LL-L "Phonology" 2003.08.04 (06) [E]

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.08.04 (01) [E]

> From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
> Subject: Phonology
> I guess not. If you use [r], then /schr/ would simply sound like
[s][x][r], but if you pronounce /r/ as [R], then it could sound like
[s][R]... I have especially noticed the latter in Brabantish speech.

I'm not aware of having the ch lost between s and R in "Belgian
Brabantisch".
Omitting the ch here sounds rather "Flemish" to me.

Regards,

Roger

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Phonology

Beste Ron,

Just this...I don't know in which Malayic language "bangka" is used for
"boat" (re
world language reconstruction), but I do know "barco" means "boat" in both
Spanish and
Portuguese, so maybe "bangka" is a loanword?
"r" has always proved to be extremely difficult to pronounce for East-Asians
(especially the apical [r]), so substituting it with a local, much-fancied
nasal "ng"
seems quite logical to me.
If you would like to know more about the change from [r] to [R] in Europe,
the
following link is very interesting:

http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/11/11-2186.html

The bulk of continental Europe (minus pockets of southern German speakers)
was using
[r] before Parisian [R] became fashionable.

On the other hand, I must say that it seems a little strange that seafaring
folks,
like many of the Malayic speaking people are, would replace the name of such
an
important item by a foreign word. Or maybe, those Iberian boats were
considered so
outrageous that definitely a new word was needed...dunno *s*

Kind greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Roger and Luc!

Roger, thanks also for the files you sent me privately.  I will get to them
and get back to you as soon as possible, am a little under the weather and
running only at ca. 50% steam at the moment.

Luc:

> Just this...I don't know in which Malayic language "bangka" is used for
"boat" (re
> world language reconstruction), but I do know "barco" means "boat" in both
Spanish and
> Portuguese, so maybe "bangka" is a loanword?

Of course, this is always a possibility, especially since the Phillippines
used to be a Spanish colony.  It might be a possibility in very early
loanwords, namely those borrowed before a regular phonological conversion
system came into place.  However, I seriously doubt it.  _Bangka_ usually
denotes a small boat or a native-type canoe, or 'seagoing vessel'
generically, not a foreign type of boat (such as Spanish _vapor_ > Tagalog,
Cebuano _bapor_ '(steam)ship').  Besides, it is wide-spread in the Malayic
languages of the Philippines:

Tagalo - Cebuano - Hiligaynon - Kapampangan
bangka - bangka - bangka - bangka

Cebuano has _barka_ (< Spanish _barca_) as well, but I do not know if it is
considered a variant of _bangka_.

I wonder if Malay _bangkai_ 'carcase' is related to it.

> "r" has always proved to be extremely difficult to pronounce for
East-Asians
> (especially the apical [r]), so substituting it with a local, much-fancied
nasal "ng"
> seems quite logical to me.

This does not apply to Southeastern Asia.  Pretty much all languages in that
region (except Vietnamese), irrespective of genealogical affiliation, have
apical /r/, which is clearly and strongly pronounced and in most cases
clearly distinguished from /l/ (though in Burmese /r/ and /y/ tend to be
treated alike).  This is most definitely true of the languages of Malaysia,
the Indonesian islands, the Philippine islands (predominant grouping:
Austronesian / Malayo-Polynesian / Western Malayo-Polynesian), and Taiwan
(predominant grouping: Austronesian / Formosan / Paiwanic).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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