LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]

Ron assumed:

> It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
> the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
> also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
> /ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
> in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
> Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
> [?a:m].
>
> Thus Zeelandic:
> laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
> aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
> waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
> aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
> waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm

The spelling _ae_ stands for approximately the same
sound as in the English word 'hair' or the French
'populair' rather than the English Australian 'arm'
you mentioned.  It is closer to the e in Dutch 'kern'
than to the a in Aus. Engl. 'arm' anyhow.
This is the case for words where standard Dutch
has [a:] followed by an r. The spelling varies from
_ae_ or _ei_ to _ee_ (paerd, peerd, peird).

In other cases where Dutch has an [a:], Zeeuws
usually has about the same pronounciation
as described above, but in some areas (or in
some specific words outside these areas),
the '[a:]' as in the English word 'deer'. So that
sounds somewhat 'Frisian'. This is usually
spelled as _ea_ or _aè_

North Zeeland/isle of Zuid-Beveland/Dutch:
straete / streate / straat
staee / steae / staan
etc.

Regards,

Marco

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Marco.

Either I misunderstood you or you have missed my point.  I did *not*
assume that what in Zeelandic you write <aer> is the same sound as that
in Low Saxon (Low German) <ar>.  In fact, its exact pronunciation is
irrelevant to the discussion; relevant is only that you perceive it as
different.

What I am talking about is not phonetic script (which is to be used for
scientific purposes) but normal orthography based on phonemes (i.e.,
*underlying* phones, as opposed to phonologically produced allophones on
the phonetic surface).  My hypothesis was (and still is) that this
written <ae> before /r/ is really an allophone of the phoneme /a/; i.e.,
it is pronounced "colored" by the following /r/.  Unless you can show me
that *genuine* /ar/ (not /aar/) is pronounced differently, I keep
assuming that what you write as <aer> is underlyingly really /ar/ and
thus ought to be written <ar> in a truly phonemically based system.
Remember that I am not comparing Zeelandic with Dutch, that I have
merely observed what I believe to be a *systematic* parallel between
/ar/ in Zeelandic and /ar/ Low Saxon.

So, what you would need to show me to convince me is that and how
Zeelandic dialects treat the following phonemic sequences differently:

/är/*
/ar/
/aar/

(* your <aer>, could also be written /ær/, and could also be /aer/ if it
is a diphthong)

By the way, this /ar/ articulation appears to be generally misunderstood
in the Low-Saxon-speaking communities in the Netherlands, which is why
they tend to treat /a/ before /r/ as though it were a separate phoneme
and thus write it <aa><r> (e.g., <aarm>, as opposed to <ao><r> or
<oa><r> for /aar/, e.g., <baord>), likewise phonetically lengthened /a/
before /l/ and nasals; e.g., /al/ <aal> (instead of simply <al> for
[a.l]), /land/ <laand> (instead of simply <land> for [la.nt]).

Writing systems under development for languages so far without official
orthographies tend to be too complicated because the creators do not
(fully) understand the concept of "underlying" and "phoneme" and thus
tend to try to aim at writing "phonetically," which entails trying to
write perceived details that orthographically are redundant.  In my
opinion, this tends to be reinforced by obsessive reference to the
orthographic systems of the respective power languages.  Speakers of
Zeelandic, Low Saxon and Limburgish in the Dutch-dominated areas want to
create writing systems for their languages from a Dutch orthographic
reference point, trying to make Dutch speakers pronounce their languages
more or less correctly when they read them.  Likewise, speakers of Low
Saxon (Low German) and Limburgish in German-dominated areas want to
write their languages in such a way that German speakers can pronounce
them when they read them.  This entails the need to add detail that
would be redundant if the language and its orthography were thought of
as independent, as not beholden to and created for outsiders. (For
instance, an example of a pretty much independent system is that of
Catalan.  While it uses a "typically Romance" writing system, it does
not take Castilian (Spanish), French or Italian orthographies as its
reference points even though it is dominated by these languages.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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