion - A'll hae tae awae an think on yon!! Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Expressions By the way, this _ben_ 'inside' in the said Scots expression sounds quite familiar to speakers of Lowlands Saxon (Low German). LS for 'inside' is _binnen_ [bIn(:)]. We could say something like _Kaam (man) na binnen!_ (or _Kaam (man) rin!_) to ask someone to enter. Movement calls for _na_ 'to(ward)', while _binnen_ alone denotes location (e.g., _He is binnen_ 'He is inside'). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:10:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:10:06 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (04) [E/L] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl Subject: Holidays Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! English: Happy New Year! Frisian, East (Saterland): Gl?cksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluks?ls N?ijier! Frisian, North (Feerings, F?hr): Fr??lig neijuar! Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Lowlands Saxon (Eastern Friesland): Gl?ckelke Nejen Jahr! Lowlands Saxon (Northern): 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! ~ 'n Mooi(et) Nijaar! Lowlands Saxon (Mennonite): Een jlekjeljet Niejoah! Lowlands Saxon (Westphalian): Kommt gued in't Niejaohr! Scots: A guid New Year! Limburgish: e good nujaor! en det wunsj ich uch den ouch alleneij hiel gaer tow... Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:12:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:12:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.30 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Gabrielle wrote: "Now, this is a concept I have great difficulties with, since, on the few occasions where I am truly "proud" of a person or a people on the whole, this is about their very own general achievements and (peaceful) attitudes.>> Harlan Ross May responded: >>To look with pride upon one's own personal accomplishments is gross pretentionsness. But the pride of a people is something greater than self.<< Lowena dheugh why oll, I concur with Gabriele here. Pride in one`s own achievment has absolutly nothing to do with gross pretentiousness. Pride does not necessarily mean boasting. One can feel ties or links to one`s descent, but pride - I don`t know - feels kind of weird to me. I keep seeing people waving flags about singing patriotic songs and following THE STRONG MAN. I can not feel proud of the blood that my ancestors shed. It?s just another painful war in history. I know what I?m talking about. My mixed heritage grants me the possibility to look at the greater picture from all sides. My Irish and Jewish background, need I say more. Uncles fighting in WWII on opposing sides etc. blood, blood, misery, destruction, proverty, starvation, fear. There?s no room for pride there I?m very sorry. Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 00:44:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:44:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (06) [E/LS/Cornish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] R. F. Hahn wrote: >> I remain reluctant to let go of my "wild hypothesis," or "hunch," that the contacts were closer, more intimate than that, namely that among the migrants dwelling *among* Frisians en route to Britain there was a preponderance of males (such as non-first sons in search of new land to own), and they stayed in Friesland long enough to develop relationships with Frisian females and took them with them across the Channel -- namely that Old Frisian influenced the early development of Old English as a maternal language. Is there anything that might support this "guess"? Reinhard/Ron<< Ron Wheg, Although I usually like "wild" and have a weak spot for radical theories, I don`t think your hypothesis fits. I haven`t read or heard anything pertaining to this idea. I`d call it a nice bedtime-story. The similarities between Old Frisian (which is attested quite a bit later, and actually corresponds with Early Middle English) and English seem to be old and very unlike the result of influence from one variety. They are the consequence of similar phonological changes in closely related dialects/languages. In many respects, unlike their similar outcome, they work quite differently. As pointed out in my previous post, functional changes seem closer to some Old Saxon dialects than to English (I say English here and not Scots, because Germanic speaking Scots still called their language Inglis right into the later Middle Ages, which does not mean it wasn`t Scots. It was Northumbrian on both sides of the Scottish/English border). I shall submit the posting again, maybe for a closer read: Concerning the language situation: I do not believe in a period of Anglo-Frisian linguistic unity. The West Germanic dialects along the North Sea coast formed a continuum, tribal designations and their political connections loose and fluctuating. I`m sure their languages were mutually intelligible. I do not believe that the Anglo-Saxon tribes/kingdoms have direct continental correspondents that can be pinpointed as easily as: "the utes moved to Kent and the Angles moved from Angeln to the Humber area". I believe people from all these areas came to Britain and formed three initially separate areas in which their dialects were levelled. When these respective settlements expanded and joined the next settlement there was more levelling until an English dialect continuum was formed. Hence Bede`s theory of three tribes. It a simpler explanation for the