LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (02) [E]

> From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Subject: Etymology
> David Elsmworth wrote:
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the equivalent german verbs.
> However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen are strong irregular
> verbs, fragen is in fact a weak
> verb, which is somewhat quite puzzling.
>
> I feel also why the past form of "fragen" is "frgte", but not "frug".
> But in old time, it should
> habe been "frug".  I am not a native speaker of German, and not a
> "Fachsprachwissenschaftler".  I
> think that language is cahnging every day. In some time, the form of
> "frug" was not used gradually
> and changed to "fragte". Can any one give your opinion or comment?
>
> Regards,
>
> Yasuji Waki
>
> Yasuji Waki
> E-mail: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Addr: 1-2-6-104, Midoridai, Funabashi,
> Chiba Pref. Japan
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Actually, German /fraag-/ _fragen_ 'to ask' is still both a weak and a
> strong verb, depending on one's dialect.  It is true that most people
> now use the preterite form _fragte_ (i.e., treat the verb as weak), but
> some speakers and writers, especially older ones, still can be observed
> to use _frug_ (i.e., treat the verb as strong).  I therefore believe it
> is fair to say that German /fraag-/ is in a late stage of transition to
> becoming a strong verb.
>
> Low Saxon (Low German) also has variation in /fraag-/ 'to ask' between
> strong (preterite _froog'_ [fro:UG] ~ _froog_ [fro.Ux] ~ _fröög'_
> [fr9:Ij] ~ _fröög_ [fr9.IC]) and weak (preterite _fraagte_ ~ _fraagde_
> ['frQ:xte] ~ ['fro:xte]), again depending on the dialect.  It would be
> interesting to find out if there, too, there is a shift toward the weak
> choice, and, if so, if this is because of the shift in ("High") German.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Actually, I lived in Palatia for five years, on the Rhine near
Ludwigshafen (roughly around Heidelberg). People there say "er frägt"
for "he asks", in analogy with "er schlägt" (he beats) and "er trägt"
(he carries). To a Northern German like me, however, that sounds
horribly wrong...

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Actually, Gabriele, I have heard some people say _er frägt_ [?Ea fre:ct]
in Hamburg Missingsch* as well.  One person I remember using that form
grew up in the northwestern part of Hamburg (Altona.  But in Hamburg you
never really know what kinds of language strata accumulations you are
dealing with, because people from all over Germany (and beyond) have
settled there (many of them would-be emigrants who did not make it onto
ships), and some families have their own substrata of their ancestral
non-local dialects.  (My own family would be a case in point, because
three of my grandparents were born and raised far away in the east, and
the fourth's mother came from Eastern Prussia from a town that iis now
on the Polish-Russian border.)

* "Missingsch" denotes German dialects based on Low Saxon (Low German)
  substrata ("German with Low Saxon interference," if you will).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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