LL-L "Orthography" 2002.02.21 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" (was "Administrativa") 2002.02.20 (04) [E]

Andy Eagle wrote:

<Snip>
> I'll go along with Sandy on this one though I would like to comment on
> 'wyce' (Phonetics in Sampa)
>
> According to the CSD the adjective 'wise' is pronounced [w at is] hense the
> spelling 'wice'
> The Scots verb 'wise' on the other hand is pronounced [w at iz, waIz].
>
> Would the spelling 'wisins' not be better?

Ron Hahn wrote:

> But how is _wisins_ ~ _wycins_ pronounced?  *[w at isIns] or *[w at izIns]?  Are
> there any words in which intervocalic <s> is pronounced as [z]?  If so,
would
> not _wisins_, if pronounced *[w at isIns], be problematic?

I assume 'wycins/wisins' would be pronounced [w at izInz]
I can't think of any particular words in which intervocallic <s> is
pronounced as /z/. Scots traditionally didn't uise <z> for /z/ very often.
Many spellings with <z> often use <z> to represent the older yogh e.g.
senzie, cunzie, Menzies etc. (senyie, cunyie ar probably better spellings
now)
<s(e)> tended to be used for both /z/ and /s/. I can't think of any examples
of <c> for /z/.

I think the problematic spelling here is 'wice' though not uncommon in Scots
writing. Maybe it simply arose in order to indicate the difference in the
English an Scots pronunciations of 'wise'. I usually try to spell derived
forms using the root form i.e. what I think are termed morphological
spellings. So shoud it be 'wice + ins' or 'wise + ins'? The main assumption
being native speakers will know how to pronounce it right anyway.
Another consideration is can it be easily found in a dictionary like the
CSD? e.g. for wice it says see wise. Wyce isn't in the CSD at all. Though
even I often ignore my own advice and have used 'wice' because so many
others have.

Sandy Fleming wrote:

>You're right, this seems to follow the same verb -> adjective
>pattern as "lowze" -> "lowss", but in writing I tend to forget
>the difference.

I tend not to bother with the difference either and juist write 'lowse' and
assume native speakers know their own language.
The same argument can of course be used for wyce - wycins/ wice - wicins
though wycins/wicins looks strange to me smply because <c> is not usually
used for /z/.

>There doesn't seem to be any "wysins" form of the word listed
>in the SND - I added the "-ins" ending to create the plural
>noun form to correspond to "guidelines" in English, but I would
>imagine it naturally pronounced as ['w at izInz]. This goes against
>the SVLR but there are other nouns like that - the town names
>"Dysart" ['d at iz@r?] and "Fyvie" ['f at ivI] occur to me.

I was hoping you'd check the SND, I've certainly seen 'wisins' - however
spelled - in Scots literature.
There's also 'ruise' the verb has /z/ and the noun /s/ cf. 'uise' and
'uiss', 'close' verb. [klo:z] adj. & noun [klos]

>Perhaps we could take the analogy with "Dysart" and write it <wysins>?

or "risin" and write it <wisins>?

>Unless it all seems too much like creating an inkhorn term -
>but it's just adding a participial ending to a verb to get a
>noun, nothing unnatural.

There's nothing wrong with the word at all. It seems perfectly natrual to me
as well.

Andy Eagle

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