historical fact of three settlement areas, and I`m afraid it does not have much to do with tribes. Large areas of Northern Germany is reported to have bee depopulated, which means that the old continental dialect continuum had broken apart. Tribes from further south were now moving northwards to take their setlements, sometimes habitation continuity broke off for more than a century. The inhabitants of the North Frisian isles seem to have taken part in the emigration wave (of course they weren?t Frisians at that time). There are also reports of areas being resettled by returnees. The Frisian language is a relic of this old North Sea Germanic dialect continuum. North Saxon and West Flemish developed closer to the language of the southern newcomers, but retained a North Sea Germanic substrate. English in its insular position also retained its North Sea Germanic character. Two and a half centuries later the Frisians settled in the North Frisian isles, and another three centuries later East Frisians were invited by a Danish king to settle and cultivate the North Frisian mainland. I believe many of the features inherent to North Sea Germanic caused both Frisian and Old English to undergo similar developments seperately. Patrik V.Stiles in his extremely interesting article "Remarks on the `Anglo-Frisian? Thesis", establishes a relative chronology for both Frisian and English (he explains this at length, but I will not go into that): "Relative Chronology for English: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /?/. (3) Monophthongization of */ai/ to long /?/. (4) Fronting of short */a/, including the development */au/ to /aeo/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Breaking (6) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (7) Palatal Diphthongisation. (8) i-mutation. Relative Chronology for Frisian: (1) Long and short /a/ develop a back timbre and nasalization before nasals. Before change (2), otherwise we would expect them to be fronted by it. (a) Some time thereafter the sequence short vowel + nasal + homorganic spirant yields long nasalized vowel + homorganic spirant. (b) The development of the uniform plural probably follows (a), and is to be but early for reasons of linguistic geography. (2) Fronting of long /?/. (3) Monophthongization of +/ai/ and */au/. (4) Fronting of short */a/. (a) Short /a/ (only) was also fronted in unaccented syllables. This left the way clear for unaccented /o/ to unround to /a/. (5) Palatalization. After fronting of both long and short /a/ to /ae/, because palatalization takes place before the reflexes. Before i- mutation (or at least the unrounding of i-mutation products). (6) i-mutation. (7) Breaking." He writes further: "The Invaeonic Model and the Position of Old Saxon: Above, it has been established that English and Frisian shared relative chronology of sound-changes cannot be constructed with certainty beyond change (2). Changes (1), (1a) and (2) hardly suffice to establish an exclusive Anglo-Frisian sub-proto-language - all the more so, as these changes also form part of the relative chronology of Old Saxon. [.....] Indeed, one could make out a case for a closer genetic relationship between Frisian and (some varieties of) Old Saxon than between Frisian and English, in so far as parts of Old saxon can probably share the relative chronology (Frisian) up to at least point (4). [.......]" I will also quote his summary of results, as I concur with all of it: "In this article I have attempted to show that the evidence does not support the notion of an `original Anglo-Frisian unity? or sub-proto-language. This is bcause it is not possible to construct the exclusive common relative chronology that is necessary in order to be able to establish a node on a family tree. The term and concept of ?Anglo-Frisian? should be banished to the hitoriography of the subject. Rather, English and Frisian descended largely from adjacent dialect groupings in the Ingvaeonic continuum and thus share a number of exclusive isoglosses (as do in their turn English and Old saxon, and Frisian and Old saxon). It does appear to be the case that the isoglosses that are recoverable from that period justify our regarding English and Frisian as ?more closely related? to each other than to Low German. Because of the circumstances attending the attestation of Old saxon and Old Dutch - the relatively sparse documentation, possible orthographic complications, and the progressive retreat, already from prehistoric times, of ?Ingvaeonic? features in the favour of ?inland?ones - the state of affairs from the Old periods of the three languages onward is that English and Frisian show a high degree of resemblance to each other bcause of their status as Invaeonic relic areas" Gans oll ow holon vy, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Ea, Dan, coweth wheg! Dursona! Thanks a bunch for the very erudite and detailed response! I really appreciate the effort. I'll read it in greater detail later and will return to it at later times for reference. Yeah, sorry you had to burst my little "Frisian mameloshn" bubble ... :( So, another bedtime story goes down the tubes. But -- hey! -- we're here to learn, not to live in Lala-Land. The explanation that depopulation was involved (which I had known) and then repopulation from the south -- thus major shifts and mixing both on the British Isles and back on the continent, consequently mutual estrangement (even before Norman and German influences) -- makes a lot of sense, and it also explains many a