LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.13 (06) [E/LS]

Tue May 14 04:45:17 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.MAY.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Being stubborn...*s*

Beste lieeglanners,

Thinking back about a word for "stubborn" (E) or "halsstarrig, koppig"
(D), I realize I forgot to mention our most used term here in Brabant :

"boekig" ~ bokkig (D)

which is to my knowledge the principal word that is used when referring
to obstinate people or animals...a buck being believed to have a very
independent, unchangeable mind of its own...
Thinking further about "animals" and their drivers, another group of
three words
came to mind :

1) balorig (D) : which is composed of "bal" an ancient word denoting
"bad" (E), slecht (D), plus "orig" a derivative of "oor" (="ear"
(E))...thus litterally meaning : having bad hearing skills, in a more
symbolic way : not being very receptive to listening...later on it
started meaning "slightly rebellious"

2) balsturig (D) : composed the same way, and meaning : "being difficult
to steer" (originally always in reference to animals used to pull carts
or ploughs or other vehicles)

3) balmondig (D), ("belmundech" or something like that in
"Mittelniederdeutsch") : this is a favourite word of mine *s*...as it is
still used in my own dialect for handicapped people. The word is pretty
old and is now no longer used in standard dutch. "mondig" however still
is, but most dutch people tend to think (falsely) it is a derivation of
"mond" (D), "mouth" (E). Truth is that "mondig" used to mean "having the
power to sustain oneself" "having power, capacities and capabilities"
during the Middle Ages. And a disabled person obviously lacks certain
abilities by definition (maybe substituting them with sharper or better
trained other skills...I can't judge this as I'm not medically trained).
Anyway, another word that is related to "mondig" (which I seem to
remember is etymologically related to Latin "manus" = "hand" (E), (D),
(G)) is "montboor" (D) > "momber" (D) > "moemmer", meaning "voogd"
(D)...is that "step dad" in English ?

Off the record, because "skating" on shallow water in winter was
mentioned in one of the previous posts, I'd like to add that we say
"schofferdijnen" instead of "skating"...sounding more like the
"schoeffeln" that I read here...Just a reflection of mine : could
"schaats" (D), "skate" (E) and the like, originate in former Frisia ???
Sort of a so called inguaeonism ?
I could be completely wrong though, because "a ski" which originally was
"gescheiden hout" (D) also has a family member in my dialect : "een
schaar aat" where "schaar" ~ "schei(d)" (D) means a long stretch of wood
that has been cloven from the main piece of wood...

Regards,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.12 (01) [D/E/LS]

Luc,

Might the "-ligeur" be derived (perhaps through some other avenue ie.
French
as you suggest below) from some form of Latin "ligare" meaning "to
bind",
from which we get English ligament, ligature etc.  The Modern French
form of
this word is "ligoter", meaning "to tie up" and fig. "to bind"

Randy Elzinga.
frisiancow at hotmail.com

Luc H. wrote:

5) against the thread, against-brush-like, is "tegenligeur"...an exotic
sounding word that I have never been able to find any related words
for...but, which sounds like being derived from french "rigeur"
???...sometimes another term is used "krewellig" (adverb), but with a
slightly different meaning : exclusively said of somebody who is not
feeling at ease, who is slightly nervous, not acting "smooth", and
always looking for a path (even illegal and obscure ones) in order to
achieve his/her goal anyway...in short : a tormented machiavellist avant
la lettre ? *s*

Also this : an ant is "ne mierezeiker" in Brabantish...again the
connotation with urine...

Bye for now !

Luc Hellinckx

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From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.11 (01) [E]

Hello all,

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote:

> (5) wedderdäänsch ['vEd3dE:nS] ("against-Danish",
> "anti-Danish"?
>     < wedder _against_, cf. German _wider_)
> 'stubborn', obstinate',
>     'pigheaded' (used only in Mecklenburg dialects;
> elsewhere
>     _wedderbö(r)stig_ "against-brush-like" or
> _opsternaatsch_ ~
>     _upsternaatsch_ < French _obstiné_,
> _obstiniâtre_, or < English
>     _obstinate_?)

