LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.09.02 (03) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: "Daniel Prohaska" <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.09.01 (01) [E]

"Luc Hellinckx" luc.hellinckx at pandora.be wrote:
Subject: Morphology

Beste leeglanners,

Very interesting what Sandy wrote here (regarding the use of "thy" and
"thee") :

> This is _only_ used when speaking to young children or pets,
> don't try it on adults! You can see it in Burns's children's
> story at:
>
> http://scotstext.org/pages/resultspage.asp?text=1517&pagetype=text

We also have an example (only 1 example !) of where a language relict
(more
than 600 years old) is used but only when very young children are
addressed
: "biterkes" (litterally "bijterkes" ...for "teeth"). In every, every
other
single word (except "kijken" but that's a totally different story) a
dutch
"ij" is pronounced "aë".

I find it very much amazing that old language characteristics are being
transferred to young children because linguistic research in the
Netherlands
has often proved that usually women are much less prone to conservative
speech than men.

Any other examples of this weird effect ?

What's happening in women's brains when they are cherishing their babies
and using these very specific "nurse-idioms" ? It seems like a return to
some "primeval state", so to speak *s*. Which probably changes later on
when a child is growing up ?

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

Dear Luc,

I agree with Ron here. I don`t think (at least in the case of dialectal
English and Scots - don`t know about Dutch) it`s a case of nursing
language.
It´s more superior/inferior think. When I initially mentioned my
grandfather
note that I was a child at the time. He would also use the "tha" form
with
other children. I can`t recall pets, but I remember I would use "tha"
when
swearing. "Tha bluddy bastard, I`ll twat thi". Which of course means
that
the object form "thi" (short "i") survived in Lancashire.

There are report as early as the 16th century in London that people
resented
being addressed by "thou". Even people of low social standing. Which
explains why "thou" was gradually ousted by the "polite" form. In those
areas where "thou" survived, usually more remote from the inovative
influence of capital city speech, the development is the same, however
slower. The fact that "tha" in Lancashire, and to my knowledge in
Yorkshire
as well, is only used with children, pets, and when swearing, shows this
status difference induced use.

My impression is in my mother`s generation the "tha" form is only used
when
quoting the elders, or when expressing something very quaint. And I`ve
not
heard it being used among people of my generation, not even in`t county
side.

I have heard it in male-to-male talk among speakers of the generation
born
between 1950-1970 ("oalder than mi mumm, butt a bit yunngger than
misen").
Not among women. So Luc, there is a "sex-thing" here, but it appears to
be
the males who are more conservative than the females.

Daniel

----------

From: "Daniel Prohaska" <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.09.01 (01) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Just stumbled across a bit of Lancashire dialect poetry by Sam Fitton
(1868-1923) and I found this (excerpt from his poem "Love Sick")

                        ......
                        ......
                        "Well, well!" said her mother, "Tha`s getten
it                         bad;
                        Tha likes him a lot, I con tell;
                        I courted thi feyther when he wer` a lad,
                        I`ve bin a bit crazy misel`.
                        Tha`rt owd enough neaw to be shappin` thi ways,
                        Well, then, if tha thinks tha con better thi
days,
                        Say "aye", an` be handy my lass!

And I found another interesting pronoun in the same author`s poem "Awr
Sarah`s Getten a Chap". It the 3rd pers. sg. fem. Subject form "hoo"
(st.E:
"she"). I have not conciously heard it being used in and around
Manchester
in the past 15 years.

                        ...........
                        ...........
                        Hoo`s wantin` this, an`wantin` that
                        Hoo thinks we`re made o` brass
                        Hoo goes to t` factory in `er hat;
                        Hoo says ut`s moar class;
                        Hoo`s bucked mi feyther up shzheaw, ("anyhow,
anyway")
                        He darno` wear a cap;
                        He gets his bacco chepper neaw
                        Eawr Sarah`s getten a chap.
                        ...........
                        ...........

Daniel

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