discrepancy between Old Saxon and Middle Saxon (not to mention the modern dialects). Dan, what do you think of the theory of regarding German (including Alemannic, Yiddish, etc.) as belonging to a "South Germanic" branch, as has been suggested a few times? > Gans oll ow holon vy, Ja, as gans oll holen se mi faken ook. ;) (Please don't take this Saxon reaction as making fun of Cornish!) Gans oll an collon vy -- yehes ha sowena! (Hey! We speak slightly different dialects! ;) ) Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 01:26:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 17:26:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Glenn Simpson Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, Just to add the Northumbrian New Year greeting - 'Hev aa heppy new yeor', and 'Aal thi best'. best wishes, Glenn Simpson Northumbrian Language Society ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 15:39:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:39:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.30 (05) [E] Paul's reply supporting Gabrielle's remarks seemed to me to be an extension of the same attitude. The area of the United States from which I write has been called by some writers "The Celtic South", and with good reason. I suppose our attitudes in many things came with our ancestors, who were mostly Celts of one country or the other. I heard another writer say that a telephone directory in Mississippi reads like one in Belfast. (Scots-Irish, or "Scotch-Irish as it used to be called) Paul's split ancestry is not uncommon in the United States, nor is pride in the "Motherland" or the "Fatherland". I suppose that there are many in the world with an attitude similar to Paul and Gabrielle, and I say that that is your prerogative, and it fits in nicely with the "one world" philosophy. I will not mention that again, and will try to stick to factual, or things that I believe to be factual, about languages with which I am familiar and have studied. I am very interested in everything that is discussed on this site, and have learned a great deal the short time that I have been a subscriber. I will try to keep things on an impersonal basis. If I err, or make an equivocable statement, please reply to the message, but don't behead the messenger, and I will do the same. If my replies are colored by my conservatism, sobeit. But, I do not subscribe to the school of political correctness. If I use a term, such as, "uncivilized world", instead of the politically correct term,"developing world," please do not correct me. Political Correctness reminds me of a painted stage set, with a paper moon. Now to reply to the other criticism. The Act of 1695 by the English Parliament established English schools, for the express purpose of finally doing away with the "Irish" tongue as it was called. There were stiff penalties for not teaching English, and continuing to use and allow the "savage" language to be used. That is what the respected Scottish author, Fitzroy MacLean wrote in his book, "Scotland". He has been paraphrased by other respected authors. The next Parliamentary act disarmed the Scottish people (sound familiar?) to better control them, and some Scots actually stopped carrying weapons, but very few. The government of George the First didn't need law to act, anyway, as evidenced by the Massacre of Glencoe, an act to set an example to the rest of the Scots. Enough of this history. I will get kicked-off for digression. Sorry. I have another new comment that brings to mind a "language" mentioned in the heading, A-Appalachian. Now, I love to discuss that dialect, since it hits home with me. Harlan Ross May Gulfport, Mississippi, USA ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 15:42:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 07:42:43 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: rossmay Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (04) [E/L] Mathieu mentioned the language of the people from the Netherlands who were settled in South Africa. Is it a separate language or just a dialect unto itself? I notice that some of the spellings are different. Could the way that they speak the language be archaic or did the language or dialect change as language is prone to do? Ross May [Harlan Ross May] ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.30 (01) [E] Ross May wrote: > But then, again, that is why some nations can never rise above > their own passiveness. They are satisfied with mediocrity, and lack that > indefinable feeling called, for lack of a better name, "pride". If you > can't conceive it, you can't really understand it. Yes, I understand all too well, and that's why I'm restricting my answer to a sad little headshake. But, despite this attitude in many people, I, too, continue to hope. Ron, I'll try to dig deep (no time today, I'm afraid) to see whether Busch actually wrote anything completely in Platt. He did use it a lot of in direct speech; he would describe a situation in High German, and then have a (mostly rural) character say something in Platt. One example would be two lines preceding the ones I recently quoted as an example for a double negative: "Wat het he segt?!" So t?nt's im Chor - f?nf Besen heben sich empor. Another example would be the following passages from "Fips der Affe": Mit den Schreckensworten: "Da kummt de D?bel!" F?llt sie in einen dastehenden K?bel. Doch D?mmel schreit und kennt ihn gleich wieder: "Dat is de verdammtige Haaresnieder!" ... Sie alle machen gro?m?chtige Schritte, Und pl?tzlich ruft einer: "Kiek, kiek, da sitt'e!" Given the great popularity of Wilhelm Busch's works in Germany to this day, such lines sprinkled within the "understandable" text often constitute the first time many people are exposed to Lower Saxon "Platt". Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 16:03:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 08:03:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.12.31 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: ''Dinner For One'' in Lowlands Saxon Dear Lowlanders, I have just found out on a website (german.about.com) a link for the Lowlands Saxon version of ''Dinner For One'' - A British play that has become a tradition in the New Year's Eve in Germany - according to the website. *Maybe, our fellow Germans can confirm that (or not). Though, it's not a ''Lowlands'' subject, itself.* I, myself, enjoy reading the postings in Lowlands Saxon, even though, I cannot understand them very well, I can get along; depending on the spelling used. However, I have never had the chance to listen* to any dialogue so far, nor anything in Lowlands Saxon, which, disappoints me (or used to). The German radio station ''Radio Bremen'' is broadcasting online this Lowlands Saxon version and I thought that it could be of interest of many members. Abendeeten f?r een - http://www.radiobremen.de/online/abendeeten/ I hope you enjoy this link. The link is in German and there you can also find the script (which, I liked very much!) in Lowlands Saxon. (Lowlands Saxon = Low German = Plattdeutsch) Feliz Ano Novo! Happy New Year! Een Gelukkige Nieuwjaar! 'n Mooi(et) Niejahr! A guid New Year (cool!)! Best Regards, Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Santos, Brazil ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Reynaldo, Thanks for the resource tip! Yes, indeed, the English (British) play "Dinner for One" has become a New Year's Eve tradition in Germany, being shown in the original on television since the 1960s. The original play calls for two actors: an aged upper-class lady and her at least as aged and no longer agile butler. It has very little dialog (butler: "Same as last year, Ma'am?", lady: "Yes, James, same as last year."), and the rest relies on slapstick stunts (as the butler gets more and more drunk), which is why it has been shown untranslated and has always enjoyed much popularity, in part because most viewers are at least tipsy by the time it comes on. (I believe that enjoying it so much year after year *requires* you to be drunk.) So far I had only heard that there was a Lowlands Saxon version, and I thought there wasn't much to be translated, and much of the fun would be lost with the high-class English pronunciatio gonen. So I am greatful to you for pointing out the website, which gave me an opportunity to read the script and to listen to the sound file. I can report that it is only very, very loosely based on the original English play, even has a dog as the narrator, is really a new play with an entirely different tone and atmosphere, in large part because it has been made into a *radio* play (i.e., is minus the visual stunts), and it has been converted to follow the usual folk comedy tradition to which the language has been relegated. At any rate, it may be a useful resource for many of our subscribers, because they get to read the script while listening to the performance, a rare opportunity for many. Cheers, and happy New Year! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:24:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:24:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (04) [Ap/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (02) [E] 2 remarks: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Holidays > > Oi, Reynaldo! > > > By the way.. Happy New Year: ) Feliz Ano Novo! (Portuguese) > > How to say "Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!" in the Lowlands varieties > has come up several times before. I just took a peek at our archive and > list below what we have so far (without the merry Christmas part): > > Afrikaans: 'n Voorspoedige nuwe jaar! > Dutch: Gelukkig nieuwjaar! > English: Happy New Year! > Frisian, East (Saterland): Gl?cksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluks?ls N?ijier! I suppose the first is the Lowlands Saxon version as used in Saterland? The language is quite common there, even though the "original" language is Saterfrisian. The "johr" part gives it away (no palatal vowel). Also, n?i for new is correctly spelled (well, there are (unfortunately) more than spelling system for this lovely language (which they are very surprised about when anybody from outside their region, eg. me.., has bothered to learn, but they all agree on this..). Of course, Gluk- is a loan from Lowland Saxon, but the vowel (an [o]-like sound, somewhere between [u] and [o] actually) is not identical to the Lowlands Saxon, due to lack of i-mutation. It could they that it was borrowed from Saxon while Saterfrisian still lacked the phoneme "?", (it unrounded this sound before) and changed it to something close. Just wondering. > Frisian, North (Feerings, F?hr): Fr??lig neijuar! > Frisian, West (Westerlauwer): Lokkich Nijjier! Literally, this is true. But more common as a wish (in my family, but I've seen it on post cards as well): Folle lok en seine yn it nije jier! [aside: _folle_ for "much" in this context (no "implied negative", normally you'd say "in soad", "in protte" or such a word, but "net folle" IS