LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.21 (03) [E/LS]

Fri Feb 21 17:52:46 UTC 2003

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.FEB.2003 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8
 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
 Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
 Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or
 sign off at <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Elsie Zinsser <ezinsser at simpross.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.20 (12) [E]

Haai almal,

CriostÃ³ir wrote to Ian: "That is because, no matter how much you get red in
the face over it, existence in a dictionary is not the same as accepted
usage. Alternatives that exist only in dictionaries are dead in
the water."

I wholeheartedly agree with this, especially in terms of Afrikaans which is
a language in flux. In the dictionary does not mean on the tongue. Certain
words that I used as a teenager are unfamiliar to my mid-twenties daughters,
and words that my father grew up with are unfamiliar to me.

Groete,
Elsie Zinsser

----------

From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Criostoir,

Well, the other Lowlanders will have made up their
minds who is enforcing their own preference - I would
mark neither _judgement_ nor _judgment_ wrong, and I
have never had the latter marked wrong in my
manuscripts. I am also a qualified editor - the very
basis of which is that conventions are established
first by the publisher's own choices, and if these do
not exist by established dictionaries (notably the
Oxford). To do otherwise would be to enforce your own
preference, which no individual has the right to do
without showing sources and clear evidence.

However, I would guess also that our fellow Lowlanders
are getting bored by this particular circle - my
evidence for this being their failure to enter this
particular thread!

The 'CENTER' signs I saw in Galway and Sligo in 1996,
they seemed to be on a print form which was only used
for a few years. And I would say you're probably right
that they were down as much to the preference of that
one signmaker or author - there may well not have been
any 'official' decision as such.

I also saw both 'Centre' and 'Center' in quick
succession in Vancouver, British Columbia in 2001. The
latter was on a temporary detour sign. So my guess is
- but our Canadian and Pacific Northwest
correspondents will know better - that the natural
Canadian tendency is to go with the American spelling
(that they're probably more used to doing) hence the
temporary 'Center', but that the official form in
Canada is the British (and, just as importantly
perhaps, French) 'Centre'.

Hopefully that swings us round to more inclusive
thread!

Beannachtaí,

=====
------------------
Ian James Parsley
www.ianjamesparsley.net
+44 (0)77 2095 1736
JOY - "Jesus, Others, You"

----------

From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.20 (03) [E]

Ian wrote: "If you disagree with what I am
claiming is an indisputable fact (and I have no doubt
I have the agreement of the entire list apart from
you), the challenge is for you to produce sources for
your contention that there are no variations at all..."

Ian, this is no place to spit the dummy :) My entire contention is that
variations in Non US-English may exist *in theory*, but they do not exist
*in fact*. You argue that because such alternatives exist *in theory* (in
dictionaries, specifically), that proves that they exist *in fact*. You are
choosing to warp the argument by demanding that I go to exhaustive lengths
to "prove" my contentions when of course because my contentions on based on
the fact (there's that word again) that English is a convention-based rather
than prescription-based language (i.e., there is no English-language
equivalent of the definitive Academie francaise), and conventions are
notoriously difficult to "prove", because there's always someone like
yourself who insists that they do things differently.

The best "proof" I can offer you - no smoking guns here either, I'm afraid -
is that if you attempted to use "judgment" "queuing" or any of the other
versions we have been arguing over in a letter to one of your famed "London
broadsheets", or in manuscript to a publisher or in an essay or thesis, you
would be *automatically corrected*. That is because, no matter how much you
get red in the face over it, existence in a dictionary is not the same as
accepted usage. Alternatives that exist only in dictionaries are dead in the
water.

"Irish English is of course a whole other story. The
boys putting up the roadsigns even decided on 'CENTER'
a few years ago, although more recent signs have
switched back to 'CENTRE'. Canadian correspondents
will no doubt have their own stories on that issue!"

Where was this? I haven't seen it anywhere in Ireland. Perhaps it was a
momentary glitch that was later removed? The only controversy over roadsigns
in Ireland I've heard of in the last five years was the notorious re-signing
of Dublin, where CENTRE and CENTER were both eschewed in favour of AN LÁR.
This was soon replaced.

And by the way: "(and I have no doubt
I have the agreement of the entire list apart from
you)" You should always wait until the "entire list" has entered its
opinions before you make such presumptions. :) Just to prevent potential
future embarrassment. :)

Go raibh maith agat aris mo chara

Criostóir.

