LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.13 (01) [D/E]
Lowlands-L
sassisch at yahoo.com
Wed Feb 13 17:13:54 UTC 2002
======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 13.FEB.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================
From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"
> From: "Nigel Smith" <rnigelsmith at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Expressions
>
> I had interpreted Liza as 'telly' (Liza Minelli). Suppose it
> depends whether
> you pronounce Liza as [li:z@] (LEE-za) or [laIz@] (LIE-za) !
That makes more sense - I'd been wondering what "turning the
geezer over" meant, but if it means "telly" then it fits
perfectly.
> From: Andrys Onsman <Andrys.Onsman at CeLTS.monash.edu.au>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.12 (04) [E]
>
> In response to Sandy Fleming
>
> > Roger iron rusted - ???
>
> Rusted would be busted, I'd imagine, which would mean that Roger and
> iron somehow mean television. Roger could mean "jolly" but given the
> writer's preference for more colourful adjectives that seems unlikely.
> And I can't get telly from iron.
I thought perhaps "Roger iron" could mean "television aerial". "Iron"
could mean "aerial" in the same way as "claret" means "blood". Is there
a famous "Roger" whose second name rhymes with "telly" or something like
that? Is it "Roger Melly the Man on the Telly" in the British literary
magazine "Viz"?
Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
- C.W.Wade,
'The Adventures o McNab'
----------
From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.11 (02) [E]
> Ron wrote:
>
>> "Nitty gritty" or "nitty-gritty" means something like "the
>> (lengthy/mundane/boring) details."
<<<In Flemish we have the word "grèten(gritten)"= to scoff at . Another word
is "nete" meaning to be niggardly or to have a capricious nature.
>> According to my sources,
>> it is a relatively recent invention, probably from the 20th
>> century. As far as I know, it is used all over the English-
>> speaking world, probably spread thanks to modern media.
>> I wonder if its source can be found in Scots or in some
>> non-standard variety of English. Or might it be based on a
>> loan from another language?
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn
> Subject: Expressions
>
> There is "knick-knack" (also written "nick-nack").
<<<In Flemish we have "nick"= dislike, hate,aversion, peck. It is also
related with "hac (hacken) "=peck.
> However, apparently
> it is not the same sort of rhyming slang, though it has a rhyming
> pattern too. According to the Oxford Dictionary, it is based on "Low
> German" (i.e., Low Saxon, assumedly late medieval or post-medieval)
> onomatopoetic _knack_ 'sharp blow or sound', which is related to Modern
> Low Saxon _knacken_ ['knakN=] 'to break' (both transitive and
> non-transitive) and _Knacks_ [knaks] 'break', 'damage' (also used to
> denote a mental problem -- both of them used identically in Missingsch
> and other Northern German varieties). It is also supposed to be the
> origin of English "knack" (1) 'trick', 'habit', (2) 'faculty of doing
> something adroitly', (3) 'ingenious device', 'trinket' (archaic). Of
> course, the third and apparently oldest meaning (if this is true) is the
> origin of the word "knick-knack" 'sundry dainty articles'. (Yiddish
> still retains old _knak_ 'crack', 'snap', 'click'.) I am still somewhat
> dubious about the semantic shifts in this case.
>
> Another one is "riffraff" '(group of) disreputable or undesirable
> persons' (much like Low Saxon _(Lumpen-)Bagaasch_ [('lU.mpm=)bagQ:S]
> ("(rag) baggage"), _Packaasch_ ~ _Packenaasch_ [pake'nQ:S] ("baggage"),
> _Takeltüüg_ ['tQ:kl=ty:C] ("rigging stuff"), or _(Lumpen-)Pack_
> [('lU.mpm=)pak] ("pack of rags"), and like German _Pöbel_, _Gesindel_ or
> _Pack_). I had always assumed (without ever checking ...) that English
> "riffraff" was of Yiddish origin, because one Yiddish word for
> 'riffraff' is _erev-rav_, obviously of Hebrew origin, though I have
> never been able to figure out the etymology in Hebrew (something with
> 'evening'?). Apparently, according to a couple of dictionaries, I
> assumed wrongly. "Riffraff" is supposed to be a French loan, originally
> _rif et raf_,
<<Which comes from riffer(rifler) and raffer(rafler) meaning to scratch,
scrabe. And it is of germanic origin meaning to satch away or to rifle
In the dictionn.: Woordenboek der Nederlandse taal deel XII 1924, the author
quotes from the middledutch book (Bliscap van Maria) the sentence:A
saeltercomen, rijf en raf (=everybody,everything)
In the diction.:Middelnederlands boek (Verwijs en Verdam) 1907:
rif= uitschot, Nederduits: onkruid
Limburgs: raffel= menigte (E=crowd) In E we have rabble.