correct) would be ungrammatical. But in this wish only it is used as such..] Henno Brandsma ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.30 (07) [E] Hey! Hae yuins a guid new year, an keep yuins wail. A'll be tae home this New Year's Day o th mornin, an a-kerryin out no ashes. The night afore'll be spent quiet-like, a-thankin on the year done gone. Gone years ago is any playparty er music makin fer thisun. The still o night's too precious tae waste! Hog jowl an greens an black-eye peas'll be et o th day, oer tae Mother's house. Hog jowls is fer health an greens an peas fer wealth, accordin tae them as is superstitious. They ere mighty guid, an wi cornbread er frybread either. An buttermilk. Aw at comes atter church, o course, hit bein eight days atter New Christmas. (w'Mebarekh `Idha Dagzurta!) Come go wi us! Yorn, +Fr Andreas Richard Turner. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Henno, you wrote above: > > Frisian, East (Saterland): Gl?cksengs Neijohr! ~ Gluks?ls N?ijier! > I suppose the first is the Lowlands Saxon version as used in Saterland? Now that you suggested it, I think you are write, although the source listed is as "Sater Frisian." I assume that _Gluks?ls N?ijier!_ is the actual Saterland East Frisian (Seeltersk) version. Father Andreas, great to "hear" from you again, especially in Appalachian! > The night afore'll > be spent quiet-like, a-thankin on the year done gone. Same here. > Hog jowl an greens an black-eye peas'll be et o th day, oer tae > Mother's house. Hog jowls is fer health an greens an peas fer wealth, > accordin tae them as is superstitious. They ere mighty guid, an wi > cornbread er frybread either. An buttermilk. Again similar here. In our ("proudly") mixed household, special days call for at least one dish as homage to each ingredient of this happy mixture. Tonight and tomorrow it'll be "(collard) greens and black-eye peas" (with smoked chops and smoked tofu instead of "hog jowls") and cornbread for the Euro-Indo-Afro-American South, potato salad and smoked wieners for Northern Germany, potato pancakes (_latkes_) for Eastern Europe (with apple sauce for Northern Germany and sour cream [_smetene_] for Jewish friendships), tabouleh and baba ghanouj for Arabic friendships, Lamingtons for Australia, and millet-and-buttermilk pudding in memory of my Sorbian "Oma". It's eclectic all right, but that's considered a good thing as well as perfectly American here. > Hae yuins a guid new year, an keep yuins wail. And you. Peace and respect to all! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:26:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:26:45 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: <> Dear Harlan Ross May, I`m no fan of bending-over-backwards-political-correctness either, but calling the developing world "uncivilized" was OK in the 19th century, but we are in the 21st today - and your statement is not politically-incorrect, it is an insult to the many culturs and civilisations in the developing world, and a downright provocation. Furthermore I do not understand what you mean by it. You don`t have to call it "developing world", but "uncivilized world" is wrong, and I will continue to correct expressions of this sort, without verbal hygene. Yours respectfully (still), Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:28:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:28:36 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] Harlan Ross May wrote: <> Dear Harlan Ross May, I`m no fan of bending-over-backwards-political-correctness either, but calling the developing world "uncivilized" was OK in the 19th century, but we are in the 21st today - and your statement is not politically-incorrect, it is an insult to the many culturs and civilisations in the developing world, and a downright provocation. Furthermore I do not understand what you mean by it. You don`t have to call it "developing world", but "uncivilized world" is wrong, and I will continue to correct expressions of this sort, without verbal hygene. Yours respectfully (still), Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 17:30:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 09:30:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.12.31 (02) [E] [Harlan Ross May] wrote: This variety is a separate language, it has undergone several changes since the settlement. It has its own literary language, and is one of the official languages of South Africa. It is called Afrikaans. Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 18:21:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:21:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativia" 2002.12.31 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativia Dear Lowlanders, This is my last administrative message for the year 2002. Since my last administrative message (December 27) we have been joined by people from the following places: Canada: Ontario: Toronto [1] Netherlands: ? [2] Slovakia: ? [1] Ukraine: Kyiv: Kyiv [1] United States of America: Ohio: Mansfield [1] North Olmsted [1] South Carolina: Easley [1] ? [1] A warm welcome to them all. I ask them and everyone else to be familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). One rule is not mentioned there, but it is important to mention it once in a while. This rule actually goes without saying, is a default rule on all discussion lists and in more "civilized" chatrooms: No flame-baiting! In electronic debate jargon, "flaming" denotes sending angry responses to a