----------

From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.20 (03) [E]

Ian wrote:
>
>Of course writers should be consistent. If you write
>'realize' you should write 'civilize', if you write
>'realise' you should write 'civilise'.
>
It depends what you mean by consistent. What about 'analyze' which seems to
be the accepted American form, presumably by analogy with 'civilize' etc.
But, whereas the '-ize' endings of words like 'civilize' is justified
ultimately by the Greek ending '-izein', 'analyse' comes from Greek
'analusis', which has an 's'. This then raises the question of whether
consistency should be analogical or etymological. Multiply this problem by
several degrees of magnitude and you have the beginning of the Scots
spelling problem.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

----------

From: Klaus-Werner Kahl <kwkahl at bnet-ibb.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.20 (10) [LS]

Laiwe Lowlanders,

Platdüütsk of Sask schriëwen wät üöweral änners un viële Lüde schriewt et
so, äs se et häöert. Miärsttiets wät vösocht haugdüütske Schriewwisen to
üöwerdriägen, aower dat gait faken in´ne Büks! In mien Book "Wörterbuch des
Münsterländer Platt" häb ik twiälw Üörders to´t Schriwen fastlägt un in mien
Book düörgaoens bruukt. Uutnaomen, äs in´t Haugdüütske, sint nich naidig!
Auk up mine Riäkersite www.plattdeutsch.net, wao de Schriewwise naotokiken
is, häb ik dat auk daon. In de Tüskentiet intresseert sik aal iälke Lüde an
mine Schriewwise un häbt se üöwernuomen. Lesten Maond, in´n Januar, häb ik
de Schriewwise achtain Lüde bibragt. De naigste Scholung wät et in dän Mäten
giëwen. Wisse löt sik de Schriewwise auk för dat Twentske Plat bruken.
Probeeert et äs uut!

Gutgaon! Alles Gute! All the Best!

Klaus-Werner Kahl

www.plattdeutsch.net

----------

From: Peter Meylof <p.meylof at planet.nl>
Subject: Pronouns

Moi Reinhard/Ron,

Dank die veur oewn oetleg. Ik kan nen bult van oe leern. Ik bin blied
dat ik ene tröfn heb met sonne grootn kennis van 't Nedersaksisch. Dat
wol ik moar effen kwiet.

Ie mut weetn, hier in Twenthe bint se d'r ok nog nit oet. So
langsamerhaand kump d'r noe toch wat gangs in, en bint se nen kleen
stapke dichterbie ne 'algemene' skriefwieze. De besteet al nen tiedje
nen Twentsch Woordnboek. Wellicht weet ie a van it bestoan van dat book
of. Ik mut oe bekenn dat ik em nog nit heb, doarveur mut mie de knippe
met stoevers wat luder klinkn ak de met skudde. Effen deurspoarn.
Noar disse en ginne mening, doot se in dat woordnbook toch tevöl
concessies op it Nedderlaands an. Dat sal aaltied ne stryd bliewn.

Ik sal oe verteln da'k somtieds toch wa nen betje met nen krang oog noar
de Freysen kiek. Deej traditie van it skreewn woord hoald se a nen
tiedje in ere. Se bint oons doarop veur.

Toch heb ik d'r wa vertrouwn in, dat wie laoglaanders d'r wat
skriefwieze angeet, ooit nog wa oetkomt. Tot an die tied, loaw van
mekoar leern. Hoe meer as wie met mekoar snakt en skrieft, des te
vlotter sonne 'Standaard Skriefwieze' d'r komp. Duurt ne paar joar, moar
dan hei ok wat hè!

Veurdat ik it ferget: Aj tied en wille hebt, sol ik it seer waardeern aj
mie so af en too in de twee skriefwiezen dee ie machtig bint wilt
antwoordn. Ik wil mie geern nen betje verdeepn in die twee styln.

Reinhard/Ron, doot hênig (kalm) an en avast donders bedankt veur de meuite.

Goodgoan,

Peter

PS Ik wil deej aandere 'Tukkers' geern oetneudigen nen betje met oons
met te proatn. Loat van oe heurn!!!

----------

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:
Subject: Orthography

Moin, Peter!

“Nedderlandsche schrievwiez’:

Boavn kaanst sein, wou oes Klaus-Werner schrivt.  Zien schrievwiez’ is ’n
“Pruussche”, oen zien dialekt is ’n Westfoalschn.  Ik gluiv’, dei Twentschn
dialektn (oen zachs ook dei Drenthschn) huirt mit tou dei Westfoalsche groep
tou, ofschoonst dei dialektn oep dei Nedderlaandsche zied “verhollaandscht”
un dei oep dei Duutsche zied “verduutscht” worn zund.  Dei dialektn voen
Grönnen (Groningen) oen Achterhöök (Achterhoek) huirt mit tou dei
Noordsassische groep, tou dei unnergroep voen dialektn mit Vreissche
zoebstroatn, tou dei ook dei dialektn voen ’t Eemslaand, voen ’t Oolnborger
Laand oen voen Oostvreislaand mit touhuirt.  Joa, oep dei ein zied hebt zei
meir Hollaandsche invluidn oen oep dei aannere zied meir Duutsche invluiden.
Liekers wuird’ dat mit ’t verstoan voen schrevene tekstn beter goan, wen wie
ein enkelde schrievwiez’ haarn.