We must have had quite a reputation there :-) I don't
know the historical details, but the expression rings
a bell insofar that I read a old Lowsaxon folk tale
from around the area, and it began like this:

"Vör Tieden sünd in Ratzborg de beiden Dämm vör't
Lünebörger un Langen brücker Door dar noch nich west.
Do hett de Stadt ganz op'n Insel legen un is'n stark
Festung west.
In dat Johr 1693 hett de König vun Dänemark de Stadt
mit Kanonen bescheten laten, un do sünd veel vun den
kugeln na den Doom rinschaten worrn. De sünd dar hüüt
noch in, un op een Stell sitt se tosamen as de Kegeln
in en Kegelspeel, blots dat de König fehlt.
To de Tied is (bi de Hannöverschen) in de Stadt en
Mann west, de hett bannig goot scheten kunnt; do
schick se hen na de Dänen un leet ehr seggen, wenn se
eenen harrn, de in negen Mal na'nanner en ganz
Kegelspeel na den Doom rinscheten kunn, denn wulln se
de Stadt övergeven un de Dänen rinlaten."
("Dat Kegelspeel in'n Ratzbörger Doom", in "Launbörger
Dönken" Quickborn-Verlag, Hamburg 1993)

Sounds like there could be some sort of historical
explanation for _wedderdäänsch_ - the story tells
about an unsuccessful attempt to overthrow the town,
so even thought the cannon balls in the wall might be
just a good story, sounds like there might have been
some (stubborn) attempts on trying to take the town?

Greetings, Lone Olesen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Luc:

> "boekig" ~ bokkig (D)

Low Saxon (LS) _bocksch_ ~ _bucksch_
German _bockig_
from _Bock_ ~ _Buck_ 'buck' (male sheep, goat or deer)

> 2) balsturig (D)

LS _ballstürig_

'Skates' are _Striedschoh_ ['stri:tSo.U] ("stride shoes") in most Low
Saxon (Low German) dialects.  In some (northwestern?) dialects it's
_Schöörken_.

Lone:

> We must have had quite a reputation there :-)

> Sounds like there could be some sort of historical
> explanation for _wedderdäänsch_

First of all, let me say that, whatever happened in the past, most North
Germans, especially the thinking type, not only have nothing against
Danes but in fact like and admire them and their country.  Belonging to
the post-war generation, I had lots of company in having a crush on
Denmark, and in Schleswig many "Germans," disgusted with their inherited
stigma, miraculously became members of the Danish minority virtually
overnight.  I spent a lot of time in Denmark and had 95% good
experiences (though in the 1960s I was refused service in restaurants
twice, despite my effort to speak Danish).

If there are any anti-Danish feelings, they must be very old, because
the North Saxon areas constantly got overrun by Danish "Vikings," and my
native Hamburg (the northernmost Christian bastion of Bishop Ansgar who
Christianized the northern "heathens") got sacked, plundered and burned
by them several times.  Not being one of them, I can't speak for the
people of Schleswig-Holstein that were intermittently under Danish rule
in a long tug-of-war between Germany and Denmark.  However, so far I
have not read any true anti-Danish texts, though I believe there must
have been some among pro-German factions.  For the most part, it seems
to me that most people were more or less loyal Danish citizens.
Remember that most people just cared about their immediate surroundings
and about which ruler was less oppressive, and Danes and Germans were
both strangers to most of them. The 20th-century partitioning to arrive
at today's border was not easy because the percentages of pro-Danish and
pro-German citizens were fairly close.

What puzzled me about this _wedderdäänsch_ was that it is a *negative*
state of being, i.e., that it sounds like Danish rule is good and ought
not be revolted against!

But wait! There's more! The plot thickens ...  I looked up
_wedderdäänsch_ in Renate Herrmann-Winter's _Plattdeutsch-hochdeutsches
Wörterbuch_ (for dialects of Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania).  She
writes that _wedderdäänsch_ comes from _wedder_ 'against' (German
_wider_) and _daun_ (i.e., _doon_) 'to do'!  (Remember that many Eastern
dialects tend to unround non-high vowels, e.g., _äver_ for _över_, hence
I suppose _doon_ > _dään..._.  Wait again!  That doesn't tally up.  Or
does it?  There should be a diphthong (_doon_ [do.Un] > *_deen_ [dE.In])
unless you take the past participial form _daan_ and umlaut it.  I'm
confused!

So, this "Danish" thing may have been my own misinterpretation.
Undskyld!  I wonder if others perceive it like that too, if perhaps this
is a case of "contamination."

Up elkeen Fall, leve Dänen, wi hebbt Ju leev!

Regards,
Reinhard

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