Flemish: rabbelen=raffelen = E: to speak confused or hasty
It exist also in Italian:ruffa-raffa, and Spanish: rifi-rafi
> though neither _rif_ nor _raf_ appear to be used in Modern
> French, at least not to my knowledge. So, the veil of mystery is not
> lifted totally, as far as I know.
>
<<Regards,
Luc Vanbrabant
----------
From: AEDUIN at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.12 (03) [E]
In a message dated 12/02/02 20:05:03 GMT Standard Time, sassisch at yahoo.com
writes:
Here in the University District of Seattle we have a pub-like establishment
with the derivative name "Lox, Stock and Bagel" (_lox_ 'European-style smoked
salmon' < Yiddish _loks_ [cf. German _Lachs_ 'salmon'], _
Reinhard
Do they serve pie and mash with liquor?
Regards
Edwin deady
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions
Luc (above):
> > "Riffraff" is supposed to be a French loan, originally
> > _rif et raf_,
> <<Which comes from riffer(rifler) and raffer(rafler) meaning to scratch,
> scrabe. And it is of germanic origin meaning to satch away or to rifle
> In the dictionn.: Woordenboek der Nederlandse taal deel XII 1924, the
> author
> quotes from the middledutch book (Bliscap van Maria) the sentence:A
> saeltercomen, rijf en raf (=everybody,everything)
> In the diction.:Middelnederlands boek (Verwijs en Verdam) 1907:
> rif= uitschot, Nederduits: onkruid
> Limburgs: raffel= menigte (E=crowd) In E we have rabble.
Aha! Like German _raffen_ 'to rake/scape' which nowadays mostly occurs in
prefixed forms: _zusammenraffen_ 'to rake/scrape together (e.g., money)',
_aufraffen_ 'to scrample', _sich aufraffen_ 'to get ready (to be on one's
way)', to get oneself together', _hinraffen_ 'to decimate', _dahinraffen_ 'to
decimate (gradually by disease)', _wegraffen_ 'to snatch away'. Low Saxon
(Low German) seems to have the cognates _rappen_ 'to rake/scape', 'to
tear/pull/pluck (off)', _sik uprappeln (~ oprappeln)_ ~ _sik berappeln_ 'to
get (back) up', 'to come to (= regain consciousness)', 'to get oneself
together'. I assume that German _berappen_ 'to fork out (money)' is a Low
Saxon loan, because it is not expected *_beraffen_, but I am not aware of such
a word in Modern Low Saxon.
(I do not think that Low Saxon _rappeln_ 'to talk fast/much', _rappelig_
'talkative', and _Rappel_ 'talkative mouth', 'craziness', 'tantrum', 'bee in
one's bonnet' are related to it.)
And English _raffle_, both in the sense of 'a type of lottery' and in the
sense of 'rubbish', 'sundry items', was derived from the Germanic-derived
French word _rafler_ 'to rake/scrable together'.
Edwin (above), responding to me:
> Here in the University District of Seattle we have a pub-like
> establishment
> with the derivative name "Lox, Stock and Bagel" (_lox_ 'European-style > smoked salmon' < Yiddish _loks_ [cf. German _Lachs_ 'salmon'], _
>
> Reinhard
>
> Do they serve pie and mash with liquor?
"Pubs" are now fashionable in some American circles, loosely based on English
and Irish pubs. Some are pretty close to the real thing (and I know an
Irish-style one that even imported from Ireland its impressive belle-epoch
furniture, fittings and decor as well as the beer and food recipes). Others
are overly loosely based on them and are called "pubs" mostly to signal that
they are not "bars" but feature food as much as drink, have restaurant-style
seating and booths, aim at a more congenial atmosphere and occasionally
feature live bands (usually of the "Celtic" type).
I'm afraid that meat pies have a hard time getting popular in this country,
though occasionally someone will try to sell English-, Cornish- or
Australian-style ones (and I've had a couple of the latter and found them to
be authentic). Also, steak-and-kidney pies are a hard sell because of the
kidney part.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
==================================END===================================
You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
as message text from the same account to
<listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
<http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
* Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================
More information about the LOWLANDS-L
mailing list