LL-L "Morphology" 2002.05.23 (03) [E/Z]

Fri May 24 00:42:25 UTC 2002

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.05.23 (02) [E]

Ron asked:

> Can these contraction actually stand alone, i.e., with the verb implied
> rather than mentioned, as in (2) below?
>
> (1)
> A: Ga jij naar de stad?
> B: Jaak ga (naar de stad).
>
> (2)
> A: Ga jij naar de stad?
> B: Jaak.

The way these forms are used (at least in Zeelandic)
are as you mentioned under (2) rather then under (1).
So these contractions can ONLY stand alone. The
form with the verb actually being mentioned in a
sentence, is never used. In such a case, there wouldn't
be a contraction, but two separate words:

(1)
B: Jae, 'k gae (naè Stad)

In general, the personal pronoun as a suffix with
 _jae_ and _neê_, is used to explicitly confirm or
deny something.
With _jaet_ or _jae't_ and _neênt_ or _neên't_,
the suffix -t ('it') refers to the whole question.

Some examples (in Zeelandic from Walcheren)
in which the contraction always stands alone and
the sentence between brackets is only put there
for clarity's sake:

a: Is 't geld van 't 'uus noe a gesturt?
b: Jae't. ('t Stoeng op 't afschriftje van deze weeke)

a: Gae jie mee nae de feêste?
b: Jae'k. (Ik dienke da'k wè tied è)

a: È me noe nog wat gewonne mee de lôterie of nie?
b: Jae'me. (Een kilo verse woste van de slachter op durp)

a: 'Ebbe 'k nog vee raore diengen gezeid toen a 'k gister
droenkig was?
b: Neê'je. ('t Viel nog a mee)

Regards,

Marco

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2002.05.23 (02) [E]

> Luc Vanbrabant wrote:
>
>> There is a very special particularity in Flemish about the  words' yes
>> 'and'no'. We decline those words!
>> Does this exist in other languages also?
>> Examples:
>>
>> Ga jij naar de stad? Jaak  (nink) (E=Yes I do, no I don't)
>> Gaat hij?  jaaj (Nij) (E= yes he does, no he doesn't)
>> Gaat zij?  jaas (nins) (E=yes sche does, no sche doesn't)
>> Gaan wij? Jaam, jaauw(nim, niw) (E= yes we do, no we don't)
>> Gaan jullie? Jaam,jaauw (nim,niw)
>> Gaan zij? Jaas (E = yes they do, no they don't)
>> Is het al laat? Jaat (nint) (E = yes it is, no it isn't)
>
> As one would expect, these forms are exactly the same
> in Zeeuws (_jae't_, _jae'k_, _jae'me_, etc.), although
> only _jae't_ and _neênt_ (and to a lesser extent _jae'k_
> and _neên'k_) are still very commonly used amongst
> old as well as young people. The other formsare
> becoming archaic. Or is that only on my own isle of
> Walcheren, where almost 50% of the population moved
> in from other parts of the Netherlands and the language
> is therefore changing towards Standard Dutch more
> rapidly than in other parts of Zeeland?
>
> Regards,
>
> Marco
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject Morphology
>
> Luc, Marco,
>
> Can these contraction actually stand alone, i.e., with the verb implied
> rather than mentioned, as in (2) below?
>
> (1)
> A: Ga jij naar de stad?
> B: Jaak ga (naar de stad).
>
> (2)
> A: Ga jij naar de stad?
> B: Jaak.

Hi Ron
Indeed it is in both ways used like this.
Number (1) nevertheless is slihtly different in it's pronounciation.
We would say
A: Ga'j naar de stad?
B: Ja'kga (which is  slightly different)

Hi Marco

Indeed Zeeus and Flemish are quiet the same language,but...
This year and last year I spend some weekendholidays in Zeeland. You
have
some very pleasant isles .
One day I went to the local bucher in Renesse and asked (without
thinking)
for 'drie schellen hespe'. The girl in the chop didn't understand it at
all.
Then I asked for 'drie schellen ham' It didn't work either. Only when I
asked her 'drie plakken ham' it was ok.
During my stay there I did not here Zeeuws, just common Dutch. Things
are
changing overthere.
Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks, Marco and Luc!

So, if I understood you correctly, your two language varieties (Marco =
Zeelandic, Luc = Flemish) represent two stages of cliticization
development (2 and 3 below):

(1) Ja, ik ga naar de stad.
    Jae, 'k gae (naè Stad) [Marco]

(2) Ja'kga. [Luc]

(3) Jae'k. [Marco]

I find (3) rather remarkable, certainly noteworthy.

Imagine that in a few hundred years time all or most of the language
varieties of the types (1) and (2) are extinct or have all moved to
stage (3), and atomic blasts have destroyed all written and electronic
data about the linguistic ancestors, and further imagine that some
linguists of that future time (speakers of, say, a future form of
Mandarin) stumble across the remainder variety (or varieties) (of type
(3)).  I am pretty sure that, in the absence of comparative data, they
would be convinced that this "discovered" language variety has
personalized forms of "yes" and "no."  Would that conclusion be valid?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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