posting; "flame-baiting" denotes the act or habit of posting deliberately provocative messages, messages the sender intends to result in a barrage of "flaming" (out of which he or she gets some sort of kick, if for nothing else then the attention). Diversity of opinions and attitudes is normal and makes for interesting discussions. Flame-baiting, on the other hand, is a provocative and thus aggressive and disruptive act and will not be tolerated. A clear flame-baiting pattern will result in dismissal and barring without warning. (Yes, it *has* happened before, albeit rarely.) If you ever feel truly angered by a posting, my suggestion is to ask yourselves if you are being flame-baited (especially if there is such a pattern) and then to ignore that posting rather than send the desired angry knee-jerk reply, at least take some time to ponder it calmly before replying. Lack of attention tends to make habitual flame-baiters lose interest, leave and try to elicit attention on other lists. We are making steady, albeit currently slow, progress with our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). This is a series of *basic* introductions to the languages of the Lowlands. Please take a look at it, and consider volunteering to speed up the progress. Many thanks to those who have been participating. Some of you are already in 2003 while others are still in 2002. In any case, here is wishing us all the best for 2003, foremost peace, respect and compassion. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:14:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:14:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Identity" 2002.12.31 (01) [E] At 15:39 31/12/02, Harlan Ross May wrote: > The Act of 1695 by the English >Parliament established English schools, for the express purpose of finally >doing away with the "Irish" tongue as it was called. There were stiff >penalties for not teaching English, and continuing to use and allow the >"savage" language to be used. That is what the respected Scottish author, >Fitzroy MacLean wrote in his book, "Scotland". If the "Irish" tongue referred to is the Gaelic language in Scotland, then the passage above is incorrect whoever wrote it. The English parliament did not legislate for Scotland. Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:16:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:16:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.30 (03) [E/S] At 20:18 30/12/02, Chris Ferguson wrote: >But surely Colin -"come away ben" - is only used when inviting someone into >your house - at least that is how we would use it in Edinburgh. I don't know >of a more general Scots equivalent for welcome when used in the situation of >greeting people to an occasion - A'll hae tae awae an think on yon!! Personally, I'd see it as appropriate to invite someone _ben_ anywhere I was the host, in some way or other. The most obvious example is into ones own home, but I don't see it as being restricted to that. If I had the role of host, greeting people arriving somewhere for some form of hospitality, I'd feel that "come awa ben" was a natural thing to say to them. Still, I agree that it might not be right for every social occasion. Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:36:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:36:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (10) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: A guid New year tae yous aw Juist a wurd -tae wush yous aw a guid new year in aw airts o the Waurld - fae Edinburgh :-) ( Just a word - to wish you all a good new year in all parts of the world - from Edinburgh ) Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Thanks, Chris, an a guid new year tae ye an aw ... Ye're clean gilravagin, bendin the bicker an ithergates haein a grand Hogmanay yonder in bonnie Auld Reekie (Embro) the nou ... Juist 3.5 ours tae gae for yees in ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 20:43:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:43:30 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.12.31 (10) [E/S] Message-ID: Sorry. This got away too early. (No, I'm *not* celebrating.) RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: A guid New year tae yous aw Juist a wurd -tae wush yous aw a guid new year in aw airts o the Waurld - fae Edinburgh :-) ( Just a word - to wish you all a good new year in all parts of the world - from Edinburgh ) Chris Ferguson ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Holidays Thanks, Chris, an a guid new year tae ye an aw ... Ye're clean gilravagin, bendin the bicker an ithergates haein a grand Hogmanay yonder in bonnie Auld Reekie (Embro) the nou ... Juist 3.5 mair ours tae gae for yees in Britain, 11.5 mair for hus here on the Wast Coast o Americae. Just now someone joined us from Beckenham, Kent, England. Welcome, and Happy New Year! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Dec 31 22:16:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 14:16:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.DEC.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ntl Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.12.31 (09) [E] Whit aboot _ " yous are aw walcome here the nicht tae this Burns supper" ????? ( ye'll hae tae no mind ma spellin - A wisnae iver leant how tae write oor ain leid - juist skelp at the skool fir using it!!! ). Chris Ferguson ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . =======================================================================