LL-L "Classification" 2003.01.06 (04) [E/German]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Daniel Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Classification" 2003.01.05 (15) [E]

Dear Ron,

Your last posting reminded me that I didn´t answer your question
pertaining the classification of the Germanic languages you asked one or
two weeks ago.  You asked something along the lines whether I would
place Yiddish and Standard German (as well as the upper- and
central-German dialects9 in a separate South Germanic Group. Well, maybe
I`m a little conservative here (too bad Harland Ross May isn`t among us
anymore :)), but to warrant this sub-branch of Germanic as opposed to
North-Germanic (Scandinavian), East-Germanic (Gothic, etc.) and West
Germanic (E, S, F, LG, D, Z, etc.) I think is going to far. Your
South-Germanic and the other West-Germanic languages have a period of
common development AFTER the separation of East-Germanic first and then
North-Germanic.

The decisive criterium for a South Germanic language would be the full,
or partial undergoing of the 2nd Germanic sound shift, which is actually
dated to be quite late, long after the afore mentioned separation.

The other "mystery" dialect in the South-Germanic branch would be
Lombardic, which is only preserved in names and fragments. Though this
seems to have undergone partial 2nd shift (though differently from the
Central german dialects). I suppose a central area for the 2nd shift in
High Alemanic and South Bavarian (larger area than today), phasing out
to the North and South, i.e. Rhine-franconian, Palatinate, Hessian,
Upper Saxon, Thuringian in the
North and Lombardic in the South.

I believe the general classification of Germanic to hold with teh
West-Germanic branch to be devided into three sub-branches.

Dan

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Classification

Hi, Dan!

> Your
> South-Germanic and the other West-Germanic languages have a period of
> common development AFTER the separation of East-Germanic first and then
> North-Germanic.

Actually, it isn't *my* "South Germanic."  I have been merely curious about
it and have been flirting with it.  It has been proposed by a minority of
authors,* and I felt I needed some opinions of people whom I regard as
knowing what they are talking about.  (Consider yourself "honored," not
flattered. :) )  Among these proponents is Ernst Schwarz (_Goten,
Nordgermanen, Angelsachsen: Studien zur Ausgliederung der germanischen
Sprachen_, Berne: Francke, 1951), whose hypothesis, however, is consistent
with "yours" in that he groups Scandinavian (traditionally "North Germanic")
and Gothic (traditionally "East Germanic") as "North Germanic" and the rest
as "South Germanic," thus does not divide up what most consider West
Germanic and he refers to as "South Germanic."  I am under the impression
that the term "South Germanic" tends to be bandied about mostly in cultural
anthropology, especially in mythology studies, and that in such contexts it
may be serving merely as a geographic term.

Anyway, thank you very much for sharing your view, Dan.  It's much
appreciated, as always.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

* consider e.g. ...

<quote>
südgermanisch/South Germanic (für das bairisch-alamannische Gebiet im 6./7.
Jh.)
</quote>
http://www.runenprojekt.uni-kiel.de/beschreibung/4/default.htm

<quote>
Vordeutsche Sprachstufen
Elbgermanisch, Indogermanisch, Mittelgermanisch, Nordgermanisch,
Nordseegermanisch, Ostgermanisch, Rhein-Weser-Germanisch, Südgermanisch,
Westgermanisch, Urgermanisch/Gemeingermanisch
</quote>
http://www.germanistik.uni-halle.de/ab_ag_grund.htm

<quote>
Südgermanisch
In den oberdeutschen Inschriften zeigen sich die ersten Spuren der
hochdeutschen Lautverschiebung, z. B. auf dem Speerblatt von Wurmlingen
(Kreis Tuttlingen, Anfang des 7. Jahrhunderts). Die Funde sind in das 5. bis
7. Jahrhundert zu datieren und liegen im Stammesbereich der Sachsen,
Franken, Thüringer, Alemannen und Langobarden. Die Inschriften sind kurz,
zum Teil nur aus einem Namen bestehend. Es wird noch das überlieferte
24-Zeichen-Inventar mit einigen graphischen Varianten verwendet.
</quote>
http://www.aranilia.de/runen.htm

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