“Düütsche” Schievwies’:

Baven kannst sehn, wo us Klaus-Werner schrifft.  Sien Schrievwies’ is ’n
“Prüüßsche”, un sien Dialekt is ’n westfaalschen.  Ik glööv’, de twentschen
Dialekten (un sachs ook de drenthschen) höört mit to de westfaalsche Grupp
to, ofschoonst de Dialekten up de nedderlandsche Sied “verhollandscht” un de
up de düütsche Sied “verdüütscht” worren sünd.  De Dialekten vun Grönnen
(Groningen) un Achterhoek höört mit to de noordsassische Grupp, to de
Ünnergrupp vun Dialekten mit freessche Substraten, to de ook de Dialekten
vun ’t Emsland, vun ’t Ollenborger Land un voen Oostfreesland mit tohöört.
Ja, up de een Sied hebbt se mehr hollandsche Inflöden un up de annere Sied
mehr düütsche Inflöden.  Liekers wöörd’ dat mit ’t Verstahn vun schrävene
Texten bäter gahn, wenn wi een enkelte Schrievwies’ harrn.

“Leiglandsche” schriivwiis’:

Baven kanst sein, wou us Klaus-Werner schrivt.  Siin schriivwiis’ is ’n
“Pruyssche”, un siin dialekt is ’n Westfaalschen.  Ik gloyv’, dei Twentschen
dialekten (un sachs ook dei Drenthschen) hoyrt mit tou dei Westfaalsche grup
tou, ofschoonst dei dialekten up dei Nedderlandsche siid “verhollandschd” un
dei up dei Duytsche siid “verduytschd” worden suend.  Dei dialekten fun
Groennen (Groningen) un Achterhoyk (Achterhoek) hoyrt mit tou dei
Noordsassische grup, tou dei uenner-grup fun dialekten mit Freissche
substraten, tou dei ook dei dialekten fun ’t Emsland, fun ’t Ollenborger
Land un fun Oost-Freesland mit tou-hoyrt.  Jaa, up dei ein siid hebt sei
meir Hollandsche in-floyden un up dei annere siid meir Duytsche in-floyden.
Likers woyrd’ dat mit ’t verstaan fun schrevene teksten beter gaan, wen wii
ein enkelde schriivwiis’ harren.

“Ney-Hanseaatsche” schrievwies’:

Baven kanst seyn, wou us Klaus-Werner schrift.  Sien schrievwies’ is ’n
“Prüüssche”, un sien dialekt is ’n Westvaalschen.  Ik glöyv’, dey Twentschen
dialekten (un sachs ook dey Drenthschen) höyrt mit tou dey Westvaalsche grup
tou, ofschoonst dey dialekten up dey Nedderlandsche sied “verhollandschd” un
dey up dey Düytsche sied “verduytschd” worren suend.  Dey dialekten vun
Grönnen (Groningen) un Achterhöyk (Achterhoek) höyrt mit tou dey
Noordsassische grup, tou dey uennergrup vun dialekten mit Vreyssch
substraat, tou dey ook dey dialekten vun ’t Emsland, vun ’t Ollenborger Land
un vun Oostvreysland mit touhöyrt.  Ja, up dey eyn sied hebt sey meyr
Hollandsche invlöyden un up dey annere sied meyr Düytsche invlöyden.  Likers
wöyrd’ dat mit ’t verstaan vun schrevene teksten beter gaan, wen wie eyn
enkelde schrievwies’ harren.

Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:

’n poar Twentsche schoakels:

http://www.lowlands-l.net/newindex.htm?http://www.lowlands-l.net/offline_lsm
odern.htm

http://www.streekboeken.nl/sub_rubriek.asp?rub=1&subrub=1

http://httpd.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/ns_boeken.htm

http://members.home.nl/goaitsen/twents/toek.htm

http://www.onzetaal.nl/tijdschr/inzicht/i0112.html

Bouk:

Grammatica van Twents: woarin opnomn de universele skriefwieze van n kreenk
vuur de Twentse sproak. Velde, J. B. van der. Enschede: Van de Berg, 1994.
ISBN: 9055120286.

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================