LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.05.14 (03) [E/S]

Tue May 14 20:01:10 UTC 2002

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject:

I'm from Southern England and have never heard of
'keek' - could it just be present in North English
dialects?
pps. could 'dunner' come from a Shetland/Orkney
varient of 'thunner', or would the latter be
pronounced 'tunner' there?

Gary

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language contacts"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language contacts
>
> Then there is Scots _keek_ 'to peep', apparently also known in British
> English (as a Scots loan, I suppose).  In Dutch you have _kijken_, and
> in Low Saxon _kieken_ ['ki:kN=], both meaning 'to look'.  Middle English
> had _kike_ (presumably pronounced ['ki:k@]).  The Oxford Dictionary only
> makes the reader compare this with Dutch _kijken_, does not say it is a
> loan.  However, apparently there is no Old English cognate.  What
> particularly intrigues me is that this word did not undergo the expected
> shift /ii/ > /ai/ (and Scots /ii/ > /@i/?), i.e., is not *_kike_ *[kaIk]
> but _keek_ [ki:k].  Might this mean that, if there were English and
> Scots cognates, _keek_ came to be reintroduced?  If so, and if it was
> Dutch, it would have been before Dutch underwent the ii > ij (/ii/ >
> /^I/) shift.  (When was that?).  Low Saxon, of course, never underwent
> this shift.

In Scots, of course, it's [kik], not [ki:k]. A long /ii/
before /k/ would be impossible in Scots (here's hoping no
one can think of any counterexamples!). The idea of it being
reintroduced from Dutch or Low Saxon at an early stage seems
perfectly feasible to me.

A well-known noun derived from this word is a "keeker", meaning
a black eye.

> crew' (feminine, pl. _Kruus_ [kru:s]), and _Trn_ [t9.3n] 'turn',
> 'trip', 'go' (masculine, pl. _Trns_ [t9.3ns]).  In some Low Saxon
> dialects of port cities and their surroundings, _Trn_, obviously
> introduced by seafarers, has come to denote any trip (not only on
> water), especially a short trip or an outing, in the sense of "going and
> returning," i.e., "roundtrip" ("making a turn").  Furthermore, it can

But something like this meaning also occurs in Scots: to "tak
a turn aboot the toun" means to make a brief tour of the town,
or, as in Marget Pow (Chapter XIV on ScotsteXt):

"Efter that we took a turn in the gairden, and saw the cabbages,
leeks, parsley, curly-greens, etc., growin' fine. [...] When we
had seen the house and the gairden we took a turn through the
village, and Mrs M'Curd pinted out the principal edifices, i.e.
the kirk, and the manse, and the pollis-office."

> also denote 'turn' as in "having a go," also '(work) shift'.  You may,
> for instance, say _Nu bst du an d'n Trn_ or _Nu kmmst du an d'n Trn_
> 'It's your turn now', alternatively with _Reeg'_ [rE.Ij] 'row', 'line',
> 'queue', _Nu bst du an de Reeg'_ (cf. German _Jetzt bist du an der
> Reihe_).  You might also ask, _Wenn hest du dien Trn_ 'Which (work)
> shift do you have?'

This isn't common usage in Scots as I know it - for a "turn"
in this sense the word would be "shot". For example, in playing
a game, you'd say "It's your shot", and to "take turns" would
be to "tak shots aboot".

On the other hand the Scots word for a work shift is just
"shift" as far as I know - "dayshift", "nichtshift" and
"backshift" ("backshift" being the evening shift).

To take things just off the top of my head the way Ron has done,
non-English Scots words that strike me as having an affinity with
Dutch or Lowland Saxon are:

ken       - "know"
clifty    - "skillful"
seek      - "ill"
ben       - "through in another room" (eg "Come on ben", or
                             "The knife's ben the scullery")

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language contacts

Sandy,

> On the other hand the Scots word for a work shift is just
> "shift" as far as I know - "dayshift", "nichtshift" and
> "backshift" ("backshift" being the evening shift).

In Low Saxon (Low German), as in German, the ordinary word for '(work)
shift' is _Schicht_ [SICt].  (It also means 'layer'.)  As I understand
it, _Törn_ in this and in other contexts tends to be confined to certain
dialects and sociolects, assumedly influenced by seafarers' jargon
(taking turns in doing certain chores, initially probably not
necessarily with exact time limits).  Thus, corresponding to your
examples above, you get _Dagschicht_, _Nachtschicht_ and _Laatschicht_
(German _Tag(es)schicht_, _Nachtschicht_ and _Spätschicht_
respectively).  Do you use _graveyard shift_ in Britain as in North
America?  It denotes a shift from about midnight till about 8:00 a.m.  I
have no idea what it is called in Low Saxon and German.  I have a
feeling it's _Nachtschicht_, as opposed to _Laatschicht_
(_Spätschicht_).  I believe there is a _Fröhschicht_ (_Frühschicht_
"early shift") as well, but I'm not sure.

> ken       - "know"

Low Saxon (/ken-/) _kennen_ 'to know', 'to be familiar with'
   (Unlike German _kennen_ 'to be familiar with' and _wissen_ 'to be
   knowledgeable about/aware of', Low Saxon _kennen_ and _weten_
   overlap semantically quite a bit.  For instance, you can say _Ik
   kenn 'n Mann_ or _Ik weet 'n Mann_ 'I know a man', while in German
   this can only be done in certain non-standard dialects.)

> clifty    - "skillful"

Low Saxon _kluftig_ ~ _klüftig_ ['klUftIC] ~ ['klYftIc] 'clever',
'sharp', 'quick on the uptake'
   (from _Kluft_ 'cleave', 'split' (from a sharp instrument?)?)
(= Dutch _kluchtig_ 'funny', 'droll' < _klucht_ 'farce'?)

> seek      - "ill"

Low Saxon _süük_ 'ill' [zy:k] (> _Süükdoom_ 'illness', cf. _Süük_
'illness',
   'epidemic'; cf. German _Seuche_ 'epidemic')
Dutch _ziek_

> ben       - "through in another room" (eg "Come on ben", or
                             "The knife's ben the scullery")

Low Saxon _binnen_ [bI.n:] 'inside', 'within'
Dutch _binnen_ [bIn@] 'inside', 'within'

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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