LL-L "Phonology" 2003.08.04 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net <Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.08.03 (02) [E]

Many English dialects also pronounce <wh> and <w> differently, including the
conservative RP of the Queen on her Christmas broadcast.  In Ireland, there
seems to be an east-west divide, with Belfast and Dublin generally having
conflated the two sounds, but generally more rural areas to the west
retaining
it.  Interestingly, I was told that middle-class grammar school pupils in
north Down would be corrected if they pronounced <wh> as [w].  From
cinematic
observation, the sound also seems present in the southern United States and
western Canada (I couldn't speak about other regions of North America, but I
suspect those aren't the only places where it has survived).

<wh> became [f] in those north-eastern areas of Scotland which were on the
Gaelic/Scots border in the middle ages.  In Modern Irish there is the word
"fuisce", which is a loan from Scots "whisky", itself a loan from "uisce
beatha"/"uisge beatha" in the Irish and Scottish varieties of Gaelic
respectively.
There is also a bilabial form attested in dialogue in Hiberno-English
literature, where "what" is sometimes spelt "phwat".

It is certainly true that some foreigners hear [f] when <wh> is said by
Scots and might repeat it, but since that from is also present in the
north-east,
I don't think it's a problem.

Sadly, the <wh> sound is now beginning to weaken in Scotland itself, with
the change, in the west at least, apparently being led by the working class.
Along with the likes of the rhotic <r>, the [x] sound and Scottish vowel
length, it represents one of the last phonological vistages of the Scots
language
in the speech of many of the younger generation.  Soon it might be possible
to imagine the north Down reaction in some of Glasgow's leafier suburbs.

--
All the best,

Gavin

Gavin Falconer

Belfast: 02890 657935
Dublin: 00353 (0)1 831 9089
Work: 00353 (0)1 618 3386
Mobile: 0779 173 0627
Fax:  001 954 301 7991

"Wovon man nicht reden kann, darüber muss man
schweigen."

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From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Phonology

Ron wrote (about Dutch /r/):

> I noticed that native Dutch speakers Brussels tend to use a strong,
> French-like [R].
> Their dialect(s) can be classified as Brabantish, can't it?

Yes, I think they can.

> However, once in a while I try to pronounce
> it with [R], which also works very well for me, except after <sch>, as
> in <schrijven>. I find it almost impossible to separate the <ch> [x]
from
> the <r> [R].  My main question in this section: *Are* the two truly
> separate when they are adjacent to each other, and if so, how?

I guess not. If you use [r], then /schr/ would simply sound like
[s][x][r],
but if you pronounce /r/ as [R], then it could sound like [s][R]... I have
especially noticed the latter in Brabantish speech.

Notice also, that the [R] can almost sound like [x] in some cases, eg:
haar -> haag
grap -> ggap
bert -> begt

In general, by the way, the /r/ is probably pronounced about 10 different
ways, sometimes the pronounciation can vary per person per word. But, Ron,
if
you are learning Dutch, I would stick to [R], that one is probably most
common. Just don't use it too 'strong' :-)

For more information on /r/, see
<www.vanoostendorp.nl/linguist/dialectendag2000.html> (search for
'uitspraak')

regards,
Mathieu

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks for your input (above), Gavin and Mathieu.

Mathieu:

> > However, once in a while I try to pronounce
> > it with [R], which also works very well for me, except after <sch>, as
> > in <schrijven>. I find it almost impossible to separate the <ch> [x]
> from
> > the <r> [R].  My main question in this section: *Are* the two truly
> > separate when they are adjacent to each other, and if so, how?
>
> I guess not. If you use [r], then /schr/ would simply sound like
> [s][x][r],
> but if you pronounce /r/ as [R], then it could sound like [s][R]... I have
> especially noticed the latter in Brabantish speech.

Ah, that makes sense!  I think it is impossible to say [xR] within the same
syllable.  It is possible in separate syllables, such as in German
_Kochrezept_ 'cooking recipe'.

Sorry about two typos in my previous postings:

>   I suspect this to
>  be the case, because those English dialects that pronounce /w/ other than
as
>  [w] tend to pronounce it as something like [hw] or [xw] or some sort of
>  “aspirated /w/” (if there is such a thing).

That was supposed to be "... pronounce <wh> other than as  [w] ..."

> Rapanui = Eastern Islands)

... was supposed to be "Rapanui = Easter Islands)"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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